Beth cardinals and inacceesible cardinalsQuestion about $aleph$-fixed pointHyper-inaccessible cardinalsRegarding the axiom $2^kappa = 2^kappa^+$ for regular cardinals $kappa$, and its relationship to a couple of other axioms.Reference: Mahlo cardinals remain Mahlo in LAre there any cardinals with this property of elementary substructures?Worldly vs Inaccessible Cardinals, why different?ZF + DC + LM + multiple inaccessible cardinals
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Beth cardinals and inacceesible cardinals
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Beth cardinals and inacceesible cardinals
Question about $aleph$-fixed pointHyper-inaccessible cardinalsRegarding the axiom $2^kappa = 2^kappa^+$ for regular cardinals $kappa$, and its relationship to a couple of other axioms.Reference: Mahlo cardinals remain Mahlo in LAre there any cardinals with this property of elementary substructures?Worldly vs Inaccessible Cardinals, why different?ZF + DC + LM + multiple inaccessible cardinals
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
Since my last question here about the Alephs was too imprecise and thus went over like a lead balloon, I am trying a new and simpler question which asks what I probably should have asked before.
Under "Beth Numbers" in Wikipedia I read:
"In ZF, for any cardinals $kappa$ and $mu$, there is an ordinal $alpha$ such that:
$kappa leq beth_alpha(mu)$."
But under "Inaccessible Cardinals" I read:
"a cardinal $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible if it is uncountable, it is not a sum of fewer than $kappa$ cardinals that are less than $kappa$, and $alpha < kappa$ implies $2^alpha < kappa$."
These two passages are troubling to me since they seem to be contradictory. The first one seems to imply that for ANY cardinal one can always find a Beth number which exceeds it. While the second one clearly seems to imply that the first inaccesible and any cardinal larger than it, of which there are uncountably many, of course, are all vastly larger than any Beth cardinal generated by even $omega$ applications of the Power Set operation could ever be.
I assume that I am simply missing something important here, and that both statements from the Wikipedia are actually true. But what exactly am I missing??
set-theory
$endgroup$
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Since my last question here about the Alephs was too imprecise and thus went over like a lead balloon, I am trying a new and simpler question which asks what I probably should have asked before.
Under "Beth Numbers" in Wikipedia I read:
"In ZF, for any cardinals $kappa$ and $mu$, there is an ordinal $alpha$ such that:
$kappa leq beth_alpha(mu)$."
But under "Inaccessible Cardinals" I read:
"a cardinal $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible if it is uncountable, it is not a sum of fewer than $kappa$ cardinals that are less than $kappa$, and $alpha < kappa$ implies $2^alpha < kappa$."
These two passages are troubling to me since they seem to be contradictory. The first one seems to imply that for ANY cardinal one can always find a Beth number which exceeds it. While the second one clearly seems to imply that the first inaccesible and any cardinal larger than it, of which there are uncountably many, of course, are all vastly larger than any Beth cardinal generated by even $omega$ applications of the Power Set operation could ever be.
I assume that I am simply missing something important here, and that both statements from the Wikipedia are actually true. But what exactly am I missing??
set-theory
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
$endgroup$
– bof
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
$endgroup$
– bof
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Since my last question here about the Alephs was too imprecise and thus went over like a lead balloon, I am trying a new and simpler question which asks what I probably should have asked before.
Under "Beth Numbers" in Wikipedia I read:
"In ZF, for any cardinals $kappa$ and $mu$, there is an ordinal $alpha$ such that:
$kappa leq beth_alpha(mu)$."
But under "Inaccessible Cardinals" I read:
"a cardinal $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible if it is uncountable, it is not a sum of fewer than $kappa$ cardinals that are less than $kappa$, and $alpha < kappa$ implies $2^alpha < kappa$."
These two passages are troubling to me since they seem to be contradictory. The first one seems to imply that for ANY cardinal one can always find a Beth number which exceeds it. While the second one clearly seems to imply that the first inaccesible and any cardinal larger than it, of which there are uncountably many, of course, are all vastly larger than any Beth cardinal generated by even $omega$ applications of the Power Set operation could ever be.
I assume that I am simply missing something important here, and that both statements from the Wikipedia are actually true. But what exactly am I missing??
set-theory
$endgroup$
Since my last question here about the Alephs was too imprecise and thus went over like a lead balloon, I am trying a new and simpler question which asks what I probably should have asked before.
Under "Beth Numbers" in Wikipedia I read:
"In ZF, for any cardinals $kappa$ and $mu$, there is an ordinal $alpha$ such that:
$kappa leq beth_alpha(mu)$."
But under "Inaccessible Cardinals" I read:
"a cardinal $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible if it is uncountable, it is not a sum of fewer than $kappa$ cardinals that are less than $kappa$, and $alpha < kappa$ implies $2^alpha < kappa$."
These two passages are troubling to me since they seem to be contradictory. The first one seems to imply that for ANY cardinal one can always find a Beth number which exceeds it. While the second one clearly seems to imply that the first inaccesible and any cardinal larger than it, of which there are uncountably many, of course, are all vastly larger than any Beth cardinal generated by even $omega$ applications of the Power Set operation could ever be.
I assume that I am simply missing something important here, and that both statements from the Wikipedia are actually true. But what exactly am I missing??
set-theory
set-theory
edited 8 hours ago
Wd Fusroy
asked 8 hours ago
Wd FusroyWd Fusroy
625 bronze badges
625 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
$endgroup$
– bof
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
$endgroup$
– bof
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
2
$begingroup$
Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
$endgroup$
– bof
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
$endgroup$
– bof
5 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
$endgroup$
– bof
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
$endgroup$
– bof
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
$endgroup$
– bof
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
$endgroup$
– bof
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.
Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).
The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")
Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff
The domain of $G$ is $theta$,
$G(0)=alpha$,
for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and
for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.
Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.
In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:
For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.
Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.
The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.
The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:
$F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).
The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.
To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.
$endgroup$
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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active
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$begingroup$
It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.
Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).
The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.
Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).
The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.
Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).
The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.
$endgroup$
It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.
Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).
The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.
answered 8 hours ago
Chris EagleChris Eagle
6788 bronze badges
6788 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
$endgroup$
– Chris Eagle
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")
Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff
The domain of $G$ is $theta$,
$G(0)=alpha$,
for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and
for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.
Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.
In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:
For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.
Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.
The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.
The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:
$F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).
The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.
To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")
Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff
The domain of $G$ is $theta$,
$G(0)=alpha$,
for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and
for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.
Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.
In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:
For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.
Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.
The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.
The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:
$F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).
The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.
To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")
Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff
The domain of $G$ is $theta$,
$G(0)=alpha$,
for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and
for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.
Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.
In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:
For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.
Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.
The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.
The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:
$F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).
The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.
To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.
$endgroup$
Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")
Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff
The domain of $G$ is $theta$,
$G(0)=alpha$,
for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and
for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.
Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.
In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:
For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.
Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.
The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.
The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:
$F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).
The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.
To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
Noah SchweberNoah Schweber
137k10 gold badges164 silver badges311 bronze badges
137k10 gold badges164 silver badges311 bronze badges
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2
$begingroup$
Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
$endgroup$
– bof
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
$endgroup$
– bof
5 hours ago