How G-d can be cursing one's sons (and spouse)?In reward-and-punishment system, what is the meaning of curses?How can we strengthen belief in the coming of Moshiach and the end of our exile?How can one give HaShem “Naḥat Ruaḥ”?What is one's purpose in life and how does one find it?How can we say everything is good?For purposes of how a Torah reader reads tochacha, where does it start and end?How did the Israelites worship without bread and wine for 40 years?Why were the curses written and not the blessings?Cursing Adam and Eve in addition to punishment?
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How G-d can be cursing one's sons (and spouse)?
In reward-and-punishment system, what is the meaning of curses?How can we strengthen belief in the coming of Moshiach and the end of our exile?How can one give HaShem “Naḥat Ruaḥ”?What is one's purpose in life and how does one find it?How can we say everything is good?For purposes of how a Torah reader reads tochacha, where does it start and end?How did the Israelites worship without bread and wine for 40 years?Why were the curses written and not the blessings?Cursing Adam and Eve in addition to punishment?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
To continue "what-is-the-meaning-of-curses,
Traditionally we compare our relations with Hashem to three types/levels: servants, sons (אם כבנים ואם כעבדים), and spouse (שה"ש).
While I can imagine cursing and threatening a slave/servant I just can't think of cursing my beloved kids or spouse.
How the curses of the Torah can be applied to the Bechinah of sons and spouse?
hashkafah-philosophy curse ki-tavo
asked 8 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
add a comment
|
To continue "what-is-the-meaning-of-curses,
Traditionally we compare our relations with Hashem to three types/levels: servants, sons (אם כבנים ואם כעבדים), and spouse (שה"ש).
While I can imagine cursing and threatening a slave/servant I just can't think of cursing my beloved kids or spouse.
How the curses of the Torah can be applied to the Bechinah of sons and spouse?
hashkafah-philosophy curse ki-tavo
asked 8 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
@Salmononius2 it seems you misunderstood the question. we are G-d's sons, right (אבינו מלכנו). How a loving father can say such curses (פרשת קללות) to his sons? Nothing to do with punishment.
– Al Berko
7 hours ago
You are correct, I misunderstood the question. Deleted my comment accordingly.
– Salmononius2
6 hours ago
I see the comparison to a son. But, I'm not seeing the usage / comparison to a spouse, here.
– DanF
5 hours ago
add a comment
|
To continue "what-is-the-meaning-of-curses,
Traditionally we compare our relations with Hashem to three types/levels: servants, sons (אם כבנים ואם כעבדים), and spouse (שה"ש).
While I can imagine cursing and threatening a slave/servant I just can't think of cursing my beloved kids or spouse.
How the curses of the Torah can be applied to the Bechinah of sons and spouse?
hashkafah-philosophy curse ki-tavo
asked 8 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
To continue "what-is-the-meaning-of-curses,
Traditionally we compare our relations with Hashem to three types/levels: servants, sons (אם כבנים ואם כעבדים), and spouse (שה"ש).
While I can imagine cursing and threatening a slave/servant I just can't think of cursing my beloved kids or spouse.
How the curses of the Torah can be applied to the Bechinah of sons and spouse?
hashkafah-philosophy curse ki-tavo
hashkafah-philosophy curse ki-tavo
asked 8 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
9,7272 gold badges10 silver badges38 bronze badges
@Salmononius2 it seems you misunderstood the question. we are G-d's sons, right (אבינו מלכנו). How a loving father can say such curses (פרשת קללות) to his sons? Nothing to do with punishment.
– Al Berko
7 hours ago
You are correct, I misunderstood the question. Deleted my comment accordingly.
– Salmononius2
6 hours ago
I see the comparison to a son. But, I'm not seeing the usage / comparison to a spouse, here.
– DanF
5 hours ago
add a comment
|
@Salmononius2 it seems you misunderstood the question. we are G-d's sons, right (אבינו מלכנו). How a loving father can say such curses (פרשת קללות) to his sons? Nothing to do with punishment.
– Al Berko
7 hours ago
You are correct, I misunderstood the question. Deleted my comment accordingly.
