Are there any instances in Tanach of Lashon Hara said purely for non-constructive purposes?Are there any jokes in Tanach?What puns are there in Tanach?Is there a book with well sourced “discussions” on hilchos lashon hara?Can one allow lashon hara to be said about oneself?How many words are there in Tanach?How do you do teshuva for saying lashon hara about someone that already passed away?Are there any examples in the Tanach where somebody is being cynical?
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Are there any instances in Tanach of Lashon Hara said purely for non-constructive purposes?
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Are there any instances in Tanach of Lashon Hara said purely for non-constructive purposes?
Are there any jokes in Tanach?What puns are there in Tanach?Is there a book with well sourced “discussions” on hilchos lashon hara?Can one allow lashon hara to be said about oneself?How many words are there in Tanach?How do you do teshuva for saying lashon hara about someone that already passed away?Are there any examples in the Tanach where somebody is being cynical?
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I can think of several said with proper intentions - for instance, Miriam (Bamidbar ch. 12) wasn’t trying to harm Moshe with her speech; likewise those who told Gedaliah that he was to be killed by Yishmael (Yirmiya 40:14) were trying to save him.
Are there any instances in Tanach of people who spoke Lashon Hara about other people (to the exclusion of ex. the Meraglim) purely to harm the one about whom the Lashon Hara was said?
sources-mekorot tanach lashon-hara-slander
asked 8 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
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I can think of several said with proper intentions - for instance, Miriam (Bamidbar ch. 12) wasn’t trying to harm Moshe with her speech; likewise those who told Gedaliah that he was to be killed by Yishmael (Yirmiya 40:14) were trying to save him.
Are there any instances in Tanach of people who spoke Lashon Hara about other people (to the exclusion of ex. the Meraglim) purely to harm the one about whom the Lashon Hara was said?
sources-mekorot tanach lashon-hara-slander
asked 8 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
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1
Lots of David's enemies (Doeg, the Zifim, ...), no?
– Meir
8 hours ago
@Meir I’m not convinced about the Zifim; Rashi sounds like they thought they were doing the right thing by handing him over, but Doeg surely is an answer. How did I forget about them?
– DonielF
8 hours ago
Re the Lashon Hara that Miriam spoke, isn't there a Midrash that explains that Miriam relayed the fact that Tzippora didn't have relations with Moshe, and she relayed that story. Of what good use was that?
– DanF
8 hours ago
@DanF See Rashi on those Pesukim - ומה מרים שלא נתכונה לגנותו. She was wrong and was punished accordingly, but she didn’t intend to harm him in doing so.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
@DonielF Doeg also thought he was doing the right thing as he thought David was Moreid Bemalchus and convinced of his ill lineage. It seems that the reason why he is enumerated in Chelek as not going to Olam Haba is for having never accepted higher authority of Shmuels Psak that Dovid was Kosher and annointed justifiably as King unlike say Yonasan who accepted Dovid in spite of losing the throne
– user15464
1 hour ago
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I can think of several said with proper intentions - for instance, Miriam (Bamidbar ch. 12) wasn’t trying to harm Moshe with her speech; likewise those who told Gedaliah that he was to be killed by Yishmael (Yirmiya 40:14) were trying to save him.
Are there any instances in Tanach of people who spoke Lashon Hara about other people (to the exclusion of ex. the Meraglim) purely to harm the one about whom the Lashon Hara was said?
sources-mekorot tanach lashon-hara-slander
asked 8 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
20.6k2 gold badges30 silver badges98 bronze badges
I can think of several said with proper intentions - for instance, Miriam (Bamidbar ch. 12) wasn’t trying to harm Moshe with her speech; likewise those who told Gedaliah that he was to be killed by Yishmael (Yirmiya 40:14) were trying to save him.
