Where is the logic in castrating fighters?Where did Magister Illyrio Mopatis get the dragon eggs from?Why was the wall raised where it stands?Where are the other Baelishes, if any?Do fighters in the Game Of Thrones books not wear helmets?Where did Bronn shoot the arrow from?Where was the kingsguard during the sack of King's Landing?Where does Joffrey Baratheon end up?Where is Howland Reed?Where is Valyria located in the world of Planetos?Where was Gendry born?
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Where is the logic in castrating fighters?
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Where is the logic in castrating fighters?
Where did Magister Illyrio Mopatis get the dragon eggs from?Why was the wall raised where it stands?Where are the other Baelishes, if any?Do fighters in the Game Of Thrones books not wear helmets?Where did Bronn shoot the arrow from?Where was the kingsguard during the sack of King's Landing?Where does Joffrey Baratheon end up?Where is Howland Reed?Where is Valyria located in the world of Planetos?Where was Gendry born?
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This came up on another question, where in A Song of Ice and Fire (the books Game of Thrones is based on), the Unsullied have all of their genitalia removed, not just the penis.
"In Yunkai and Meereen, eunuchs are often made by removing a boy's testicles, but leaving the penis. Such a creature is infertile, yet often still capable of erection. Only trouble can come of this. We remove the penis as well, leaving nothing. The Unsullied are the purest creatures on the earth." He gave Dany and Arstan another of his broad white smiles. "I have heard that in the Sunset Kingdoms men take solemn vows to keep chaste and father no children, but live only for their duty. Is it not so?"
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
Removal of the penis makes sense in such a context, both to force obedience and to degrade the soldiers, but if you castrate a man then he loses most/all(?) of his ability to produce testosterone. Testosterone, being desirable for a soldier that relies on strength and fighting prowess, would be foolish to get rid of.
So for a (supposedly) elite army, why would it make sense to do so?
game-of-thrones a-song-of-ice-and-fire
add a comment |
This came up on another question, where in A Song of Ice and Fire (the books Game of Thrones is based on), the Unsullied have all of their genitalia removed, not just the penis.
"In Yunkai and Meereen, eunuchs are often made by removing a boy's testicles, but leaving the penis. Such a creature is infertile, yet often still capable of erection. Only trouble can come of this. We remove the penis as well, leaving nothing. The Unsullied are the purest creatures on the earth." He gave Dany and Arstan another of his broad white smiles. "I have heard that in the Sunset Kingdoms men take solemn vows to keep chaste and father no children, but live only for their duty. Is it not so?"
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
Removal of the penis makes sense in such a context, both to force obedience and to degrade the soldiers, but if you castrate a man then he loses most/all(?) of his ability to produce testosterone. Testosterone, being desirable for a soldier that relies on strength and fighting prowess, would be foolish to get rid of.
So for a (supposedly) elite army, why would it make sense to do so?
game-of-thrones a-song-of-ice-and-fire
1
Doesn't the Good Master answer your question in the quote you included? The logic is quite clearly spelled out. Or are you asking whether we agree with it?
– Andres F.
8 hours ago
1
@AndresF. The quote goes from a starting position of castrating but leaving the penis, and concludes it's better to remove it as well. It doesn't cover the situation where you just remove the penis, since that achieves aims such as infertility while preserving testosterone production.
– adickinson
8 hours ago
You're right, I misread your question.
– Andres F.
6 hours ago
Rulers in many cultures have used eunuchs in personal bodyguards, and especially as harem guards, so there have historically been military units made up of eunuchs.
– Davislor
30 mins ago
add a comment |
This came up on another question, where in A Song of Ice and Fire (the books Game of Thrones is based on), the Unsullied have all of their genitalia removed, not just the penis.
"In Yunkai and Meereen, eunuchs are often made by removing a boy's testicles, but leaving the penis. Such a creature is infertile, yet often still capable of erection. Only trouble can come of this. We remove the penis as well, leaving nothing. The Unsullied are the purest creatures on the earth." He gave Dany and Arstan another of his broad white smiles. "I have heard that in the Sunset Kingdoms men take solemn vows to keep chaste and father no children, but live only for their duty. Is it not so?"
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
Removal of the penis makes sense in such a context, both to force obedience and to degrade the soldiers, but if you castrate a man then he loses most/all(?) of his ability to produce testosterone. Testosterone, being desirable for a soldier that relies on strength and fighting prowess, would be foolish to get rid of.
So for a (supposedly) elite army, why would it make sense to do so?
game-of-thrones a-song-of-ice-and-fire
This came up on another question, where in A Song of Ice and Fire (the books Game of Thrones is based on), the Unsullied have all of their genitalia removed, not just the penis.
"In Yunkai and Meereen, eunuchs are often made by removing a boy's testicles, but leaving the penis. Such a creature is infertile, yet often still capable of erection. Only trouble can come of this. We remove the penis as well, leaving nothing. The Unsullied are the purest creatures on the earth." He gave Dany and Arstan another of his broad white smiles. "I have heard that in the Sunset Kingdoms men take solemn vows to keep chaste and father no children, but live only for their duty. Is it not so?"
