Should an arbiter claim draw at a K+R vs K+R endgame?Delay clock with delay not setRules: en passant and draw by triple repetitionValid claim for a draw in a blitz game?What should the penalty be for a player leaving the playing venue?Can a win be claimed on the second illegal move if the first wasn't raised?

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Should an arbiter claim draw at a K+R vs K+R endgame?

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Should an arbiter claim draw at a K+R vs K+R endgame?


Delay clock with delay not setRules: en passant and draw by triple repetitionValid claim for a draw in a blitz game?What should the penalty be for a player leaving the playing venue?Can a win be claimed on the second illegal move if the first wasn't raised?













4















I was asked for first time to help at a non federated tournament for kids to arbitre their games, played at 30 minutes with no increment time.
It was a scholar tournament and they made mistakes as leaving checkmates in one, let the queen to be captured etc.



At one game both kids arrived to a K+R K+R endgame. There was not a way to quickly gain the rook and win the game and both kids had time.
One kid claimed it was a draw. We were two arbiters (not experts, just two 1900 helping a bit at the club).
We claimed draw.



Was it a correct decission or we should have left the kids play?










share|improve this question
























  • Now the question is: Why on Earth don't you give time per move?

    – David
    4 hours ago











  • There was no increment at the tourney @David they both have 25 minutes on his clock anyhow so I guess I should have asked the kid that had not offered draw if he wanted to play the 50 moves

    – Universal_learner
    4 hours ago











  • Finish games are a source of trouble when players reach "zeitnot". It is also hard to keep track of the 50-move rule when players are not writing the moves. If all big tournaments have moves away from no-time-per-move games, that may be for a good reason

    – David
    4 hours ago












  • Yes I was wondering myself it would have been a task to count the 50 moves with no notation.

    – Universal_learner
    4 hours ago















4















I was asked for first time to help at a non federated tournament for kids to arbitre their games, played at 30 minutes with no increment time.
It was a scholar tournament and they made mistakes as leaving checkmates in one, let the queen to be captured etc.



At one game both kids arrived to a K+R K+R endgame. There was not a way to quickly gain the rook and win the game and both kids had time.
One kid claimed it was a draw. We were two arbiters (not experts, just two 1900 helping a bit at the club).
We claimed draw.



Was it a correct decission or we should have left the kids play?










share|improve this question
























  • Now the question is: Why on Earth don't you give time per move?

    – David
    4 hours ago











  • There was no increment at the tourney @David they both have 25 minutes on his clock anyhow so I guess I should have asked the kid that had not offered draw if he wanted to play the 50 moves

    – Universal_learner
    4 hours ago











  • Finish games are a source of trouble when players reach "zeitnot". It is also hard to keep track of the 50-move rule when players are not writing the moves. If all big tournaments have moves away from no-time-per-move games, that may be for a good reason

    – David
    4 hours ago












  • Yes I was wondering myself it would have been a task to count the 50 moves with no notation.

    – Universal_learner
    4 hours ago













4












4








4








I was asked for first time to help at a non federated tournament for kids to arbitre their games, played at 30 minutes with no increment time.
It was a scholar tournament and they made mistakes as leaving checkmates in one, let the queen to be captured etc.



At one game both kids arrived to a K+R K+R endgame. There was not a way to quickly gain the rook and win the game and both kids had time.
One kid claimed it was a draw. We were two arbiters (not experts, just two 1900 helping a bit at the club).
We claimed draw.



Was it a correct decission or we should have left the kids play?










share|improve this question
















I was asked for first time to help at a non federated tournament for kids to arbitre their games, played at 30 minutes with no increment time.
It was a scholar tournament and they made mistakes as leaving checkmates in one, let the queen to be captured etc.



At one game both kids arrived to a K+R K+R endgame. There was not a way to quickly gain the rook and win the game and both kids had time.
One kid claimed it was a draw. We were two arbiters (not experts, just two 1900 helping a bit at the club).
We claimed draw.



Was it a correct decission or we should have left the kids play?







rules tournament tournament-directors






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 8 hours ago







Universal_learner

















asked 8 hours ago









Universal_learnerUniversal_learner

2398




2398












  • Now the question is: Why on Earth don't you give time per move?

    – David
    4 hours ago











  • There was no increment at the tourney @David they both have 25 minutes on his clock anyhow so I guess I should have asked the kid that had not offered draw if he wanted to play the 50 moves

    – Universal_learner
    4 hours ago











  • Finish games are a source of trouble when players reach "zeitnot". It is also hard to keep track of the 50-move rule when players are not writing the moves. If all big tournaments have moves away from no-time-per-move games, that may be for a good reason

    – David
    4 hours ago












  • Yes I was wondering myself it would have been a task to count the 50 moves with no notation.

