Insight into cavity resonatorsVisual understanding of EM fields within a rectangular metal containerNeed help with selecting an antenna for PCBAntenna orientation and polarizationHow did four-course LF radio navigation ranges have their beams other than at 90° / 180° angles?Do conductors in the reactive near field of an antenna cause loss?How Do Intermodulation Products Manifest in Transmitting Equipment?What makes the band of an antenna broader than others?Reflection of Electric field in open-circuited transmission lineVisual understanding of EM fields within a rectangular metal container
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Insight into cavity resonators
Visual understanding of EM fields within a rectangular metal containerNeed help with selecting an antenna for PCBAntenna orientation and polarizationHow did four-course LF radio navigation ranges have their beams other than at 90° / 180° angles?Do conductors in the reactive near field of an antenna cause loss?How Do Intermodulation Products Manifest in Transmitting Equipment?What makes the band of an antenna broader than others?Reflection of Electric field in open-circuited transmission lineVisual understanding of EM fields within a rectangular metal container
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
Modes of a waveguide
As shown in the link above, they show how these modes work for various values of m, n, and p. However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?
From the picture I have shown the placement of 4 antennas refer to previous post here Visual understanding of EM fields within a rectangular metal container.. I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency. I am simulating the modes in the container.
However, as noted in the comments and answer there will exist different modes of operation and I think if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna. But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field pattern?
If there only existed one mode how will the EM field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
rf radiation em
edited 8 hours ago
Enric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
JoeyJoey
12711 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Modes of a waveguide
As shown in the link above, they show how these modes work for various values of m, n, and p. However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?
From the picture I have shown the placement of 4 antennas refer to previous post here Visual understanding of EM fields within a rectangular metal container.. I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency. I am simulating the modes in the container.
However, as noted in the comments and answer there will exist different modes of operation and I think if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna. But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field pattern?
If there only existed one mode how will the EM field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
rf radiation em
edited 8 hours ago
Enric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
JoeyJoey
12711 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?", open the doors of the microwave oven and observe, there is a waveguide coming in.
$endgroup$
– Marko Buršič
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MarkoBuršič appreciate the direct and practical answer. Thank you
$endgroup$
– Joey
5 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
your energy can be injected as Efield floating probe, or by Hfield shorted probe.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Beware, the word "mode" has several separate meanings. "MODES of operation" has little to do with "cavity MODES." The second is one of the allowed 3D standing-wave shapes, one of the resonances, of which there can be many at the same time: perhaps hundreds of cavity-modes, yet only one "mode of operation." The question and its answers IS NOT about "modes of operation."
$endgroup$
– wbeaty
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Modes of a waveguide
As shown in the link above, they show how these modes work for various values of m, n, and p. However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?
From the picture I have shown the placement of 4 antennas refer to previous post here Visual understanding of EM fields within a rectangular metal container.. I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency. I am simulating the modes in the container.
However, as noted in the comments and answer there will exist different modes of operation and I think if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna. But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field pattern?
If there only existed one mode how will the EM field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
rf radiation em
edited 8 hours ago
Enric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
JoeyJoey
12711 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Modes of a waveguide
As shown in the link above, they show how these modes work for various values of m, n, and p. However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?
From the picture I have shown the placement of 4 antennas refer to previous post here Visual understanding of EM fields within a rectangular metal container.. I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency. I am simulating the modes in the container.
However, as noted in the comments and answer there will exist different modes of operation and I think if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna. But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field pattern?
If there only existed one mode how will the EM field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
rf radiation em
rf radiation em
edited 8 hours ago
Enric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
JoeyJoey
12711 bronze badges
edited 8 hours ago
Enric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
JoeyJoey
12711 bronze badges
edited 8 hours ago
Enric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
edited 8 hours ago
Enric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
edited 8 hours ago
Enric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
JoeyJoey
12711 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
JoeyJoey
12711 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
JoeyJoey
12711 bronze badges
12711 bronze badges
$begingroup$
"However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?", open the doors of the microwave oven and observe, there is a waveguide coming in.
