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If Manufacturer spice model and Datasheet give different values which should I use?


Problem with LED Matrix TestReference to understand LED data sheet specification, characteristic and way to use themControlling 10 high power LED with a Raspberry Pipspice virtual gnd simulationHow do I model an LED with SPICE WITHOUT access to a Manufacturer's Datasheetsemiconductor resistor vs resistor in SPICE modeling AltiumUsing optocoupler with MOSFET for dimming a LEDHow can I work out which pin is which in SPICE modelAn NPN BJT - from Spice to Ebers-MollModelling heat transfer from Power LED to metal bar






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








2












$begingroup$


I'm trying to simulate an LED circuit but I am getting a large difference in results from the simulation vs calculations done using the datasheet information. In this case both the spice model and the datasheet info are direct from the manufacturer. Given the large difference in results, I'm wondering which information I should base my design off of.



In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v. I'm wiring 4 of these LEDs in series with a target of 18mA. Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA.



Should I base the resistance off of the datasheet and ignore the simulation in this case, or should I base things more off of the simulation results? I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.



I'm attaching the specific simulation and Datasheet in this example here as well. I'm using a SML-P12WTT86R model LED from ROHM Semiconductor.



The datasheet is here.



Here is what I got from the spice simulation using ROHM's spice model.
enter image description here










share|improve this question











$endgroup$


















    2












    $begingroup$


    I'm trying to simulate an LED circuit but I am getting a large difference in results from the simulation vs calculations done using the datasheet information. In this case both the spice model and the datasheet info are direct from the manufacturer. Given the large difference in results, I'm wondering which information I should base my design off of.



    In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v. I'm wiring 4 of these LEDs in series with a target of 18mA. Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA.



    Should I base the resistance off of the datasheet and ignore the simulation in this case, or should I base things more off of the simulation results? I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.



    I'm attaching the specific simulation and Datasheet in this example here as well. I'm using a SML-P12WTT86R model LED from ROHM Semiconductor.



    The datasheet is here.



    Here is what I got from the spice simulation using ROHM's spice model.
    enter image description here










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$


      I'm trying to simulate an LED circuit but I am getting a large difference in results from the simulation vs calculations done using the datasheet information. In this case both the spice model and the datasheet info are direct from the manufacturer. Given the large difference in results, I'm wondering which information I should base my design off of.



      In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v. I'm wiring 4 of these LEDs in series with a target of 18mA. Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA.



      Should I base the resistance off of the datasheet and ignore the simulation in this case, or should I base things more off of the simulation results? I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.



      I'm attaching the specific simulation and Datasheet in this example here as well. I'm using a SML-P12WTT86R model LED from ROHM Semiconductor.



      The datasheet is here.



      Here is what I got from the spice simulation using ROHM's spice model.
      enter image description here










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      I'm trying to simulate an LED circuit but I am getting a large difference in results from the simulation vs calculations done using the datasheet information. In this case both the spice model and the datasheet info are direct from the manufacturer. Given the large difference in results, I'm wondering which information I should base my design off of.



      In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v. I'm wiring 4 of these LEDs in series with a target of 18mA. Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA.



      Should I base the resistance off of the datasheet and ignore the simulation in this case, or should I base things more off of the simulation results? I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.



      I'm attaching the specific simulation and Datasheet in this example here as well. I'm using a SML-P12WTT86R model LED from ROHM Semiconductor.



      The datasheet is here.



      Here is what I got from the spice simulation using ROHM's spice model.
      enter image description here







      led datasheet spice pspice






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 5 hours ago









      jusaca

      1,000320




      1,000320










      asked 6 hours ago









      CyFCyF

      258




      258




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          8












          $begingroup$


          In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v.




          If your circuit works for $V_f$ of 2.1 V, but fails for 2.134 V, then you need to get a new circuit.



          The forward voltage will vary due to manufacturing variations and junction temperature. And the variation will be more than 35 mV over realistic operating conditions.



