Why no parachutes in the Orion AA2 abort test?Did Orion do a pad abort test? A live fire abort test?Why is SpaceX testing Pad Abort at LC-40 (CCAFS) but Max-Q abort at Vandenberg?Did Orion do a pad abort test? A live fire abort test?Orion Heat ShieldWhy will SpaceX do Pad Abort test from a truss, not a real first and second stage?How has the Dragon v2 been tested before its launch pad abort test?Why does SpaceX have a launch window for a pad abort test?Why is the SpaceX Pad Abort test starting at ground level?What Dragon was used in May 2015 Pad Abort test?Does the Mars2020 lander need a new parachute design?What is SpaceX's parachute problem that NASA is concerned about in the NASA ASAP report?

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Why no parachutes in the Orion AA2 abort test?


Did Orion do a pad abort test? A live fire abort test?Why is SpaceX testing Pad Abort at LC-40 (CCAFS) but Max-Q abort at Vandenberg?Did Orion do a pad abort test? A live fire abort test?Orion Heat ShieldWhy will SpaceX do Pad Abort test from a truss, not a real first and second stage?How has the Dragon v2 been tested before its launch pad abort test?Why does SpaceX have a launch window for a pad abort test?Why is the SpaceX Pad Abort test starting at ground level?What Dragon was used in May 2015 Pad Abort test?Does the Mars2020 lander need a new parachute design?What is SpaceX's parachute problem that NASA is concerned about in the NASA ASAP report?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








7












$begingroup$


On July 2, 2019, the Ascent Abort 2 test of the Orion spacecraft was performed, with the Orion command module ascending on a solid rocket booster, then firing its launch escape system to safely separate it from the booster.



One of the announcers in the video states at 1:47 that the spacecraft is not parachute-equipped for this test; besides live telemetry it is equipped with several ejectable data recorders which are deployed near the end of the test and recovered from the ocean afterwards. The video simply doesn't show the impact of the spacecraft in the ocean.



It seems odd to me that the Orion wouldn't be equipped with parachutes for the test. Safe landing is an integral part of an abort. Correct deployment of parachutes in a dynamic environment is a tricky problem, worth testing repeatedly. No matter how stripped down the Orion might be (I've seen twitter sources claiming it's a "boilerplate article"), I have to assume even the hull alone has to be worth more than the cost of installing parachutes, let alone any instrumentation inside it; even if it couldn't be reused as a flight article after splashdown, it could be used for anything from future abort tests to training to a museum piece.



What rationale is there for not doing a complete parachute recovery test as part of the abort test?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Posting as a comment because unsourced, but my former coworkers who work on Orion discussing it on FB today claim it was because of $$
    $endgroup$
    – Organic Marble
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I think you're seriously overestimating the cost of a boilerplate mockup, and seriously underestimating the cost of parachutes. A boilerplate mockup is simply slabs of cheap steel welded into an approximation of the shape of the capsule, with sandbags, concrete slabs, or other cheap ballast added to get the desired balance.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related, needs updating: space.stackexchange.com/q/5538/26446
    $endgroup$
    – DrSheldon
    4 hours ago

















7












$begingroup$


On July 2, 2019, the Ascent Abort 2 test of the Orion spacecraft was performed, with the Orion command module ascending on a solid rocket booster, then firing its launch escape system to safely separate it from the booster.



One of the announcers in the video states at 1:47 that the spacecraft is not parachute-equipped for this test; besides live telemetry it is equipped with several ejectable data recorders which are deployed near the end of the test and recovered from the ocean afterwards. The video simply doesn't show the impact of the spacecraft in the ocean.



It seems odd to me that the Orion wouldn't be equipped with parachutes for the test. Safe landing is an integral part of an abort. Correct deployment of parachutes in a dynamic environment is a tricky problem, worth testing repeatedly. No matter how stripped down the Orion might be (I've seen twitter sources claiming it's a "boilerplate article"), I have to assume even the hull alone has to be worth more than the cost of installing parachutes, let alone any instrumentation inside it; even if it couldn't be reused as a flight article after splashdown, it could be used for anything from future abort tests to training to a museum piece.