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
Removal of the penis makes sense in such a context, both to force obedience and to degrade the soldiers, but if you castrate a man then he loses most/all(?) of his ability to produce testosterone. Testosterone, being desirable for a soldier that relies on strength and fighting prowess, would be foolish to get rid of.
So for a (supposedly) elite army, why would it make sense to do so?
game-of-thrones a-song-of-ice-and-fire
game-of-thrones a-song-of-ice-and-fire
edited 8 hours ago
Jenayah
25.2k8117155
25.2k8117155
asked 8 hours ago
adickinsonadickinson
35318
35318
1
Doesn't the Good Master answer your question in the quote you included? The logic is quite clearly spelled out. Or are you asking whether we agree with it?
– Andres F.
8 hours ago
1
@AndresF. The quote goes from a starting position of castrating but leaving the penis, and concludes it's better to remove it as well. It doesn't cover the situation where you just remove the penis, since that achieves aims such as infertility while preserving testosterone production.
– adickinson
8 hours ago
You're right, I misread your question.
– Andres F.
6 hours ago
Rulers in many cultures have used eunuchs in personal bodyguards, and especially as harem guards, so there have historically been military units made up of eunuchs.
– Davislor
30 mins ago
add a comment |
1
Doesn't the Good Master answer your question in the quote you included? The logic is quite clearly spelled out. Or are you asking whether we agree with it?
– Andres F.
8 hours ago
1
@AndresF. The quote goes from a starting position of castrating but leaving the penis, and concludes it's better to remove it as well. It doesn't cover the situation where you just remove the penis, since that achieves aims such as infertility while preserving testosterone production.
– adickinson
8 hours ago
You're right, I misread your question.
– Andres F.
6 hours ago
Rulers in many cultures have used eunuchs in personal bodyguards, and especially as harem guards, so there have historically been military units made up of eunuchs.
– Davislor
30 mins ago
1
1
Doesn't the Good Master answer your question in the quote you included? The logic is quite clearly spelled out. Or are you asking whether we agree with it?
– Andres F.
8 hours ago
Doesn't the Good Master answer your question in the quote you included? The logic is quite clearly spelled out. Or are you asking whether we agree with it?
– Andres F.
8 hours ago
1
1
@AndresF. The quote goes from a starting position of castrating but leaving the penis, and concludes it's better to remove it as well. It doesn't cover the situation where you just remove the penis, since that achieves aims such as infertility while preserving testosterone production.
– adickinson
8 hours ago
@AndresF. The quote goes from a starting position of castrating but leaving the penis, and concludes it's better to remove it as well. It doesn't cover the situation where you just remove the penis, since that achieves aims such as infertility while preserving testosterone production.
– adickinson
8 hours ago
You're right, I misread your question.
– Andres F.
6 hours ago
You're right, I misread your question.
– Andres F.
6 hours ago
Rulers in many cultures have used eunuchs in personal bodyguards, and especially as harem guards, so there have historically been military units made up of eunuchs.
– Davislor
30 mins ago
Rulers in many cultures have used eunuchs in personal bodyguards, and especially as harem guards, so there have historically been military units made up of eunuchs.
– Davislor
30 mins ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
The unsullied are an analog of the Roman Legion.
The most important quality in a legionnaire wasn't his testosterone fueled aggression, it was discipline.
In fact - when holding a shield wall - the last thing you wanted was a hothead beside you breaking formation and bringing the attack to the enemy. You held, the guys behind you pistoned their spears forwards between your shields, your did up close work with your Gladius (short sword).
Fully castrating the unsullied removed a major distraction, their upbringing/training forged them into perfect Legionnaires. They ignore wounds, hold the shield wall, and slowly and carefully wear down their attackers. They were made almost into automata, no humanity, no distractions. They would hold or advance as commanded, regardless of what was thrown at them.
Their lack of testosterone worked in their masters favor.
2
Although I entirely agree with this answer about the superiority of fighting skills and teamwork, I'm extremely skeptical about both the validity of the reasoning behind the Unsullied and the likelihood that any fighting force would actually employ such methods. Castration wasn't necessary for teamwork, as that very Roman Legion shows. And sex is far from the only thing distracting a fighter, yet the masters of the Unsullied insist that they can train them to avoid motivations such as wealth or power or friendship.
– Adamant
8 hours ago
3
@Adamant: In formulating arguments for why an ancient order of slavers would mutilate boys in specific ways to make them a better army, I find I have sickened myself of the conversation (this is not your fault). I'm done mate.
– Binary Worrier
7 hours ago
@MishaR: Thanks :)
– Binary Worrier
6 hours ago
@Adamant surely this isn't the first time you've seen people with a strongly held belief with no basis in science?
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The existing answers already cover the question, I will just add a quote, from the same chapter as yours, were Daenerys understood that all soldiers are eunuch, and ask the same question to Kraznys mo Nakloz
Some of the soldiers were tall and some were short. They ranged in age from fourteen to twenty, she judged. Their cheeks were smooth, and their eyes all the same, be they black or brown or blue or grey or amber. They are like one man, Dany thought, until she remembered that they were no men at all. The Unsullied were eunuchs, every one of them. "Why do you cut them?" she asked Kraznys through the slave girl. "Whole men are stronger than eunuchs, I have always heard."