    – Universal_learner
    4 hours ago

















  • Now the question is: Why on Earth don't you give time per move?

    – David
    4 hours ago











  • There was no increment at the tourney @David they both have 25 minutes on his clock anyhow so I guess I should have asked the kid that had not offered draw if he wanted to play the 50 moves

    – Universal_learner
    4 hours ago











  • Finish games are a source of trouble when players reach "zeitnot". It is also hard to keep track of the 50-move rule when players are not writing the moves. If all big tournaments have moves away from no-time-per-move games, that may be for a good reason

    – David
    4 hours ago












  • Yes I was wondering myself it would have been a task to count the 50 moves with no notation.

    – Universal_learner
    4 hours ago
















Now the question is: Why on Earth don't you give time per move?

– David
4 hours ago





Now the question is: Why on Earth don't you give time per move?

– David
4 hours ago













There was no increment at the tourney @David they both have 25 minutes on his clock anyhow so I guess I should have asked the kid that had not offered draw if he wanted to play the 50 moves

– Universal_learner
4 hours ago





There was no increment at the tourney @David they both have 25 minutes on his clock anyhow so I guess I should have asked the kid that had not offered draw if he wanted to play the 50 moves

– Universal_learner
4 hours ago













Finish games are a source of trouble when players reach "zeitnot". It is also hard to keep track of the 50-move rule when players are not writing the moves. If all big tournaments have moves away from no-time-per-move games, that may be for a good reason

– David
4 hours ago






Finish games are a source of trouble when players reach "zeitnot". It is also hard to keep track of the 50-move rule when players are not writing the moves. If all big tournaments have moves away from no-time-per-move games, that may be for a good reason

– David
4 hours ago














Yes I was wondering myself it would have been a task to count the 50 moves with no notation.

– Universal_learner
4 hours ago





Yes I was wondering myself it would have been a task to count the 50 moves with no notation.

– Universal_learner
4 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















2














It is difficult to say what the exact rules should be if you aren't affiliated with a group that publishes rules for such situations. But I think your actions in this case were reasonable.



USCF rule 14H used to state that a player with less than two minutes on the clock (with no delay or increment being used) could make a claim of insufficient losing chances. Officially, that rule is no longer in effect, although a tournament is still allowed to use it as a variation without announcing it in advance.



If this variation is used, then rule 14I4 specifically states that rook vs rook should be a draw unless it is a position where there is a quick win. In general, if a class C player with ample time would not reasonably lose the position against a master, then the draw claim would be upheld, under this variation. This is regardless of the actual strengths of the players involved or how little time is on the clock.



Since there were more than 2 minutes on the clock ("both kids had time") technically this variation could not have been invoked. However, an attempted draw claim also constitutes a draw offer, which the other player may accept even if the claim is not upheld. According to your comment on another answer, you asked the other player if they agreed with the draw, and they seemed happy with it. That would be good enough for me. If neither player wanted to play on, there would be little point in forcing them to shuffle the pieces around for 50 moves. It's possible that novice players would not even be aware of the possibility of simply offering a draw.



The part of the USCF Official Rules of Chess book which contains the rules is now available online, by the way. I found it here.






share|improve this answer






























    1














    It is not a drawn position according to the rules, since there is sufficient mating material. It may be a draw from the point of view of endgame theory, but given players who make lots of mistakes, it wouldn't be all that surprising for one to lose to a tactic.



    I would let them play until the player who wanted a draw can claim it based on the 50-move rule or threefold repetition, or someone runs out of time or the game ends some other way. (Were they keeping notation? If not making a proper claim could be difficult, although an arbiter who witnesses the game could rule it a draw after 75 moves or fivefold repetition. Also note that USCF rules allow the arbiter or a deputy to count moves, if requested, for a 50-move claim under sudden death.)



    That said, for a "non federated kids tournament", I suppose you may have some leeway, so I wouldn't really fault you for ruling it a draw.






    share|improve this answer

























    • No notation they played very basic after some lessons at school. Made illegal moves etc. Well we may have asked the other kid if he agreed with the draw or wanted to play 50 moves. They get a cup as first and second with 3,5 point. They looked happy with the cup so I guess we were almost correct as the second kid was loosing before he loosed his two pawns and looked happy too :) he didn't claim for continue playing and both were happy :)

      – Universal_learner
      7 hours ago



















    1














    You can declare a draw and in fact you are required to declare a draw but only after you have counted 75 moves by each side without a capture or a pawn move. This is according to the FIDE Laws of Chess article 9.6.2:




    9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:



    9.6.1 the same position has appeared, as in 9.2.2 at least five times.