What rationale is there for not doing a complete parachute recovery test as part of the abort test?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Posting as a comment because unsourced, but my former coworkers who work on Orion discussing it on FB today claim it was because of $$
    $endgroup$
    – Organic Marble
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I think you're seriously overestimating the cost of a boilerplate mockup, and seriously underestimating the cost of parachutes. A boilerplate mockup is simply slabs of cheap steel welded into an approximation of the shape of the capsule, with sandbags, concrete slabs, or other cheap ballast added to get the desired balance.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related, needs updating: space.stackexchange.com/q/5538/26446
    $endgroup$
    – DrSheldon
    4 hours ago













7












7








7





$begingroup$


On July 2, 2019, the Ascent Abort 2 test of the Orion spacecraft was performed, with the Orion command module ascending on a solid rocket booster, then firing its launch escape system to safely separate it from the booster.



One of the announcers in the video states at 1:47 that the spacecraft is not parachute-equipped for this test; besides live telemetry it is equipped with several ejectable data recorders which are deployed near the end of the test and recovered from the ocean afterwards. The video simply doesn't show the impact of the spacecraft in the ocean.



It seems odd to me that the Orion wouldn't be equipped with parachutes for the test. Safe landing is an integral part of an abort. Correct deployment of parachutes in a dynamic environment is a tricky problem, worth testing repeatedly. No matter how stripped down the Orion might be (I've seen twitter sources claiming it's a "boilerplate article"), I have to assume even the hull alone has to be worth more than the cost of installing parachutes, let alone any instrumentation inside it; even if it couldn't be reused as a flight article after splashdown, it could be used for anything from future abort tests to training to a museum piece.



What rationale is there for not doing a complete parachute recovery test as part of the abort test?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




On July 2, 2019, the Ascent Abort 2 test of the Orion spacecraft was performed, with the Orion command module ascending on a solid rocket booster, then firing its launch escape system to safely separate it from the booster.



One of the announcers in the video states at 1:47 that the spacecraft is not parachute-equipped for this test; besides live telemetry it is equipped with several ejectable data recorders which are deployed near the end of the test and recovered from the ocean afterwards. The video simply doesn't show the impact of the spacecraft in the ocean.



It seems odd to me that the Orion wouldn't be equipped with parachutes for the test. Safe landing is an integral part of an abort. Correct deployment of parachutes in a dynamic environment is a tricky problem, worth testing repeatedly. No matter how stripped down the Orion might be (I've seen twitter sources claiming it's a "boilerplate article"), I have to assume even the hull alone has to be worth more than the cost of installing parachutes, let alone any instrumentation inside it; even if it couldn't be reused as a flight article after splashdown, it could be used for anything from future abort tests to training to a museum piece.



What rationale is there for not doing a complete parachute recovery test as part of the abort test?







testing abort orion-spacecraft recovery parachute






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 7 hours ago







Russell Borogove

















asked 8 hours ago









Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove

95.6k3 gold badges323 silver badges412 bronze badges




95.6k3 gold badges323 silver badges412 bronze badges







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Posting as a comment because unsourced, but my former coworkers who work on Orion discussing it on FB today claim it was because of $$
    $endgroup$
    – Organic Marble
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I think you're seriously overestimating the cost of a boilerplate mockup, and seriously underestimating the cost of parachutes. A boilerplate mockup is simply slabs of cheap steel welded into an approximation of the shape of the capsule, with sandbags, concrete slabs, or other cheap ballast added to get the desired balance.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related, needs updating: space.stackexchange.com/q/5538/26446
    $endgroup$
    – DrSheldon
    4 hours ago