– Salmononius2
6 hours ago
I see the comparison to a son. But, I'm not seeing the usage / comparison to a spouse, here.
– DanF
5 hours ago
@Salmononius2 it seems you misunderstood the question. we are G-d's sons, right (אבינו מלכנו). How a loving father can say such curses (פרשת קללות) to his sons? Nothing to do with punishment.
– Al Berko
7 hours ago
@Salmononius2 it seems you misunderstood the question. we are G-d's sons, right (אבינו מלכנו). How a loving father can say such curses (פרשת קללות) to his sons? Nothing to do with punishment.
– Al Berko
7 hours ago
You are correct, I misunderstood the question. Deleted my comment accordingly.
– Salmononius2
6 hours ago
You are correct, I misunderstood the question. Deleted my comment accordingly.
– Salmononius2
6 hours ago
I see the comparison to a son. But, I'm not seeing the usage / comparison to a spouse, here.
– DanF
5 hours ago
I see the comparison to a son. But, I'm not seeing the usage / comparison to a spouse, here.
– DanF
5 hours ago
add a comment
|
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
Devarim 8:5
...כי כאשר ייסר איש את בנו ה א-לוהיך מיסריך
(My rough translation):
In the same way that a man disciplines his son, so does God discipline you.
See the various commentaries via the link. I like Avi Ezer who says that when a father discplines his child, he punishes hime with his left hand but draws him close with his love, in his right. The discipline is done when the son sins against his father. The father does this so that his son will repent and show his love for his father.
The "curses" are actual warnings and a form of discipline that God places on his people (children) when they disobey God's commandments. However, even while disciplining, God still loves his children and requests that they repent from their behavior.
answered 5 hours ago
DanFDanF
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
1
In viewing this answer, review the definition of arur in the other question. It doesn't mean "curse" like we know it ion the English language using 4-letter words or other insults. It means placing an "ouster" from society or something similar. It's a status.
– DanF
5 hours ago
2
I think (thank) you truly (and unwillingly) enlightened me! You nailed it! Back in gazillions BCE the relations were exactly as you pictured it - kids (and the spouse) were [considered] the father's property and the attitude was accordingly that - just as slaves. So torturing (לענות) and beating (חוסך שבטו) a kid was a norm and thoughtfully endorsed. My mistake was to project our worldview on the previous generations, that, unfortunately, had very different stands and standards.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
Sorry for not marking it as accepted as I'd like to let others offer additional opinions.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
@AlBerko I won't delve into what happened to slaves and how, unfortunately, severe physical punishment from them was, and still is, passed onto innocent children. On the opposite spectrum, much of U.S. society encourages total freedom of any type of behavior including leaving kids all sorts of bizarre "decisions" that they shouldn't be deciding on their own. We all see the results of the lack of appropriate and strict discipline that can be appropriate without being abusive. In actuality, the Torah does not promote abuse, but promotes strict obedience. That's how it should be.
– DanF
3 hours ago
to continue on the same note... I think this is the meaning of the end of Sotah "בן קם באביו", not meaning kids will become rude and impudent, but kids will rise to the level of their fathers, considering them equal. (same is true for equality in marriage btw). This is exatly what is happening today, kids (wives) demanding equity and us treating them equally and very differently from ages before. This is the point where the Torah becomes [ir]-less relevant being exchanged for תורה חדשה (no clue what it can be).
– Al Berko
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Devarim 8:5
...כי כאשר ייסר איש את בנו ה א-לוהיך מיסריך
(My rough translation):
In the same way that a man disciplines his son, so does God discipline you.
See the various commentaries via the link. I like Avi Ezer who says that when a father discplines his child, he punishes hime with his left hand but draws him close with his love, in his right. The discipline is done when the son sins against his father. The father does this so that his son will repent and show his love for his father.
The "curses" are actual warnings and a form of discipline that God places on his people (children) when they disobey God's commandments. However, even while disciplining, God still loves his children and requests that they repent from their behavior.
answered 5 hours ago
DanFDanF
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
1
In viewing this answer, review the definition of arur in the other question. It doesn't mean "curse" like we know it ion the English language using 4-letter words or other insults. It means placing an "ouster" from society or something similar. It's a status.