    9.6.2 any series of at least 75 moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last
    move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence




    Of course the players are also free to agree a draw between them.






    share|improve this answer






























      1














      It's better to let them play it out a bit and ideally only draw once reaching 50 moves. But if one of them is low on time (and their opponent is clearly just trying to flag them) then you should claim the draw.






      share|improve this answer























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        4 Answers
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        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        2














        It is difficult to say what the exact rules should be if you aren't affiliated with a group that publishes rules for such situations. But I think your actions in this case were reasonable.



        USCF rule 14H used to state that a player with less than two minutes on the clock (with no delay or increment being used) could make a claim of insufficient losing chances. Officially, that rule is no longer in effect, although a tournament is still allowed to use it as a variation without announcing it in advance.



        If this variation is used, then rule 14I4 specifically states that rook vs rook should be a draw unless it is a position where there is a quick win. In general, if a class C player with ample time would not reasonably lose the position against a master, then the draw claim would be upheld, under this variation. This is regardless of the actual strengths of the players involved or how little time is on the clock.



        Since there were more than 2 minutes on the clock ("both kids had time") technically this variation could not have been invoked. However, an attempted draw claim also constitutes a draw offer, which the other player may accept even if the claim is not upheld. According to your comment on another answer, you asked the other player if they agreed with the draw, and they seemed happy with it. That would be good enough for me. If neither player wanted to play on, there would be little point in forcing them to shuffle the pieces around for 50 moves. It's possible that novice players would not even be aware of the possibility of simply offering a draw.



        The part of the USCF Official Rules of Chess book which contains the rules is now available online, by the way. I found it here.






        share|improve this answer



























          2














          It is difficult to say what the exact rules should be if you aren't affiliated with a group that publishes rules for such situations. But I think your actions in this case were reasonable.



          USCF rule 14H used to state that a player with less than two minutes on the clock (with no delay or increment being used) could make a claim of insufficient losing chances. Officially, that rule is no longer in effect, although a tournament is still allowed to use it as a variation without announcing it in advance.



          If this variation is used, then rule 14I4 specifically states that rook vs rook should be a draw unless it is a position where there is a quick win. In general, if a class C player with ample time would not reasonably lose the position against a master, then the draw claim would be upheld, under this variation. This is regardless of the actual strengths of the players involved or how little time is on the clock.



          Since there were more than 2 minutes on the clock ("both kids had time") technically this variation could not have been invoked. However, an attempted draw claim also constitutes a draw offer, which the other player may accept even if the claim is not upheld. According to your comment on another answer, you asked the other player if they agreed with the draw, and they seemed happy with it. That would be good enough for me. If neither player wanted to play on, there would be little point in forcing them to shuffle the pieces around for 50 moves. It's possible that novice players would not even be aware of the possibility of simply offering a draw.



          The part of the USCF Official Rules of Chess book which contains the rules is now available online, by the way. I found it here.






          share|improve this answer

























            2












            2








            2







            It is difficult to say what the exact rules should be if you aren't affiliated with a group that publishes rules for such situations. But I think your actions in this case were reasonable.



            USCF rule 14H used to state that a player with less than two minutes on the clock (with no delay or increment being used) could make a claim of insufficient losing chances. Officially, that rule is no longer in effect, although a tournament is still allowed to use it as a variation without announcing it in advance.



            If this variation is used, then rule 14I4 specifically states that rook vs rook should be a draw unless it is a position where there is a quick win. In general, if a class C player with ample time would not reasonably lose the position against a master, then the draw claim would be upheld, under this variation. This is regardless of the actual strengths of the players involved or how little time is on the clock.



            Since there were more than 2 minutes on the clock ("both kids had time") technically this variation could not have been invoked. However, an attempted draw claim also constitutes a draw offer, which the other player may accept even if the claim is not upheld. According to your comment on another answer, you asked the other player if they agreed with the draw, and they seemed happy with it. That would be good enough for me. If neither player wanted to play on, there would be little point in forcing them to shuffle the pieces around for 50 moves. It's possible that novice players would not even be aware of the possibility of simply offering a draw.



            The part of the USCF Official Rules of Chess book which contains the rules is now available online, by the way. I found it here.






            share|improve this answer













            It is difficult to say what the exact rules should be if you aren't affiliated with a group that publishes rules for such situations. But I think your actions in this case were reasonable.



            USCF rule 14H used to state that a player with less than two minutes on the clock (with no delay or increment being used) could make a claim of insufficient losing chances. Officially, that rule is no longer in effect, although a tournament is still allowed to use it as a variation without announcing it in advance.