  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Posting as a comment because unsourced, but my former coworkers who work on Orion discussing it on FB today claim it was because of $$
    $endgroup$
    – Organic Marble
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I think you're seriously overestimating the cost of a boilerplate mockup, and seriously underestimating the cost of parachutes. A boilerplate mockup is simply slabs of cheap steel welded into an approximation of the shape of the capsule, with sandbags, concrete slabs, or other cheap ballast added to get the desired balance.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related, needs updating: space.stackexchange.com/q/5538/26446
    $endgroup$
    – DrSheldon
    4 hours ago







4




4




$begingroup$
Posting as a comment because unsourced, but my former coworkers who work on Orion discussing it on FB today claim it was because of $$
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Posting as a comment because unsourced, but my former coworkers who work on Orion discussing it on FB today claim it was because of $$
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
I think you're seriously overestimating the cost of a boilerplate mockup, and seriously underestimating the cost of parachutes. A boilerplate mockup is simply slabs of cheap steel welded into an approximation of the shape of the capsule, with sandbags, concrete slabs, or other cheap ballast added to get the desired balance.
$endgroup$
– Mark
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
I think you're seriously overestimating the cost of a boilerplate mockup, and seriously underestimating the cost of parachutes. A boilerplate mockup is simply slabs of cheap steel welded into an approximation of the shape of the capsule, with sandbags, concrete slabs, or other cheap ballast added to get the desired balance.
$endgroup$
– Mark
4 hours ago












$begingroup$
Related, needs updating: space.stackexchange.com/q/5538/26446
$endgroup$
– DrSheldon
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
Related, needs updating: space.stackexchange.com/q/5538/26446
$endgroup$
– DrSheldon
4 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

The test they were doing didn’t require parachutes. Data-taking ended right after the capsule separated from the tower. Since the capsule’s behavior after that was not part of the test, it could be an inert item.



To extend the test through parachute deployment, the capsule would have to be much more complex with the parachutes, deployment system, and a reaction control system to stabilize for deployment. That’s a lot of cost. (The capsules are single use, so you’re throwing that away)



Perhaps more important than cost, though, it’s also a lot of time to build that. The AA2 test was on the critical path, and delaying it would only happen for a Real Good Reason.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    0












    $begingroup$

    This is not a complete answer as I do not know the status of the parachute development, but here are some reasons a parachute is not needed:




    1. Ejected Data Recorders:
      These ~20 data recorders, literally Raspberry Pis with parachutes and waterproofing, all get the complete telemetry data from the test. This is made up of accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer (compass), barometer (altimeter), GPS, strain gauge, thermocouples, and more sensor data. The only data that would have been added to this if the Orion had a parachute are:



      • Material analysis, basically finding cracks

      • Launch loads on the parachute (not hard to emulate)


    2. Previous Parachute Tests:
      If I remember correctly, the Orion parachutes have been tested in a variety of scenarios already, including subsonic and supersonic / high altitude.


    3. High Cost of Refurbishment:
      A water-recovered test article would likely need refurbishment with a cost similar to its original cost to be able to be used in further tests. Also, further tests likely would use much different sensor arrangements.


    Of course budget factors into this, but NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      "NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk" Sadly, not always.
      $endgroup$
      – Organic Marble
      3 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @OrganicMarble They have learned from their mistakes in the Shuttle days.
      $endgroup$
      – CourageousPotato
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      You are an optimistic person! They keep learning that lesson.
      $endgroup$
      – Organic Marble
      2 hours ago














    Your Answer








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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    2












    $begingroup$

    The test they were doing didn’t require parachutes. Data-taking ended right after the capsule separated from the tower. Since the capsule’s behavior after that was not part of the test, it could be an inert item.



    To extend the test through parachute deployment, the capsule would have to be much more complex with the parachutes, deployment system, and a reaction control system to stabilize for deployment. That’s a lot of cost. (The capsules are single use, so you’re throwing that away)



    Perhaps more important than cost, though, it’s also a lot of time to build that. The AA2 test was on the critical path, and delaying it would only happen for a Real Good Reason.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      2












      $begingroup$

      The test they were doing didn’t require parachutes. Data-taking ended right after the capsule separated from the tower. Since the capsule’s behavior after that was not part of the test, it could be an inert item.



