EU compensation - fire alarm at the Flight Crew's hotelIntra-EU flight cancelled <48 hours from departure, should you be able to ask for rebooking onto a different airline?During long on-train delays, what (if anything) should EU long distance operators be doing?How do I get compensation for a delayed flight?Flight compensationEU Air Passenger Rights for connecting flightHow can I verify if an airline is telling the truth about the reason for the flight's delay, in the context of EU delay compensation?Eligibility for a compensation under EC/261Flight compensation with agentFlight delay compensation under EC 261/2004 for a multi-leg trip on European carrier
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EU compensation - fire alarm at the Flight Crew's hotel
Intra-EU flight cancelled <48 hours from departure, should you be able to ask for rebooking onto a different airline?During long on-train delays, what (if anything) should EU long distance operators be doing?How do I get compensation for a delayed flight?Flight compensationEU Air Passenger Rights for connecting flightHow can I verify if an airline is telling the truth about the reason for the flight's delay, in the context of EU delay compensation?Eligibility for a compensation under EC/261Flight compensation with agentFlight delay compensation under EC 261/2004 for a multi-leg trip on European carrier
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I was on-board an afternoon flight from the EU, into the United States earlier last month.
This flight was delayed by about 3 hours, 30 minutes.
As this flight was delayed for over 3 hours, without any explanation provided to me, I contacted the Airline seeking compensation under EC Regulation 261/2004.
I've gotten a response back from them today, explaining that I'm not entitled to compensation as there was a fire alarm at the crew's hotel.
I assume this is the night before.
Is this a valid Extraordinary Circumstances exception under the EU 261/2004 Regulation?
eu delays ec261 comepenstation
add a comment
|
I was on-board an afternoon flight from the EU, into the United States earlier last month.
This flight was delayed by about 3 hours, 30 minutes.
As this flight was delayed for over 3 hours, without any explanation provided to me, I contacted the Airline seeking compensation under EC Regulation 261/2004.
I've gotten a response back from them today, explaining that I'm not entitled to compensation as there was a fire alarm at the crew's hotel.
I assume this is the night before.
Is this a valid Extraordinary Circumstances exception under the EU 261/2004 Regulation?
eu delays ec261 comepenstation
1
You got the usual answer. This is normal. Just insist, but do not lose too much time. Prepare documentation for country authority. By insisting, you get from 10% to 60% probabilities to get compensation. With country authority you get 95% They just try to discourage people on valid cases.
– Giacomo Catenazzi
7 hours ago
1
Did the ground crew or flight crew truly not say anything about the reason for the delay? Regardless, you are entitled to evidence from the airline establishing that there really was an alarm and an explanation of why it delayed the flight. Do not believe anything they tell you unless it is supported by evidence from another source, preferably from a public authority like the fire department. As the article in Henning Makholm's answer points out, they have to give you the evidence to avoid paying the compensation; they can't get out of it just by making unsupported claims.
– phoog
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
I was on-board an afternoon flight from the EU, into the United States earlier last month.
This flight was delayed by about 3 hours, 30 minutes.
As this flight was delayed for over 3 hours, without any explanation provided to me, I contacted the Airline seeking compensation under EC Regulation 261/2004.
I've gotten a response back from them today, explaining that I'm not entitled to compensation as there was a fire alarm at the crew's hotel.
I assume this is the night before.
Is this a valid Extraordinary Circumstances exception under the EU 261/2004 Regulation?
eu delays ec261 comepenstation
I was on-board an afternoon flight from the EU, into the United States earlier last month.
This flight was delayed by about 3 hours, 30 minutes.
As this flight was delayed for over 3 hours, without any explanation provided to me, I contacted the Airline seeking compensation under EC Regulation 261/2004.
I've gotten a response back from them today, explaining that I'm not entitled to compensation as there was a fire alarm at the crew's hotel.
I assume this is the night before.
Is this a valid Extraordinary Circumstances exception under the EU 261/2004 Regulation?
eu delays ec261 comepenstation
eu delays ec261 comepenstation
edited 8 hours ago
Uciebila
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1
You got the usual answer. This is normal. Just insist, but do not lose too much time. Prepare documentation for country authority. By insisting, you get from 10% to 60% probabilities to get compensation. With country authority you get 95% They just try to discourage people on valid cases.