$endgroup$
– Marko Buršič
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MarkoBuršič appreciate the direct and practical answer. Thank you
$endgroup$
– Joey
5 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
your energy can be injected as Efield floating probe, or by Hfield shorted probe.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Beware, the word "mode" has several separate meanings. "MODES of operation" has little to do with "cavity MODES." The second is one of the allowed 3D standing-wave shapes, one of the resonances, of which there can be many at the same time: perhaps hundreds of cavity-modes, yet only one "mode of operation." The question and its answers IS NOT about "modes of operation."
$endgroup$
– wbeaty
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
"However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?", open the doors of the microwave oven and observe, there is a waveguide coming in.
$endgroup$
– Marko Buršič
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MarkoBuršič appreciate the direct and practical answer. Thank you
$endgroup$
– Joey
5 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
your energy can be injected as Efield floating probe, or by Hfield shorted probe.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Beware, the word "mode" has several separate meanings. "MODES of operation" has little to do with "cavity MODES." The second is one of the allowed 3D standing-wave shapes, one of the resonances, of which there can be many at the same time: perhaps hundreds of cavity-modes, yet only one "mode of operation." The question and its answers IS NOT about "modes of operation."
$endgroup$
– wbeaty
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
"However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?", open the doors of the microwave oven and observe, there is a waveguide coming in.
$endgroup$
– Marko Buršič
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
"However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?", open the doors of the microwave oven and observe, there is a waveguide coming in.
$endgroup$
– Marko Buršič
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MarkoBuršič appreciate the direct and practical answer. Thank you
$endgroup$
– Joey
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MarkoBuršič appreciate the direct and practical answer. Thank you
$endgroup$
– Joey
5 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
your energy can be injected as Efield floating probe, or by Hfield shorted probe.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
your energy can be injected as Efield floating probe, or by Hfield shorted probe.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Beware, the word "mode" has several separate meanings. "MODES of operation" has little to do with "cavity MODES." The second is one of the allowed 3D standing-wave shapes, one of the resonances, of which there can be many at the same time: perhaps hundreds of cavity-modes, yet only one "mode of operation." The question and its answers IS NOT about "modes of operation."
$endgroup$
– wbeaty
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Beware, the word "mode" has several separate meanings. "MODES of operation" has little to do with "cavity MODES." The second is one of the allowed 3D standing-wave shapes, one of the resonances, of which there can be many at the same time: perhaps hundreds of cavity-modes, yet only one "mode of operation." The question and its answers IS NOT about "modes of operation."
$endgroup$
– wbeaty
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Each antenna is able to excite almost any mode, and will. The only modes that won't be excited by an antenna are those for which the antenna is at a node of the mode, a point where the standing wave of the mode has no amplitude.
Each antenna is at a different point in the cavity, so will excite different modes in different ratios.
If there only existed one mode how will the em field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
The only way for there to be only one mode is if the cavity is much smaller, comparable to the half wavelength.
I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency.
No, you don't have a cavity resonator, at least not what engineers would call a cavity resonator. You have a honking great box. A cavity resonator supports only one mode, it's built small enough or operated at the right frequency, to do that. You have a large box supporting many, many modes, most of which will be excited at essentially unpredictable levels by any radiation coming in from the antennae.
There is no need for you to visualise the modes in your box, all you need to know is that there are a lot of them. There are so many that the pattern you actually get will be unpredictable, given the accuracy with which you can characterise the box and the antennae.
A standard domestic microwave oven cavity is multimode. It will contain a number of high field and low field regions, which will result in over-cooked and cold food respectively. The three solutions to this are a) a turntable, to try to move the food through a variety of regions, b) a mode stirrer (very few have these) which is a metal vane rotating in the cavity to change the electrical geometry (roughly equivalent to your multiple antennae) and c) a single mode cavity with predictable power levels, these are only used in industrial applications where the cost of low frequency RF power generation is acceptable.
answered 8 hours ago
Neil_UKNeil_UK
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
From what I have researched so far a microwave oven is what I'm looking for. Please correct me if the following statement is wrong: The "heat" produced in the microwave is proportional to the magnitude of the EM waves. No heat corresponds to a dead zone.