            If this variation is used, then rule 14I4 specifically states that rook vs rook should be a draw unless it is a position where there is a quick win. In general, if a class C player with ample time would not reasonably lose the position against a master, then the draw claim would be upheld, under this variation. This is regardless of the actual strengths of the players involved or how little time is on the clock.



            Since there were more than 2 minutes on the clock ("both kids had time") technically this variation could not have been invoked. However, an attempted draw claim also constitutes a draw offer, which the other player may accept even if the claim is not upheld. According to your comment on another answer, you asked the other player if they agreed with the draw, and they seemed happy with it. That would be good enough for me. If neither player wanted to play on, there would be little point in forcing them to shuffle the pieces around for 50 moves. It's possible that novice players would not even be aware of the possibility of simply offering a draw.



            The part of the USCF Official Rules of Chess book which contains the rules is now available online, by the way. I found it here.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 6 hours ago









            D MD M

            5,0371132




            5,0371132





















                1














                It is not a drawn position according to the rules, since there is sufficient mating material. It may be a draw from the point of view of endgame theory, but given players who make lots of mistakes, it wouldn't be all that surprising for one to lose to a tactic.



                I would let them play until the player who wanted a draw can claim it based on the 50-move rule or threefold repetition, or someone runs out of time or the game ends some other way. (Were they keeping notation? If not making a proper claim could be difficult, although an arbiter who witnesses the game could rule it a draw after 75 moves or fivefold repetition. Also note that USCF rules allow the arbiter or a deputy to count moves, if requested, for a 50-move claim under sudden death.)



                That said, for a "non federated kids tournament", I suppose you may have some leeway, so I wouldn't really fault you for ruling it a draw.






                share|improve this answer

























                • No notation they played very basic after some lessons at school. Made illegal moves etc. Well we may have asked the other kid if he agreed with the draw or wanted to play 50 moves. They get a cup as first and second with 3,5 point. They looked happy with the cup so I guess we were almost correct as the second kid was loosing before he loosed his two pawns and looked happy too :) he didn't claim for continue playing and both were happy :)

                  – Universal_learner
                  7 hours ago
















                1














                It is not a drawn position according to the rules, since there is sufficient mating material. It may be a draw from the point of view of endgame theory, but given players who make lots of mistakes, it wouldn't be all that surprising for one to lose to a tactic.



                I would let them play until the player who wanted a draw can claim it based on the 50-move rule or threefold repetition, or someone runs out of time or the game ends some other way. (Were they keeping notation? If not making a proper claim could be difficult, although an arbiter who witnesses the game could rule it a draw after 75 moves or fivefold repetition. Also note that USCF rules allow the arbiter or a deputy to count moves, if requested, for a 50-move claim under sudden death.)



                That said, for a "non federated kids tournament", I suppose you may have some leeway, so I wouldn't really fault you for ruling it a draw.






                share|improve this answer

























                • No notation they played very basic after some lessons at school. Made illegal moves etc. Well we may have asked the other kid if he agreed with the draw or wanted to play 50 moves. They get a cup as first and second with 3,5 point. They looked happy with the cup so I guess we were almost correct as the second kid was loosing before he loosed his two pawns and looked happy too :) he didn't claim for continue playing and both were happy :)

                  – Universal_learner
                  7 hours ago














                1












                1








                1







                It is not a drawn position according to the rules, since there is sufficient mating material. It may be a draw from the point of view of endgame theory, but given players who make lots of mistakes, it wouldn't be all that surprising for one to lose to a tactic.



                I would let them play until the player who wanted a draw can claim it based on the 50-move rule or threefold repetition, or someone runs out of time or the game ends some other way. (Were they keeping notation? If not making a proper claim could be difficult, although an arbiter who witnesses the game could rule it a draw after 75 moves or fivefold repetition. Also note that USCF rules allow the arbiter or a deputy to count moves, if requested, for a 50-move claim under sudden death.)



                That said, for a "non federated kids tournament", I suppose you may have some leeway, so I wouldn't really fault you for ruling it a draw.






                share|improve this answer















                It is not a drawn position according to the rules, since there is sufficient mating material. It may be a draw from the point of view of endgame theory, but given players who make lots of mistakes, it wouldn't be all that surprising for one to lose to a tactic.



                I would let them play until the player who wanted a draw can claim it based on the 50-move rule or threefold repetition, or someone runs out of time or the game ends some other way. (Were they keeping notation? If not making a proper claim could be difficult, although an arbiter who witnesses the game could rule it a draw after 75 moves or fivefold repetition. Also note that USCF rules allow the arbiter or a deputy to count moves, if requested, for a 50-move claim under sudden death.)