– Giacomo Catenazzi
7 hours ago
1
Did the ground crew or flight crew truly not say anything about the reason for the delay? Regardless, you are entitled to evidence from the airline establishing that there really was an alarm and an explanation of why it delayed the flight. Do not believe anything they tell you unless it is supported by evidence from another source, preferably from a public authority like the fire department. As the article in Henning Makholm's answer points out, they have to give you the evidence to avoid paying the compensation; they can't get out of it just by making unsupported claims.
– phoog
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
1
You got the usual answer. This is normal. Just insist, but do not lose too much time. Prepare documentation for country authority. By insisting, you get from 10% to 60% probabilities to get compensation. With country authority you get 95% They just try to discourage people on valid cases.
– Giacomo Catenazzi
7 hours ago
1
Did the ground crew or flight crew truly not say anything about the reason for the delay? Regardless, you are entitled to evidence from the airline establishing that there really was an alarm and an explanation of why it delayed the flight. Do not believe anything they tell you unless it is supported by evidence from another source, preferably from a public authority like the fire department. As the article in Henning Makholm's answer points out, they have to give you the evidence to avoid paying the compensation; they can't get out of it just by making unsupported claims.
– phoog
7 hours ago
1
1
You got the usual answer. This is normal. Just insist, but do not lose too much time. Prepare documentation for country authority. By insisting, you get from 10% to 60% probabilities to get compensation. With country authority you get 95% They just try to discourage people on valid cases.
– Giacomo Catenazzi
7 hours ago
You got the usual answer. This is normal. Just insist, but do not lose too much time. Prepare documentation for country authority. By insisting, you get from 10% to 60% probabilities to get compensation. With country authority you get 95% They just try to discourage people on valid cases.
– Giacomo Catenazzi
7 hours ago
1
1
Did the ground crew or flight crew truly not say anything about the reason for the delay? Regardless, you are entitled to evidence from the airline establishing that there really was an alarm and an explanation of why it delayed the flight. Do not believe anything they tell you unless it is supported by evidence from another source, preferably from a public authority like the fire department. As the article in Henning Makholm's answer points out, they have to give you the evidence to avoid paying the compensation; they can't get out of it just by making unsupported claims.
– phoog
7 hours ago
Did the ground crew or flight crew truly not say anything about the reason for the delay? Regardless, you are entitled to evidence from the airline establishing that there really was an alarm and an explanation of why it delayed the flight. Do not believe anything they tell you unless it is supported by evidence from another source, preferably from a public authority like the fire department. As the article in Henning Makholm's answer points out, they have to give you the evidence to avoid paying the compensation; they can't get out of it just by making unsupported claims.
– phoog
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
The courts (up to and including the European Court of Justice, which has the final say) have followed a slightly zig-zagging course in interpreting the "extraordinary circumstances" concept, so it is not possible to predict with 100% certainty how they'd deal with a case such as this where there's no explicit precedent. The best one can say is that the ECJ tends to be pretty consumer-friendly in its application of 261/2004 -- but that is not a guarantee.
Originally it appears that "extraordinary circumstances" were intended to speak about Eyjafjallajökull-level calamities that might bankrupt even a well-run airline if they had to compensate for everything. Over time, airlines have gotten away with applying it rather more broadly than that, but the general trend is in your favor. For example, it has been decided that random equipment failures that delay one particular flight/aircraft is not an extraordinary circumstance but a risk of doing business that the airline ought to factor into their fares.
Here's a write-up from a law firm specializing in these claims that looks like a good overview of the binding precedent that exists.
Now, assuming that you are entitled to compensation in your situation, you may have to sue (or make a credible threat to sue) the airline to collect on it. In principle you can ask the relevant National Enforcement Body for an intervention, but in practice they're pretty toothless when the airline is set on refusing compensation. So you might as well lawyer up now if you want to take this further.