$endgroup$
– Joey
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Joey Heat is power, so it's proportional to the magnitude squared. A node will have no field, so zero magnitude, so zero power.
$endgroup$
– Neil_UK
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna
Not exactly. Modes themselves only depend on frequency and geometry of the cavity indeed.
However, which modes will be excited within your bandwidth of interest is a function of where you place your source of excitation. You can place it in a location where a maximum (or a minimum) of modes are excited. This is called mode coupling:
- If you place the antenna in a node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is zero) the coupling of your source to that mode is zero at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna in an anti-node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is maximum) the coupling of your source to that mode is maximum at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna somewhere else you will have something in between (coupling levels below maximum).
But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern
within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field
pattern?
Each antenna will couple differently to the modes according to its location. As a result, each antenna will probably result in very different overall frequency responses because of different coupling levels to whichever modes dominate at that location within your interest bandwidth. Unless, of course, you carefully choose the locations of each antenna so that the mode coupling is the same for all of them.
BONUS...
Wait, there's more to mode coupling than meets the eye:
- If you have two sources radiating the same signal, you can place them at phase-opposed anti-nodes of the same mode and expect cancelation of that mode. There are some applications (mainly audio) where this technique is used to flatten out the room response at bass frequencies. Several subwoofers are cleverly placed so they cancel out some room modes that cause 'boomy' reinforcement of some bass frequencies.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: Because of reciprocity, the same thing applies to a receiving antenna. You can place it to maximise (or minimise) the number of modes present at that location.
answered 8 hours ago
Enric BlancoEnric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I thought that the source of radiation/antenna will determine where the maximum and minimum modes are. From your explanation, it seems like first, you calculate all the modes as was done in the previous post and then you place your antennas. Is the latter statement correct? This part is confusing me.
$endgroup$
– Joey
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, first you calculate the modes and then you select where to place your antennas.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Otherwise, it's just a big mess of multiple modes and random coupling to them. However, your propagation scenario seems as messful and nightmarish as it can get. I agree with @Neil_UK when he says that what you have is basically a honking great box.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Okay thank you. I have only dealt with this in theory, never actually applied it practically. Hence some stupid questions will arise. Is there a site that shows how to this practically, of placing of these antennas to overcome these negative effects
$endgroup$
– Joey
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I can't recommend any out-of-the-box tool for RF because I don't know any for this precise application, sorry. But if you just want to have a grasp at how modes and mode coupling works in general, there are free simulation tools for audio applications (room modes) where you can set room (=cavity) dimensions, select positions for speaker (=source antenna) and listener (=receiving antenna) and then observe how the frequency response change as you move the speaker or the listener within the room. One of them is part of the REW (Room Equalization Wizard) suite.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
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2 Answers
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active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
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votes
active
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votes
$begingroup$
Each antenna is able to excite almost any mode, and will. The only modes that won't be excited by an antenna are those for which the antenna is at a node of the mode, a point where the standing wave of the mode has no amplitude.
Each antenna is at a different point in the cavity, so will excite different modes in different ratios.
If there only existed one mode how will the em field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
The only way for there to be only one mode is if the cavity is much smaller, comparable to the half wavelength.
I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency.
No, you don't have a cavity resonator, at least not what engineers would call a cavity resonator. You have a honking great box. A cavity resonator supports only one mode, it's built small enough or operated at the right frequency, to do that. You have a large box supporting many, many modes, most of which will be excited at essentially unpredictable levels by any radiation coming in from the antennae.
There is no need for you to visualise the modes in your box, all you need to know is that there are a lot of them. There are so many that the pattern you actually get will be unpredictable, given the accuracy with which you can characterise the box and the antennae.
A standard domestic microwave oven cavity is multimode. It will contain a number of high field and low field regions, which will result in over-cooked and cold food respectively. The three solutions to this are a) a turntable, to try to move the food through a variety of regions, b) a mode stirrer (very few have these) which is a metal vane rotating in the cavity to change the electrical geometry (roughly equivalent to your multiple antennae) and c) a single mode cavity with predictable power levels, these are only used in industrial applications where the cost of low frequency RF power generation is acceptable.
answered 8 hours ago
Neil_UKNeil_UK
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
From what I have researched so far a microwave oven is what I'm looking for. Please correct me if the following statement is wrong: The "heat" produced in the microwave is proportional to the magnitude of the EM waves. No heat corresponds to a dead zone.
