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Is this really better analyzed in G minor than in Bb?


Harmonising cadences given the bass line. When and when not to use inversions?Chord Sequence AnalysisWhat scale degrees form the most-used chords in a minor tonality?What's going on in measures 11 - 16 of Beethoven's Sonata Appasionata?How a chord is analyzed as a “chromatic mediant of the V”?How to overcome emotional tension with this Beethoven rondoChromatic 7th chords going upwards in Beethoven






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3















So I have been analysing Rondo a Capriccio by Beethoven and I reached a point where a so called "expert's" opinion and mine differ drastically. It starts at bar 57 and continues to bar 68. After the last eighth in bar 68, my opinion and their opinion as far as the analysis are the same. First I will show both my opinion and the expert's opinion as far as analysis.



Here is mine:
enter image description hereenter image description here



As you can see, my opinion as far as analysis is concerned has 2 harmonic areas, Bb and Gm. Now here is the expert's opinion about these same measures:
enter image description hereenter image description here



As you can see, the so called expert thinks that the entire passage is in Gm. It makes for there being fewer modulations, but what previously made total sense is nonsense now. Like the vi ii V I, one of the most common chord progressions becoming i iv VII III, which is just total nonsense, even in a minor key. Also, the resolution to III diminishes the sense that you are in a minor tonality to begin with.



My way of analysing it avoids this problem by having the section from bars 57-68 be in Bb until it reaches the last eighth note of bar 68, at which point it pivots to Gm and it only makes sense in Gm.



Here is my reasoning behind analysing bars 57-68 in Bb instead of Gm:




Yes, you would expect to hear Bb major chords in a G minor piece. But in a G minor piece, if there is a resolution to III, that typically is a modulation to Bb and thus is truly a resolution to I, not III. VI and VII on the other hand can be resolved to without a sense of modulation in a minor key, just like how in a major key, you can resolve to vi without actually modulating to vi. So it just makes more sense to me for bars 57-68 to be in Bb, regardless of whether that means there is a modulation later on or not. And besides, Rondo a Capriccio has frequent modulations anyway.



Also, typically, in a minor key, III does not get inverted whatsoever. It usually is in root position. Here, if the whole passage is analyzed as being in Gm, you get all 3 inversions. There are only 2 chords(3 if you extend it to seventh chords) that typically get all the inversions. Those being I and V in major and i and V in minor(and also vii°7 if you extend it to seventh chords). Other chords like IV or vi typically only get 2 of the 3 inversions and a few others like III typically aren't inverted at all. So to see all 3 inversions of what is supposedly III in Gm makes me doubt that it is in Gm at all and instead think that it is in Bb.




So am I right in saying that it starts in Bb and then pivots to Gm? Or is the expert right in saying that the entire passage from bar 57 is in Gm? Which one makes more sense harmonically speaking, my analysis or the expert's analysis?










share|improve this question
























  • In Bb I’d say the second half of bar 63 is V7 because of the Eb, which further strengthens the Bb major feel.

    – Todd Wilcox
    6 hours ago











  • The i iv VII III chord progression is not total nonsense in a minor key. The VII-III chord progression is very common in classical music from my findings, and I used it effectively myself in one of my earlier classical music compositions. Stringing it together with i-iv is not implausible at all. In fact, i-iv-VII-III makes a very powerful sequence.

    – Dekkadeci
    3 hours ago












  • May I ask who the expert is?

    – Richard
    2 hours ago











  • @Richard Teodor Lontos on Musescore.com is who I'm referring to. He commented on my harmonic analysis score there that bars 57-74 should all be analyzed in G minor instead of part of it being analyzed in Bb. Here is the link so you can see both his comment and my response to it: musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5667301

    – Caters
    1 hour ago

















3















So I have been analysing Rondo a Capriccio by Beethoven and I reached a point where a so called "expert's" opinion and mine differ drastically. It starts at bar 57 and continues to bar 68. After the last eighth in bar 68, my opinion and their opinion as far as the analysis are the same. First I will show both my opinion and the expert's opinion as far as analysis.



Here is mine:
enter image description hereenter image description here



As you can see, my opinion as far as analysis is concerned has 2 harmonic areas, Bb and Gm. Now here is the expert's opinion about these same measures:
enter image description hereenter image description here



As you can see, the so called expert thinks that the entire passage is in Gm. It makes for there being fewer modulations, but what previously made total sense is nonsense now. Like the vi ii V I, one of the most common chord progressions becoming i iv VII III, which is just total nonsense, even in a minor key. Also, the resolution to III diminishes the sense that you are in a minor tonality to begin with.