– DanF
5 hours ago
2
I think (thank) you truly (and unwillingly) enlightened me! You nailed it! Back in gazillions BCE the relations were exactly as you pictured it - kids (and the spouse) were [considered] the father's property and the attitude was accordingly that - just as slaves. So torturing (לענות) and beating (חוסך שבטו) a kid was a norm and thoughtfully endorsed. My mistake was to project our worldview on the previous generations, that, unfortunately, had very different stands and standards.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
Sorry for not marking it as accepted as I'd like to let others offer additional opinions.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
@AlBerko I won't delve into what happened to slaves and how, unfortunately, severe physical punishment from them was, and still is, passed onto innocent children. On the opposite spectrum, much of U.S. society encourages total freedom of any type of behavior including leaving kids all sorts of bizarre "decisions" that they shouldn't be deciding on their own. We all see the results of the lack of appropriate and strict discipline that can be appropriate without being abusive. In actuality, the Torah does not promote abuse, but promotes strict obedience. That's how it should be.
– DanF
3 hours ago
to continue on the same note... I think this is the meaning of the end of Sotah "בן קם באביו", not meaning kids will become rude and impudent, but kids will rise to the level of their fathers, considering them equal. (same is true for equality in marriage btw). This is exatly what is happening today, kids (wives) demanding equity and us treating them equally and very differently from ages before. This is the point where the Torah becomes [ir]-less relevant being exchanged for תורה חדשה (no clue what it can be).
– Al Berko
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
Devarim 8:5
...כי כאשר ייסר איש את בנו ה א-לוהיך מיסריך
(My rough translation):
In the same way that a man disciplines his son, so does God discipline you.
See the various commentaries via the link. I like Avi Ezer who says that when a father discplines his child, he punishes hime with his left hand but draws him close with his love, in his right. The discipline is done when the son sins against his father. The father does this so that his son will repent and show his love for his father.
The "curses" are actual warnings and a form of discipline that God places on his people (children) when they disobey God's commandments. However, even while disciplining, God still loves his children and requests that they repent from their behavior.
answered 5 hours ago
DanFDanF
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
1
In viewing this answer, review the definition of arur in the other question. It doesn't mean "curse" like we know it ion the English language using 4-letter words or other insults. It means placing an "ouster" from society or something similar. It's a status.
– DanF
5 hours ago
2
I think (thank) you truly (and unwillingly) enlightened me! You nailed it! Back in gazillions BCE the relations were exactly as you pictured it - kids (and the spouse) were [considered] the father's property and the attitude was accordingly that - just as slaves. So torturing (לענות) and beating (חוסך שבטו) a kid was a norm and thoughtfully endorsed. My mistake was to project our worldview on the previous generations, that, unfortunately, had very different stands and standards.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
Sorry for not marking it as accepted as I'd like to let others offer additional opinions.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
@AlBerko I won't delve into what happened to slaves and how, unfortunately, severe physical punishment from them was, and still is, passed onto innocent children. On the opposite spectrum, much of U.S. society encourages total freedom of any type of behavior including leaving kids all sorts of bizarre "decisions" that they shouldn't be deciding on their own. We all see the results of the lack of appropriate and strict discipline that can be appropriate without being abusive. In actuality, the Torah does not promote abuse, but promotes strict obedience. That's how it should be.
– DanF
3 hours ago
to continue on the same note... I think this is the meaning of the end of Sotah "בן קם באביו", not meaning kids will become rude and impudent, but kids will rise to the level of their fathers, considering them equal. (same is true for equality in marriage btw). This is exatly what is happening today, kids (wives) demanding equity and us treating them equally and very differently from ages before. This is the point where the Torah becomes [ir]-less relevant being exchanged for תורה חדשה (no clue what it can be).
– Al Berko
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
Devarim 8:5
...כי כאשר ייסר איש את בנו ה א-לוהיך מיסריך
(My rough translation):
In the same way that a man disciplines his son, so does God discipline you.
See the various commentaries via the link. I like Avi Ezer who says that when a father discplines his child, he punishes hime with his left hand but draws him close with his love, in his right. The discipline is done when the son sins against his father. The father does this so that his son will repent and show his love for his father.
