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Is Sanskrit really the mother of all languages?


Do atonal languages have a tonal ancestor?Wanderwort origins and the Indus Valley Civilization?Could the proto-human language still play a role in the interlingual communication?Advice on voiced and unvoiced in sanskrit soundsRelationship between Japanese and Austronesian languagesWhat is the oldest language that we know enough about to construct a plausible sentence in it?Isn't it obvious that linguists must specialize in language contact to study the history of English?How can all languages be considered equally “good” at expressing ideas when language had to evolve from something more primitive?Does Jespersen's Cycle apply to languages without negative concord?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








2















The Hindus believe that "Sanskrit is the mother of all Languages".



It is a fact that Sanskrit has enriched most Indian Languages including the Dravidian Languages such as Telugu as Latin enriched some languages like English



Since Hinduism is believed by some people to be the oldest recorded religion in the world and Sanskrit was the Language of the people Those days, Do Linguists agree that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages or do they consider it a myth?



Do you think that there must be a common language for our

ancestors who might have spoken a language though it might not be Sanskrit?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Jagatha V L Narasimharao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 3





    It is not, it is just an older one that has much influence on contemporary and dead languages, but it has comparatively little/no influence on, say, afro-asiatic / berber / japonic languages

    – Carly
    8 hours ago







  • 6





    Hinduism is not the "oldest recorded religion in the world". The ancient Sumerians and Egyptians had "recorded" religious texts long before anything was "recorded" in Sanskrit. But this has nothing to do with linguistics. This is a bogus question and I have voted to close it.

    – fdb
    7 hours ago






  • 5





    Don't close it. This is such a common claim on the internet that explaining why it's bogus would be a public service.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    Sanskrit is the mother of all North Indian languages, just as Latin is the mother of all Romance languages. But Sanskrit is not related to Dravidian, except where Dravidian languages have borrowed Sanskrit words -- and where Sanskrit borrowed consonants series from Dravidian. And Latin is not related to Basque, though Basque has borrowed many Latin words. That's all. The indo-European language family contains Latin and Sanskrit and their descendants, but not all the languages of the world. Latin and Sanskrit are cousins, though -- neither is "mother" to the other one.

    – jlawler
    6 hours ago






  • 4





    I would also suggest keeping this open. This is a widespread claim, even promoted by some "linguists", and it's worth debunking.

    – Draconis
    6 hours ago

















2















The Hindus believe that "Sanskrit is the mother of all Languages".



It is a fact that Sanskrit has enriched most Indian Languages including the Dravidian Languages such as Telugu as Latin enriched some languages like English



Since Hinduism is believed by some people to be the oldest recorded religion in the world and Sanskrit was the Language of the people Those days, Do Linguists agree that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages or do they consider it a myth?



Do you think that there must be a common language for our

ancestors who might have spoken a language though it might not be Sanskrit?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Jagatha V L Narasimharao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 3





    It is not, it is just an older one that has much influence on contemporary and dead languages, but it has comparatively little/no influence on, say, afro-asiatic / berber / japonic languages

    – Carly
    8 hours ago







  • 6





    Hinduism is not the "oldest recorded religion in the world". The ancient Sumerians and Egyptians had "recorded" religious texts long before anything was "recorded" in Sanskrit. But this has nothing to do with linguistics. This is a bogus question and I have voted to close it.

    – fdb
    7 hours ago






  • 5





    Don't close it. This is such a common claim on the internet that explaining why it's bogus would be a public service.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    Sanskrit is the mother of all North Indian languages, just as Latin is the mother of all Romance languages. But Sanskrit is not related to Dravidian, except where Dravidian languages have borrowed Sanskrit words -- and where Sanskrit borrowed consonants series from Dravidian. And Latin is not related to Basque, though Basque has borrowed many Latin words. That's all. The indo-European language family contains Latin and Sanskrit and their descendants, but not all the languages of the world. Latin and Sanskrit are cousins, though -- neither is "mother" to the other one.