My way of analysing it avoids this problem by having the section from bars 57-68 be in Bb until it reaches the last eighth note of bar 68, at which point it pivots to Gm and it only makes sense in Gm.



Here is my reasoning behind analysing bars 57-68 in Bb instead of Gm:




Yes, you would expect to hear Bb major chords in a G minor piece. But in a G minor piece, if there is a resolution to III, that typically is a modulation to Bb and thus is truly a resolution to I, not III. VI and VII on the other hand can be resolved to without a sense of modulation in a minor key, just like how in a major key, you can resolve to vi without actually modulating to vi. So it just makes more sense to me for bars 57-68 to be in Bb, regardless of whether that means there is a modulation later on or not. And besides, Rondo a Capriccio has frequent modulations anyway.



Also, typically, in a minor key, III does not get inverted whatsoever. It usually is in root position. Here, if the whole passage is analyzed as being in Gm, you get all 3 inversions. There are only 2 chords(3 if you extend it to seventh chords) that typically get all the inversions. Those being I and V in major and i and V in minor(and also vii°7 if you extend it to seventh chords). Other chords like IV or vi typically only get 2 of the 3 inversions and a few others like III typically aren't inverted at all. So to see all 3 inversions of what is supposedly III in Gm makes me doubt that it is in Gm at all and instead think that it is in Bb.




So am I right in saying that it starts in Bb and then pivots to Gm? Or is the expert right in saying that the entire passage from bar 57 is in Gm? Which one makes more sense harmonically speaking, my analysis or the expert's analysis?










share|improve this question
























  • In Bb I’d say the second half of bar 63 is V7 because of the Eb, which further strengthens the Bb major feel.

    – Todd Wilcox
    6 hours ago











  • The i iv VII III chord progression is not total nonsense in a minor key. The VII-III chord progression is very common in classical music from my findings, and I used it effectively myself in one of my earlier classical music compositions. Stringing it together with i-iv is not implausible at all. In fact, i-iv-VII-III makes a very powerful sequence.

    – Dekkadeci
    3 hours ago












  • May I ask who the expert is?

    – Richard
    2 hours ago











  • @Richard Teodor Lontos on Musescore.com is who I'm referring to. He commented on my harmonic analysis score there that bars 57-74 should all be analyzed in G minor instead of part of it being analyzed in Bb. Here is the link so you can see both his comment and my response to it: musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5667301

    – Caters
    1 hour ago













3












3








3








So I have been analysing Rondo a Capriccio by Beethoven and I reached a point where a so called "expert's" opinion and mine differ drastically. It starts at bar 57 and continues to bar 68. After the last eighth in bar 68, my opinion and their opinion as far as the analysis are the same. First I will show both my opinion and the expert's opinion as far as analysis.



Here is mine:
enter image description hereenter image description here



As you can see, my opinion as far as analysis is concerned has 2 harmonic areas, Bb and Gm. Now here is the expert's opinion about these same measures:
enter image description hereenter image description here



As you can see, the so called expert thinks that the entire passage is in Gm. It makes for there being fewer modulations, but what previously made total sense is nonsense now. Like the vi ii V I, one of the most common chord progressions becoming i iv VII III, which is just total nonsense, even in a minor key. Also, the resolution to III diminishes the sense that you are in a minor tonality to begin with.



My way of analysing it avoids this problem by having the section from bars 57-68 be in Bb until it reaches the last eighth note of bar 68, at which point it pivots to Gm and it only makes sense in Gm.



Here is my reasoning behind analysing bars 57-68 in Bb instead of Gm:




Yes, you would expect to hear Bb major chords in a G minor piece. But in a G minor piece, if there is a resolution to III, that typically is a modulation to Bb and thus is truly a resolution to I, not III. VI and VII on the other hand can be resolved to without a sense of modulation in a minor key, just like how in a major key, you can resolve to vi without actually modulating to vi. So it just makes more sense to me for bars 57-68 to be in Bb, regardless of whether that means there is a modulation later on or not. And besides, Rondo a Capriccio has frequent modulations anyway.