Are there any instances in Tanach of people who spoke Lashon Hara about other people (to the exclusion of ex. the Meraglim) purely to harm the one about whom the Lashon Hara was said?
sources-mekorot tanach lashon-hara-slander
sources-mekorot tanach lashon-hara-slander
asked 8 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
20.6k2 gold badges30 silver badges98 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
20.6k2 gold badges30 silver badges98 bronze badges
edited 8 hours ago
DonielF
asked 8 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
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asked 8 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
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asked 8 hours ago
DonielFDonielF
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1
Lots of David's enemies (Doeg, the Zifim, ...), no?
– Meir
8 hours ago
@Meir I’m not convinced about the Zifim; Rashi sounds like they thought they were doing the right thing by handing him over, but Doeg surely is an answer. How did I forget about them?
– DonielF
8 hours ago
Re the Lashon Hara that Miriam spoke, isn't there a Midrash that explains that Miriam relayed the fact that Tzippora didn't have relations with Moshe, and she relayed that story. Of what good use was that?
– DanF
8 hours ago
@DanF See Rashi on those Pesukim - ומה מרים שלא נתכונה לגנותו. She was wrong and was punished accordingly, but she didn’t intend to harm him in doing so.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
@DonielF Doeg also thought he was doing the right thing as he thought David was Moreid Bemalchus and convinced of his ill lineage. It seems that the reason why he is enumerated in Chelek as not going to Olam Haba is for having never accepted higher authority of Shmuels Psak that Dovid was Kosher and annointed justifiably as King unlike say Yonasan who accepted Dovid in spite of losing the throne
– user15464
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
1
Lots of David's enemies (Doeg, the Zifim, ...), no?
– Meir
8 hours ago
@Meir I’m not convinced about the Zifim; Rashi sounds like they thought they were doing the right thing by handing him over, but Doeg surely is an answer. How did I forget about them?
– DonielF
8 hours ago
Re the Lashon Hara that Miriam spoke, isn't there a Midrash that explains that Miriam relayed the fact that Tzippora didn't have relations with Moshe, and she relayed that story. Of what good use was that?
– DanF
8 hours ago
@DanF See Rashi on those Pesukim - ומה מרים שלא נתכונה לגנותו. She was wrong and was punished accordingly, but she didn’t intend to harm him in doing so.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
@DonielF Doeg also thought he was doing the right thing as he thought David was Moreid Bemalchus and convinced of his ill lineage. It seems that the reason why he is enumerated in Chelek as not going to Olam Haba is for having never accepted higher authority of Shmuels Psak that Dovid was Kosher and annointed justifiably as King unlike say Yonasan who accepted Dovid in spite of losing the throne
– user15464
1 hour ago
1
1
Lots of David's enemies (Doeg, the Zifim, ...), no?
– Meir
8 hours ago
Lots of David's enemies (Doeg, the Zifim, ...), no?
– Meir
8 hours ago
@Meir I’m not convinced about the Zifim; Rashi sounds like they thought they were doing the right thing by handing him over, but Doeg surely is an answer. How did I forget about them?
– DonielF
8 hours ago
@Meir I’m not convinced about the Zifim; Rashi sounds like they thought they were doing the right thing by handing him over, but Doeg surely is an answer. How did I forget about them?
– DonielF
8 hours ago
Re the Lashon Hara that Miriam spoke, isn't there a Midrash that explains that Miriam relayed the fact that Tzippora didn't have relations with Moshe, and she relayed that story. Of what good use was that?
– DanF
8 hours ago
Re the Lashon Hara that Miriam spoke, isn't there a Midrash that explains that Miriam relayed the fact that Tzippora didn't have relations with Moshe, and she relayed that story. Of what good use was that?