There are many legal agencies that specialize in compensation claims on a no-cure-no-pay basis. You might want to start by seeing if any of them will take your case. If they find it too complex or uncertain for them, you'll have to engage an ordinary practicing lawyer, which could become rather more expensive than the compensation you're after, especially if you lose. In some countries it's common for home insurances to provide legal cover that might be applicable to your situation; typically the lawyer will deal with the insurance for you.
The article you link to suggests to me that the fire alarm would constitute an extraordinary circumstance, since it's not "inherent in the normal exercise of activity," but that the passenger is entitled to and should request evidence supporting the claim that there was a fire alarm and an explanation of why a fire alarm at that time delayed the crew.
– phoog
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
As a crewmember, I can explain why is this "extraordinary circumstances".
Crewmembers, especially flight deck crew, while on duty (this includes the time they spent at a destination) is controlled by many rules when it comes to "rest", how long they need to sleep and when can they drink alcohol, etc. Even rules regarding diving and skydiving are controlled as it might affect the crew health.
However, if the crew did not get the minimum required rest before a flight (usually 8-12 hrs of pure rest) they are considered "NOT LEGAL" to fly, as their performance might bot be optimum and might cause a catastrophe, especially if the flight is a long haul flight (EU to US for example).
Lack of sleep, can lead to something known in the aviation as "unsafe level of fatigue" which is known to be the reason of many incidents and accidents. Therefore, many countries including the US and all of the EU and many other parts of the world have very strict rules when it comes to crew fatigue, this is called "fatigue risk management".
I know that it seems "silly" to passengers who were delayed for a couple of hours, but flight crew are usually under a great stress when flying and they are responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, they know that so they will never take a chance to operate a heavy machinery while on an unsafe level of fatigue.
Back to your case, this has happened to me personally, you are sleeping at your room, it's 03:00 after midnight and you have a pickup at 08:00 in the morning, some guest in the hotel decides to smoke, fire alarms goes off, speakers all over the hotel ask the guests to leave the hotel, fire trucks arrive, etc. etc., the whole process will take anything from 1 hour to 2 hours.
The crew goes back to the room, can't get back to sleep, they call the crew control/flight operations and report fatigue, the crew control calculates the rest required and informs the crew, the passengers usually gets informed if the delay is significant and you know the rest of the story.
This is only happens if the crew are spending a night somewhere away from their base, if this happened at a crew base then some other crew will cover the flight.
Now, is this considered an "extraordinary circumstance"? my opinion: YES it is!
Who to blame? well, the guy who smoked? a faulty smoke detector? but for sure not the airline as they were simply ensuring the safety of the passengers.
It's also possible that the crew were simply prohibited from packing their things up and going to the airport if there's a fire alarm around, say, an hour before they're scheduled to check out.
– phoog
1 hour ago
I don't think "Who to blame" is a very useful question to ask when considering whether circumstances are extraordinary or not. For example, it is settled that a bird strike is not an extraordinary circumstance, and there definitely isn't anyone to blame for that.
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
@phoog a friend of mine spent the whole night outside the hotel because there was a real fire, the flight was cancelled the next day because the crew literally didn't get a minute of sleep.
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@HenningMakholm hence "my opinion".
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@NeanDerThal I don't doubt it. But being unable to get your stuff out of your room because of a fire during breakfast would also delay a flight without crew rest rules being involved.
– phoog
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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active
oldest
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The courts (up to and including the European Court of Justice, which has the final say) have followed a slightly zig-zagging course in interpreting the "extraordinary circumstances" concept, so it is not possible to predict with 100% certainty how they'd deal with a case such as this where there's no explicit precedent. The best one can say is that the ECJ tends to be pretty consumer-friendly in its application of 261/2004 -- but that is not a guarantee.
Originally it appears that "extraordinary circumstances" were intended to speak about Eyjafjallajökull-level calamities that might bankrupt even a well-run airline if they had to compensate for everything. Over time, airlines have gotten away with applying it rather more broadly than that, but the general trend is in your favor. For example, it has been decided that random equipment failures that delay one particular flight/aircraft is not an extraordinary circumstance but a risk of doing business that the airline ought to factor into their fares.
Here's a write-up from a law firm specializing in these claims that looks like a good overview of the binding precedent that exists.