Also, typically, in a minor key, III does not get inverted whatsoever. It usually is in root position. Here, if the whole passage is analyzed as being in Gm, you get all 3 inversions. There are only 2 chords(3 if you extend it to seventh chords) that typically get all the inversions. Those being I and V in major and i and V in minor(and also vii°7 if you extend it to seventh chords). Other chords like IV or vi typically only get 2 of the 3 inversions and a few others like III typically aren't inverted at all. So to see all 3 inversions of what is supposedly III in Gm makes me doubt that it is in Gm at all and instead think that it is in Bb.




So am I right in saying that it starts in Bb and then pivots to Gm? Or is the expert right in saying that the entire passage from bar 57 is in Gm? Which one makes more sense harmonically speaking, my analysis or the expert's analysis?










share|improve this question














So I have been analysing Rondo a Capriccio by Beethoven and I reached a point where a so called "expert's" opinion and mine differ drastically. It starts at bar 57 and continues to bar 68. After the last eighth in bar 68, my opinion and their opinion as far as the analysis are the same. First I will show both my opinion and the expert's opinion as far as analysis.



Here is mine:
enter image description hereenter image description here



As you can see, my opinion as far as analysis is concerned has 2 harmonic areas, Bb and Gm. Now here is the expert's opinion about these same measures:
enter image description hereenter image description here



As you can see, the so called expert thinks that the entire passage is in Gm. It makes for there being fewer modulations, but what previously made total sense is nonsense now. Like the vi ii V I, one of the most common chord progressions becoming i iv VII III, which is just total nonsense, even in a minor key. Also, the resolution to III diminishes the sense that you are in a minor tonality to begin with.



My way of analysing it avoids this problem by having the section from bars 57-68 be in Bb until it reaches the last eighth note of bar 68, at which point it pivots to Gm and it only makes sense in Gm.



Here is my reasoning behind analysing bars 57-68 in Bb instead of Gm:




Yes, you would expect to hear Bb major chords in a G minor piece. But in a G minor piece, if there is a resolution to III, that typically is a modulation to Bb and thus is truly a resolution to I, not III. VI and VII on the other hand can be resolved to without a sense of modulation in a minor key, just like how in a major key, you can resolve to vi without actually modulating to vi. So it just makes more sense to me for bars 57-68 to be in Bb, regardless of whether that means there is a modulation later on or not. And besides, Rondo a Capriccio has frequent modulations anyway.



Also, typically, in a minor key, III does not get inverted whatsoever. It usually is in root position. Here, if the whole passage is analyzed as being in Gm, you get all 3 inversions. There are only 2 chords(3 if you extend it to seventh chords) that typically get all the inversions. Those being I and V in major and i and V in minor(and also vii°7 if you extend it to seventh chords). Other chords like IV or vi typically only get 2 of the 3 inversions and a few others like III typically aren't inverted at all. So to see all 3 inversions of what is supposedly III in Gm makes me doubt that it is in Gm at all and instead think that it is in Bb.




So am I right in saying that it starts in Bb and then pivots to Gm? Or is the expert right in saying that the entire passage from bar 57 is in Gm? Which one makes more sense harmonically speaking, my analysis or the expert's analysis?







harmony analysis beethoven






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











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asked 8 hours ago









CatersCaters

1,5731 gold badge11 silver badges26 bronze badges




1,5731 gold badge11 silver badges26 bronze badges















  • In Bb I’d say the second half of bar 63 is V7 because of the Eb, which further strengthens the Bb major feel.

    – Todd Wilcox
    6 hours ago











  • The i iv VII III chord progression is not total nonsense in a minor key. The VII-III chord progression is very common in classical music from my findings, and I used it effectively myself in one of my earlier classical music compositions. Stringing it together with i-iv is not implausible at all. In fact, i-iv-VII-III makes a very powerful sequence.

    – Dekkadeci
    3 hours ago












  • May I ask who the expert is?

    – Richard
    2 hours ago











  • @Richard Teodor Lontos on Musescore.com is who I'm referring to. He commented on my harmonic analysis score there that bars 57-74 should all be analyzed in G minor instead of part of it being analyzed in Bb. Here is the link so you can see both his comment and my response to it: musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5667301

    – Caters
    1 hour ago

















  • In Bb I’d say the second half of bar 63 is V7 because of the Eb, which further strengthens the Bb major feel.

