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RAW, Is the “Finesse” trait incompatible with unarmed attacks?


What is the fallout of unarmed strikes no longer being weapons?Monks, natural and unarmed attacks, and Feral Combat TrainingCan I Trip or Disarm with the extra attack provided by the Snap Kick feat?How much damage does a weaponless skeleton do?Could a Monk holding two weapons still allow for the bonus Unarmed action?Do Natural Attacks count as Unarmed?For a basic unarmed strike, is only the proficiency bonus included in the attack roll, or is the Strength modifier also added?Should my fighter really punch that werewolf?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








5












$begingroup$


Pathfinder draws a strict distinction between unarmed attacks and weapons. Does this distinction invalidate the benefits of the "Finesse" trait, when applied to unarmed attacks?




Almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282). However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so. p.278




This rule says that weapon traits can apply to unarmed attacks, but that only things which explicitly say they work with unarmed attacks can apply. Now, look at the text of the Finesse trait:




Finesse: You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage. p.282




So on one hand, we can apply the Finesse trait to unarmed attacks, but when we apply it, we find that its mechanical benefits apply only to melee weapons, and not to unarmed attacks.



So from my reading, this means that any additional rules which apply to the Finesse trait, would also apply to unarmed attacks. However, unarmed attacks would not be able to substitute Dexterity for Strength on attack rolls, because the Finesse trait explicitly says that only "melee weapons" gain this benefit, and not "unarmed attacks". Is this a correct reading, according to the rules as written?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Up you and not going to edit back since you changed it yourself but usually I prefer to ask questions positively to avoid yes/no answer confusions. In this case, I think asking if things are compatible may make things easier to parse.
    $endgroup$
    – Sdjz
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I was trying to make the title consistent with the body, in terms of what "yes" or "no" means. If you have a better phrasing, feel free to add it.
    $endgroup$
    – Strill
    8 hours ago

















5












$begingroup$


Pathfinder draws a strict distinction between unarmed attacks and weapons. Does this distinction invalidate the benefits of the "Finesse" trait, when applied to unarmed attacks?




Almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282). However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so. p.278




This rule says that weapon traits can apply to unarmed attacks, but that only things which explicitly say they work with unarmed attacks can apply. Now, look at the text of the Finesse trait:




Finesse: You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage. p.282




So on one hand, we can apply the Finesse trait to unarmed attacks, but when we apply it, we find that its mechanical benefits apply only to melee weapons, and not to unarmed attacks.



So from my reading, this means that any additional rules which apply to the Finesse trait, would also apply to unarmed attacks. However, unarmed attacks would not be able to substitute Dexterity for Strength on attack rolls, because the Finesse trait explicitly says that only "melee weapons" gain this benefit, and not "unarmed attacks". Is this a correct reading, according to the rules as written?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Up you and not going to edit back since you changed it yourself but usually I prefer to ask questions positively to avoid yes/no answer confusions. In this case, I think asking if things are compatible may make things easier to parse.
    $endgroup$
    – Sdjz
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I was trying to make the title consistent with the body, in terms of what "yes" or "no" means. If you have a better phrasing, feel free to add it.
    $endgroup$
    – Strill
    8 hours ago













5












5








5





$begingroup$


Pathfinder draws a strict distinction between unarmed attacks and weapons. Does this distinction invalidate the benefits of the "Finesse" trait, when applied to unarmed attacks?




Almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282). However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so. p.278




This rule says that weapon traits can apply to unarmed attacks, but that only things which explicitly say they work with unarmed attacks can apply. Now, look at the text of the Finesse trait:




Finesse: You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage. p.282




So on one hand, we can apply the Finesse trait to unarmed attacks, but when we apply it, we find that its mechanical benefits apply only to melee weapons, and not to unarmed attacks.



So from my reading, this means that any additional rules which apply to the Finesse trait, would also apply to unarmed attacks. However, unarmed attacks would not be able to substitute Dexterity for Strength on attack rolls, because the Finesse trait explicitly says that only "melee weapons" gain this benefit, and not "unarmed attacks". Is this a correct reading, according to the rules as written?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Pathfinder draws a strict distinction between unarmed attacks and weapons. Does this distinction invalidate the benefits of the "Finesse" trait, when applied to unarmed attacks?




Almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282). However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so. p.278




This rule says that weapon traits can apply to unarmed attacks, but that only things which explicitly say they work with unarmed attacks can apply. Now, look at the text of the Finesse trait:




Finesse: You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage. p.282




So on one hand, we can apply the Finesse trait to unarmed attacks, but when we apply it, we find that its mechanical benefits apply only to melee weapons, and not to unarmed attacks.



So from my reading, this means that any additional rules which apply to the Finesse trait, would also apply to unarmed attacks. However, unarmed attacks would not be able to substitute Dexterity for Strength on attack rolls, because the Finesse trait explicitly says that only "melee weapons" gain this benefit, and not "unarmed attacks". Is this a correct reading, according to the rules as written?







unarmed-combat pathfinder-2e






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago









V2Blast

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34.3k5 gold badges123 silver badges214 bronze badges










asked 8 hours ago









StrillStrill

5,6143 gold badges34 silver badges60 bronze badges




5,6143 gold badges34 silver badges60 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    Up you and not going to edit back since you changed it yourself but usually I prefer to ask questions positively to avoid yes/no answer confusions. In this case, I think asking if things are compatible may make things easier to parse.
    $endgroup$
    – Sdjz
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I was trying to make the title consistent with the body, in terms of what "yes" or "no" means. If you have a better phrasing, feel free to add it.
    $endgroup$
    – Strill
    8 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Up you and not going to edit back since you changed it yourself but usually I prefer to ask questions positively to avoid yes/no answer confusions. In this case, I think asking if things are compatible may make things easier to parse.
    $endgroup$
    – Sdjz
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I was trying to make the title consistent with the body, in terms of what "yes" or "no" means. If you have a better phrasing, feel free to add it.
    $endgroup$
    – Strill
    8 hours ago















$begingroup$
Up you and not going to edit back since you changed it yourself but usually I prefer to ask questions positively to avoid yes/no answer confusions. In this case, I think asking if things are compatible may make things easier to parse.
$endgroup$
– Sdjz
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Up you and not going to edit back since you changed it yourself but usually I prefer to ask questions positively to avoid yes/no answer confusions. In this case, I think asking if things are compatible may make things easier to parse.
$endgroup$
– Sdjz
8 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
I was trying to make the title consistent with the body, in terms of what "yes" or "no" means. If you have a better phrasing, feel free to add it.
$endgroup$
– Strill
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
I was trying to make the title consistent with the body, in terms of what "yes" or "no" means. If you have a better phrasing, feel free to add it.
$endgroup$
– Strill
8 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















9














$begingroup$

“Finesse” trait is compatible with unarmed attacks



Page 286 on the manual, under "weapon traits" says:




Any trait that refers to a “weapon” can also apply to an unarmed
attack that has that trait.




And unarmed attacks are listed as having the finesse trait in the table in the same page.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Well that's definitely more direct. Still going to leave my answer for context
    $endgroup$
    – Ifusaso
    7 hours ago


















1














$begingroup$

By the strictest of RAW, you might be right. Numerous places in the PHB refer to "weapon and unarmed strikes" but Finesse lacks that language...



More likely, this was an oversight based on the language in your quote being perceived as having covered the issue already.



Unarmed strikes can benefit from any applicable weapon trait.



Specifically, the line you quote is




Unarmed attacks ... might have weapon traits(page 282).




The "effects and abilities" is intended to cover other things, such as class abilities and Feats. For instance, the 10th level Cleric Feat Castigating Weapon explicitly works with unarmed strikes (as do most Barbarian abilities), but the Fighter ability Power Attack requires you to be wielding a weapon because it does not include an unarmed option.






share|improve this answer









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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
    2






    active

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    active

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    active

    oldest

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    9














    $begingroup$

    “Finesse” trait is compatible with unarmed attacks



    Page 286 on the manual, under "weapon traits" says:




    Any trait that refers to a “weapon” can also apply to an unarmed
    attack that has that trait.




    And unarmed attacks are listed as having the finesse trait in the table in the same page.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      Well that's definitely more direct. Still going to leave my answer for context
      $endgroup$
      – Ifusaso
      7 hours ago















    9














    $begingroup$

    “Finesse” trait is compatible with unarmed attacks



    Page 286 on the manual, under "weapon traits" says:




    Any trait that refers to a “weapon” can also apply to an unarmed
    attack that has that trait.