    – jlawler
    6 hours ago






  • 4





    I would also suggest keeping this open. This is a widespread claim, even promoted by some "linguists", and it's worth debunking.

    – Draconis
    6 hours ago













2












2








2








The Hindus believe that "Sanskrit is the mother of all Languages".



It is a fact that Sanskrit has enriched most Indian Languages including the Dravidian Languages such as Telugu as Latin enriched some languages like English



Since Hinduism is believed by some people to be the oldest recorded religion in the world and Sanskrit was the Language of the people Those days, Do Linguists agree that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages or do they consider it a myth?



Do you think that there must be a common language for our

ancestors who might have spoken a language though it might not be Sanskrit?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Jagatha V L Narasimharao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











The Hindus believe that "Sanskrit is the mother of all Languages".



It is a fact that Sanskrit has enriched most Indian Languages including the Dravidian Languages such as Telugu as Latin enriched some languages like English



Since Hinduism is believed by some people to be the oldest recorded religion in the world and Sanskrit was the Language of the people Those days, Do Linguists agree that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages or do they consider it a myth?



Do you think that there must be a common language for our

ancestors who might have spoken a language though it might not be Sanskrit?







historical-linguistics sanskrit origin-of-language






share|improve this question









New contributor



Jagatha V L Narasimharao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question









New contributor



Jagatha V L Narasimharao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 7 hours ago







Jagatha V L Narasimharao













New contributor



Jagatha V L Narasimharao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked 8 hours ago









Jagatha V L NarasimharaoJagatha V L Narasimharao

2011 silver badge9 bronze badges




2011 silver badge9 bronze badges




New contributor



Jagatha V L Narasimharao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




Jagatha V L Narasimharao is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • 3





    It is not, it is just an older one that has much influence on contemporary and dead languages, but it has comparatively little/no influence on, say, afro-asiatic / berber / japonic languages

    – Carly
    8 hours ago







  • 6





    Hinduism is not the "oldest recorded religion in the world". The ancient Sumerians and Egyptians had "recorded" religious texts long before anything was "recorded" in Sanskrit. But this has nothing to do with linguistics. This is a bogus question and I have voted to close it.

    – fdb
    7 hours ago






  • 5





    Don't close it. This is such a common claim on the internet that explaining why it's bogus would be a public service.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    Sanskrit is the mother of all North Indian languages, just as Latin is the mother of all Romance languages. But Sanskrit is not related to Dravidian, except where Dravidian languages have borrowed Sanskrit words -- and where Sanskrit borrowed consonants series from Dravidian. And Latin is not related to Basque, though Basque has borrowed many Latin words. That's all. The indo-European language family contains Latin and Sanskrit and their descendants, but not all the languages of the world. Latin and Sanskrit are cousins, though -- neither is "mother" to the other one.

    – jlawler
    6 hours ago






  • 4





    I would also suggest keeping this open. This is a widespread claim, even promoted by some "linguists", and it's worth debunking.

    – Draconis
    6 hours ago












  • 3





    It is not, it is just an older one that has much influence on contemporary and dead languages, but it has comparatively little/no influence on, say, afro-asiatic / berber / japonic languages

    – Carly
    8 hours ago







  • 6





    Hinduism is not the "oldest recorded religion in the world". The ancient Sumerians and Egyptians had "recorded" religious texts long before anything was "recorded" in Sanskrit. But this has nothing to do with linguistics. This is a bogus question and I have voted to close it.

    – fdb
    7 hours ago






  • 5





    Don't close it. This is such a common claim on the internet that explaining why it's bogus would be a public service.