    – Todd Wilcox
    6 hours ago











  • The i iv VII III chord progression is not total nonsense in a minor key. The VII-III chord progression is very common in classical music from my findings, and I used it effectively myself in one of my earlier classical music compositions. Stringing it together with i-iv is not implausible at all. In fact, i-iv-VII-III makes a very powerful sequence.

    – Dekkadeci
    3 hours ago












  • May I ask who the expert is?

    – Richard
    2 hours ago











  • @Richard Teodor Lontos on Musescore.com is who I'm referring to. He commented on my harmonic analysis score there that bars 57-74 should all be analyzed in G minor instead of part of it being analyzed in Bb. Here is the link so you can see both his comment and my response to it: musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5667301

    – Caters
    1 hour ago
















In Bb I’d say the second half of bar 63 is V7 because of the Eb, which further strengthens the Bb major feel.

– Todd Wilcox
6 hours ago





In Bb I’d say the second half of bar 63 is V7 because of the Eb, which further strengthens the Bb major feel.

– Todd Wilcox
6 hours ago













The i iv VII III chord progression is not total nonsense in a minor key. The VII-III chord progression is very common in classical music from my findings, and I used it effectively myself in one of my earlier classical music compositions. Stringing it together with i-iv is not implausible at all. In fact, i-iv-VII-III makes a very powerful sequence.

– Dekkadeci
3 hours ago






The i iv VII III chord progression is not total nonsense in a minor key. The VII-III chord progression is very common in classical music from my findings, and I used it effectively myself in one of my earlier classical music compositions. Stringing it together with i-iv is not implausible at all. In fact, i-iv-VII-III makes a very powerful sequence.

– Dekkadeci
3 hours ago














May I ask who the expert is?

– Richard
2 hours ago





May I ask who the expert is?

– Richard
2 hours ago













@Richard Teodor Lontos on Musescore.com is who I'm referring to. He commented on my harmonic analysis score there that bars 57-74 should all be analyzed in G minor instead of part of it being analyzed in Bb. Here is the link so you can see both his comment and my response to it: musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5667301

– Caters
1 hour ago





@Richard Teodor Lontos on Musescore.com is who I'm referring to. He commented on my harmonic analysis score there that bars 57-74 should all be analyzed in G minor instead of part of it being analyzed in Bb. Here is the link so you can see both his comment and my response to it: musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5667301

– Caters
1 hour ago










2 Answers
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I suggest that it's ridiculous to analyse 57 as anything but i in G minor, but equally ridiculous to analyse the cadence at 64/65 as anything other than V-I in B♭ major. So have both. G minor at 57 with an immediate modulation to B♭ major. After that, at 64, it's a bit more up for grabs. We know we're in G minor by bar 72. What tonal centre do you prefer at bar 65? A new one every couple of bars or not? Perhaps Roman numerals aren't all that useful in this section!



Look at the whole piece. Up to bar 57 we have been firmly in G major, key signature one sharp, and apart from an occasional 'V of V' completely diatonic. The change at 57 is clearly to i of G minor (not vi of B♭ major), and your 'expert' has preferred to treat the entire section up to the return of G major as based on that key. I see his point, from a structural viewpoint, though I think it results, when analysing the detail, in Roman numbers that aren't always very helpful.



https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/201476






share|improve this answer



























  • but i iv VII III, which would be like vi ii V I but in minor, makes no harmonic sense because VII isn't a dominant function chord in minor. And the resolution to III and III showing up in all 3 inversions both weaken the minor tonality. The presence of III, III6, and III64 in particular makes it sound like the true tonic is actually Bb for that entire section, at least until bar 68 where afterwards, it only makes sense in G minor. If bars 57-68 are analysed in Bb major, these problems don't exist and it makes much more harmonic sense.

    – Caters
    7 hours ago












  • I was actually largely agreeing with you! I've edited my answer to hopefully make it clearer.

    – Laurence Payne
    7 hours ago











  • @Caters If you want to say it’s in Bb right at 57 then it’s a “crash and go” modulation, which seems reasonable for Beethoven, but at least as reasonable is a modulation to Bb over a few bars (57-60) via a smoother modulation to the parallel minor. In the end, as long as you see what’s going on I think you can be comfortable with your analysis. There’s not necessarily one right answer for this kind of thing. I agree with this answer that the cadence at 63-64/65 is very strong in Bb and also once you get the F#s in 70 that really makes it sound like G Minor.