Now, assuming that you are entitled to compensation in your situation, you may have to sue (or make a credible threat to sue) the airline to collect on it. In principle you can ask the relevant National Enforcement Body for an intervention, but in practice they're pretty toothless when the airline is set on refusing compensation. So you might as well lawyer up now if you want to take this further.
There are many legal agencies that specialize in compensation claims on a no-cure-no-pay basis. You might want to start by seeing if any of them will take your case. If they find it too complex or uncertain for them, you'll have to engage an ordinary practicing lawyer, which could become rather more expensive than the compensation you're after, especially if you lose. In some countries it's common for home insurances to provide legal cover that might be applicable to your situation; typically the lawyer will deal with the insurance for you.
The article you link to suggests to me that the fire alarm would constitute an extraordinary circumstance, since it's not "inherent in the normal exercise of activity," but that the passenger is entitled to and should request evidence supporting the claim that there was a fire alarm and an explanation of why a fire alarm at that time delayed the crew.
– phoog
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
The courts (up to and including the European Court of Justice, which has the final say) have followed a slightly zig-zagging course in interpreting the "extraordinary circumstances" concept, so it is not possible to predict with 100% certainty how they'd deal with a case such as this where there's no explicit precedent. The best one can say is that the ECJ tends to be pretty consumer-friendly in its application of 261/2004 -- but that is not a guarantee.
Originally it appears that "extraordinary circumstances" were intended to speak about Eyjafjallajökull-level calamities that might bankrupt even a well-run airline if they had to compensate for everything. Over time, airlines have gotten away with applying it rather more broadly than that, but the general trend is in your favor. For example, it has been decided that random equipment failures that delay one particular flight/aircraft is not an extraordinary circumstance but a risk of doing business that the airline ought to factor into their fares.
Here's a write-up from a law firm specializing in these claims that looks like a good overview of the binding precedent that exists.
Now, assuming that you are entitled to compensation in your situation, you may have to sue (or make a credible threat to sue) the airline to collect on it. In principle you can ask the relevant National Enforcement Body for an intervention, but in practice they're pretty toothless when the airline is set on refusing compensation. So you might as well lawyer up now if you want to take this further.
There are many legal agencies that specialize in compensation claims on a no-cure-no-pay basis. You might want to start by seeing if any of them will take your case. If they find it too complex or uncertain for them, you'll have to engage an ordinary practicing lawyer, which could become rather more expensive than the compensation you're after, especially if you lose. In some countries it's common for home insurances to provide legal cover that might be applicable to your situation; typically the lawyer will deal with the insurance for you.
The article you link to suggests to me that the fire alarm would constitute an extraordinary circumstance, since it's not "inherent in the normal exercise of activity," but that the passenger is entitled to and should request evidence supporting the claim that there was a fire alarm and an explanation of why a fire alarm at that time delayed the crew.
– phoog
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
The courts (up to and including the European Court of Justice, which has the final say) have followed a slightly zig-zagging course in interpreting the "extraordinary circumstances" concept, so it is not possible to predict with 100% certainty how they'd deal with a case such as this where there's no explicit precedent. The best one can say is that the ECJ tends to be pretty consumer-friendly in its application of 261/2004 -- but that is not a guarantee.
Originally it appears that "extraordinary circumstances" were intended to speak about Eyjafjallajökull-level calamities that might bankrupt even a well-run airline if they had to compensate for everything. Over time, airlines have gotten away with applying it rather more broadly than that, but the general trend is in your favor. For example, it has been decided that random equipment failures that delay one particular flight/aircraft is not an extraordinary circumstance but a risk of doing business that the airline ought to factor into their fares.
Here's a write-up from a law firm specializing in these claims that looks like a good overview of the binding precedent that exists.
Now, assuming that you are entitled to compensation in your situation, you may have to sue (or make a credible threat to sue) the airline to collect on it. In principle you can ask the relevant National Enforcement Body for an intervention, but in practice they're pretty toothless when the airline is set on refusing compensation. So you might as well lawyer up now if you want to take this further.