    – Nardog
    7 hours ago






  • 4





    Sanskrit is the mother of all North Indian languages, just as Latin is the mother of all Romance languages. But Sanskrit is not related to Dravidian, except where Dravidian languages have borrowed Sanskrit words -- and where Sanskrit borrowed consonants series from Dravidian. And Latin is not related to Basque, though Basque has borrowed many Latin words. That's all. The indo-European language family contains Latin and Sanskrit and their descendants, but not all the languages of the world. Latin and Sanskrit are cousins, though -- neither is "mother" to the other one.

    – jlawler
    6 hours ago






  • 4





    I would also suggest keeping this open. This is a widespread claim, even promoted by some "linguists", and it's worth debunking.

    – Draconis
    6 hours ago







3




3





It is not, it is just an older one that has much influence on contemporary and dead languages, but it has comparatively little/no influence on, say, afro-asiatic / berber / japonic languages

– Carly
8 hours ago






It is not, it is just an older one that has much influence on contemporary and dead languages, but it has comparatively little/no influence on, say, afro-asiatic / berber / japonic languages

– Carly
8 hours ago





6




6





Hinduism is not the "oldest recorded religion in the world". The ancient Sumerians and Egyptians had "recorded" religious texts long before anything was "recorded" in Sanskrit. But this has nothing to do with linguistics. This is a bogus question and I have voted to close it.

– fdb
7 hours ago





Hinduism is not the "oldest recorded religion in the world". The ancient Sumerians and Egyptians had "recorded" religious texts long before anything was "recorded" in Sanskrit. But this has nothing to do with linguistics. This is a bogus question and I have voted to close it.

– fdb
7 hours ago




5




5





Don't close it. This is such a common claim on the internet that explaining why it's bogus would be a public service.

– Nardog
7 hours ago





Don't close it. This is such a common claim on the internet that explaining why it's bogus would be a public service.

– Nardog
7 hours ago




4




4





Sanskrit is the mother of all North Indian languages, just as Latin is the mother of all Romance languages. But Sanskrit is not related to Dravidian, except where Dravidian languages have borrowed Sanskrit words -- and where Sanskrit borrowed consonants series from Dravidian. And Latin is not related to Basque, though Basque has borrowed many Latin words. That's all. The indo-European language family contains Latin and Sanskrit and their descendants, but not all the languages of the world. Latin and Sanskrit are cousins, though -- neither is "mother" to the other one.

– jlawler
6 hours ago





Sanskrit is the mother of all North Indian languages, just as Latin is the mother of all Romance languages. But Sanskrit is not related to Dravidian, except where Dravidian languages have borrowed Sanskrit words -- and where Sanskrit borrowed consonants series from Dravidian. And Latin is not related to Basque, though Basque has borrowed many Latin words. That's all. The indo-European language family contains Latin and Sanskrit and their descendants, but not all the languages of the world. Latin and Sanskrit are cousins, though -- neither is "mother" to the other one.

– jlawler
6 hours ago




4




4





I would also suggest keeping this open. This is a widespread claim, even promoted by some "linguists", and it's worth debunking.

– Draconis
6 hours ago





I would also suggest keeping this open. This is a widespread claim, even promoted by some "linguists", and it's worth debunking.

– Draconis
6 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















7
















No, it is not.



First and foremost, there are many languages recorded long before the advent of Sanskrit, and many religions recorded long before the advent of Hinduism. The oldest surviving texts in Ancient Egyptian are from c. 3000 BCE, while the majority of the Rigveda (the oldest known Sanskrit text) was probably composed between 1500 and 1200 BCE. So that's a difference of a millennium and a half!



Sanskrit is an Indo-European (sometimes called Indogermanic) language, which makes it a relative of English, Spanish, Russian, and many others. But Sanskrit isn't the ancestor of those languages, any more than the composers of the Vedas were the ancestors of all modern Europeans. Rather, Sanskrit and those other languages all share a common ancestor, called "Proto-Indo-European" (or "Proto-Indogermanic"), which was spoken somewhere between 4500 and 2500 BCE.