    – Todd Wilcox
    6 hours ago



















2














Using the word "key" is too definite. The music progresses through lots of different tonal centers but most of them don't last long enough to be worth calling "keys".



Both of you are wrong about the whole passage, but the "expert" is more wrong.



The point which you both missed is the sequence in bars 66-70 with a V-I cadences in Bb major, C minor, and D major - which of course is the dominant of G, so we arrive back home.



Equally, trying to pretend that a G minor chord after a full cadence in G major is in any tonal center other than G is just ignoring what the music sounds like.



So, somewhere between bars 57 and 65 (and don't forget the passage is repeated) the tonal center shifts from G minor to B flat major. Exactly where does that happen? Frankly, who cares! If you like, you can claim you are both right, and the first time through the repeat is in G minor, but the second time in is B flat major. There is no rule that music has to have a unique, unambiguous analysis according to the "rules" in some textbook, and most good music is ambiguous to greater or lesser degree. The chord in "bar 57 following bar 56" doesn't necessarily have the same harmonic function as the chord in "bar 57 following bar 64" even though the notes are the same.



Incidentally, claiming that bar 75 is anything except a fresh start in Eb major is just as nonsensical as the debate in the OP. Once again, stop looking at the score, and start listening!






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    2 Answers
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    I suggest that it's ridiculous to analyse 57 as anything but i in G minor, but equally ridiculous to analyse the cadence at 64/65 as anything other than V-I in B♭ major. So have both. G minor at 57 with an immediate modulation to B♭ major. After that, at 64, it's a bit more up for grabs. We know we're in G minor by bar 72. What tonal centre do you prefer at bar 65? A new one every couple of bars or not? Perhaps Roman numerals aren't all that useful in this section!



    Look at the whole piece. Up to bar 57 we have been firmly in G major, key signature one sharp, and apart from an occasional 'V of V' completely diatonic. The change at 57 is clearly to i of G minor (not vi of B♭ major), and your 'expert' has preferred to treat the entire section up to the return of G major as based on that key. I see his point, from a structural viewpoint, though I think it results, when analysing the detail, in Roman numbers that aren't always very helpful.



    https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/201476






    share|improve this answer



























    • but i iv VII III, which would be like vi ii V I but in minor, makes no harmonic sense because VII isn't a dominant function chord in minor. And the resolution to III and III showing up in all 3 inversions both weaken the minor tonality. The presence of III, III6, and III64 in particular makes it sound like the true tonic is actually Bb for that entire section, at least until bar 68 where afterwards, it only makes sense in G minor. If bars 57-68 are analysed in Bb major, these problems don't exist and it makes much more harmonic sense.

      – Caters
      7 hours ago












    • I was actually largely agreeing with you! I've edited my answer to hopefully make it clearer.

      – Laurence Payne
      7 hours ago











    • @Caters If you want to say it’s in Bb right at 57 then it’s a “crash and go” modulation, which seems reasonable for Beethoven, but at least as reasonable is a modulation to Bb over a few bars (57-60) via a smoother modulation to the parallel minor. In the end, as long as you see what’s going on I think you can be comfortable with your analysis. There’s not necessarily one right answer for this kind of thing. I agree with this answer that the cadence at 63-64/65 is very strong in Bb and also once you get the F#s in 70 that really makes it sound like G Minor.

      – Todd Wilcox
      6 hours ago
















    2














    I suggest that it's ridiculous to analyse 57 as anything but i in G minor, but equally ridiculous to analyse the cadence at 64/65 as anything other than V-I in B♭ major. So have both. G minor at 57 with an immediate modulation to B♭ major. After that, at 64, it's a bit more up for grabs. We know we're in G minor by bar 72. What tonal centre do you prefer at bar 65? A new one every couple of bars or not? Perhaps Roman numerals aren't all that useful in this section!



