Ultraproduct of Dividing LinesIs the ultraproduct concept fundamentally category-theoretic?Ultrafilters arising from Keisler-Shelah ultrapower characterisation of elementary equivalenceApproximating a function via definable functionsNice model theoretic properties of a theory after adding predicatesDoes non-stablity imply that there is a difference between non-forking and coheir extensionAre Braid Groups with Finitely many Generators NIP?limits of stable theoriesWhy are model theorists so fond of definable groups?Existence of a stable approximation of a probability algebra'Algebraic Skolemization' of (neo-)stable theories

Ultraproduct of Dividing Lines


Is the ultraproduct concept fundamentally category-theoretic?Ultrafilters arising from Keisler-Shelah ultrapower characterisation of elementary equivalenceApproximating a function via definable functionsNice model theoretic properties of a theory after adding predicatesDoes non-stablity imply that there is a difference between non-forking and coheir extensionAre Braid Groups with Finitely many Generators NIP?limits of stable theoriesWhy are model theorists so fond of definable groups?Existence of a stable approximation of a probability algebra'Algebraic Skolemization' of (neo-)stable theories













4












$begingroup$


Let $M_i_iin I$ be a family of $L$-structures such that for each $iin I$, $T_i=Th(M_i)$ is X where $Xintextstable, simple, NIP, NSOP, dots$. Let $U$ be a non-principal ultrafilter on $I$, and $M=prod_U M_i$. Also, let $T=Th(M)$.



  1. Is $T$ an X theory as well?


  2. What can we say about $T$ in general?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
    $endgroup$
    – James Hanson
    8 hours ago















4












$begingroup$


Let $M_i_iin I$ be a family of $L$-structures such that for each $iin I$, $T_i=Th(M_i)$ is X where $Xintextstable, simple, NIP, NSOP, dots$. Let $U$ be a non-principal ultrafilter on $I$, and $M=prod_U M_i$. Also, let $T=Th(M)$.



  1. Is $T$ an X theory as well?


  2. What can we say about $T$ in general?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
    $endgroup$
    – James Hanson
    8 hours ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$


Let $M_i_iin I$ be a family of $L$-structures such that for each $iin I$, $T_i=Th(M_i)$ is X where $Xintextstable, simple, NIP, NSOP, dots$. Let $U$ be a non-principal ultrafilter on $I$, and $M=prod_U M_i$. Also, let $T=Th(M)$.



  1. Is $T$ an X theory as well?


  2. What can we say about $T$ in general?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




Let $M_i_iin I$ be a family of $L$-structures such that for each $iin I$, $T_i=Th(M_i)$ is X where $Xintextstable, simple, NIP, NSOP, dots$. Let $U$ be a non-principal ultrafilter on $I$, and $M=prod_U M_i$. Also, let $T=Th(M)$.



  1. Is $T$ an X theory as well?


  2. What can we say about $T$ in general?







lo.logic model-theory






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 8 hours ago









LajosLajos

715 bronze badges




715 bronze badges







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
    $endgroup$
    – James Hanson
    8 hours ago












  • 4




    $begingroup$
    This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
    $endgroup$
    – James Hanson
    8 hours ago







4




4




$begingroup$
This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
$endgroup$
– James Hanson
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
This is equivalent to asking whether or not $X$ is an elementary class in the language $L$. For any sufficiently non-trivial language this is going to fail. A simple example would be to consider Boolean algebras. Theories of finite Boolean algebras are stable (all theories of finite structures are), but no theory of an infinite Boolean algebra is going to be anything nice, so a pseudo-finite Boolean algebra would give a counterexample to your question 1.
$endgroup$
– James Hanson
8 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















5












$begingroup$

I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    4












    $begingroup$

    As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.



    But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.



    Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.



    In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.



    EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
      $endgroup$
      – Lajos
      7 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      @Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
      $endgroup$
      – Gabe Conant
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
      $endgroup$
      – Lajos
      7 hours ago













    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "504"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f336802%2fultraproduct-of-dividing-lines%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    5












    $begingroup$

    I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      5












      $begingroup$

      I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        5












        5








        5





        $begingroup$

        I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        I think, in general, it would be hard to say somethings about $T$. For example, finite linear orders satisfy stability (and hence simplicity). However a non principal ultraproduct of finite linear orders (except the trivial case) has the strict order property (SOP) and hence is not simple (and in particular, is not stable).







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 8 hours ago









        Mostafa MirabiMostafa Mirabi

        1,6891 gold badge13 silver badges26 bronze badges




        1,6891 gold badge13 silver badges26 bronze badges





















            4












            $begingroup$

            As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.



            But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.



            Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.



            In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.



            EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
              $endgroup$
              – Lajos
              7 hours ago











            • $begingroup$
              @Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
              $endgroup$
              – Gabe Conant
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
              $endgroup$
              – Lajos
              7 hours ago















            4












            $begingroup$

            As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.



            But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.



            Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.



            In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.



            EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
              $endgroup$
              – Lajos
              7 hours ago











            • $begingroup$
              @Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
              $endgroup$
              – Gabe Conant
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
              $endgroup$
              – Lajos
              7 hours ago













            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.



            But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.



            Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.



            In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.



            EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            As already noted by others, for most “Shelah-style” dividing lines the answers to the questions are “no” and “probably not much”, respectively.



            But I think this question is still nice for fueling interesting examples. For instance, here is an example of the “opposite kind” where the ultra product has better behavior.



            Let $M_n$ be the Fraisse limit of finite $K_n$-free graphs, for $ngeq3$. Then $Th(M_n)$ is SOP3 for any $n$. On the other hand, the theory of a nonprincipal ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq 3$ is that of the random graph. So this theory is simple.



            In this example, of course the point is that SOP3 in the individual structures is not witnessed uniformly by the same formula.



            EDIT: Here is a proof of the claim above. Let $M=prod_UM_n$ where $U_n$ is nonprincipal. We show that $M$ satisfies the axiomatization of the theory of the random graph. Clearly, $M$ is a graph so we just need to verify the extension axioms. In particular, fix $kgeq 1$ and let $phi$ be the axiom saying that for any two disjoint sets of $k$ vertices, there is some element connected to everything in the first set and nothing in the second set. Then $M_nmodels phi$ for any $n>k+1$, and so $Mmodelsphi$.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited 6 hours ago

























            answered 7 hours ago









            Gabe ConantGabe Conant

            1,0138 silver badges16 bronze badges




            1,0138 silver badges16 bronze badges











            • $begingroup$
              Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
              $endgroup$
              – Lajos
              7 hours ago











            • $begingroup$
              @Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
              $endgroup$
              – Gabe Conant
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
              $endgroup$
              – Lajos
              7 hours ago
















            • $begingroup$
              Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
              $endgroup$
              – Lajos
              7 hours ago











            • $begingroup$
              @Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
              $endgroup$
              – Gabe Conant
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
              $endgroup$
              – Lajos
              7 hours ago















            $begingroup$
            Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
            $endgroup$
            – Lajos
            7 hours ago





            $begingroup$
            Is it clear that the ultraproduct of $M_n_ngeq3$ is the random graph?
            $endgroup$
            – Lajos
            7 hours ago













            $begingroup$
            @Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
            $endgroup$
            – Gabe Conant
            7 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            @Lajos yes, via the extension axioms for the random graph. I will edit to add this.
            $endgroup$
            – Gabe Conant
            7 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
            $endgroup$
            – Lajos
            7 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            So, it would be like the ultraproduct of Paley graphs. right?
            $endgroup$
            – Lajos
            7 hours ago

















            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to MathOverflow!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f336802%2fultraproduct-of-dividing-lines%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Canceling a color specificationRandomly assigning color to Graphics3D objects?Default color for Filling in Mathematica 9Coloring specific elements of sets with a prime modified order in an array plotHow to pick a color differing significantly from the colors already in a given color list?Detection of the text colorColor numbers based on their valueCan color schemes for use with ColorData include opacity specification?My dynamic color schemes

            Invision Community Contents History See also References External links Navigation menuProprietaryinvisioncommunity.comIPS Community ForumsIPS Community Forumsthis blog entry"License Changes, IP.Board 3.4, and the Future""Interview -- Matt Mecham of Ibforums""CEO Invision Power Board, Matt Mecham Is a Liar, Thief!"IPB License Explanation 1.3, 1.3.1, 2.0, and 2.1ArchivedSecurity Fixes, Updates And Enhancements For IPB 1.3.1Archived"New Demo Accounts - Invision Power Services"the original"New Default Skin"the original"Invision Power Board 3.0.0 and Applications Released"the original"Archived copy"the original"Perpetual licenses being done away with""Release Notes - Invision Power Services""Introducing: IPS Community Suite 4!"Invision Community Release Notes

            François Viète Contents Biography Work and thought Bibliography See also Notes Further reading External links Navigation menup. 21Google Bookspp. 75–77Google BooksDe thou (from University of Saint Andrews)ArchivedGoogle BooksGoogle BooksGoogle BooksGoogle booksGoogle Bookscc-parthenay.frL'histoire universelle (fr)Universal History (en)ArchivedAdsabs.harvard.eduPagesperso-orange.frArchive.orgChikara Sasaki. Descartes' mathematical thought p.259Google BooksGoogle BooksGoogle Bookspp. 152 and onwardGoogle BooksGoogle BooksScribd.comGoogle Books1257-7979Google BooksGoogle BooksGoogle BooksGoogle BooksGoogle BooksGoogle BooksGallica.bnf.frGoogle BooksGoogle Books"François Viète"Francois Viète: Father of Modern Algebraic NotationThe Lawyer and the GamblerAbout TarporleySite de Jean-Paul GuichardL'algèbre nouvelle"About the Harmonicon"cb120511976(data)1188044800000 0001 0913 5903n82164680ola2013766880073431702w6vt1sb70287374827140948071409480