There are no surviving records of Proto-Indo-European (PIE for short), but scholars have been able to reconstruct it by comparing the languages that are attested, and working backward from there. There are some striking similarities, which make it clear that the languages are related. But:



  • Sanskrit preserves some features that disappeared in other branches: for example, the injunctive is well-attested in Vedic Sanskrit, but is uncommon in Homer's Greek, and disappears entirely by Plato's time.

  • And other branches preserve some features which have disappeared in Sanskrit: Hittite retains a phoneme that disappeared entirely in Sanskrit (but left plenty of traces showing that it must once have existed).

There are dozens and dozens more correspondences like these, where features disappeared in one branch but survived in another, or were innovated in one branch but not in another, and so on. So while it's clear that Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Hittite, and so on are related, it's also clear that none is "mother" to the others: they're more like "siblings" or "cousins", with a common ancestor.




Do you think that there must be a common language for our ancestors[?]




Now this question is harder to answer.



The techniques I mentioned above, called the "comparative method", are really useful for reconstructing languages that must once have existed but aren't directly attested. But this method can only go back so far. Past a certain point, the comparative method just can't say anything particularly meaningful.



So while we know that there was an ancestor to all Indo-European languages, and an ancestor to all Afro-Asiatic languages ("Proto-Afro-Asiatic"), and an ancestor to all Sino-Tibetan languages ("Proto-Sino-Tibetan")…we can't really say anything definite about what came before those. They might all descend from an ancient sort of "Proto-World", or they might have all come about independently. There's just not enough evidence to say one way or the other.






share|improve this answer

























  • for those keep score at home: "proto-" means here hypothesized. we do not have kindles or youtube channels from 5000 BC to "directly" "verify" the extrapolation (cf: how to pronounce latin). it is a "reasonable" "assumption" of the precursor to the INDO-EUROPEAN tongues

    – Carly
    4 hours ago











  • @Carly Why the scarequotes? It's true, we have no way to directly verify our reconstructions, and they're reasonably well-founded assumptions.

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago












  • That's not what "proto-" means though, even though it's definitely true we don't have direct evidence (written material). "Proto-" as a prefix comes from Greek and means "first" as well as being used to refer to "original" or "ancestral". It simply refers to the fact that we assume these languages to have the "first of their kind", as in, for instance, the first Indo-European language, all the others of which are derived from. If we had direct attestation, well, we'd probably use its own name, and not "Proto-Something", sure. It's just not what the "proto-" refers to.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • It's also not automatically true that we can't verify our theories about protolanguages (I don't think this was claimed, but I just thought it was worth noting). Actual Proto-Indo-European is extremely unlikely to ever be attested, but for example, we suddenly found ourselves able to read Hittite and to suddenly verify some hypotheses about Indo-European that we had made. I think this shows that there is no need for scarequotes because in this way, comparative linguistics is or can potentially be an experimental science, although it's rare to find precious texts that verify our theories.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • @LjL Agreed. I have also seen "proto-" used specifically for hypothetical reconstructions, and "common" used instead when talking about the actual language—as in, nobody ever spoke Proto-Indo-European, they spoke Common Indo-European, and Proto-Indo-European is our model of that. It doesn't seem like a very useful distinction, though.

    – Draconis
    2 hours ago


















3
















Sanskrit is not the mother of all languages. Sanskrit is not even the mother of the modern Indo-Aryan languages of the Northern India. Neither it is their father or grandfather. In fact, no language is a direct descendant of Sanskrit.



Saying that Sanskrit to the modern Indo-Aryan languages is the same as Latin to the modern Romance languages is absolutely wrong. The Romance languages are direct descendants of Latin, but the modern Indo-Aryan languages are not direct descendants of Sanskrit. The best European analogy is the role Ancient Greek played for the modern European languages: Ancient Greek affected them all, filled them with lots of words and syntactic structures, but none of those languages is a direct descendant of Ancient Greek, naturally with the exception of modern Greek.