      To extend the test through parachute deployment, the capsule would have to be much more complex with the parachutes, deployment system, and a reaction control system to stabilize for deployment. That’s a lot of cost. (The capsules are single use, so you’re throwing that away)



      Perhaps more important than cost, though, it’s also a lot of time to build that. The AA2 test was on the critical path, and delaying it would only happen for a Real Good Reason.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        2












        2








        2





        $begingroup$

        The test they were doing didn’t require parachutes. Data-taking ended right after the capsule separated from the tower. Since the capsule’s behavior after that was not part of the test, it could be an inert item.



        To extend the test through parachute deployment, the capsule would have to be much more complex with the parachutes, deployment system, and a reaction control system to stabilize for deployment. That’s a lot of cost. (The capsules are single use, so you’re throwing that away)



        Perhaps more important than cost, though, it’s also a lot of time to build that. The AA2 test was on the critical path, and delaying it would only happen for a Real Good Reason.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        The test they were doing didn’t require parachutes. Data-taking ended right after the capsule separated from the tower. Since the capsule’s behavior after that was not part of the test, it could be an inert item.



        To extend the test through parachute deployment, the capsule would have to be much more complex with the parachutes, deployment system, and a reaction control system to stabilize for deployment. That’s a lot of cost. (The capsules are single use, so you’re throwing that away)



        Perhaps more important than cost, though, it’s also a lot of time to build that. The AA2 test was on the critical path, and delaying it would only happen for a Real Good Reason.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 3 hours ago









        Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen

        6,57014 silver badges32 bronze badges




        6,57014 silver badges32 bronze badges























            0












            $begingroup$

            This is not a complete answer as I do not know the status of the parachute development, but here are some reasons a parachute is not needed:




            1. Ejected Data Recorders:
              These ~20 data recorders, literally Raspberry Pis with parachutes and waterproofing, all get the complete telemetry data from the test. This is made up of accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer (compass), barometer (altimeter), GPS, strain gauge, thermocouples, and more sensor data. The only data that would have been added to this if the Orion had a parachute are:



              • Material analysis, basically finding cracks

              • Launch loads on the parachute (not hard to emulate)


            2. Previous Parachute Tests:
              If I remember correctly, the Orion parachutes have been tested in a variety of scenarios already, including subsonic and supersonic / high altitude.


            3. High Cost of Refurbishment:
              A water-recovered test article would likely need refurbishment with a cost similar to its original cost to be able to be used in further tests. Also, further tests likely would use much different sensor arrangements.


            Of course budget factors into this, but NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              "NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk" Sadly, not always.
              $endgroup$
              – Organic Marble
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @OrganicMarble They have learned from their mistakes in the Shuttle days.
              $endgroup$
              – CourageousPotato
              2 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              You are an optimistic person! They keep learning that lesson.
              $endgroup$
              – Organic Marble
              2 hours ago
















            0












            $begingroup$

            This is not a complete answer as I do not know the status of the parachute development, but here are some reasons a parachute is not needed:




            1. Ejected Data Recorders:
              These ~20 data recorders, literally Raspberry Pis with parachutes and waterproofing, all get the complete telemetry data from the test. This is made up of accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer (compass), barometer (altimeter), GPS, strain gauge, thermocouples, and more sensor data. The only data that would have been added to this if the Orion had a parachute are:



              • Material analysis, basically finding cracks

              • Launch loads on the parachute (not hard to emulate)


            2. Previous Parachute Tests:
              If I remember correctly, the Orion parachutes have been tested in a variety of scenarios already, including subsonic and supersonic / high altitude.


            3. High Cost of Refurbishment:
              A water-recovered test article would likely need refurbishment with a cost similar to its original cost to be able to be used in further tests. Also, further tests likely would use much different sensor arrangements.