"A eunuch who is cut young will never have the brute strength of one of your Westerosi knights, this is true," said Kraznys mo Nakloz when the question was put to him. "A bull is strong as well, but bulls die every day in the fighting pits. A girl of nine killed one not three days past in Jothiel's Pit. The Unsullied have something better than strength, tell her. They have discipline. We fight in the fashion of the Old Empire, yes. They are the lockstep legions of Old Ghis come again, absolutely obedient, absolutely loyal, and utterly without fear."
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
I wonder how trustworthy the castrated men are afterwards. Some years ago, due to tumours, my cat had to be castrated. I took it to the vets and collected it the next day. It was very angry and spitting at me on the way home and spent the next six years scratching at me and hissing and generally trying to kill me without mercy.... clearly it blamed me for it's new lifestyle
– DannyMcG
4 hours ago
@DannyMcG the imperial Chinese seemed to believe castration made some courtiers more trustworthy. History shows they were treacherous.
– Andres F.
47 mins ago
add a comment |
Soldiers do not need to be strong to fight.
Soldiers do not need to be skilled at fighting to fight well.
All a soldier needs to be able to do is obey orders without question or hesitation. And most importantly to never break formation or retreat from the fight.
Battles--especially during the middle ages--are fought until one side loses the will to fight. War is not about killing your enemy it is about convincing your enemy to give up and stop resisting. They are about breaking your enemies will to fight, so that they become subservient to you.
The unsullied are an elite army because they are disciplined and do not fear death or pain. They will continue on fighting when other soldiers would have run in terror for their lives.
Armour and weapons are heavy though. Wouldn't extra muscle help to carry that weight?
– adickinson
8 hours ago
6
@adickinson: You're assuming a eunuch won't build muscle because the don't produce testerone. They will build muscle, just not as quickly as a man with working testes. The unsullied train and work out, they have plenty of muscle.
– Binary Worrier
8 hours ago
1
@adickinson Someone with more testosterone and the same amount of training is more likely to have the muscle to carry those. But, in a face-off between two armies, resolve and aggression are the absolute first priority. This has to do with many factors - battle fatigue, the reluctance of solders' to kill other people, the front rows' reluctance to attack (and likely die), etc. Discipline is also by far the most important thing during actual fighting, since it prevents fear and shock from interfering with good judgment. As for heavy stuff, well, it's good, but light stuff can be good too.
– Misha R
6 hours ago
2
@adickinson Note, though, that the Unsullied are not near as heavily armored as Westerosi knights.
– Geobits
4 hours ago
Although not related to the situation under discussion, there are combat roles where physical strength is not as important as it is for infantry. Archers, for instance, need far less strength, and having less muscle mass is a bonus for mounted archers.
– EvilSnack
41 mins ago
add a comment |
It is worth mentioning that the Unsullied were never really meant to operate as a whole elite army.
They were known as the best infantry in the world, but mostly sold as slaves perhaps in batches of 10 to 100. Not necessarily just to regents intending to use them in war, but to also to merchants and similar, who wished to use them in times of peace.
Clients who perhaps wished to avoid having soldiers constantly in search for either money, booze or women. And so their discipline outside combat might be just as important as their discipline in combat. Idle, undisciplined soldiers means trouble.
add a comment |
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The unsullied are an analog of the Roman Legion.
The most important quality in a legionnaire wasn't his testosterone fueled aggression, it was discipline.
In fact - when holding a shield wall - the last thing you wanted was a hothead beside you breaking formation and bringing the attack to the enemy. You held, the guys behind you pistoned their spears forwards between your shields, your did up close work with your Gladius (short sword).
Fully castrating the unsullied removed a major distraction, their upbringing/training forged them into perfect Legionnaires. They ignore wounds, hold the shield wall, and slowly and carefully wear down their attackers. They were made almost into automata, no humanity, no distractions. They would hold or advance as commanded, regardless of what was thrown at them.
Their lack of testosterone worked in their masters favor.
2
Although I entirely agree with this answer about the superiority of fighting skills and teamwork, I'm extremely skeptical about both the validity of the reasoning behind the Unsullied and the likelihood that any fighting force would actually employ such methods. Castration wasn't necessary for teamwork, as that very Roman Legion shows. And sex is far from the only thing distracting a fighter, yet the masters of the Unsullied insist that they can train them to avoid motivations such as wealth or power or friendship.
– Adamant
8 hours ago
3
@Adamant: In formulating arguments for why an ancient order of slavers would mutilate boys in specific ways to make them a better army, I find I have sickened myself of the conversation (this is not your fault). I'm done mate.
– Binary Worrier
7 hours ago
@MishaR: Thanks :)
– Binary Worrier
6 hours ago
@Adamant surely this isn't the first time you've seen people with a strongly held belief with no basis in science?
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The unsullied are an analog of the Roman Legion.
The most important quality in a legionnaire wasn't his testosterone fueled aggression, it was discipline.
In fact - when holding a shield wall - the last thing you wanted was a hothead beside you breaking formation and bringing the attack to the enemy. You held, the guys behind you pistoned their spears forwards between your shields, your did up close work with your Gladius (short sword).