    Look at the whole piece. Up to bar 57 we have been firmly in G major, key signature one sharp, and apart from an occasional 'V of V' completely diatonic. The change at 57 is clearly to i of G minor (not vi of B♭ major), and your 'expert' has preferred to treat the entire section up to the return of G major as based on that key. I see his point, from a structural viewpoint, though I think it results, when analysing the detail, in Roman numbers that aren't always very helpful.



    https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/201476






    share|improve this answer



























    • but i iv VII III, which would be like vi ii V I but in minor, makes no harmonic sense because VII isn't a dominant function chord in minor. And the resolution to III and III showing up in all 3 inversions both weaken the minor tonality. The presence of III, III6, and III64 in particular makes it sound like the true tonic is actually Bb for that entire section, at least until bar 68 where afterwards, it only makes sense in G minor. If bars 57-68 are analysed in Bb major, these problems don't exist and it makes much more harmonic sense.

      – Caters
      7 hours ago












    • I was actually largely agreeing with you! I've edited my answer to hopefully make it clearer.

      – Laurence Payne
      7 hours ago











    • @Caters If you want to say it’s in Bb right at 57 then it’s a “crash and go” modulation, which seems reasonable for Beethoven, but at least as reasonable is a modulation to Bb over a few bars (57-60) via a smoother modulation to the parallel minor. In the end, as long as you see what’s going on I think you can be comfortable with your analysis. There’s not necessarily one right answer for this kind of thing. I agree with this answer that the cadence at 63-64/65 is very strong in Bb and also once you get the F#s in 70 that really makes it sound like G Minor.

      – Todd Wilcox
      6 hours ago














    2












    2








    2







    I suggest that it's ridiculous to analyse 57 as anything but i in G minor, but equally ridiculous to analyse the cadence at 64/65 as anything other than V-I in B♭ major. So have both. G minor at 57 with an immediate modulation to B♭ major. After that, at 64, it's a bit more up for grabs. We know we're in G minor by bar 72. What tonal centre do you prefer at bar 65? A new one every couple of bars or not? Perhaps Roman numerals aren't all that useful in this section!



    Look at the whole piece. Up to bar 57 we have been firmly in G major, key signature one sharp, and apart from an occasional 'V of V' completely diatonic. The change at 57 is clearly to i of G minor (not vi of B♭ major), and your 'expert' has preferred to treat the entire section up to the return of G major as based on that key. I see his point, from a structural viewpoint, though I think it results, when analysing the detail, in Roman numbers that aren't always very helpful.



    https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/201476






    share|improve this answer















    I suggest that it's ridiculous to analyse 57 as anything but i in G minor, but equally ridiculous to analyse the cadence at 64/65 as anything other than V-I in B♭ major. So have both. G minor at 57 with an immediate modulation to B♭ major. After that, at 64, it's a bit more up for grabs. We know we're in G minor by bar 72. What tonal centre do you prefer at bar 65? A new one every couple of bars or not? Perhaps Roman numerals aren't all that useful in this section!



    Look at the whole piece. Up to bar 57 we have been firmly in G major, key signature one sharp, and apart from an occasional 'V of V' completely diatonic. The change at 57 is clearly to i of G minor (not vi of B♭ major), and your 'expert' has preferred to treat the entire section up to the return of G major as based on that key. I see his point, from a structural viewpoint, though I think it results, when analysing the detail, in Roman numbers that aren't always very helpful.



    https://musescore.com/classicman/scores/201476







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 7 hours ago

























    answered 7 hours ago









    Laurence PayneLaurence Payne

    42.6k24 silver badges84 bronze badges




    42.6k24 silver badges84 bronze badges















    • but i iv VII III, which would be like vi ii V I but in minor, makes no harmonic sense because VII isn't a dominant function chord in minor. And the resolution to III and III showing up in all 3 inversions both weaken the minor tonality. The presence of III, III6, and III64 in particular makes it sound like the true tonic is actually Bb for that entire section, at least until bar 68 where afterwards, it only makes sense in G minor. If bars 57-68 are analysed in Bb major, these problems don't exist and it makes much more harmonic sense.

      – Caters
      7 hours ago












    • I was actually largely agreeing with you! I've edited my answer to hopefully make it clearer.

      – Laurence Payne
      7 hours ago











    • @Caters If you want to say it’s in Bb right at 57 then it’s a “crash and go” modulation, which seems reasonable for Beethoven, but at least as reasonable is a modulation to Bb over a few bars (57-60) via a smoother modulation to the parallel minor. In the end, as long as you see what’s going on I think you can be comfortable with your analysis. There’s not necessarily one right answer for this kind of thing. I agree with this answer that the cadence at 63-64/65 is very strong in Bb and also once you get the F#s in 70 that really makes it sound like G Minor.