– DanF
8 hours ago
@DanF See Rashi on those Pesukim - ומה מרים שלא נתכונה לגנותו. She was wrong and was punished accordingly, but she didn’t intend to harm him in doing so.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
@DanF See Rashi on those Pesukim - ומה מרים שלא נתכונה לגנותו. She was wrong and was punished accordingly, but she didn’t intend to harm him in doing so.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
@DonielF Doeg also thought he was doing the right thing as he thought David was Moreid Bemalchus and convinced of his ill lineage. It seems that the reason why he is enumerated in Chelek as not going to Olam Haba is for having never accepted higher authority of Shmuels Psak that Dovid was Kosher and annointed justifiably as King unlike say Yonasan who accepted Dovid in spite of losing the throne
– user15464
1 hour ago
@DonielF Doeg also thought he was doing the right thing as he thought David was Moreid Bemalchus and convinced of his ill lineage. It seems that the reason why he is enumerated in Chelek as not going to Olam Haba is for having never accepted higher authority of Shmuels Psak that Dovid was Kosher and annointed justifiably as King unlike say Yonasan who accepted Dovid in spite of losing the throne
– user15464
1 hour ago
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2 Answers
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In 2 Samuel 16, when David flees Jerusalem after Avshalom's conspiracy, Ziba the slave comes to David with provisions, and claims Mephibosheth that has broken faith with David to join Avshalom. David responds by giving all that belonged to Mephibosheth to his slave Tziva instead. Finally, in 2 Samuel 19,28 when David returns to Jerusalem, Mephibosheth tells David that Tziva had been lying וירגל בעבדך אל אדני (. David responds by saying "You and Tziva shall divide the land."
the Gemara Yuma 22b says:
לרב נמי דאמר קבל דוד לשון הרע הא איפרעו מיניה דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב בשעה שאמר לו דוד למפיבושת (שמואל ב יט, ל) אמרתי אתה וציבא תחלקו את השדה יצאה בת קול ואמרה לו רחבעם וירבעם יחלקו את המלכות
When tziva the slave said to David Lashon Hara about Mefiboshes and David accepted and said they should divide Mefiboshes' estate, as a punishment heavenly voice came out and said "Rechavam and Yeravam should divide the kingdom" (that was supposed to be solely under Monarchy of Davids lineage Rechavam).
A slave is obligated tokeep Mitvos Lo taase including not saying Lashon Hara just like a woman (Yevamos 48a), and David was obligated not to listen to Lashon Hara.
answered 4 hours ago
user15464user15464
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Ezra 4 describes the slander of the returnees to Yehudah which their enemies sent to the Persian kings, leading to delays in rebuilding the Second Temple.
answered 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
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It’s my understanding they weren’t Jewish (or fully Jewish), so they weren’t obligated in Lashon Hara anyway. I’m looking for people who actually violated the prohibition.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
1
@DonielF It seems that until the times of the Mishnah the Shomronim / Kutim were treated as Jews
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@donielf you are right as Tosfos says in Chullin 3a כותיים לא נתגיירו לגמרי כדכתיב במלכים (ב יז) את ה' היו יראים ואת אלהיהם היו עובדים ומאן דאמר גרי אמת הן קסבר דשוב נתגיירו לגמרי The Passuk states clearly the Kutim only converted for fear of lions and weren't genuine converts, so the opinion in the Mishna that Holds they were genuine, this only happened at a later date when they decided to fully convert (almost certainly in the time of the Tanaim as in the days of Ezra they were clearly enemies of the Jews and Judaism halting the building of the Bais Hamikdash)
– user15464
1 hour ago
@user15464 I went back through the sugya; it’s a Machlokes Tana’im toward the beginning of Maseches Geirim.
– DonielF
50 mins ago
@DonielF tosfos agrees with you its a machlokes he just says that the machlokes tannaim came about after tanach because at the time of tanach (your question right) all Tannaim would agree the kutim weren't genuine see 2 Malachim 17 explicitely stating they weren't genuine Jews, its just the later generations became genuine according to one opinion and according to the other opinion remained goyim
– user15464
32 mins ago
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2 Answers
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active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
In 2 Samuel 16, when David flees Jerusalem after Avshalom's conspiracy, Ziba the slave comes to David with provisions, and claims Mephibosheth that has broken faith with David to join Avshalom. David responds by giving all that belonged to Mephibosheth to his slave Tziva instead. Finally, in 2 Samuel 19,28 when David returns to Jerusalem, Mephibosheth tells David that Tziva had been lying וירגל בעבדך אל אדני (. David responds by saying "You and Tziva shall divide the land."