          Also, keep in mind that the datasheet value is for an ambient temperature of 25 C, while SPICE is probably (unless you've added an option to specify otherwise) simulating a junction temperature of 25 C. That means the datasheet value reflects a higher junction temperature than the SPICE model. And forward voltage does typically drop with increasing temperature so it's conceivable both models are correct.




          Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA. ... I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.




          If this application requires the brightness to be controlled so carefully that the difference between 13.9 and 18 mA makes a difference, you should use a constant current LED driver instead of a simple resistive current limiter.



          But in most applications, users won't notice the difference in brightness due to this kind of current change. So you just live with some brightness variability to save cost. Modern LEDs are visibly lit even with 1 mA forward current so whether at 13.9 or 18 mA they will be quite bright.



          You could also reduce the variability by designing your resistive limiting circuit with more voltage overhead. Either use a higher voltage source (12 V maybe) and a larger resistor, or place 2 strings of 2 LEDs in parallel, so you have roughly 5 V overhead instead of just 1. The trade-off here is of course more power wasted in the resistors.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$




















            4












            $begingroup$

            Always follow the datasheet. I strongly recommend looking up some of Mike Engelhardt's videos or attend one of his seminars (Arrow sponsors a lot of them). While you're not using LTSpice, Mike has a very deep understanding of Spice simulation, the good, the bad, and the ugly. The reality is most Spice models are made by people that don't really understand them (aka. interns) and can't be trusted a large percent of the time.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Notice the datasheet value is also only a "typical", not a maximum or minimum.
              $endgroup$
              – The Photon
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @ThePhoton Didn't even look at the datasheet, I just know I've seen a lot of crappy Spice models over the years.
              $endgroup$
              – Matt Young
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              These days, SPICE models are more likely to be generated by specialized modeling consultants than by interns. The real problem isn't that the person making the model doesn't understand modeling, it's that they can't anticipate every use case that customers will try to apply the device to.
              $endgroup$
              – The Photon
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @ThePhoton If that's the case, they're ripping off semiconductor companies en masse. Just last month I ran into a Zener model whose performance did not match the datasheet at all, and I was just using it in an active clamp circuit. How can that not be anticipated?
              $endgroup$
              – Matt Young
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              I'm sure there are bad SPICE models out there. More often, websites are just mixed up about what file is what. Like you ask for the model for a 9 V zener and they give you the model for a 6 V zener with a very similar part number.
              $endgroup$
              – The Photon
              34 mins ago











            Your Answer





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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            8












            $begingroup$


            In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v.




            If your circuit works for $V_f$ of 2.1 V, but fails for 2.134 V, then you need to get a new circuit.



            The forward voltage will vary due to manufacturing variations and junction temperature. And the variation will be more than 35 mV over realistic operating conditions.



            Also, keep in mind that the datasheet value is for an ambient temperature of 25 C, while SPICE is probably (unless you've added an option to specify otherwise) simulating a junction temperature of 25 C. That means the datasheet value reflects a higher junction temperature than the SPICE model. And forward voltage does typically drop with increasing temperature so it's conceivable both models are correct.




            Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA. ... I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.




            If this application requires the brightness to be controlled so carefully that the difference between 13.9 and 18 mA makes a difference, you should use a constant current LED driver instead of a simple resistive current limiter.



            But in most applications, users won't notice the difference in brightness due to this kind of current change. So you just live with some brightness variability to save cost. Modern LEDs are visibly lit even with 1 mA forward current so whether at 13.9 or 18 mA they will be quite bright.



            You could also reduce the variability by designing your resistive limiting circuit with more voltage overhead. Either use a higher voltage source (12 V maybe) and a larger resistor, or place 2 strings of 2 LEDs in parallel, so you have roughly 5 V overhead instead of just 1. The trade-off here is of course more power wasted in the resistors.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$

















              8












              $begingroup$


              In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v.




              If your circuit works for $V_f$ of 2.1 V, but fails for 2.134 V, then you need to get a new circuit.