The "curses" are actual warnings and a form of discipline that God places on his people (children) when they disobey God's commandments. However, even while disciplining, God still loves his children and requests that they repent from their behavior.
answered 5 hours ago
DanFDanF
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
Devarim 8:5
...כי כאשר ייסר איש את בנו ה א-לוהיך מיסריך
(My rough translation):
In the same way that a man disciplines his son, so does God discipline you.
See the various commentaries via the link. I like Avi Ezer who says that when a father discplines his child, he punishes hime with his left hand but draws him close with his love, in his right. The discipline is done when the son sins against his father. The father does this so that his son will repent and show his love for his father.
The "curses" are actual warnings and a form of discipline that God places on his people (children) when they disobey God's commandments. However, even while disciplining, God still loves his children and requests that they repent from their behavior.
answered 5 hours ago
DanFDanF
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
DanFDanF
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
answered 5 hours ago
DanFDanF
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
answered 5 hours ago
DanFDanF
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
37.5k6 gold badges31 silver badges149 bronze badges
1
In viewing this answer, review the definition of arur in the other question. It doesn't mean "curse" like we know it ion the English language using 4-letter words or other insults. It means placing an "ouster" from society or something similar. It's a status.
– DanF
5 hours ago
2
I think (thank) you truly (and unwillingly) enlightened me! You nailed it! Back in gazillions BCE the relations were exactly as you pictured it - kids (and the spouse) were [considered] the father's property and the attitude was accordingly that - just as slaves. So torturing (לענות) and beating (חוסך שבטו) a kid was a norm and thoughtfully endorsed. My mistake was to project our worldview on the previous generations, that, unfortunately, had very different stands and standards.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
Sorry for not marking it as accepted as I'd like to let others offer additional opinions.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
@AlBerko I won't delve into what happened to slaves and how, unfortunately, severe physical punishment from them was, and still is, passed onto innocent children. On the opposite spectrum, much of U.S. society encourages total freedom of any type of behavior including leaving kids all sorts of bizarre "decisions" that they shouldn't be deciding on their own. We all see the results of the lack of appropriate and strict discipline that can be appropriate without being abusive. In actuality, the Torah does not promote abuse, but promotes strict obedience. That's how it should be.
– DanF
3 hours ago
to continue on the same note... I think this is the meaning of the end of Sotah "בן קם באביו", not meaning kids will become rude and impudent, but kids will rise to the level of their fathers, considering them equal. (same is true for equality in marriage btw). This is exatly what is happening today, kids (wives) demanding equity and us treating them equally and very differently from ages before. This is the point where the Torah becomes [ir]-less relevant being exchanged for תורה חדשה (no clue what it can be).
– Al Berko
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
1
In viewing this answer, review the definition of arur in the other question. It doesn't mean "curse" like we know it ion the English language using 4-letter words or other insults. It means placing an "ouster" from society or something similar. It's a status.
– DanF
5 hours ago
2
I think (thank) you truly (and unwillingly) enlightened me! You nailed it! Back in gazillions BCE the relations were exactly as you pictured it - kids (and the spouse) were [considered] the father's property and the attitude was accordingly that - just as slaves. So torturing (לענות) and beating (חוסך שבטו) a kid was a norm and thoughtfully endorsed. My mistake was to project our worldview on the previous generations, that, unfortunately, had very different stands and standards.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
Sorry for not marking it as accepted as I'd like to let others offer additional opinions.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
@AlBerko I won't delve into what happened to slaves and how, unfortunately, severe physical punishment from them was, and still is, passed onto innocent children. On the opposite spectrum, much of U.S. society encourages total freedom of any type of behavior including leaving kids all sorts of bizarre "decisions" that they shouldn't be deciding on their own. We all see the results of the lack of appropriate and strict discipline that can be appropriate without being abusive. In actuality, the Torah does not promote abuse, but promotes strict obedience. That's how it should be.