the Gemara Yuma 22b says:
לרב נמי דאמר קבל דוד לשון הרע הא איפרעו מיניה דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב בשעה שאמר לו דוד למפיבושת (שמואל ב יט, ל) אמרתי אתה וציבא תחלקו את השדה יצאה בת קול ואמרה לו רחבעם וירבעם יחלקו את המלכות
When tziva the slave said to David Lashon Hara about Mefiboshes and David accepted and said they should divide Mefiboshes' estate, as a punishment heavenly voice came out and said "Rechavam and Yeravam should divide the kingdom" (that was supposed to be solely under Monarchy of Davids lineage Rechavam).
A slave is obligated tokeep Mitvos Lo taase including not saying Lashon Hara just like a woman (Yevamos 48a), and David was obligated not to listen to Lashon Hara.
answered 4 hours ago
user15464user15464
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In 2 Samuel 16, when David flees Jerusalem after Avshalom's conspiracy, Ziba the slave comes to David with provisions, and claims Mephibosheth that has broken faith with David to join Avshalom. David responds by giving all that belonged to Mephibosheth to his slave Tziva instead. Finally, in 2 Samuel 19,28 when David returns to Jerusalem, Mephibosheth tells David that Tziva had been lying וירגל בעבדך אל אדני (. David responds by saying "You and Tziva shall divide the land."
the Gemara Yuma 22b says:
לרב נמי דאמר קבל דוד לשון הרע הא איפרעו מיניה דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב בשעה שאמר לו דוד למפיבושת (שמואל ב יט, ל) אמרתי אתה וציבא תחלקו את השדה יצאה בת קול ואמרה לו רחבעם וירבעם יחלקו את המלכות
When tziva the slave said to David Lashon Hara about Mefiboshes and David accepted and said they should divide Mefiboshes' estate, as a punishment heavenly voice came out and said "Rechavam and Yeravam should divide the kingdom" (that was supposed to be solely under Monarchy of Davids lineage Rechavam).
A slave is obligated tokeep Mitvos Lo taase including not saying Lashon Hara just like a woman (Yevamos 48a), and David was obligated not to listen to Lashon Hara.
answered 4 hours ago
user15464user15464
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add a comment
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In 2 Samuel 16, when David flees Jerusalem after Avshalom's conspiracy, Ziba the slave comes to David with provisions, and claims Mephibosheth that has broken faith with David to join Avshalom. David responds by giving all that belonged to Mephibosheth to his slave Tziva instead. Finally, in 2 Samuel 19,28 when David returns to Jerusalem, Mephibosheth tells David that Tziva had been lying וירגל בעבדך אל אדני (. David responds by saying "You and Tziva shall divide the land."
the Gemara Yuma 22b says:
לרב נמי דאמר קבל דוד לשון הרע הא איפרעו מיניה דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב בשעה שאמר לו דוד למפיבושת (שמואל ב יט, ל) אמרתי אתה וציבא תחלקו את השדה יצאה בת קול ואמרה לו רחבעם וירבעם יחלקו את המלכות
When tziva the slave said to David Lashon Hara about Mefiboshes and David accepted and said they should divide Mefiboshes' estate, as a punishment heavenly voice came out and said "Rechavam and Yeravam should divide the kingdom" (that was supposed to be solely under Monarchy of Davids lineage Rechavam).
A slave is obligated tokeep Mitvos Lo taase including not saying Lashon Hara just like a woman (Yevamos 48a), and David was obligated not to listen to Lashon Hara.
answered 4 hours ago
user15464user15464
8,82115 silver badges90 bronze badges
In 2 Samuel 16, when David flees Jerusalem after Avshalom's conspiracy, Ziba the slave comes to David with provisions, and claims Mephibosheth that has broken faith with David to join Avshalom. David responds by giving all that belonged to Mephibosheth to his slave Tziva instead. Finally, in 2 Samuel 19,28 when David returns to Jerusalem, Mephibosheth tells David that Tziva had been lying וירגל בעבדך אל אדני (. David responds by saying "You and Tziva shall divide the land."