$endgroup$
– Joey
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Joey Heat is power, so it's proportional to the magnitude squared. A node will have no field, so zero magnitude, so zero power.
$endgroup$
– Neil_UK
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Each antenna is able to excite almost any mode, and will. The only modes that won't be excited by an antenna are those for which the antenna is at a node of the mode, a point where the standing wave of the mode has no amplitude.
Each antenna is at a different point in the cavity, so will excite different modes in different ratios.
If there only existed one mode how will the em field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
The only way for there to be only one mode is if the cavity is much smaller, comparable to the half wavelength.
I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency.
No, you don't have a cavity resonator, at least not what engineers would call a cavity resonator. You have a honking great box. A cavity resonator supports only one mode, it's built small enough or operated at the right frequency, to do that. You have a large box supporting many, many modes, most of which will be excited at essentially unpredictable levels by any radiation coming in from the antennae.
There is no need for you to visualise the modes in your box, all you need to know is that there are a lot of them. There are so many that the pattern you actually get will be unpredictable, given the accuracy with which you can characterise the box and the antennae.
A standard domestic microwave oven cavity is multimode. It will contain a number of high field and low field regions, which will result in over-cooked and cold food respectively. The three solutions to this are a) a turntable, to try to move the food through a variety of regions, b) a mode stirrer (very few have these) which is a metal vane rotating in the cavity to change the electrical geometry (roughly equivalent to your multiple antennae) and c) a single mode cavity with predictable power levels, these are only used in industrial applications where the cost of low frequency RF power generation is acceptable.
answered 8 hours ago
Neil_UKNeil_UK
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
From what I have researched so far a microwave oven is what I'm looking for. Please correct me if the following statement is wrong: The "heat" produced in the microwave is proportional to the magnitude of the EM waves. No heat corresponds to a dead zone.
$endgroup$
– Joey
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Joey Heat is power, so it's proportional to the magnitude squared. A node will have no field, so zero magnitude, so zero power.
$endgroup$
– Neil_UK
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Each antenna is able to excite almost any mode, and will. The only modes that won't be excited by an antenna are those for which the antenna is at a node of the mode, a point where the standing wave of the mode has no amplitude.
Each antenna is at a different point in the cavity, so will excite different modes in different ratios.
If there only existed one mode how will the em field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
The only way for there to be only one mode is if the cavity is much smaller, comparable to the half wavelength.
I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency.
No, you don't have a cavity resonator, at least not what engineers would call a cavity resonator. You have a honking great box. A cavity resonator supports only one mode, it's built small enough or operated at the right frequency, to do that. You have a large box supporting many, many modes, most of which will be excited at essentially unpredictable levels by any radiation coming in from the antennae.
There is no need for you to visualise the modes in your box, all you need to know is that there are a lot of them. There are so many that the pattern you actually get will be unpredictable, given the accuracy with which you can characterise the box and the antennae.
A standard domestic microwave oven cavity is multimode. It will contain a number of high field and low field regions, which will result in over-cooked and cold food respectively. The three solutions to this are a) a turntable, to try to move the food through a variety of regions, b) a mode stirrer (very few have these) which is a metal vane rotating in the cavity to change the electrical geometry (roughly equivalent to your multiple antennae) and c) a single mode cavity with predictable power levels, these are only used in industrial applications where the cost of low frequency RF power generation is acceptable.
answered 8 hours ago
Neil_UKNeil_UK
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Each antenna is able to excite almost any mode, and will. The only modes that won't be excited by an antenna are those for which the antenna is at a node of the mode, a point where the standing wave of the mode has no amplitude.
Each antenna is at a different point in the cavity, so will excite different modes in different ratios.
If there only existed one mode how will the em field look inside the container for each of the 4 antennas?
The only way for there to be only one mode is if the cavity is much smaller, comparable to the half wavelength.