              The forward voltage will vary due to manufacturing variations and junction temperature. And the variation will be more than 35 mV over realistic operating conditions.



              Also, keep in mind that the datasheet value is for an ambient temperature of 25 C, while SPICE is probably (unless you've added an option to specify otherwise) simulating a junction temperature of 25 C. That means the datasheet value reflects a higher junction temperature than the SPICE model. And forward voltage does typically drop with increasing temperature so it's conceivable both models are correct.




              Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA. ... I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.




              If this application requires the brightness to be controlled so carefully that the difference between 13.9 and 18 mA makes a difference, you should use a constant current LED driver instead of a simple resistive current limiter.



              But in most applications, users won't notice the difference in brightness due to this kind of current change. So you just live with some brightness variability to save cost. Modern LEDs are visibly lit even with 1 mA forward current so whether at 13.9 or 18 mA they will be quite bright.



              You could also reduce the variability by designing your resistive limiting circuit with more voltage overhead. Either use a higher voltage source (12 V maybe) and a larger resistor, or place 2 strings of 2 LEDs in parallel, so you have roughly 5 V overhead instead of just 1. The trade-off here is of course more power wasted in the resistors.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$















                8












                8








                8





                $begingroup$


                In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v.




                If your circuit works for $V_f$ of 2.1 V, but fails for 2.134 V, then you need to get a new circuit.



                The forward voltage will vary due to manufacturing variations and junction temperature. And the variation will be more than 35 mV over realistic operating conditions.



                Also, keep in mind that the datasheet value is for an ambient temperature of 25 C, while SPICE is probably (unless you've added an option to specify otherwise) simulating a junction temperature of 25 C. That means the datasheet value reflects a higher junction temperature than the SPICE model. And forward voltage does typically drop with increasing temperature so it's conceivable both models are correct.




                Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA. ... I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.




                If this application requires the brightness to be controlled so carefully that the difference between 13.9 and 18 mA makes a difference, you should use a constant current LED driver instead of a simple resistive current limiter.



                But in most applications, users won't notice the difference in brightness due to this kind of current change. So you just live with some brightness variability to save cost. Modern LEDs are visibly lit even with 1 mA forward current so whether at 13.9 or 18 mA they will be quite bright.



                You could also reduce the variability by designing your resistive limiting circuit with more voltage overhead. Either use a higher voltage source (12 V maybe) and a larger resistor, or place 2 strings of 2 LEDs in parallel, so you have roughly 5 V overhead instead of just 1. The trade-off here is of course more power wasted in the resistors.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$




                In this case the datasheet shows a typical Vf of 2.1v, the spice model seems to be using a Vf of 2.134v.




                If your circuit works for $V_f$ of 2.1 V, but fails for 2.134 V, then you need to get a new circuit.



                The forward voltage will vary due to manufacturing variations and junction temperature. And the variation will be more than 35 mV over realistic operating conditions.



                Also, keep in mind that the datasheet value is for an ambient temperature of 25 C, while SPICE is probably (unless you've added an option to specify otherwise) simulating a junction temperature of 25 C. That means the datasheet value reflects a higher junction temperature than the SPICE model. And forward voltage does typically drop with increasing temperature so it's conceivable both models are correct.




                Assuming a 9v source if I use a 33.3333ohm resistor (or resistor combination) based on the 2.1Vf of the datasheet I get a simulation result of 13.9mA instead of the expected 18mA. ... I'm asking since if I'm wrong either the LEDs will be too dim, or they will blow out.




                If this application requires the brightness to be controlled so carefully that the difference between 13.9 and 18 mA makes a difference, you should use a constant current LED driver instead of a simple resistive current limiter.



                But in most applications, users won't notice the difference in brightness due to this kind of current change. So you just live with some brightness variability to save cost. Modern LEDs are visibly lit even with 1 mA forward current so whether at 13.9 or 18 mA they will be quite bright.