the Gemara Yuma 22b says:
לרב נמי דאמר קבל דוד לשון הרע הא איפרעו מיניה דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב בשעה שאמר לו דוד למפיבושת (שמואל ב יט, ל) אמרתי אתה וציבא תחלקו את השדה יצאה בת קול ואמרה לו רחבעם וירבעם יחלקו את המלכות
When tziva the slave said to David Lashon Hara about Mefiboshes and David accepted and said they should divide Mefiboshes' estate, as a punishment heavenly voice came out and said "Rechavam and Yeravam should divide the kingdom" (that was supposed to be solely under Monarchy of Davids lineage Rechavam).
A slave is obligated tokeep Mitvos Lo taase including not saying Lashon Hara just like a woman (Yevamos 48a), and David was obligated not to listen to Lashon Hara.
answered 4 hours ago
user15464user15464
8,82115 silver badges90 bronze badges
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
user15464user15464
8,82115 silver badges90 bronze badges
answered 4 hours ago
user15464user15464
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answered 4 hours ago
user15464user15464
8,82115 silver badges90 bronze badges
8,82115 silver badges90 bronze badges
add a comment
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add a comment
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Ezra 4 describes the slander of the returnees to Yehudah which their enemies sent to the Persian kings, leading to delays in rebuilding the Second Temple.
answered 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
19.7k2 gold badges36 silver badges113 bronze badges
1
It’s my understanding they weren’t Jewish (or fully Jewish), so they weren’t obligated in Lashon Hara anyway. I’m looking for people who actually violated the prohibition.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
1
@DonielF It seems that until the times of the Mishnah the Shomronim / Kutim were treated as Jews
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@donielf you are right as Tosfos says in Chullin 3a כותיים לא נתגיירו לגמרי כדכתיב במלכים (ב יז) את ה' היו יראים ואת אלהיהם היו עובדים ומאן דאמר גרי אמת הן קסבר דשוב נתגיירו לגמרי The Passuk states clearly the Kutim only converted for fear of lions and weren't genuine converts, so the opinion in the Mishna that Holds they were genuine, this only happened at a later date when they decided to fully convert (almost certainly in the time of the Tanaim as in the days of Ezra they were clearly enemies of the Jews and Judaism halting the building of the Bais Hamikdash)
– user15464
1 hour ago
@user15464 I went back through the sugya; it’s a Machlokes Tana’im toward the beginning of Maseches Geirim.
– DonielF
50 mins ago
@DonielF tosfos agrees with you its a machlokes he just says that the machlokes tannaim came about after tanach because at the time of tanach (your question right) all Tannaim would agree the kutim weren't genuine see 2 Malachim 17 explicitely stating they weren't genuine Jews, its just the later generations became genuine according to one opinion and according to the other opinion remained goyim
– user15464
32 mins ago
add a comment
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Ezra 4 describes the slander of the returnees to Yehudah which their enemies sent to the Persian kings, leading to delays in rebuilding the Second Temple.
answered 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
19.7k2 gold badges36 silver badges113 bronze badges
1
It’s my understanding they weren’t Jewish (or fully Jewish), so they weren’t obligated in Lashon Hara anyway. I’m looking for people who actually violated the prohibition.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
1
@DonielF It seems that until the times of the Mishnah the Shomronim / Kutim were treated as Jews
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@donielf you are right as Tosfos says in Chullin 3a כותיים לא נתגיירו לגמרי כדכתיב במלכים (ב יז) את ה' היו יראים ואת אלהיהם היו עובדים ומאן דאמר גרי אמת הן קסבר דשוב נתגיירו לגמרי The Passuk states clearly the Kutim only converted for fear of lions and weren't genuine converts, so the opinion in the Mishna that Holds they were genuine, this only happened at a later date when they decided to fully convert (almost certainly in the time of the Tanaim as in the days of Ezra they were clearly enemies of the Jews and Judaism halting the building of the Bais Hamikdash)
– user15464
1 hour ago
@user15464 I went back through the sugya; it’s a Machlokes Tana’im toward the beginning of Maseches Geirim.