      – Todd Wilcox
      6 hours ago


















    • but i iv VII III, which would be like vi ii V I but in minor, makes no harmonic sense because VII isn't a dominant function chord in minor. And the resolution to III and III showing up in all 3 inversions both weaken the minor tonality. The presence of III, III6, and III64 in particular makes it sound like the true tonic is actually Bb for that entire section, at least until bar 68 where afterwards, it only makes sense in G minor. If bars 57-68 are analysed in Bb major, these problems don't exist and it makes much more harmonic sense.

      – Caters
      7 hours ago












    • I was actually largely agreeing with you! I've edited my answer to hopefully make it clearer.

      – Laurence Payne
      7 hours ago











    • @Caters If you want to say it’s in Bb right at 57 then it’s a “crash and go” modulation, which seems reasonable for Beethoven, but at least as reasonable is a modulation to Bb over a few bars (57-60) via a smoother modulation to the parallel minor. In the end, as long as you see what’s going on I think you can be comfortable with your analysis. There’s not necessarily one right answer for this kind of thing. I agree with this answer that the cadence at 63-64/65 is very strong in Bb and also once you get the F#s in 70 that really makes it sound like G Minor.

      – Todd Wilcox
      6 hours ago

















    but i iv VII III, which would be like vi ii V I but in minor, makes no harmonic sense because VII isn't a dominant function chord in minor. And the resolution to III and III showing up in all 3 inversions both weaken the minor tonality. The presence of III, III6, and III64 in particular makes it sound like the true tonic is actually Bb for that entire section, at least until bar 68 where afterwards, it only makes sense in G minor. If bars 57-68 are analysed in Bb major, these problems don't exist and it makes much more harmonic sense.

    – Caters
    7 hours ago






    but i iv VII III, which would be like vi ii V I but in minor, makes no harmonic sense because VII isn't a dominant function chord in minor. And the resolution to III and III showing up in all 3 inversions both weaken the minor tonality. The presence of III, III6, and III64 in particular makes it sound like the true tonic is actually Bb for that entire section, at least until bar 68 where afterwards, it only makes sense in G minor. If bars 57-68 are analysed in Bb major, these problems don't exist and it makes much more harmonic sense.

    – Caters
    7 hours ago














    I was actually largely agreeing with you! I've edited my answer to hopefully make it clearer.

    – Laurence Payne
    7 hours ago





    I was actually largely agreeing with you! I've edited my answer to hopefully make it clearer.

    – Laurence Payne
    7 hours ago













    @Caters If you want to say it’s in Bb right at 57 then it’s a “crash and go” modulation, which seems reasonable for Beethoven, but at least as reasonable is a modulation to Bb over a few bars (57-60) via a smoother modulation to the parallel minor. In the end, as long as you see what’s going on I think you can be comfortable with your analysis. There’s not necessarily one right answer for this kind of thing. I agree with this answer that the cadence at 63-64/65 is very strong in Bb and also once you get the F#s in 70 that really makes it sound like G Minor.

    – Todd Wilcox
    6 hours ago






    @Caters If you want to say it’s in Bb right at 57 then it’s a “crash and go” modulation, which seems reasonable for Beethoven, but at least as reasonable is a modulation to Bb over a few bars (57-60) via a smoother modulation to the parallel minor. In the end, as long as you see what’s going on I think you can be comfortable with your analysis. There’s not necessarily one right answer for this kind of thing. I agree with this answer that the cadence at 63-64/65 is very strong in Bb and also once you get the F#s in 70 that really makes it sound like G Minor.

    – Todd Wilcox
    6 hours ago














    2














    Using the word "key" is too definite. The music progresses through lots of different tonal centers but most of them don't last long enough to be worth calling "keys".



    Both of you are wrong about the whole passage, but the "expert" is more wrong.



    The point which you both missed is the sequence in bars 66-70 with a V-I cadences in Bb major, C minor, and D major - which of course is the dominant of G, so we arrive back home.



    Equally, trying to pretend that a G minor chord after a full cadence in G major is in any tonal center other than G is just ignoring what the music sounds like.