There are many legal agencies that specialize in compensation claims on a no-cure-no-pay basis. You might want to start by seeing if any of them will take your case. If they find it too complex or uncertain for them, you'll have to engage an ordinary practicing lawyer, which could become rather more expensive than the compensation you're after, especially if you lose. In some countries it's common for home insurances to provide legal cover that might be applicable to your situation; typically the lawyer will deal with the insurance for you.
The courts (up to and including the European Court of Justice, which has the final say) have followed a slightly zig-zagging course in interpreting the "extraordinary circumstances" concept, so it is not possible to predict with 100% certainty how they'd deal with a case such as this where there's no explicit precedent. The best one can say is that the ECJ tends to be pretty consumer-friendly in its application of 261/2004 -- but that is not a guarantee.
Originally it appears that "extraordinary circumstances" were intended to speak about Eyjafjallajökull-level calamities that might bankrupt even a well-run airline if they had to compensate for everything. Over time, airlines have gotten away with applying it rather more broadly than that, but the general trend is in your favor. For example, it has been decided that random equipment failures that delay one particular flight/aircraft is not an extraordinary circumstance but a risk of doing business that the airline ought to factor into their fares.
Here's a write-up from a law firm specializing in these claims that looks like a good overview of the binding precedent that exists.
Now, assuming that you are entitled to compensation in your situation, you may have to sue (or make a credible threat to sue) the airline to collect on it. In principle you can ask the relevant National Enforcement Body for an intervention, but in practice they're pretty toothless when the airline is set on refusing compensation. So you might as well lawyer up now if you want to take this further.
There are many legal agencies that specialize in compensation claims on a no-cure-no-pay basis. You might want to start by seeing if any of them will take your case. If they find it too complex or uncertain for them, you'll have to engage an ordinary practicing lawyer, which could become rather more expensive than the compensation you're after, especially if you lose. In some countries it's common for home insurances to provide legal cover that might be applicable to your situation; typically the lawyer will deal with the insurance for you.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
53k9 gold badges132 silver badges194 bronze badges
53k9 gold badges132 silver badges194 bronze badges
The article you link to suggests to me that the fire alarm would constitute an extraordinary circumstance, since it's not "inherent in the normal exercise of activity," but that the passenger is entitled to and should request evidence supporting the claim that there was a fire alarm and an explanation of why a fire alarm at that time delayed the crew.
– phoog
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
The article you link to suggests to me that the fire alarm would constitute an extraordinary circumstance, since it's not "inherent in the normal exercise of activity," but that the passenger is entitled to and should request evidence supporting the claim that there was a fire alarm and an explanation of why a fire alarm at that time delayed the crew.
– phoog
7 hours ago
The article you link to suggests to me that the fire alarm would constitute an extraordinary circumstance, since it's not "inherent in the normal exercise of activity," but that the passenger is entitled to and should request evidence supporting the claim that there was a fire alarm and an explanation of why a fire alarm at that time delayed the crew.
– phoog
7 hours ago
The article you link to suggests to me that the fire alarm would constitute an extraordinary circumstance, since it's not "inherent in the normal exercise of activity," but that the passenger is entitled to and should request evidence supporting the claim that there was a fire alarm and an explanation of why a fire alarm at that time delayed the crew.
– phoog
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
As a crewmember, I can explain why is this "extraordinary circumstances".
Crewmembers, especially flight deck crew, while on duty (this includes the time they spent at a destination) is controlled by many rules when it comes to "rest", how long they need to sleep and when can they drink alcohol, etc. Even rules regarding diving and skydiving are controlled as it might affect the crew health.
However, if the crew did not get the minimum required rest before a flight (usually 8-12 hrs of pure rest) they are considered "NOT LEGAL" to fly, as their performance might bot be optimum and might cause a catastrophe, especially if the flight is a long haul flight (EU to US for example).
Lack of sleep, can lead to something known in the aviation as "unsafe level of fatigue" which is known to be the reason of many incidents and accidents. Therefore, many countries including the US and all of the EU and many other parts of the world have very strict rules when it comes to crew fatigue, this is called "fatigue risk management".