I'm am basically working backward in that I already have a cavity resonator and the frequency.
No, you don't have a cavity resonator, at least not what engineers would call a cavity resonator. You have a honking great box. A cavity resonator supports only one mode, it's built small enough or operated at the right frequency, to do that. You have a large box supporting many, many modes, most of which will be excited at essentially unpredictable levels by any radiation coming in from the antennae.
There is no need for you to visualise the modes in your box, all you need to know is that there are a lot of them. There are so many that the pattern you actually get will be unpredictable, given the accuracy with which you can characterise the box and the antennae.
A standard domestic microwave oven cavity is multimode. It will contain a number of high field and low field regions, which will result in over-cooked and cold food respectively. The three solutions to this are a) a turntable, to try to move the food through a variety of regions, b) a mode stirrer (very few have these) which is a metal vane rotating in the cavity to change the electrical geometry (roughly equivalent to your multiple antennae) and c) a single mode cavity with predictable power levels, these are only used in industrial applications where the cost of low frequency RF power generation is acceptable.
answered 8 hours ago
Neil_UKNeil_UK
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Neil_UKNeil_UK
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Neil_UKNeil_UK
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Neil_UKNeil_UK
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
86.9k2 gold badges88 silver badges201 bronze badges
$begingroup$
From what I have researched so far a microwave oven is what I'm looking for. Please correct me if the following statement is wrong: The "heat" produced in the microwave is proportional to the magnitude of the EM waves. No heat corresponds to a dead zone.
$endgroup$
– Joey
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Joey Heat is power, so it's proportional to the magnitude squared. A node will have no field, so zero magnitude, so zero power.
$endgroup$
– Neil_UK
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
From what I have researched so far a microwave oven is what I'm looking for. Please correct me if the following statement is wrong: The "heat" produced in the microwave is proportional to the magnitude of the EM waves. No heat corresponds to a dead zone.
$endgroup$
– Joey
4 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Joey Heat is power, so it's proportional to the magnitude squared. A node will have no field, so zero magnitude, so zero power.
$endgroup$
– Neil_UK
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
From what I have researched so far a microwave oven is what I'm looking for. Please correct me if the following statement is wrong: The "heat" produced in the microwave is proportional to the magnitude of the EM waves. No heat corresponds to a dead zone.
$endgroup$
– Joey
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
From what I have researched so far a microwave oven is what I'm looking for. Please correct me if the following statement is wrong: The "heat" produced in the microwave is proportional to the magnitude of the EM waves. No heat corresponds to a dead zone.
$endgroup$
– Joey
4 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@Joey Heat is power, so it's proportional to the magnitude squared. A node will have no field, so zero magnitude, so zero power.
$endgroup$
– Neil_UK
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Joey Heat is power, so it's proportional to the magnitude squared. A node will have no field, so zero magnitude, so zero power.
$endgroup$
– Neil_UK
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna
Not exactly. Modes themselves only depend on frequency and geometry of the cavity indeed.
However, which modes will be excited within your bandwidth of interest is a function of where you place your source of excitation. You can place it in a location where a maximum (or a minimum) of modes are excited. This is called mode coupling:
- If you place the antenna in a node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is zero) the coupling of your source to that mode is zero at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna in an anti-node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is maximum) the coupling of your source to that mode is maximum at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna somewhere else you will have something in between (coupling levels below maximum).
But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern
within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field
pattern?
Each antenna will couple differently to the modes according to its location. As a result, each antenna will probably result in very different overall frequency responses because of different coupling levels to whichever modes dominate at that location within your interest bandwidth. Unless, of course, you carefully choose the locations of each antenna so that the mode coupling is the same for all of them.
BONUS...
Wait, there's more to mode coupling than meets the eye:
- If you have two sources radiating the same signal, you can place them at phase-opposed anti-nodes of the same mode and expect cancelation of that mode. There are some applications (mainly audio) where this technique is used to flatten out the room response at bass frequencies. Several subwoofers are cleverly placed so they cancel out some room modes that cause 'boomy' reinforcement of some bass frequencies.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: Because of reciprocity, the same thing applies to a receiving antenna. You can place it to maximise (or minimise) the number of modes present at that location.
answered 8 hours ago
Enric BlancoEnric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I thought that the source of radiation/antenna will determine where the maximum and minimum modes are. From your explanation, it seems like first, you calculate all the modes as was done in the previous post and then you place your antennas. Is the latter statement correct? This part is confusing me.