If to continue the family analogy, to the modern Indo-Aryan languages Sanskrit is a cousin grandfather who was their teacher, their guru. The Indo-Aryan languages descend from grandfather's siblings, but grandfather himself had no children.



Speaking more linguistically, there are actually two languages called Sansktit: the Vedic Sanskrit aka the Vedic language (ca. 1500 to 500 BCE), and Sanskrit proper aka Classical Sanskrit (ca. 200 CE to 1300 CE), the latter being a refined and artistic, highly elaborate version of the former. The Vedic language was once a vernacular, but since the texts in it were holy and highly revered, the language was later standardized and it underwent polishing by Indian sages and philosophers giving rise to Sanskrit whose name can be translated as "well prepared, pure and perfect, polished". But apart from Sanskrit proper, the Vedic language gave rise to its sister languages, not so refined, not so polished, but which were really vernacular languages in the times when Sanskrit bekame the language of educated philosophers, brahmanas, and poets. Those sister languages are called Prakrits, "natural, original, unpolished", the main ones being Maharashtri, Gandhari, Shauraseni, and Magadhi. Pali can also be considered a Prakrit, although later they did polish it very much. The Prakrits are the Middle Indo-Aryan languages, it is from them that the Modern Indo-Aryan languages developed.






share|improve this answer




















  • 2





    <s>(Don't forget Paisācī!)</s>

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago






  • 3





    I think much of this is true for languages derived from Latin, too, in the sense that they are derived from Vulgar Latin, which was likely quite different from Classical Latin even during classical times. I'd say there is a close parallel between "Classical" and "Sanskrit" meaning literary and refined on one hand, and "Vulgar" and "Prakrit" meaning natural vernaculars on the other.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago













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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2






active

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active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









7
















No, it is not.



First and foremost, there are many languages recorded long before the advent of Sanskrit, and many religions recorded long before the advent of Hinduism. The oldest surviving texts in Ancient Egyptian are from c. 3000 BCE, while the majority of the Rigveda (the oldest known Sanskrit text) was probably composed between 1500 and 1200 BCE. So that's a difference of a millennium and a half!



Sanskrit is an Indo-European (sometimes called Indogermanic) language, which makes it a relative of English, Spanish, Russian, and many others. But Sanskrit isn't the ancestor of those languages, any more than the composers of the Vedas were the ancestors of all modern Europeans. Rather, Sanskrit and those other languages all share a common ancestor, called "Proto-Indo-European" (or "Proto-Indogermanic"), which was spoken somewhere between 4500 and 2500 BCE.



There are no surviving records of Proto-Indo-European (PIE for short), but scholars have been able to reconstruct it by comparing the languages that are attested, and working backward from there. There are some striking similarities, which make it clear that the languages are related. But:



  • Sanskrit preserves some features that disappeared in other branches: for example, the injunctive is well-attested in Vedic Sanskrit, but is uncommon in Homer's Greek, and disappears entirely by Plato's time.

  • And other branches preserve some features which have disappeared in Sanskrit: Hittite retains a phoneme that disappeared entirely in Sanskrit (but left plenty of traces showing that it must once have existed).

There are dozens and dozens more correspondences like these, where features disappeared in one branch but survived in another, or were innovated in one branch but not in another, and so on. So while it's clear that Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Hittite, and so on are related, it's also clear that none is "mother" to the others: they're more like "siblings" or "cousins", with a common ancestor.




Do you think that there must be a common language for our ancestors[?]




Now this question is harder to answer.



The techniques I mentioned above, called the "comparative method", are really useful for reconstructing languages that must once have existed but aren't directly attested. But this method can only go back so far. Past a certain point, the comparative method just can't say anything particularly meaningful.