                That said, for a "non federated kids tournament", I suppose you may have some leeway, so I wouldn't really fault you for ruling it a draw.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 7 hours ago

























                answered 8 hours ago









                itubitub

                4,52311229




                4,52311229












                • No notation they played very basic after some lessons at school. Made illegal moves etc. Well we may have asked the other kid if he agreed with the draw or wanted to play 50 moves. They get a cup as first and second with 3,5 point. They looked happy with the cup so I guess we were almost correct as the second kid was loosing before he loosed his two pawns and looked happy too :) he didn't claim for continue playing and both were happy :)

                  – Universal_learner
                  7 hours ago


















                • No notation they played very basic after some lessons at school. Made illegal moves etc. Well we may have asked the other kid if he agreed with the draw or wanted to play 50 moves. They get a cup as first and second with 3,5 point. They looked happy with the cup so I guess we were almost correct as the second kid was loosing before he loosed his two pawns and looked happy too :) he didn't claim for continue playing and both were happy :)

                  – Universal_learner
                  7 hours ago

















                No notation they played very basic after some lessons at school. Made illegal moves etc. Well we may have asked the other kid if he agreed with the draw or wanted to play 50 moves. They get a cup as first and second with 3,5 point. They looked happy with the cup so I guess we were almost correct as the second kid was loosing before he loosed his two pawns and looked happy too :) he didn't claim for continue playing and both were happy :)

                – Universal_learner
                7 hours ago






                No notation they played very basic after some lessons at school. Made illegal moves etc. Well we may have asked the other kid if he agreed with the draw or wanted to play 50 moves. They get a cup as first and second with 3,5 point. They looked happy with the cup so I guess we were almost correct as the second kid was loosing before he loosed his two pawns and looked happy too :) he didn't claim for continue playing and both were happy :)

                – Universal_learner
                7 hours ago












                1














                You can declare a draw and in fact you are required to declare a draw but only after you have counted 75 moves by each side without a capture or a pawn move. This is according to the FIDE Laws of Chess article 9.6.2:




                9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:



                9.6.1 the same position has appeared, as in 9.2.2 at least five times.



                9.6.2 any series of at least 75 moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last
                move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence




                Of course the players are also free to agree a draw between them.






                share|improve this answer



























                  1














                  You can declare a draw and in fact you are required to declare a draw but only after you have counted 75 moves by each side without a capture or a pawn move. This is according to the FIDE Laws of Chess article 9.6.2:




                  9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:



                  9.6.1 the same position has appeared, as in 9.2.2 at least five times.



                  9.6.2 any series of at least 75 moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last
                  move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence




                  Of course the players are also free to agree a draw between them.






                  share|improve this answer

























                    1












                    1








                    1







                    You can declare a draw and in fact you are required to declare a draw but only after you have counted 75 moves by each side without a capture or a pawn move. This is according to the FIDE Laws of Chess article 9.6.2:




                    9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:



                    9.6.1 the same position has appeared, as in 9.2.2 at least five times.



                    9.6.2 any series of at least 75 moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last
                    move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence




                    Of course the players are also free to agree a draw between them.






                    share|improve this answer













                    You can declare a draw and in fact you are required to declare a draw but only after you have counted 75 moves by each side without a capture or a pawn move. This is according to the FIDE Laws of Chess article 9.6.2:




                    9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:



                    9.6.1 the same position has appeared, as in 9.2.2 at least five times.



                    9.6.2 any series of at least 75 moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. If the last
                    move resulted in checkmate, that shall take precedence




                    Of course the players are also free to agree a draw between them.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 6 hours ago









                    Brian TowersBrian Towers

                    18k33179




                    18k33179





















                        1














                        It's better to let them play it out a bit and ideally only draw once reaching 50 moves. But if one of them is low on time (and their opponent is clearly just trying to flag them) then you should claim the draw.






                        share|improve this answer



























                          1














                          It's better to let them play it out a bit and ideally only draw once reaching 50 moves. But if one of them is low on time (and their opponent is clearly just trying to flag them) then you should claim the draw.






                          share|improve this answer

























                            1












                            1








                            1







                            It's better to let them play it out a bit and ideally only draw once reaching 50 moves. But if one of them is low on time (and their opponent is clearly just trying to flag them) then you should claim the draw.






                            share|improve this answer













                            It's better to let them play it out a bit and ideally only draw once reaching 50 moves. But if one of them is low on time (and their opponent is clearly just trying to flag them) then you should claim the draw.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 4 hours ago









                            Inertial IgnoranceInertial Ignorance

                            5,911513




                            5,911513



























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