– DonielF
50 mins ago
@DonielF tosfos agrees with you its a machlokes he just says that the machlokes tannaim came about after tanach because at the time of tanach (your question right) all Tannaim would agree the kutim weren't genuine see 2 Malachim 17 explicitely stating they weren't genuine Jews, its just the later generations became genuine according to one opinion and according to the other opinion remained goyim
– user15464
32 mins ago
add a comment
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Ezra 4 describes the slander of the returnees to Yehudah which their enemies sent to the Persian kings, leading to delays in rebuilding the Second Temple.
answered 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
19.7k2 gold badges36 silver badges113 bronze badges
Ezra 4 describes the slander of the returnees to Yehudah which their enemies sent to the Persian kings, leading to delays in rebuilding the Second Temple.
answered 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
19.7k2 gold badges36 silver badges113 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
19.7k2 gold badges36 silver badges113 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
19.7k2 gold badges36 silver badges113 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
19.7k2 gold badges36 silver badges113 bronze badges
19.7k2 gold badges36 silver badges113 bronze badges
1
It’s my understanding they weren’t Jewish (or fully Jewish), so they weren’t obligated in Lashon Hara anyway. I’m looking for people who actually violated the prohibition.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
1
@DonielF It seems that until the times of the Mishnah the Shomronim / Kutim were treated as Jews
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@donielf you are right as Tosfos says in Chullin 3a כותיים לא נתגיירו לגמרי כדכתיב במלכים (ב יז) את ה' היו יראים ואת אלהיהם היו עובדים ומאן דאמר גרי אמת הן קסבר דשוב נתגיירו לגמרי The Passuk states clearly the Kutim only converted for fear of lions and weren't genuine converts, so the opinion in the Mishna that Holds they were genuine, this only happened at a later date when they decided to fully convert (almost certainly in the time of the Tanaim as in the days of Ezra they were clearly enemies of the Jews and Judaism halting the building of the Bais Hamikdash)
– user15464
1 hour ago
@user15464 I went back through the sugya; it’s a Machlokes Tana’im toward the beginning of Maseches Geirim.
– DonielF
50 mins ago
@DonielF tosfos agrees with you its a machlokes he just says that the machlokes tannaim came about after tanach because at the time of tanach (your question right) all Tannaim would agree the kutim weren't genuine see 2 Malachim 17 explicitely stating they weren't genuine Jews, its just the later generations became genuine according to one opinion and according to the other opinion remained goyim
– user15464
32 mins ago
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1
It’s my understanding they weren’t Jewish (or fully Jewish), so they weren’t obligated in Lashon Hara anyway. I’m looking for people who actually violated the prohibition.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
1
@DonielF It seems that until the times of the Mishnah the Shomronim / Kutim were treated as Jews
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@donielf you are right as Tosfos says in Chullin 3a כותיים לא נתגיירו לגמרי כדכתיב במלכים (ב יז) את ה' היו יראים ואת אלהיהם היו עובדים ומאן דאמר גרי אמת הן קסבר דשוב נתגיירו לגמרי The Passuk states clearly the Kutim only converted for fear of lions and weren't genuine converts, so the opinion in the Mishna that Holds they were genuine, this only happened at a later date when they decided to fully convert (almost certainly in the time of the Tanaim as in the days of Ezra they were clearly enemies of the Jews and Judaism halting the building of the Bais Hamikdash)
– user15464
1 hour ago
@user15464 I went back through the sugya; it’s a Machlokes Tana’im toward the beginning of Maseches Geirim.