So while we know that there was an ancestor to all Indo-European languages, and an ancestor to all Afro-Asiatic languages ("Proto-Afro-Asiatic"), and an ancestor to all Sino-Tibetan languages ("Proto-Sino-Tibetan")…we can't really say anything definite about what came before those. They might all descend from an ancient sort of "Proto-World", or they might have all come about independently. There's just not enough evidence to say one way or the other.






share|improve this answer

























  • for those keep score at home: "proto-" means here hypothesized. we do not have kindles or youtube channels from 5000 BC to "directly" "verify" the extrapolation (cf: how to pronounce latin). it is a "reasonable" "assumption" of the precursor to the INDO-EUROPEAN tongues

    – Carly
    4 hours ago











  • @Carly Why the scarequotes? It's true, we have no way to directly verify our reconstructions, and they're reasonably well-founded assumptions.

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago












  • That's not what "proto-" means though, even though it's definitely true we don't have direct evidence (written material). "Proto-" as a prefix comes from Greek and means "first" as well as being used to refer to "original" or "ancestral". It simply refers to the fact that we assume these languages to have the "first of their kind", as in, for instance, the first Indo-European language, all the others of which are derived from. If we had direct attestation, well, we'd probably use its own name, and not "Proto-Something", sure. It's just not what the "proto-" refers to.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • It's also not automatically true that we can't verify our theories about protolanguages (I don't think this was claimed, but I just thought it was worth noting). Actual Proto-Indo-European is extremely unlikely to ever be attested, but for example, we suddenly found ourselves able to read Hittite and to suddenly verify some hypotheses about Indo-European that we had made. I think this shows that there is no need for scarequotes because in this way, comparative linguistics is or can potentially be an experimental science, although it's rare to find precious texts that verify our theories.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • @LjL Agreed. I have also seen "proto-" used specifically for hypothetical reconstructions, and "common" used instead when talking about the actual language—as in, nobody ever spoke Proto-Indo-European, they spoke Common Indo-European, and Proto-Indo-European is our model of that. It doesn't seem like a very useful distinction, though.

    – Draconis
    2 hours ago















7
















No, it is not.



First and foremost, there are many languages recorded long before the advent of Sanskrit, and many religions recorded long before the advent of Hinduism. The oldest surviving texts in Ancient Egyptian are from c. 3000 BCE, while the majority of the Rigveda (the oldest known Sanskrit text) was probably composed between 1500 and 1200 BCE. So that's a difference of a millennium and a half!



Sanskrit is an Indo-European (sometimes called Indogermanic) language, which makes it a relative of English, Spanish, Russian, and many others. But Sanskrit isn't the ancestor of those languages, any more than the composers of the Vedas were the ancestors of all modern Europeans. Rather, Sanskrit and those other languages all share a common ancestor, called "Proto-Indo-European" (or "Proto-Indogermanic"), which was spoken somewhere between 4500 and 2500 BCE.



There are no surviving records of Proto-Indo-European (PIE for short), but scholars have been able to reconstruct it by comparing the languages that are attested, and working backward from there. There are some striking similarities, which make it clear that the languages are related. But:



  • Sanskrit preserves some features that disappeared in other branches: for example, the injunctive is well-attested in Vedic Sanskrit, but is uncommon in Homer's Greek, and disappears entirely by Plato's time.

  • And other branches preserve some features which have disappeared in Sanskrit: Hittite retains a phoneme that disappeared entirely in Sanskrit (but left plenty of traces showing that it must once have existed).

There are dozens and dozens more correspondences like these, where features disappeared in one branch but survived in another, or were innovated in one branch but not in another, and so on. So while it's clear that Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Hittite, and so on are related, it's also clear that none is "mother" to the others: they're more like "siblings" or "cousins", with a common ancestor.




Do you think that there must be a common language for our ancestors[?]




Now this question is harder to answer.



The techniques I mentioned above, called the "comparative method", are really useful for reconstructing languages that must once have existed but aren't directly attested. But this method can only go back so far. Past a certain point, the comparative method just can't say anything particularly meaningful.