I know that it seems "silly" to passengers who were delayed for a couple of hours, but flight crew are usually under a great stress when flying and they are responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, they know that so they will never take a chance to operate a heavy machinery while on an unsafe level of fatigue.
Back to your case, this has happened to me personally, you are sleeping at your room, it's 03:00 after midnight and you have a pickup at 08:00 in the morning, some guest in the hotel decides to smoke, fire alarms goes off, speakers all over the hotel ask the guests to leave the hotel, fire trucks arrive, etc. etc., the whole process will take anything from 1 hour to 2 hours.
The crew goes back to the room, can't get back to sleep, they call the crew control/flight operations and report fatigue, the crew control calculates the rest required and informs the crew, the passengers usually gets informed if the delay is significant and you know the rest of the story.
This is only happens if the crew are spending a night somewhere away from their base, if this happened at a crew base then some other crew will cover the flight.
Now, is this considered an "extraordinary circumstance"? my opinion: YES it is!
Who to blame? well, the guy who smoked? a faulty smoke detector? but for sure not the airline as they were simply ensuring the safety of the passengers.
It's also possible that the crew were simply prohibited from packing their things up and going to the airport if there's a fire alarm around, say, an hour before they're scheduled to check out.
– phoog
1 hour ago
I don't think "Who to blame" is a very useful question to ask when considering whether circumstances are extraordinary or not. For example, it is settled that a bird strike is not an extraordinary circumstance, and there definitely isn't anyone to blame for that.
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
@phoog a friend of mine spent the whole night outside the hotel because there was a real fire, the flight was cancelled the next day because the crew literally didn't get a minute of sleep.
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@HenningMakholm hence "my opinion".
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@NeanDerThal I don't doubt it. But being unable to get your stuff out of your room because of a fire during breakfast would also delay a flight without crew rest rules being involved.
– phoog
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
As a crewmember, I can explain why is this "extraordinary circumstances".
Crewmembers, especially flight deck crew, while on duty (this includes the time they spent at a destination) is controlled by many rules when it comes to "rest", how long they need to sleep and when can they drink alcohol, etc. Even rules regarding diving and skydiving are controlled as it might affect the crew health.
However, if the crew did not get the minimum required rest before a flight (usually 8-12 hrs of pure rest) they are considered "NOT LEGAL" to fly, as their performance might bot be optimum and might cause a catastrophe, especially if the flight is a long haul flight (EU to US for example).
Lack of sleep, can lead to something known in the aviation as "unsafe level of fatigue" which is known to be the reason of many incidents and accidents. Therefore, many countries including the US and all of the EU and many other parts of the world have very strict rules when it comes to crew fatigue, this is called "fatigue risk management".
I know that it seems "silly" to passengers who were delayed for a couple of hours, but flight crew are usually under a great stress when flying and they are responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, they know that so they will never take a chance to operate a heavy machinery while on an unsafe level of fatigue.
Back to your case, this has happened to me personally, you are sleeping at your room, it's 03:00 after midnight and you have a pickup at 08:00 in the morning, some guest in the hotel decides to smoke, fire alarms goes off, speakers all over the hotel ask the guests to leave the hotel, fire trucks arrive, etc. etc., the whole process will take anything from 1 hour to 2 hours.
The crew goes back to the room, can't get back to sleep, they call the crew control/flight operations and report fatigue, the crew control calculates the rest required and informs the crew, the passengers usually gets informed if the delay is significant and you know the rest of the story.
This is only happens if the crew are spending a night somewhere away from their base, if this happened at a crew base then some other crew will cover the flight.
Now, is this considered an "extraordinary circumstance"? my opinion: YES it is!
Who to blame? well, the guy who smoked? a faulty smoke detector? but for sure not the airline as they were simply ensuring the safety of the passengers.
It's also possible that the crew were simply prohibited from packing their things up and going to the airport if there's a fire alarm around, say, an hour before they're scheduled to check out.
– phoog
1 hour ago
I don't think "Who to blame" is a very useful question to ask when considering whether circumstances are extraordinary or not. For example, it is settled that a bird strike is not an extraordinary circumstance, and there definitely isn't anyone to blame for that.