Fully castrating the unsullied removed a major distraction, their upbringing/training forged them into perfect Legionnaires. They ignore wounds, hold the shield wall, and slowly and carefully wear down their attackers. They were made almost into automata, no humanity, no distractions. They would hold or advance as commanded, regardless of what was thrown at them.
Their lack of testosterone worked in their masters favor.
2
Although I entirely agree with this answer about the superiority of fighting skills and teamwork, I'm extremely skeptical about both the validity of the reasoning behind the Unsullied and the likelihood that any fighting force would actually employ such methods. Castration wasn't necessary for teamwork, as that very Roman Legion shows. And sex is far from the only thing distracting a fighter, yet the masters of the Unsullied insist that they can train them to avoid motivations such as wealth or power or friendship.
– Adamant
8 hours ago
3
@Adamant: In formulating arguments for why an ancient order of slavers would mutilate boys in specific ways to make them a better army, I find I have sickened myself of the conversation (this is not your fault). I'm done mate.
– Binary Worrier
7 hours ago
@MishaR: Thanks :)
– Binary Worrier
6 hours ago
@Adamant surely this isn't the first time you've seen people with a strongly held belief with no basis in science?
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The unsullied are an analog of the Roman Legion.
The most important quality in a legionnaire wasn't his testosterone fueled aggression, it was discipline.
In fact - when holding a shield wall - the last thing you wanted was a hothead beside you breaking formation and bringing the attack to the enemy. You held, the guys behind you pistoned their spears forwards between your shields, your did up close work with your Gladius (short sword).
Fully castrating the unsullied removed a major distraction, their upbringing/training forged them into perfect Legionnaires. They ignore wounds, hold the shield wall, and slowly and carefully wear down their attackers. They were made almost into automata, no humanity, no distractions. They would hold or advance as commanded, regardless of what was thrown at them.
Their lack of testosterone worked in their masters favor.
The unsullied are an analog of the Roman Legion.
The most important quality in a legionnaire wasn't his testosterone fueled aggression, it was discipline.
In fact - when holding a shield wall - the last thing you wanted was a hothead beside you breaking formation and bringing the attack to the enemy. You held, the guys behind you pistoned their spears forwards between your shields, your did up close work with your Gladius (short sword).
Fully castrating the unsullied removed a major distraction, their upbringing/training forged them into perfect Legionnaires. They ignore wounds, hold the shield wall, and slowly and carefully wear down their attackers. They were made almost into automata, no humanity, no distractions. They would hold or advance as commanded, regardless of what was thrown at them.
Their lack of testosterone worked in their masters favor.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Binary WorrierBinary Worrier
8,78943955
8,78943955
2
Although I entirely agree with this answer about the superiority of fighting skills and teamwork, I'm extremely skeptical about both the validity of the reasoning behind the Unsullied and the likelihood that any fighting force would actually employ such methods. Castration wasn't necessary for teamwork, as that very Roman Legion shows. And sex is far from the only thing distracting a fighter, yet the masters of the Unsullied insist that they can train them to avoid motivations such as wealth or power or friendship.
– Adamant
8 hours ago
3
@Adamant: In formulating arguments for why an ancient order of slavers would mutilate boys in specific ways to make them a better army, I find I have sickened myself of the conversation (this is not your fault). I'm done mate.
– Binary Worrier
7 hours ago
@MishaR: Thanks :)
– Binary Worrier
6 hours ago
@Adamant surely this isn't the first time you've seen people with a strongly held belief with no basis in science?
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
2
Although I entirely agree with this answer about the superiority of fighting skills and teamwork, I'm extremely skeptical about both the validity of the reasoning behind the Unsullied and the likelihood that any fighting force would actually employ such methods. Castration wasn't necessary for teamwork, as that very Roman Legion shows. And sex is far from the only thing distracting a fighter, yet the masters of the Unsullied insist that they can train them to avoid motivations such as wealth or power or friendship.
– Adamant
8 hours ago
3
@Adamant: In formulating arguments for why an ancient order of slavers would mutilate boys in specific ways to make them a better army, I find I have sickened myself of the conversation (this is not your fault). I'm done mate.
– Binary Worrier
7 hours ago
@MishaR: Thanks :)
– Binary Worrier
6 hours ago
@Adamant surely this isn't the first time you've seen people with a strongly held belief with no basis in science?
– Paul
1 hour ago
2
2
Although I entirely agree with this answer about the superiority of fighting skills and teamwork, I'm extremely skeptical about both the validity of the reasoning behind the Unsullied and the likelihood that any fighting force would actually employ such methods. Castration wasn't necessary for teamwork, as that very Roman Legion shows. And sex is far from the only thing distracting a fighter, yet the masters of the Unsullied insist that they can train them to avoid motivations such as wealth or power or friendship.
– Adamant
8 hours ago
Although I entirely agree with this answer about the superiority of fighting skills and teamwork, I'm extremely skeptical about both the validity of the reasoning behind the Unsullied and the likelihood that any fighting force would actually employ such methods. Castration wasn't necessary for teamwork, as that very Roman Legion shows. And sex is far from the only thing distracting a fighter, yet the masters of the Unsullied insist that they can train them to avoid motivations such as wealth or power or friendship.
