Ultraproduct of Dividing LinesIs the ultraproduct concept fundamentally category-theoretic?Ultrafilters arising from Keisler-Shelah ultrapower characterisation of elementary equivalenceApproximating a function via definable functionsNice model theoretic properties of a theory after adding predicatesDoes non-stablity imply that there is a difference between non-forking and coheir extensionAre Braid Groups with Finitely many Generators NIP?limits of stable theoriesWhy are model theorists so fond of definable groups?Existence of a stable approximation of a probability algebra'Algebraic Skolemization' of (neo-)stable theories
Ultraproduct of Dividing Lines
Is the ultraproduct concept fundamentally category-theoretic?Ultrafilters arising from Keisler-Shelah ultrapower characterisation of elementary equivalenceApproximating a function via definable functionsNice model theoretic properties of a theory after adding predicatesDoes non-stablity imply that there is a difference between non-forking and coheir extensionAre Braid Groups with Finitely many Generators NIP?limits of stable theoriesWhy are model theorists so fond of definable groups?Existence of a stable approximation of a probability algebra'Algebraic Skolemization' of (neo-)stable theories
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Let $M_i_iin I$ be a family of $L$-structures such that for each $iin I$, $T_i=Th(M_i)$ is X where $Xintextstable, simple, NIP, NSOP, dots$. Let $U$ be a non-principal ultrafilter on $I$, and $M=prod_U M_i$. Also, let $T=Th(M)$.
Is $T$ an X theory as well?
What can we say about $T$ in general?
lo.logic model-theory
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $M_i_iin I$ be a family of $L$-structures such that for each $iin I$, $T_i=Th(M_i)$ is X where $Xintextstable, simple, NIP, NSOP, dots$. Let $U$ be a non-principal ultrafilter on $I$, and $M=prod_U M_i$. Also, let $T=Th(M)$.
Is $T$ an X theory as well?
What can we say about $T$ in general?
lo.logic model-theory
$endgroup$
4
$begingroup$
This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
$endgroup$
– James Hanson
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $M_i_iin I$ be a family of $L$-structures such that for each $iin I$, $T_i=Th(M_i)$ is X where $Xintextstable, simple, NIP, NSOP, dots$. Let $U$ be a non-principal ultrafilter on $I$, and $M=prod_U M_i$. Also, let $T=Th(M)$.
Is $T$ an X theory as well?
What can we say about $T$ in general?
lo.logic model-theory
$endgroup$
Let $M_i_iin I$ be a family of $L$-structures such that for each $iin I$, $T_i=Th(M_i)$ is X where $Xintextstable, simple, NIP, NSOP, dots$. Let $U$ be a non-principal ultrafilter on $I$, and $M=prod_U M_i$. Also, let $T=Th(M)$.
Is $T$ an X theory as well?
What can we say about $T$ in general?
lo.logic model-theory
lo.logic model-theory
asked 8 hours ago
LajosLajos
715 bronze badges
715 bronze badges
4
$begingroup$
This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
$endgroup$
– James Hanson
8 hours ago
add a comment |
4
$begingroup$
This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
$endgroup$
– James Hanson
8 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
$endgroup$
– James Hanson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
$endgroup$
– James Hanson
8 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
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$begingroup$
I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.
But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.
Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.
In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.
EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
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@Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
$endgroup$
– Gabe Conant
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
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active
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$begingroup$
I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).
$endgroup$
I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).
answered 8 hours ago
Mostafa MirabiMostafa Mirabi
1,6891 gold badge13 silver badges26 bronze badges
1,6891 gold badge13 silver badges26 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.
But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.
Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.
In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.
EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
$endgroup$
– Gabe Conant
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.
But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.
Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.
In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.
EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
$endgroup$
– Gabe Conant
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.
But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.
Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.
In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.
EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.
$endgroup$
As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.
But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.
Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.
In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.
EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Gabe ConantGabe Conant
1,0138 silver badges16 bronze badges
1,0138 silver badges16 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
$endgroup$
– Gabe Conant
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
$endgroup$
– Gabe Conant
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
$endgroup$
– Gabe Conant
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
$endgroup$
– Gabe Conant
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
$endgroup$
– Lajos
7 hours ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
$endgroup$
– James Hanson
8 hours ago