– DanF
3 hours ago
to continue on the same note... I think this is the meaning of the end of Sotah "בן קם באביו", not meaning kids will become rude and impudent, but kids will rise to the level of their fathers, considering them equal. (same is true for equality in marriage btw). This is exatly what is happening today, kids (wives) demanding equity and us treating them equally and very differently from ages before. This is the point where the Torah becomes [ir]-less relevant being exchanged for תורה חדשה (no clue what it can be).
– Al Berko
2 hours ago
1
1
In viewing this answer, review the definition of arur in the other question. It doesn't mean "curse" like we know it ion the English language using 4-letter words or other insults. It means placing an "ouster" from society or something similar. It's a status.
– DanF
5 hours ago
In viewing this answer, review the definition of arur in the other question. It doesn't mean "curse" like we know it ion the English language using 4-letter words or other insults. It means placing an "ouster" from society or something similar. It's a status.
– DanF
5 hours ago
2
2
I think (thank) you truly (and unwillingly) enlightened me! You nailed it! Back in gazillions BCE the relations were exactly as you pictured it - kids (and the spouse) were [considered] the father's property and the attitude was accordingly that - just as slaves. So torturing (לענות) and beating (חוסך שבטו) a kid was a norm and thoughtfully endorsed. My mistake was to project our worldview on the previous generations, that, unfortunately, had very different stands and standards.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
I think (thank) you truly (and unwillingly) enlightened me! You nailed it! Back in gazillions BCE the relations were exactly as you pictured it - kids (and the spouse) were [considered] the father's property and the attitude was accordingly that - just as slaves. So torturing (לענות) and beating (חוסך שבטו) a kid was a norm and thoughtfully endorsed. My mistake was to project our worldview on the previous generations, that, unfortunately, had very different stands and standards.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
1
Sorry for not marking it as accepted as I'd like to let others offer additional opinions.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
Sorry for not marking it as accepted as I'd like to let others offer additional opinions.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
1
1
@AlBerko I won't delve into what happened to slaves and how, unfortunately, severe physical punishment from them was, and still is, passed onto innocent children. On the opposite spectrum, much of U.S. society encourages total freedom of any type of behavior including leaving kids all sorts of bizarre "decisions" that they shouldn't be deciding on their own. We all see the results of the lack of appropriate and strict discipline that can be appropriate without being abusive. In actuality, the Torah does not promote abuse, but promotes strict obedience. That's how it should be.
– DanF
3 hours ago
@AlBerko I won't delve into what happened to slaves and how, unfortunately, severe physical punishment from them was, and still is, passed onto innocent children. On the opposite spectrum, much of U.S. society encourages total freedom of any type of behavior including leaving kids all sorts of bizarre "decisions" that they shouldn't be deciding on their own. We all see the results of the lack of appropriate and strict discipline that can be appropriate without being abusive. In actuality, the Torah does not promote abuse, but promotes strict obedience. That's how it should be.
– DanF
3 hours ago
to continue on the same note... I think this is the meaning of the end of Sotah "בן קם באביו", not meaning kids will become rude and impudent, but kids will rise to the level of their fathers, considering them equal. (same is true for equality in marriage btw). This is exatly what is happening today, kids (wives) demanding equity and us treating them equally and very differently from ages before. This is the point where the Torah becomes [ir]-less relevant being exchanged for תורה חדשה (no clue what it can be).
– Al Berko
2 hours ago
to continue on the same note... I think this is the meaning of the end of Sotah "בן קם באביו", not meaning kids will become rude and impudent, but kids will rise to the level of their fathers, considering them equal. (same is true for equality in marriage btw). This is exatly what is happening today, kids (wives) demanding equity and us treating them equally and very differently from ages before. This is the point where the Torah becomes [ir]-less relevant being exchanged for תורה חדשה (no clue what it can be).
– Al Berko
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
@Salmononius2 it seems you misunderstood the question. we are G-d's sons, right (אבינו מלכנו). How a loving father can say such curses (פרשת קללות) to his sons? Nothing to do with punishment.
– Al Berko
7 hours ago
You are correct, I misunderstood the question. Deleted my comment accordingly.
– Salmononius2
6 hours ago
I see the comparison to a son. But, I'm not seeing the usage / comparison to a spouse, here.
– DanF
5 hours ago