– Adamant
8 hours ago
3
3
@Adamant: In formulating arguments for why an ancient order of slavers would mutilate boys in specific ways to make them a better army, I find I have sickened myself of the conversation (this is not your fault). I'm done mate.
– Binary Worrier
7 hours ago
@Adamant: In formulating arguments for why an ancient order of slavers would mutilate boys in specific ways to make them a better army, I find I have sickened myself of the conversation (this is not your fault). I'm done mate.
– Binary Worrier
7 hours ago
@MishaR: Thanks :)
– Binary Worrier
6 hours ago
@MishaR: Thanks :)
– Binary Worrier
6 hours ago
@Adamant surely this isn't the first time you've seen people with a strongly held belief with no basis in science?
– Paul
1 hour ago
@Adamant surely this isn't the first time you've seen people with a strongly held belief with no basis in science?
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The existing answers already cover the question, I will just add a quote, from the same chapter as yours, were Daenerys understood that all soldiers are eunuch, and ask the same question to Kraznys mo Nakloz
Some of the soldiers were tall and some were short. They ranged in age from fourteen to twenty, she judged. Their cheeks were smooth, and their eyes all the same, be they black or brown or blue or grey or amber. They are like one man, Dany thought, until she remembered that they were no men at all. The Unsullied were eunuchs, every one of them. "Why do you cut them?" she asked Kraznys through the slave girl. "Whole men are stronger than eunuchs, I have always heard."
"A eunuch who is cut young will never have the brute strength of one of your Westerosi knights, this is true," said Kraznys mo Nakloz when the question was put to him. "A bull is strong as well, but bulls die every day in the fighting pits. A girl of nine killed one not three days past in Jothiel's Pit. The Unsullied have something better than strength, tell her. They have discipline. We fight in the fashion of the Old Empire, yes. They are the lockstep legions of Old Ghis come again, absolutely obedient, absolutely loyal, and utterly without fear."
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
I wonder how trustworthy the castrated men are afterwards. Some years ago, due to tumours, my cat had to be castrated. I took it to the vets and collected it the next day. It was very angry and spitting at me on the way home and spent the next six years scratching at me and hissing and generally trying to kill me without mercy.... clearly it blamed me for it's new lifestyle
– DannyMcG
4 hours ago
@DannyMcG the imperial Chinese seemed to believe castration made some courtiers more trustworthy. History shows they were treacherous.
– Andres F.
47 mins ago
add a comment |
The existing answers already cover the question, I will just add a quote, from the same chapter as yours, were Daenerys understood that all soldiers are eunuch, and ask the same question to Kraznys mo Nakloz
Some of the soldiers were tall and some were short. They ranged in age from fourteen to twenty, she judged. Their cheeks were smooth, and their eyes all the same, be they black or brown or blue or grey or amber. They are like one man, Dany thought, until she remembered that they were no men at all. The Unsullied were eunuchs, every one of them. "Why do you cut them?" she asked Kraznys through the slave girl. "Whole men are stronger than eunuchs, I have always heard."
"A eunuch who is cut young will never have the brute strength of one of your Westerosi knights, this is true," said Kraznys mo Nakloz when the question was put to him. "A bull is strong as well, but bulls die every day in the fighting pits. A girl of nine killed one not three days past in Jothiel's Pit. The Unsullied have something better than strength, tell her. They have discipline. We fight in the fashion of the Old Empire, yes. They are the lockstep legions of Old Ghis come again, absolutely obedient, absolutely loyal, and utterly without fear."
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
I wonder how trustworthy the castrated men are afterwards. Some years ago, due to tumours, my cat had to be castrated. I took it to the vets and collected it the next day. It was very angry and spitting at me on the way home and spent the next six years scratching at me and hissing and generally trying to kill me without mercy.... clearly it blamed me for it's new lifestyle
– DannyMcG
4 hours ago
@DannyMcG the imperial Chinese seemed to believe castration made some courtiers more trustworthy. History shows they were treacherous.
– Andres F.
47 mins ago
add a comment |
The existing answers already cover the question, I will just add a quote, from the same chapter as yours, were Daenerys understood that all soldiers are eunuch, and ask the same question to Kraznys mo Nakloz
Some of the soldiers were tall and some were short. They ranged in age from fourteen to twenty, she judged. Their cheeks were smooth, and their eyes all the same, be they black or brown or blue or grey or amber. They are like one man, Dany thought, until she remembered that they were no men at all. The Unsullied were eunuchs, every one of them. "Why do you cut them?" she asked Kraznys through the slave girl. "Whole men are stronger than eunuchs, I have always heard."
"A eunuch who is cut young will never have the brute strength of one of your Westerosi knights, this is true," said Kraznys mo Nakloz when the question was put to him. "A bull is strong as well, but bulls die every day in the fighting pits. A girl of nine killed one not three days past in Jothiel's Pit. The Unsullied have something better than strength, tell her. They have discipline. We fight in the fashion of the Old Empire, yes. They are the lockstep legions of Old Ghis come again, absolutely obedient, absolutely loyal, and utterly without fear."