So while we know that there was an ancestor to all Indo-European languages, and an ancestor to all Afro-Asiatic languages ("Proto-Afro-Asiatic"), and an ancestor to all Sino-Tibetan languages ("Proto-Sino-Tibetan")…we can't really say anything definite about what came before those. They might all descend from an ancient sort of "Proto-World", or they might have all come about independently. There's just not enough evidence to say one way or the other.






share|improve this answer

























  • for those keep score at home: "proto-" means here hypothesized. we do not have kindles or youtube channels from 5000 BC to "directly" "verify" the extrapolation (cf: how to pronounce latin). it is a "reasonable" "assumption" of the precursor to the INDO-EUROPEAN tongues

    – Carly
    4 hours ago











  • @Carly Why the scarequotes? It's true, we have no way to directly verify our reconstructions, and they're reasonably well-founded assumptions.

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago












  • That's not what "proto-" means though, even though it's definitely true we don't have direct evidence (written material). "Proto-" as a prefix comes from Greek and means "first" as well as being used to refer to "original" or "ancestral". It simply refers to the fact that we assume these languages to have the "first of their kind", as in, for instance, the first Indo-European language, all the others of which are derived from. If we had direct attestation, well, we'd probably use its own name, and not "Proto-Something", sure. It's just not what the "proto-" refers to.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • It's also not automatically true that we can't verify our theories about protolanguages (I don't think this was claimed, but I just thought it was worth noting). Actual Proto-Indo-European is extremely unlikely to ever be attested, but for example, we suddenly found ourselves able to read Hittite and to suddenly verify some hypotheses about Indo-European that we had made. I think this shows that there is no need for scarequotes because in this way, comparative linguistics is or can potentially be an experimental science, although it's rare to find precious texts that verify our theories.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • @LjL Agreed. I have also seen "proto-" used specifically for hypothetical reconstructions, and "common" used instead when talking about the actual language—as in, nobody ever spoke Proto-Indo-European, they spoke Common Indo-European, and Proto-Indo-European is our model of that. It doesn't seem like a very useful distinction, though.

    – Draconis
    2 hours ago













7














7










7









No, it is not.



First and foremost, there are many languages recorded long before the advent of Sanskrit, and many religions recorded long before the advent of Hinduism. The oldest surviving texts in Ancient Egyptian are from c. 3000 BCE, while the majority of the Rigveda (the oldest known Sanskrit text) was probably composed between 1500 and 1200 BCE. So that's a difference of a millennium and a half!



Sanskrit is an Indo-European (sometimes called Indogermanic) language, which makes it a relative of English, Spanish, Russian, and many others. But Sanskrit isn't the ancestor of those languages, any more than the composers of the Vedas were the ancestors of all modern Europeans. Rather, Sanskrit and those other languages all share a common ancestor, called "Proto-Indo-European" (or "Proto-Indogermanic"), which was spoken somewhere between 4500 and 2500 BCE.



There are no surviving records of Proto-Indo-European (PIE for short), but scholars have been able to reconstruct it by comparing the languages that are attested, and working backward from there. There are some striking similarities, which make it clear that the languages are related. But:



  • Sanskrit preserves some features that disappeared in other branches: for example, the injunctive is well-attested in Vedic Sanskrit, but is uncommon in Homer's Greek, and disappears entirely by Plato's time.

  • And other branches preserve some features which have disappeared in Sanskrit: Hittite retains a phoneme that disappeared entirely in Sanskrit (but left plenty of traces showing that it must once have existed).

There are dozens and dozens more correspondences like these, where features disappeared in one branch but survived in another, or were innovated in one branch but not in another, and so on. So while it's clear that Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Hittite, and so on are related, it's also clear that none is "mother" to the others: they're more like "siblings" or "cousins", with a common ancestor.




Do you think that there must be a common language for our ancestors[?]




Now this question is harder to answer.