$endgroup$
– Joey
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, first you calculate the modes and then you select where to place your antennas.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Otherwise, it's just a big mess of multiple modes and random coupling to them. However, your propagation scenario seems as messful and nightmarish as it can get. I agree with @Neil_UK when he says that what you have is basically a honking great box.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Okay thank you. I have only dealt with this in theory, never actually applied it practically. Hence some stupid questions will arise. Is there a site that shows how to this practically, of placing of these antennas to overcome these negative effects
$endgroup$
– Joey
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I can't recommend any out-of-the-box tool for RF because I don't know any for this precise application, sorry. But if you just want to have a grasp at how modes and mode coupling works in general, there are free simulation tools for audio applications (room modes) where you can set room (=cavity) dimensions, select positions for speaker (=source antenna) and listener (=receiving antenna) and then observe how the frequency response change as you move the speaker or the listener within the room. One of them is part of the REW (Room Equalization Wizard) suite.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna
Not exactly. Modes themselves only depend on frequency and geometry of the cavity indeed.
However, which modes will be excited within your bandwidth of interest is a function of where you place your source of excitation. You can place it in a location where a maximum (or a minimum) of modes are excited. This is called mode coupling:
- If you place the antenna in a node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is zero) the coupling of your source to that mode is zero at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna in an anti-node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is maximum) the coupling of your source to that mode is maximum at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna somewhere else you will have something in between (coupling levels below maximum).
But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern
within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field
pattern?
Each antenna will couple differently to the modes according to its location. As a result, each antenna will probably result in very different overall frequency responses because of different coupling levels to whichever modes dominate at that location within your interest bandwidth. Unless, of course, you carefully choose the locations of each antenna so that the mode coupling is the same for all of them.
BONUS...
Wait, there's more to mode coupling than meets the eye:
- If you have two sources radiating the same signal, you can place them at phase-opposed anti-nodes of the same mode and expect cancelation of that mode. There are some applications (mainly audio) where this technique is used to flatten out the room response at bass frequencies. Several subwoofers are cleverly placed so they cancel out some room modes that cause 'boomy' reinforcement of some bass frequencies.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: Because of reciprocity, the same thing applies to a receiving antenna. You can place it to maximise (or minimise) the number of modes present at that location.
answered 8 hours ago
Enric BlancoEnric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I thought that the source of radiation/antenna will determine where the maximum and minimum modes are. From your explanation, it seems like first, you calculate all the modes as was done in the previous post and then you place your antennas. Is the latter statement correct? This part is confusing me.
$endgroup$
– Joey
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, first you calculate the modes and then you select where to place your antennas.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Otherwise, it's just a big mess of multiple modes and random coupling to them. However, your propagation scenario seems as messful and nightmarish as it can get. I agree with @Neil_UK when he says that what you have is basically a honking great box.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Okay thank you. I have only dealt with this in theory, never actually applied it practically. Hence some stupid questions will arise. Is there a site that shows how to this practically, of placing of these antennas to overcome these negative effects
$endgroup$
– Joey
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I can't recommend any out-of-the-box tool for RF because I don't know any for this precise application, sorry. But if you just want to have a grasp at how modes and mode coupling works in general, there are free simulation tools for audio applications (room modes) where you can set room (=cavity) dimensions, select positions for speaker (=source antenna) and listener (=receiving antenna) and then observe how the frequency response change as you move the speaker or the listener within the room. One of them is part of the REW (Room Equalization Wizard) suite.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna
Not exactly. Modes themselves only depend on frequency and geometry of the cavity indeed.
However, which modes will be excited within your bandwidth of interest is a function of where you place your source of excitation. You can place it in a location where a maximum (or a minimum) of modes are excited. This is called mode coupling:
- If you place the antenna in a node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is zero) the coupling of your source to that mode is zero at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna in an anti-node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is maximum) the coupling of your source to that mode is maximum at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna somewhere else you will have something in between (coupling levels below maximum).