                You could also reduce the variability by designing your resistive limiting circuit with more voltage overhead. Either use a higher voltage source (12 V maybe) and a larger resistor, or place 2 strings of 2 LEDs in parallel, so you have roughly 5 V overhead instead of just 1. The trade-off here is of course more power wasted in the resistors.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 13 mins ago

























                answered 5 hours ago









                The PhotonThe Photon

                87.1k398202




                87.1k398202























                    4












                    $begingroup$

                    Always follow the datasheet. I strongly recommend looking up some of Mike Engelhardt's videos or attend one of his seminars (Arrow sponsors a lot of them). While you're not using LTSpice, Mike has a very deep understanding of Spice simulation, the good, the bad, and the ugly. The reality is most Spice models are made by people that don't really understand them (aka. interns) and can't be trusted a large percent of the time.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$












                    • $begingroup$
                      Notice the datasheet value is also only a "typical", not a maximum or minimum.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      @ThePhoton Didn't even look at the datasheet, I just know I've seen a lot of crappy Spice models over the years.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Matt Young
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      These days, SPICE models are more likely to be generated by specialized modeling consultants than by interns. The real problem isn't that the person making the model doesn't understand modeling, it's that they can't anticipate every use case that customers will try to apply the device to.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      @ThePhoton If that's the case, they're ripping off semiconductor companies en masse. Just last month I ran into a Zener model whose performance did not match the datasheet at all, and I was just using it in an active clamp circuit. How can that not be anticipated?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Matt Young
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      I'm sure there are bad SPICE models out there. More often, websites are just mixed up about what file is what. Like you ask for the model for a 9 V zener and they give you the model for a 6 V zener with a very similar part number.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      34 mins ago















                    4












                    $begingroup$

                    Always follow the datasheet. I strongly recommend looking up some of Mike Engelhardt's videos or attend one of his seminars (Arrow sponsors a lot of them). While you're not using LTSpice, Mike has a very deep understanding of Spice simulation, the good, the bad, and the ugly. The reality is most Spice models are made by people that don't really understand them (aka. interns) and can't be trusted a large percent of the time.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$












                    • $begingroup$
                      Notice the datasheet value is also only a "typical", not a maximum or minimum.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      @ThePhoton Didn't even look at the datasheet, I just know I've seen a lot of crappy Spice models over the years.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Matt Young
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      These days, SPICE models are more likely to be generated by specialized modeling consultants than by interns. The real problem isn't that the person making the model doesn't understand modeling, it's that they can't anticipate every use case that customers will try to apply the device to.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      @ThePhoton If that's the case, they're ripping off semiconductor companies en masse. Just last month I ran into a Zener model whose performance did not match the datasheet at all, and I was just using it in an active clamp circuit. How can that not be anticipated?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Matt Young
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      I'm sure there are bad SPICE models out there. More often, websites are just mixed up about what file is what. Like you ask for the model for a 9 V zener and they give you the model for a 6 V zener with a very similar part number.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      34 mins ago













                    4












                    4








                    4





                    $begingroup$

                    Always follow the datasheet. I strongly recommend looking up some of Mike Engelhardt's videos or attend one of his seminars (Arrow sponsors a lot of them). While you're not using LTSpice, Mike has a very deep understanding of Spice simulation, the good, the bad, and the ugly. The reality is most Spice models are made by people that don't really understand them (aka. interns) and can't be trusted a large percent of the time.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    Always follow the datasheet. I strongly recommend looking up some of Mike Engelhardt's videos or attend one of his seminars (Arrow sponsors a lot of them). While you're not using LTSpice, Mike has a very deep understanding of Spice simulation, the good, the bad, and the ugly. The reality is most Spice models are made by people that don't really understand them (aka. interns) and can't be trusted a large percent of the time.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 5 hours ago