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
The existing answers already cover the question, I will just add a quote, from the same chapter as yours, were Daenerys understood that all soldiers are eunuch, and ask the same question to Kraznys mo Nakloz
Some of the soldiers were tall and some were short. They ranged in age from fourteen to twenty, she judged. Their cheeks were smooth, and their eyes all the same, be they black or brown or blue or grey or amber. They are like one man, Dany thought, until she remembered that they were no men at all. The Unsullied were eunuchs, every one of them. "Why do you cut them?" she asked Kraznys through the slave girl. "Whole men are stronger than eunuchs, I have always heard."
"A eunuch who is cut young will never have the brute strength of one of your Westerosi knights, this is true," said Kraznys mo Nakloz when the question was put to him. "A bull is strong as well, but bulls die every day in the fighting pits. A girl of nine killed one not three days past in Jothiel's Pit. The Unsullied have something better than strength, tell her. They have discipline. We fight in the fashion of the Old Empire, yes. They are the lockstep legions of Old Ghis come again, absolutely obedient, absolutely loyal, and utterly without fear."
-- A Storm of Swords, chapter Daenerys II
edited 7 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
KepotxKepotx
6,56333270
6,56333270
I wonder how trustworthy the castrated men are afterwards. Some years ago, due to tumours, my cat had to be castrated. I took it to the vets and collected it the next day. It was very angry and spitting at me on the way home and spent the next six years scratching at me and hissing and generally trying to kill me without mercy.... clearly it blamed me for it's new lifestyle
– DannyMcG
4 hours ago
@DannyMcG the imperial Chinese seemed to believe castration made some courtiers more trustworthy. History shows they were treacherous.
– Andres F.
47 mins ago
add a comment |
I wonder how trustworthy the castrated men are afterwards. Some years ago, due to tumours, my cat had to be castrated. I took it to the vets and collected it the next day. It was very angry and spitting at me on the way home and spent the next six years scratching at me and hissing and generally trying to kill me without mercy.... clearly it blamed me for it's new lifestyle
– DannyMcG
4 hours ago
@DannyMcG the imperial Chinese seemed to believe castration made some courtiers more trustworthy. History shows they were treacherous.
– Andres F.
47 mins ago
I wonder how trustworthy the castrated men are afterwards. Some years ago, due to tumours, my cat had to be castrated. I took it to the vets and collected it the next day. It was very angry and spitting at me on the way home and spent the next six years scratching at me and hissing and generally trying to kill me without mercy.... clearly it blamed me for it's new lifestyle
– DannyMcG
4 hours ago
I wonder how trustworthy the castrated men are afterwards. Some years ago, due to tumours, my cat had to be castrated. I took it to the vets and collected it the next day. It was very angry and spitting at me on the way home and spent the next six years scratching at me and hissing and generally trying to kill me without mercy.... clearly it blamed me for it's new lifestyle
– DannyMcG
4 hours ago
@DannyMcG the imperial Chinese seemed to believe castration made some courtiers more trustworthy. History shows they were treacherous.
– Andres F.
47 mins ago
@DannyMcG the imperial Chinese seemed to believe castration made some courtiers more trustworthy. History shows they were treacherous.
– Andres F.
47 mins ago
add a comment |
Soldiers do not need to be strong to fight.
Soldiers do not need to be skilled at fighting to fight well.
All a soldier needs to be able to do is obey orders without question or hesitation. And most importantly to never break formation or retreat from the fight.
Battles--especially during the middle ages--are fought until one side loses the will to fight. War is not about killing your enemy it is about convincing your enemy to give up and stop resisting. They are about breaking your enemies will to fight, so that they become subservient to you.
The unsullied are an elite army because they are disciplined and do not fear death or pain. They will continue on fighting when other soldiers would have run in terror for their lives.
Armour and weapons are heavy though. Wouldn't extra muscle help to carry that weight?
– adickinson
8 hours ago
6
@adickinson: You're assuming a eunuch won't build muscle because the don't produce testerone. They will build muscle, just not as quickly as a man with working testes. The unsullied train and work out, they have plenty of muscle.
– Binary Worrier
8 hours ago
1
@adickinson Someone with more testosterone and the same amount of training is more likely to have the muscle to carry those. But, in a face-off between two armies, resolve and aggression are the absolute first priority. This has to do with many factors - battle fatigue, the reluctance of solders' to kill other people, the front rows' reluctance to attack (and likely die), etc. Discipline is also by far the most important thing during actual fighting, since it prevents fear and shock from interfering with good judgment. As for heavy stuff, well, it's good, but light stuff can be good too.
– Misha R
6 hours ago
2
@adickinson Note, though, that the Unsullied are not near as heavily armored as Westerosi knights.
– Geobits
4 hours ago
Although not related to the situation under discussion, there are combat roles where physical strength is not as important as it is for infantry. Archers, for instance, need far less strength, and having less muscle mass is a bonus for mounted archers.
– EvilSnack
41 mins ago
add a comment |
Soldiers do not need to be strong to fight.