But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern
within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field
pattern?
Each antenna will couple differently to the modes according to its location. As a result, each antenna will probably result in very different overall frequency responses because of different coupling levels to whichever modes dominate at that location within your interest bandwidth. Unless, of course, you carefully choose the locations of each antenna so that the mode coupling is the same for all of them.
BONUS...
Wait, there's more to mode coupling than meets the eye:
- If you have two sources radiating the same signal, you can place them at phase-opposed anti-nodes of the same mode and expect cancelation of that mode. There are some applications (mainly audio) where this technique is used to flatten out the room response at bass frequencies. Several subwoofers are cleverly placed so they cancel out some room modes that cause 'boomy' reinforcement of some bass frequencies.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: Because of reciprocity, the same thing applies to a receiving antenna. You can place it to maximise (or minimise) the number of modes present at that location.
answered 8 hours ago
Enric BlancoEnric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
$endgroup$
if I am correct these modes will be the same for each antenna
Not exactly. Modes themselves only depend on frequency and geometry of the cavity indeed.
However, which modes will be excited within your bandwidth of interest is a function of where you place your source of excitation. You can place it in a location where a maximum (or a minimum) of modes are excited. This is called mode coupling:
- If you place the antenna in a node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is zero) the coupling of your source to that mode is zero at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna in an anti-node of a mode (the point where the mode amplitude is maximum) the coupling of your source to that mode is maximum at that frequency (ideally).
- If you place the antenna somewhere else you will have something in between (coupling levels below maximum).
But does this mean that these will all have the same EM field pattern
within the container or will each antenna have it's on EM field
pattern?
Each antenna will couple differently to the modes according to its location. As a result, each antenna will probably result in very different overall frequency responses because of different coupling levels to whichever modes dominate at that location within your interest bandwidth. Unless, of course, you carefully choose the locations of each antenna so that the mode coupling is the same for all of them.
BONUS...
Wait, there's more to mode coupling than meets the eye:
- If you have two sources radiating the same signal, you can place them at phase-opposed anti-nodes of the same mode and expect cancelation of that mode. There are some applications (mainly audio) where this technique is used to flatten out the room response at bass frequencies. Several subwoofers are cleverly placed so they cancel out some room modes that cause 'boomy' reinforcement of some bass frequencies.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: Because of reciprocity, the same thing applies to a receiving antenna. You can place it to maximise (or minimise) the number of modes present at that location.
answered 8 hours ago
Enric BlancoEnric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Enric BlancoEnric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Enric BlancoEnric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Enric BlancoEnric Blanco
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
5,1435 gold badges16 silver badges35 bronze badges
$begingroup$
I thought that the source of radiation/antenna will determine where the maximum and minimum modes are. From your explanation, it seems like first, you calculate all the modes as was done in the previous post and then you place your antennas. Is the latter statement correct? This part is confusing me.
$endgroup$
– Joey
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, first you calculate the modes and then you select where to place your antennas.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Otherwise, it's just a big mess of multiple modes and random coupling to them. However, your propagation scenario seems as messful and nightmarish as it can get. I agree with @Neil_UK when he says that what you have is basically a honking great box.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Okay thank you. I have only dealt with this in theory, never actually applied it practically. Hence some stupid questions will arise. Is there a site that shows how to this practically, of placing of these antennas to overcome these negative effects
$endgroup$
– Joey
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I can't recommend any out-of-the-box tool for RF because I don't know any for this precise application, sorry. But if you just want to have a grasp at how modes and mode coupling works in general, there are free simulation tools for audio applications (room modes) where you can set room (=cavity) dimensions, select positions for speaker (=source antenna) and listener (=receiving antenna) and then observe how the frequency response change as you move the speaker or the listener within the room. One of them is part of the REW (Room Equalization Wizard) suite.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
I thought that the source of radiation/antenna will determine where the maximum and minimum modes are. From your explanation, it seems like first, you calculate all the modes as was done in the previous post and then you place your antennas. Is the latter statement correct? This part is confusing me.