            Of course budget factors into this, but NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              "NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk" Sadly, not always.
              $endgroup$
              – Organic Marble
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @OrganicMarble They have learned from their mistakes in the Shuttle days.
              $endgroup$
              – CourageousPotato
              2 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              You are an optimistic person! They keep learning that lesson.
              $endgroup$
              – Organic Marble
              2 hours ago














            0












            0








            0





            $begingroup$

            This is not a complete answer as I do not know the status of the parachute development, but here are some reasons a parachute is not needed:




            1. Ejected Data Recorders:
              These ~20 data recorders, literally Raspberry Pis with parachutes and waterproofing, all get the complete telemetry data from the test. This is made up of accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer (compass), barometer (altimeter), GPS, strain gauge, thermocouples, and more sensor data. The only data that would have been added to this if the Orion had a parachute are:



              • Material analysis, basically finding cracks

              • Launch loads on the parachute (not hard to emulate)


            2. Previous Parachute Tests:
              If I remember correctly, the Orion parachutes have been tested in a variety of scenarios already, including subsonic and supersonic / high altitude.


            3. High Cost of Refurbishment:
              A water-recovered test article would likely need refurbishment with a cost similar to its original cost to be able to be used in further tests. Also, further tests likely would use much different sensor arrangements.


            Of course budget factors into this, but NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            This is not a complete answer as I do not know the status of the parachute development, but here are some reasons a parachute is not needed:




            1. Ejected Data Recorders:
              These ~20 data recorders, literally Raspberry Pis with parachutes and waterproofing, all get the complete telemetry data from the test. This is made up of accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer (compass), barometer (altimeter), GPS, strain gauge, thermocouples, and more sensor data. The only data that would have been added to this if the Orion had a parachute are:



              • Material analysis, basically finding cracks

              • Launch loads on the parachute (not hard to emulate)


            2. Previous Parachute Tests:
              If I remember correctly, the Orion parachutes have been tested in a variety of scenarios already, including subsonic and supersonic / high altitude.


            3. High Cost of Refurbishment:
              A water-recovered test article would likely need refurbishment with a cost similar to its original cost to be able to be used in further tests. Also, further tests likely would use much different sensor arrangements.


            Of course budget factors into this, but NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 4 hours ago









            CourageousPotatoCourageousPotato

            7451 silver badge9 bronze badges




            7451 silver badge9 bronze badges











            • $begingroup$
              "NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk" Sadly, not always.
              $endgroup$
              – Organic Marble
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @OrganicMarble They have learned from their mistakes in the Shuttle days.
              $endgroup$
              – CourageousPotato
              2 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              You are an optimistic person! They keep learning that lesson.
              $endgroup$
              – Organic Marble
              2 hours ago

















            • $begingroup$
              "NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk" Sadly, not always.
              $endgroup$
              – Organic Marble
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @OrganicMarble They have learned from their mistakes in the Shuttle days.
              $endgroup$
              – CourageousPotato
              2 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              You are an optimistic person! They keep learning that lesson.
              $endgroup$
              – Organic Marble
              2 hours ago
















            $begingroup$
            "NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk" Sadly, not always.
            $endgroup$
            – Organic Marble
            3 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            "NASA is always on top of mitigating its risk" Sadly, not always.
            $endgroup$
            – Organic Marble
            3 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            @OrganicMarble They have learned from their mistakes in the Shuttle days.
            $endgroup$
            – CourageousPotato
            2 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            @OrganicMarble They have learned from their mistakes in the Shuttle days.
            $endgroup$
            – CourageousPotato
            2 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            You are an optimistic person! They keep learning that lesson.
            $endgroup$
            – Organic Marble
            2 hours ago





            $begingroup$
            You are an optimistic person! They keep learning that lesson.
            $endgroup$
            – Organic Marble
            2 hours ago


















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