Soldiers do not need to be skilled at fighting to fight well.
All a soldier needs to be able to do is obey orders without question or hesitation. And most importantly to never break formation or retreat from the fight.
Battles--especially during the middle ages--are fought until one side loses the will to fight. War is not about killing your enemy it is about convincing your enemy to give up and stop resisting. They are about breaking your enemies will to fight, so that they become subservient to you.
The unsullied are an elite army because they are disciplined and do not fear death or pain. They will continue on fighting when other soldiers would have run in terror for their lives.
Armour and weapons are heavy though. Wouldn't extra muscle help to carry that weight?
– adickinson
8 hours ago
6
@adickinson: You're assuming a eunuch won't build muscle because the don't produce testerone. They will build muscle, just not as quickly as a man with working testes. The unsullied train and work out, they have plenty of muscle.
– Binary Worrier
8 hours ago
1
@adickinson Someone with more testosterone and the same amount of training is more likely to have the muscle to carry those. But, in a face-off between two armies, resolve and aggression are the absolute first priority. This has to do with many factors - battle fatigue, the reluctance of solders' to kill other people, the front rows' reluctance to attack (and likely die), etc. Discipline is also by far the most important thing during actual fighting, since it prevents fear and shock from interfering with good judgment. As for heavy stuff, well, it's good, but light stuff can be good too.
– Misha R
6 hours ago
2
@adickinson Note, though, that the Unsullied are not near as heavily armored as Westerosi knights.
– Geobits
4 hours ago
Although not related to the situation under discussion, there are combat roles where physical strength is not as important as it is for infantry. Archers, for instance, need far less strength, and having less muscle mass is a bonus for mounted archers.
– EvilSnack
41 mins ago
add a comment |
Soldiers do not need to be strong to fight.
Soldiers do not need to be skilled at fighting to fight well.
All a soldier needs to be able to do is obey orders without question or hesitation. And most importantly to never break formation or retreat from the fight.
Battles--especially during the middle ages--are fought until one side loses the will to fight. War is not about killing your enemy it is about convincing your enemy to give up and stop resisting. They are about breaking your enemies will to fight, so that they become subservient to you.
The unsullied are an elite army because they are disciplined and do not fear death or pain. They will continue on fighting when other soldiers would have run in terror for their lives.
Soldiers do not need to be strong to fight.
Soldiers do not need to be skilled at fighting to fight well.
All a soldier needs to be able to do is obey orders without question or hesitation. And most importantly to never break formation or retreat from the fight.
Battles--especially during the middle ages--are fought until one side loses the will to fight. War is not about killing your enemy it is about convincing your enemy to give up and stop resisting. They are about breaking your enemies will to fight, so that they become subservient to you.
The unsullied are an elite army because they are disciplined and do not fear death or pain. They will continue on fighting when other soldiers would have run in terror for their lives.
answered 8 hours ago
Garret GangGarret Gang
93849
93849
Armour and weapons are heavy though. Wouldn't extra muscle help to carry that weight?
– adickinson
8 hours ago
6
@adickinson: You're assuming a eunuch won't build muscle because the don't produce testerone. They will build muscle, just not as quickly as a man with working testes. The unsullied train and work out, they have plenty of muscle.
– Binary Worrier
8 hours ago
1
@adickinson Someone with more testosterone and the same amount of training is more likely to have the muscle to carry those. But, in a face-off between two armies, resolve and aggression are the absolute first priority. This has to do with many factors - battle fatigue, the reluctance of solders' to kill other people, the front rows' reluctance to attack (and likely die), etc. Discipline is also by far the most important thing during actual fighting, since it prevents fear and shock from interfering with good judgment. As for heavy stuff, well, it's good, but light stuff can be good too.
– Misha R
6 hours ago
2
@adickinson Note, though, that the Unsullied are not near as heavily armored as Westerosi knights.
– Geobits
4 hours ago
Although not related to the situation under discussion, there are combat roles where physical strength is not as important as it is for infantry. Archers, for instance, need far less strength, and having less muscle mass is a bonus for mounted archers.
– EvilSnack
41 mins ago
add a comment |
Armour and weapons are heavy though. Wouldn't extra muscle help to carry that weight?
– adickinson
8 hours ago
6
@adickinson: You're assuming a eunuch won't build muscle because the don't produce testerone. They will build muscle, just not as quickly as a man with working testes. The unsullied train and work out, they have plenty of muscle.
– Binary Worrier
8 hours ago
1
@adickinson Someone with more testosterone and the same amount of training is more likely to have the muscle to carry those. But, in a face-off between two armies, resolve and aggression are the absolute first priority. This has to do with many factors - battle fatigue, the reluctance of solders' to kill other people, the front rows' reluctance to attack (and likely die), etc. Discipline is also by far the most important thing during actual fighting, since it prevents fear and shock from interfering with good judgment. As for heavy stuff, well, it's good, but light stuff can be good too.
– Misha R
6 hours ago
2
@adickinson Note, though, that the Unsullied are not near as heavily armored as Westerosi knights.
– Geobits
4 hours ago
Although not related to the situation under discussion, there are combat roles where physical strength is not as important as it is for infantry. Archers, for instance, need far less strength, and having less muscle mass is a bonus for mounted archers.