$endgroup$
– Joey
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, first you calculate the modes and then you select where to place your antennas.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Otherwise, it's just a big mess of multiple modes and random coupling to them. However, your propagation scenario seems as messful and nightmarish as it can get. I agree with @Neil_UK when he says that what you have is basically a honking great box.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Okay thank you. I have only dealt with this in theory, never actually applied it practically. Hence some stupid questions will arise. Is there a site that shows how to this practically, of placing of these antennas to overcome these negative effects
$endgroup$
– Joey
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I can't recommend any out-of-the-box tool for RF because I don't know any for this precise application, sorry. But if you just want to have a grasp at how modes and mode coupling works in general, there are free simulation tools for audio applications (room modes) where you can set room (=cavity) dimensions, select positions for speaker (=source antenna) and listener (=receiving antenna) and then observe how the frequency response change as you move the speaker or the listener within the room. One of them is part of the REW (Room Equalization Wizard) suite.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I thought that the source of radiation/antenna will determine where the maximum and minimum modes are. From your explanation, it seems like first, you calculate all the modes as was done in the previous post and then you place your antennas. Is the latter statement correct? This part is confusing me.
$endgroup$
– Joey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I thought that the source of radiation/antenna will determine where the maximum and minimum modes are. From your explanation, it seems like first, you calculate all the modes as was done in the previous post and then you place your antennas. Is the latter statement correct? This part is confusing me.
$endgroup$
– Joey
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Yes, first you calculate the modes and then you select where to place your antennas.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, first you calculate the modes and then you select where to place your antennas.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Otherwise, it's just a big mess of multiple modes and random coupling to them. However, your propagation scenario seems as messful and nightmarish as it can get. I agree with @Neil_UK when he says that what you have is basically a honking great box.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Otherwise, it's just a big mess of multiple modes and random coupling to them. However, your propagation scenario seems as messful and nightmarish as it can get. I agree with @Neil_UK when he says that what you have is basically a honking great box.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Okay thank you. I have only dealt with this in theory, never actually applied it practically. Hence some stupid questions will arise. Is there a site that shows how to this practically, of placing of these antennas to overcome these negative effects
$endgroup$
– Joey
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Okay thank you. I have only dealt with this in theory, never actually applied it practically. Hence some stupid questions will arise. Is there a site that shows how to this practically, of placing of these antennas to overcome these negative effects
$endgroup$
– Joey
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
I can't recommend any out-of-the-box tool for RF because I don't know any for this precise application, sorry. But if you just want to have a grasp at how modes and mode coupling works in general, there are free simulation tools for audio applications (room modes) where you can set room (=cavity) dimensions, select positions for speaker (=source antenna) and listener (=receiving antenna) and then observe how the frequency response change as you move the speaker or the listener within the room. One of them is part of the REW (Room Equalization Wizard) suite.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I can't recommend any out-of-the-box tool for RF because I don't know any for this precise application, sorry. But if you just want to have a grasp at how modes and mode coupling works in general, there are free simulation tools for audio applications (room modes) where you can set room (=cavity) dimensions, select positions for speaker (=source antenna) and listener (=receiving antenna) and then observe how the frequency response change as you move the speaker or the listener within the room. One of them is part of the REW (Room Equalization Wizard) suite.
$endgroup$
– Enric Blanco
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
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$begingroup$
"However, where is the antenna/ source of radiation placed within the cavity?", open the doors of the microwave oven and observe, there is a waveguide coming in.
$endgroup$
– Marko Buršič
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MarkoBuršič appreciate the direct and practical answer. Thank you
$endgroup$
– Joey
5 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
your energy can be injected as Efield floating probe, or by Hfield shorted probe.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Beware, the word "mode" has several separate meanings. "MODES of operation" has little to do with "cavity MODES." The second is one of the allowed 3D standing-wave shapes, one of the resonances, of which there can be many at the same time: perhaps hundreds of cavity-modes, yet only one "mode of operation." The question and its answers IS NOT about "modes of operation."
$endgroup$
– wbeaty
1 hour ago