    And unarmed attacks are listed as having the finesse trait in the table in the same page.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      Well that's definitely more direct. Still going to leave my answer for context
      $endgroup$
      – Ifusaso
      7 hours ago













    9














    9










    9







    $begingroup$

    “Finesse” trait is compatible with unarmed attacks



    Page 286 on the manual, under "weapon traits" says:




    Any trait that refers to a “weapon” can also apply to an unarmed
    attack that has that trait.




    And unarmed attacks are listed as having the finesse trait in the table in the same page.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    “Finesse” trait is compatible with unarmed attacks



    Page 286 on the manual, under "weapon traits" says:




    Any trait that refers to a “weapon” can also apply to an unarmed
    attack that has that trait.




    And unarmed attacks are listed as having the finesse trait in the table in the same page.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 7 hours ago









    MACNMACN

    5,2921 gold badge18 silver badges33 bronze badges




    5,2921 gold badge18 silver badges33 bronze badges














    • $begingroup$
      Well that's definitely more direct. Still going to leave my answer for context
      $endgroup$
      – Ifusaso
      7 hours ago
















    • $begingroup$
      Well that's definitely more direct. Still going to leave my answer for context
      $endgroup$
      – Ifusaso
      7 hours ago















    $begingroup$
    Well that's definitely more direct. Still going to leave my answer for context
    $endgroup$
    – Ifusaso
    7 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Well that's definitely more direct. Still going to leave my answer for context
    $endgroup$
    – Ifusaso
    7 hours ago













    1














    $begingroup$

    By the strictest of RAW, you might be right. Numerous places in the PHB refer to "weapon and unarmed strikes" but Finesse lacks that language...



    More likely, this was an oversight based on the language in your quote being perceived as having covered the issue already.



    Unarmed strikes can benefit from any applicable weapon trait.



    Specifically, the line you quote is




    Unarmed attacks ... might have weapon traits(page 282).




    The "effects and abilities" is intended to cover other things, such as class abilities and Feats. For instance, the 10th level Cleric Feat Castigating Weapon explicitly works with unarmed strikes (as do most Barbarian abilities), but the Fighter ability Power Attack requires you to be wielding a weapon because it does not include an unarmed option.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



















      1














      $begingroup$

      By the strictest of RAW, you might be right. Numerous places in the PHB refer to "weapon and unarmed strikes" but Finesse lacks that language...



      More likely, this was an oversight based on the language in your quote being perceived as having covered the issue already.



      Unarmed strikes can benefit from any applicable weapon trait.



      Specifically, the line you quote is




      Unarmed attacks ... might have weapon traits(page 282).




      The "effects and abilities" is intended to cover other things, such as class abilities and Feats. For instance, the 10th level Cleric Feat Castigating Weapon explicitly works with unarmed strikes (as do most Barbarian abilities), but the Fighter ability Power Attack requires you to be wielding a weapon because it does not include an unarmed option.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        1














        1










        1







        $begingroup$

        By the strictest of RAW, you might be right. Numerous places in the PHB refer to "weapon and unarmed strikes" but Finesse lacks that language...



        More likely, this was an oversight based on the language in your quote being perceived as having covered the issue already.



        Unarmed strikes can benefit from any applicable weapon trait.



        Specifically, the line you quote is




        Unarmed attacks ... might have weapon traits(page 282).




        The "effects and abilities" is intended to cover other things, such as class abilities and Feats. For instance, the 10th level Cleric Feat Castigating Weapon explicitly works with unarmed strikes (as do most Barbarian abilities), but the Fighter ability Power Attack requires you to be wielding a weapon because it does not include an unarmed option.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        By the strictest of RAW, you might be right. Numerous places in the PHB refer to "weapon and unarmed strikes" but Finesse lacks that language...



        More likely, this was an oversight based on the language in your quote being perceived as having covered the issue already.



        Unarmed strikes can benefit from any applicable weapon trait.



        Specifically, the line you quote is




        Unarmed attacks ... might have weapon traits(page 282).




        The "effects and abilities" is intended to cover other things, such as class abilities and Feats. For instance, the 10th level Cleric Feat Castigating Weapon explicitly works with unarmed strikes (as do most Barbarian abilities), but the Fighter ability Power Attack requires you to be wielding a weapon because it does not include an unarmed option.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 7 hours ago









        IfusasoIfusaso

        13.3k25 silver badges77 bronze badges




        13.3k25 silver badges77 bronze badges






























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