                    Matt YoungMatt Young

                    12.4k42560




                    12.4k42560











                    • $begingroup$
                      Notice the datasheet value is also only a "typical", not a maximum or minimum.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      @ThePhoton Didn't even look at the datasheet, I just know I've seen a lot of crappy Spice models over the years.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Matt Young
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      These days, SPICE models are more likely to be generated by specialized modeling consultants than by interns. The real problem isn't that the person making the model doesn't understand modeling, it's that they can't anticipate every use case that customers will try to apply the device to.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      @ThePhoton If that's the case, they're ripping off semiconductor companies en masse. Just last month I ran into a Zener model whose performance did not match the datasheet at all, and I was just using it in an active clamp circuit. How can that not be anticipated?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Matt Young
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      I'm sure there are bad SPICE models out there. More often, websites are just mixed up about what file is what. Like you ask for the model for a 9 V zener and they give you the model for a 6 V zener with a very similar part number.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      34 mins ago
















                    • $begingroup$
                      Notice the datasheet value is also only a "typical", not a maximum or minimum.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      @ThePhoton Didn't even look at the datasheet, I just know I've seen a lot of crappy Spice models over the years.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Matt Young
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      These days, SPICE models are more likely to be generated by specialized modeling consultants than by interns. The real problem isn't that the person making the model doesn't understand modeling, it's that they can't anticipate every use case that customers will try to apply the device to.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      @ThePhoton If that's the case, they're ripping off semiconductor companies en masse. Just last month I ran into a Zener model whose performance did not match the datasheet at all, and I was just using it in an active clamp circuit. How can that not be anticipated?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Matt Young
                      5 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      I'm sure there are bad SPICE models out there. More often, websites are just mixed up about what file is what. Like you ask for the model for a 9 V zener and they give you the model for a 6 V zener with a very similar part number.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Photon
                      34 mins ago















                    $begingroup$
                    Notice the datasheet value is also only a "typical", not a maximum or minimum.
                    $endgroup$
                    – The Photon
                    5 hours ago




                    $begingroup$
                    Notice the datasheet value is also only a "typical", not a maximum or minimum.
                    $endgroup$
                    – The Photon
                    5 hours ago












                    $begingroup$
                    @ThePhoton Didn't even look at the datasheet, I just know I've seen a lot of crappy Spice models over the years.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt Young
                    5 hours ago




                    $begingroup$
                    @ThePhoton Didn't even look at the datasheet, I just know I've seen a lot of crappy Spice models over the years.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt Young
                    5 hours ago












                    $begingroup$
                    These days, SPICE models are more likely to be generated by specialized modeling consultants than by interns. The real problem isn't that the person making the model doesn't understand modeling, it's that they can't anticipate every use case that customers will try to apply the device to.
                    $endgroup$
                    – The Photon
                    5 hours ago




                    $begingroup$
                    These days, SPICE models are more likely to be generated by specialized modeling consultants than by interns. The real problem isn't that the person making the model doesn't understand modeling, it's that they can't anticipate every use case that customers will try to apply the device to.
                    $endgroup$
                    – The Photon
                    5 hours ago












                    $begingroup$
                    @ThePhoton If that's the case, they're ripping off semiconductor companies en masse. Just last month I ran into a Zener model whose performance did not match the datasheet at all, and I was just using it in an active clamp circuit. How can that not be anticipated?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt Young
                    5 hours ago




                    $begingroup$
                    @ThePhoton If that's the case, they're ripping off semiconductor companies en masse. Just last month I ran into a Zener model whose performance did not match the datasheet at all, and I was just using it in an active clamp circuit. How can that not be anticipated?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt Young
                    5 hours ago












                    $begingroup$
                    I'm sure there are bad SPICE models out there. More often, websites are just mixed up about what file is what. Like you ask for the model for a 9 V zener and they give you the model for a 6 V zener with a very similar part number.
                    $endgroup$
                    – The Photon
                    34 mins ago




                    $begingroup$
                    I'm sure there are bad SPICE models out there. More often, websites are just mixed up about what file is what. Like you ask for the model for a 9 V zener and they give you the model for a 6 V zener with a very similar part number.
                    $endgroup$
                    – The Photon
                    34 mins ago

















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