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
@phoog a friend of mine spent the whole night outside the hotel because there was a real fire, the flight was cancelled the next day because the crew literally didn't get a minute of sleep.
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@HenningMakholm hence "my opinion".
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@NeanDerThal I don't doubt it. But being unable to get your stuff out of your room because of a fire during breakfast would also delay a flight without crew rest rules being involved.
– phoog
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
As a crewmember, I can explain why is this "extraordinary circumstances".
Crewmembers, especially flight deck crew, while on duty (this includes the time they spent at a destination) is controlled by many rules when it comes to "rest", how long they need to sleep and when can they drink alcohol, etc. Even rules regarding diving and skydiving are controlled as it might affect the crew health.
However, if the crew did not get the minimum required rest before a flight (usually 8-12 hrs of pure rest) they are considered "NOT LEGAL" to fly, as their performance might bot be optimum and might cause a catastrophe, especially if the flight is a long haul flight (EU to US for example).
Lack of sleep, can lead to something known in the aviation as "unsafe level of fatigue" which is known to be the reason of many incidents and accidents. Therefore, many countries including the US and all of the EU and many other parts of the world have very strict rules when it comes to crew fatigue, this is called "fatigue risk management".
I know that it seems "silly" to passengers who were delayed for a couple of hours, but flight crew are usually under a great stress when flying and they are responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, they know that so they will never take a chance to operate a heavy machinery while on an unsafe level of fatigue.
Back to your case, this has happened to me personally, you are sleeping at your room, it's 03:00 after midnight and you have a pickup at 08:00 in the morning, some guest in the hotel decides to smoke, fire alarms goes off, speakers all over the hotel ask the guests to leave the hotel, fire trucks arrive, etc. etc., the whole process will take anything from 1 hour to 2 hours.
The crew goes back to the room, can't get back to sleep, they call the crew control/flight operations and report fatigue, the crew control calculates the rest required and informs the crew, the passengers usually gets informed if the delay is significant and you know the rest of the story.
This is only happens if the crew are spending a night somewhere away from their base, if this happened at a crew base then some other crew will cover the flight.
Now, is this considered an "extraordinary circumstance"? my opinion: YES it is!
Who to blame? well, the guy who smoked? a faulty smoke detector? but for sure not the airline as they were simply ensuring the safety of the passengers.
As a crewmember, I can explain why is this "extraordinary circumstances".
Crewmembers, especially flight deck crew, while on duty (this includes the time they spent at a destination) is controlled by many rules when it comes to "rest", how long they need to sleep and when can they drink alcohol, etc. Even rules regarding diving and skydiving are controlled as it might affect the crew health.
However, if the crew did not get the minimum required rest before a flight (usually 8-12 hrs of pure rest) they are considered "NOT LEGAL" to fly, as their performance might bot be optimum and might cause a catastrophe, especially if the flight is a long haul flight (EU to US for example).
Lack of sleep, can lead to something known in the aviation as "unsafe level of fatigue" which is known to be the reason of many incidents and accidents. Therefore, many countries including the US and all of the EU and many other parts of the world have very strict rules when it comes to crew fatigue, this is called "fatigue risk management".
I know that it seems "silly" to passengers who were delayed for a couple of hours, but flight crew are usually under a great stress when flying and they are responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, they know that so they will never take a chance to operate a heavy machinery while on an unsafe level of fatigue.
Back to your case, this has happened to me personally, you are sleeping at your room, it's 03:00 after midnight and you have a pickup at 08:00 in the morning, some guest in the hotel decides to smoke, fire alarms goes off, speakers all over the hotel ask the guests to leave the hotel, fire trucks arrive, etc. etc., the whole process will take anything from 1 hour to 2 hours.
The crew goes back to the room, can't get back to sleep, they call the crew control/flight operations and report fatigue, the crew control calculates the rest required and informs the crew, the passengers usually gets informed if the delay is significant and you know the rest of the story.
This is only happens if the crew are spending a night somewhere away from their base, if this happened at a crew base then some other crew will cover the flight.
Now, is this considered an "extraordinary circumstance"? my opinion: YES it is!