– DonielF
50 mins ago
@DonielF tosfos agrees with you its a machlokes he just says that the machlokes tannaim came about after tanach because at the time of tanach (your question right) all Tannaim would agree the kutim weren't genuine see 2 Malachim 17 explicitely stating they weren't genuine Jews, its just the later generations became genuine according to one opinion and according to the other opinion remained goyim
– user15464
32 mins ago
1
1
It’s my understanding they weren’t Jewish (or fully Jewish), so they weren’t obligated in Lashon Hara anyway. I’m looking for people who actually violated the prohibition.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
It’s my understanding they weren’t Jewish (or fully Jewish), so they weren’t obligated in Lashon Hara anyway. I’m looking for people who actually violated the prohibition.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
1
1
@DonielF It seems that until the times of the Mishnah the Shomronim / Kutim were treated as Jews
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@DonielF It seems that until the times of the Mishnah the Shomronim / Kutim were treated as Jews
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@donielf you are right as Tosfos says in Chullin 3a כותיים לא נתגיירו לגמרי כדכתיב במלכים (ב יז) את ה' היו יראים ואת אלהיהם היו עובדים ומאן דאמר גרי אמת הן קסבר דשוב נתגיירו לגמרי The Passuk states clearly the Kutim only converted for fear of lions and weren't genuine converts, so the opinion in the Mishna that Holds they were genuine, this only happened at a later date when they decided to fully convert (almost certainly in the time of the Tanaim as in the days of Ezra they were clearly enemies of the Jews and Judaism halting the building of the Bais Hamikdash)
– user15464
1 hour ago
@donielf you are right as Tosfos says in Chullin 3a כותיים לא נתגיירו לגמרי כדכתיב במלכים (ב יז) את ה' היו יראים ואת אלהיהם היו עובדים ומאן דאמר גרי אמת הן קסבר דשוב נתגיירו לגמרי The Passuk states clearly the Kutim only converted for fear of lions and weren't genuine converts, so the opinion in the Mishna that Holds they were genuine, this only happened at a later date when they decided to fully convert (almost certainly in the time of the Tanaim as in the days of Ezra they were clearly enemies of the Jews and Judaism halting the building of the Bais Hamikdash)
– user15464
1 hour ago
@user15464 I went back through the sugya; it’s a Machlokes Tana’im toward the beginning of Maseches Geirim.
– DonielF
50 mins ago
@user15464 I went back through the sugya; it’s a Machlokes Tana’im toward the beginning of Maseches Geirim.
– DonielF
50 mins ago
@DonielF tosfos agrees with you its a machlokes he just says that the machlokes tannaim came about after tanach because at the time of tanach (your question right) all Tannaim would agree the kutim weren't genuine see 2 Malachim 17 explicitely stating they weren't genuine Jews, its just the later generations became genuine according to one opinion and according to the other opinion remained goyim
– user15464
32 mins ago
@DonielF tosfos agrees with you its a machlokes he just says that the machlokes tannaim came about after tanach because at the time of tanach (your question right) all Tannaim would agree the kutim weren't genuine see 2 Malachim 17 explicitely stating they weren't genuine Jews, its just the later generations became genuine according to one opinion and according to the other opinion remained goyim
– user15464
32 mins ago
add a comment
|
1
Lots of David's enemies (Doeg, the Zifim, ...), no?
– Meir
8 hours ago
@Meir I’m not convinced about the Zifim; Rashi sounds like they thought they were doing the right thing by handing him over, but Doeg surely is an answer. How did I forget about them?
– DonielF
8 hours ago
Re the Lashon Hara that Miriam spoke, isn't there a Midrash that explains that Miriam relayed the fact that Tzippora didn't have relations with Moshe, and she relayed that story. Of what good use was that?
– DanF
8 hours ago
@DanF See Rashi on those Pesukim - ומה מרים שלא נתכונה לגנותו. She was wrong and was punished accordingly, but she didn’t intend to harm him in doing so.
– DonielF
8 hours ago
@DonielF Doeg also thought he was doing the right thing as he thought David was Moreid Bemalchus and convinced of his ill lineage. It seems that the reason why he is enumerated in Chelek as not going to Olam Haba is for having never accepted higher authority of Shmuels Psak that Dovid was Kosher and annointed justifiably as King unlike say Yonasan who accepted Dovid in spite of losing the throne
– user15464
1 hour ago