    So, somewhere between bars 57 and 65 (and don't forget the passage is repeated) the tonal center shifts from G minor to B flat major. Exactly where does that happen? Frankly, who cares! If you like, you can claim you are both right, and the first time through the repeat is in G minor, but the second time in is B flat major. There is no rule that music has to have a unique, unambiguous analysis according to the "rules" in some textbook, and most good music is ambiguous to greater or lesser degree. The chord in "bar 57 following bar 56" doesn't necessarily have the same harmonic function as the chord in "bar 57 following bar 64" even though the notes are the same.



    Incidentally, claiming that bar 75 is anything except a fresh start in Eb major is just as nonsensical as the debate in the OP. Once again, stop looking at the score, and start listening!






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor



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      2














      Using the word "key" is too definite. The music progresses through lots of different tonal centers but most of them don't last long enough to be worth calling "keys".



      Both of you are wrong about the whole passage, but the "expert" is more wrong.



      The point which you both missed is the sequence in bars 66-70 with a V-I cadences in Bb major, C minor, and D major - which of course is the dominant of G, so we arrive back home.



      Equally, trying to pretend that a G minor chord after a full cadence in G major is in any tonal center other than G is just ignoring what the music sounds like.



      So, somewhere between bars 57 and 65 (and don't forget the passage is repeated) the tonal center shifts from G minor to B flat major. Exactly where does that happen? Frankly, who cares! If you like, you can claim you are both right, and the first time through the repeat is in G minor, but the second time in is B flat major. There is no rule that music has to have a unique, unambiguous analysis according to the "rules" in some textbook, and most good music is ambiguous to greater or lesser degree. The chord in "bar 57 following bar 56" doesn't necessarily have the same harmonic function as the chord in "bar 57 following bar 64" even though the notes are the same.



      Incidentally, claiming that bar 75 is anything except a fresh start in Eb major is just as nonsensical as the debate in the OP. Once again, stop looking at the score, and start listening!






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor



      guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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        2












        2








        2







        Using the word "key" is too definite. The music progresses through lots of different tonal centers but most of them don't last long enough to be worth calling "keys".



        Both of you are wrong about the whole passage, but the "expert" is more wrong.



        The point which you both missed is the sequence in bars 66-70 with a V-I cadences in Bb major, C minor, and D major - which of course is the dominant of G, so we arrive back home.



        Equally, trying to pretend that a G minor chord after a full cadence in G major is in any tonal center other than G is just ignoring what the music sounds like.



        So, somewhere between bars 57 and 65 (and don't forget the passage is repeated) the tonal center shifts from G minor to B flat major. Exactly where does that happen? Frankly, who cares! If you like, you can claim you are both right, and the first time through the repeat is in G minor, but the second time in is B flat major. There is no rule that music has to have a unique, unambiguous analysis according to the "rules" in some textbook, and most good music is ambiguous to greater or lesser degree. The chord in "bar 57 following bar 56" doesn't necessarily have the same harmonic function as the chord in "bar 57 following bar 64" even though the notes are the same.



        Incidentally, claiming that bar 75 is anything except a fresh start in Eb major is just as nonsensical as the debate in the OP. Once again, stop looking at the score, and start listening!






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor



        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        Using the word "key" is too definite. The music progresses through lots of different tonal centers but most of them don't last long enough to be worth calling "keys".



        Both of you are wrong about the whole passage, but the "expert" is more wrong.



        The point which you both missed is the sequence in bars 66-70 with a V-I cadences in Bb major, C minor, and D major - which of course is the dominant of G, so we arrive back home.



        Equally, trying to pretend that a G minor chord after a full cadence in G major is in any tonal center other than G is just ignoring what the music sounds like.



        So, somewhere between bars 57 and 65 (and don't forget the passage is repeated) the tonal center shifts from G minor to B flat major. Exactly where does that happen? Frankly, who cares! If you like, you can claim you are both right, and the first time through the repeat is in G minor, but the second time in is B flat major. There is no rule that music has to have a unique, unambiguous analysis according to the "rules" in some textbook, and most good music is ambiguous to greater or lesser degree. The chord in "bar 57 following bar 56" doesn't necessarily have the same harmonic function as the chord in "bar 57 following bar 64" even though the notes are the same.



        Incidentally, claiming that bar 75 is anything except a fresh start in Eb major is just as nonsensical as the debate in the OP. Once again, stop looking at the score, and start listening!







        share|improve this answer








        New contributor



        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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        answered 5 hours ago









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