– EvilSnack
41 mins ago
Armour and weapons are heavy though. Wouldn't extra muscle help to carry that weight?
– adickinson
8 hours ago
Armour and weapons are heavy though. Wouldn't extra muscle help to carry that weight?
– adickinson
8 hours ago
6
6
@adickinson: You're assuming a eunuch won't build muscle because the don't produce testerone. They will build muscle, just not as quickly as a man with working testes. The unsullied train and work out, they have plenty of muscle.
– Binary Worrier
8 hours ago
@adickinson: You're assuming a eunuch won't build muscle because the don't produce testerone. They will build muscle, just not as quickly as a man with working testes. The unsullied train and work out, they have plenty of muscle.
– Binary Worrier
8 hours ago
1
1
@adickinson Someone with more testosterone and the same amount of training is more likely to have the muscle to carry those. But, in a face-off between two armies, resolve and aggression are the absolute first priority. This has to do with many factors - battle fatigue, the reluctance of solders' to kill other people, the front rows' reluctance to attack (and likely die), etc. Discipline is also by far the most important thing during actual fighting, since it prevents fear and shock from interfering with good judgment. As for heavy stuff, well, it's good, but light stuff can be good too.
– Misha R
6 hours ago
@adickinson Someone with more testosterone and the same amount of training is more likely to have the muscle to carry those. But, in a face-off between two armies, resolve and aggression are the absolute first priority. This has to do with many factors - battle fatigue, the reluctance of solders' to kill other people, the front rows' reluctance to attack (and likely die), etc. Discipline is also by far the most important thing during actual fighting, since it prevents fear and shock from interfering with good judgment. As for heavy stuff, well, it's good, but light stuff can be good too.
– Misha R
6 hours ago
2
2
@adickinson Note, though, that the Unsullied are not near as heavily armored as Westerosi knights.
– Geobits
4 hours ago
@adickinson Note, though, that the Unsullied are not near as heavily armored as Westerosi knights.
– Geobits
4 hours ago
Although not related to the situation under discussion, there are combat roles where physical strength is not as important as it is for infantry. Archers, for instance, need far less strength, and having less muscle mass is a bonus for mounted archers.
– EvilSnack
41 mins ago
Although not related to the situation under discussion, there are combat roles where physical strength is not as important as it is for infantry. Archers, for instance, need far less strength, and having less muscle mass is a bonus for mounted archers.
– EvilSnack
41 mins ago
add a comment |
It is worth mentioning that the Unsullied were never really meant to operate as a whole elite army.
They were known as the best infantry in the world, but mostly sold as slaves perhaps in batches of 10 to 100. Not necessarily just to regents intending to use them in war, but to also to merchants and similar, who wished to use them in times of peace.
Clients who perhaps wished to avoid having soldiers constantly in search for either money, booze or women. And so their discipline outside combat might be just as important as their discipline in combat. Idle, undisciplined soldiers means trouble.
add a comment |
It is worth mentioning that the Unsullied were never really meant to operate as a whole elite army.
They were known as the best infantry in the world, but mostly sold as slaves perhaps in batches of 10 to 100. Not necessarily just to regents intending to use them in war, but to also to merchants and similar, who wished to use them in times of peace.
Clients who perhaps wished to avoid having soldiers constantly in search for either money, booze or women. And so their discipline outside combat might be just as important as their discipline in combat. Idle, undisciplined soldiers means trouble.
add a comment |
It is worth mentioning that the Unsullied were never really meant to operate as a whole elite army.
They were known as the best infantry in the world, but mostly sold as slaves perhaps in batches of 10 to 100. Not necessarily just to regents intending to use them in war, but to also to merchants and similar, who wished to use them in times of peace.
Clients who perhaps wished to avoid having soldiers constantly in search for either money, booze or women. And so their discipline outside combat might be just as important as their discipline in combat. Idle, undisciplined soldiers means trouble.
It is worth mentioning that the Unsullied were never really meant to operate as a whole elite army.
They were known as the best infantry in the world, but mostly sold as slaves perhaps in batches of 10 to 100. Not necessarily just to regents intending to use them in war, but to also to merchants and similar, who wished to use them in times of peace.
Clients who perhaps wished to avoid having soldiers constantly in search for either money, booze or women. And so their discipline outside combat might be just as important as their discipline in combat. Idle, undisciplined soldiers means trouble.
answered 2 hours ago
AmarthAmarth
1,339213
1,339213
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
Doesn't the Good Master answer your question in the quote you included? The logic is quite clearly spelled out. Or are you asking whether we agree with it?
– Andres F.
8 hours ago
1
@AndresF. The quote goes from a starting position of castrating but leaving the penis, and concludes it's better to remove it as well. It doesn't cover the situation where you just remove the penis, since that achieves aims such as infertility while preserving testosterone production.
– adickinson
8 hours ago
You're right, I misread your question.
– Andres F.
6 hours ago
Rulers in many cultures have used eunuchs in personal bodyguards, and especially as harem guards, so there have historically been military units made up of eunuchs.
– Davislor
30 mins ago