Who to blame? well, the guy who smoked? a faulty smoke detector? but for sure not the airline as they were simply ensuring the safety of the passengers.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 2 hours ago
Nean Der ThalNean Der Thal
71.9k28 gold badges269 silver badges370 bronze badges
71.9k28 gold badges269 silver badges370 bronze badges
It's also possible that the crew were simply prohibited from packing their things up and going to the airport if there's a fire alarm around, say, an hour before they're scheduled to check out.
– phoog
1 hour ago
I don't think "Who to blame" is a very useful question to ask when considering whether circumstances are extraordinary or not. For example, it is settled that a bird strike is not an extraordinary circumstance, and there definitely isn't anyone to blame for that.
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
@phoog a friend of mine spent the whole night outside the hotel because there was a real fire, the flight was cancelled the next day because the crew literally didn't get a minute of sleep.
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@HenningMakholm hence "my opinion".
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@NeanDerThal I don't doubt it. But being unable to get your stuff out of your room because of a fire during breakfast would also delay a flight without crew rest rules being involved.
– phoog
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
It's also possible that the crew were simply prohibited from packing their things up and going to the airport if there's a fire alarm around, say, an hour before they're scheduled to check out.
– phoog
1 hour ago
I don't think "Who to blame" is a very useful question to ask when considering whether circumstances are extraordinary or not. For example, it is settled that a bird strike is not an extraordinary circumstance, and there definitely isn't anyone to blame for that.
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
@phoog a friend of mine spent the whole night outside the hotel because there was a real fire, the flight was cancelled the next day because the crew literally didn't get a minute of sleep.
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@HenningMakholm hence "my opinion".
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@NeanDerThal I don't doubt it. But being unable to get your stuff out of your room because of a fire during breakfast would also delay a flight without crew rest rules being involved.
– phoog
1 hour ago
It's also possible that the crew were simply prohibited from packing their things up and going to the airport if there's a fire alarm around, say, an hour before they're scheduled to check out.
– phoog
1 hour ago
It's also possible that the crew were simply prohibited from packing their things up and going to the airport if there's a fire alarm around, say, an hour before they're scheduled to check out.
– phoog
1 hour ago
I don't think "Who to blame" is a very useful question to ask when considering whether circumstances are extraordinary or not. For example, it is settled that a bird strike is not an extraordinary circumstance, and there definitely isn't anyone to blame for that.
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
I don't think "Who to blame" is a very useful question to ask when considering whether circumstances are extraordinary or not. For example, it is settled that a bird strike is not an extraordinary circumstance, and there definitely isn't anyone to blame for that.
– Henning Makholm
1 hour ago
@phoog a friend of mine spent the whole night outside the hotel because there was a real fire, the flight was cancelled the next day because the crew literally didn't get a minute of sleep.
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@phoog a friend of mine spent the whole night outside the hotel because there was a real fire, the flight was cancelled the next day because the crew literally didn't get a minute of sleep.
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@HenningMakholm hence "my opinion".
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@HenningMakholm hence "my opinion".
– Nean Der Thal
1 hour ago
@NeanDerThal I don't doubt it. But being unable to get your stuff out of your room because of a fire during breakfast would also delay a flight without crew rest rules being involved.
– phoog
1 hour ago
@NeanDerThal I don't doubt it. But being unable to get your stuff out of your room because of a fire during breakfast would also delay a flight without crew rest rules being involved.
– phoog
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
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1
You got the usual answer. This is normal. Just insist, but do not lose too much time. Prepare documentation for country authority. By insisting, you get from 10% to 60% probabilities to get compensation. With country authority you get 95% They just try to discourage people on valid cases.
– Giacomo Catenazzi
7 hours ago
1
Did the ground crew or flight crew truly not say anything about the reason for the delay? Regardless, you are entitled to evidence from the airline establishing that there really was an alarm and an explanation of why it delayed the flight. Do not believe anything they tell you unless it is supported by evidence from another source, preferably from a public authority like the fire department. As the article in Henning Makholm's answer points out, they have to give you the evidence to avoid paying the compensation; they can't get out of it just by making unsupported claims.
– phoog
7 hours ago