The techniques I mentioned above, called the "comparative method", are really useful for reconstructing languages that must once have existed but aren't directly attested. But this method can only go back so far. Past a certain point, the comparative method just can't say anything particularly meaningful.



So while we know that there was an ancestor to all Indo-European languages, and an ancestor to all Afro-Asiatic languages ("Proto-Afro-Asiatic"), and an ancestor to all Sino-Tibetan languages ("Proto-Sino-Tibetan")…we can't really say anything definite about what came before those. They might all descend from an ancient sort of "Proto-World", or they might have all come about independently. There's just not enough evidence to say one way or the other.






share|improve this answer













No, it is not.



First and foremost, there are many languages recorded long before the advent of Sanskrit, and many religions recorded long before the advent of Hinduism. The oldest surviving texts in Ancient Egyptian are from c. 3000 BCE, while the majority of the Rigveda (the oldest known Sanskrit text) was probably composed between 1500 and 1200 BCE. So that's a difference of a millennium and a half!



Sanskrit is an Indo-European (sometimes called Indogermanic) language, which makes it a relative of English, Spanish, Russian, and many others. But Sanskrit isn't the ancestor of those languages, any more than the composers of the Vedas were the ancestors of all modern Europeans. Rather, Sanskrit and those other languages all share a common ancestor, called "Proto-Indo-European" (or "Proto-Indogermanic"), which was spoken somewhere between 4500 and 2500 BCE.



There are no surviving records of Proto-Indo-European (PIE for short), but scholars have been able to reconstruct it by comparing the languages that are attested, and working backward from there. There are some striking similarities, which make it clear that the languages are related. But:



  • Sanskrit preserves some features that disappeared in other branches: for example, the injunctive is well-attested in Vedic Sanskrit, but is uncommon in Homer's Greek, and disappears entirely by Plato's time.

  • And other branches preserve some features which have disappeared in Sanskrit: Hittite retains a phoneme that disappeared entirely in Sanskrit (but left plenty of traces showing that it must once have existed).

There are dozens and dozens more correspondences like these, where features disappeared in one branch but survived in another, or were innovated in one branch but not in another, and so on. So while it's clear that Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Hittite, and so on are related, it's also clear that none is "mother" to the others: they're more like "siblings" or "cousins", with a common ancestor.




Do you think that there must be a common language for our ancestors[?]




Now this question is harder to answer.



The techniques I mentioned above, called the "comparative method", are really useful for reconstructing languages that must once have existed but aren't directly attested. But this method can only go back so far. Past a certain point, the comparative method just can't say anything particularly meaningful.



So while we know that there was an ancestor to all Indo-European languages, and an ancestor to all Afro-Asiatic languages ("Proto-Afro-Asiatic"), and an ancestor to all Sino-Tibetan languages ("Proto-Sino-Tibetan")…we can't really say anything definite about what came before those. They might all descend from an ancient sort of "Proto-World", or they might have all come about independently. There's just not enough evidence to say one way or the other.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 5 hours ago









DraconisDraconis

20.1k2 gold badges32 silver badges83 bronze badges




20.1k2 gold badges32 silver badges83 bronze badges















  • for those keep score at home: "proto-" means here hypothesized. we do not have kindles or youtube channels from 5000 BC to "directly" "verify" the extrapolation (cf: how to pronounce latin). it is a "reasonable" "assumption" of the precursor to the INDO-EUROPEAN tongues

    – Carly
    4 hours ago











  • @Carly Why the scarequotes? It's true, we have no way to directly verify our reconstructions, and they're reasonably well-founded assumptions.

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago












  • That's not what "proto-" means though, even though it's definitely true we don't have direct evidence (written material). "Proto-" as a prefix comes from Greek and means "first" as well as being used to refer to "original" or "ancestral". It simply refers to the fact that we assume these languages to have the "first of their kind", as in, for instance, the first Indo-European language, all the others of which are derived from. If we had direct attestation, well, we'd probably use its own name, and not "Proto-Something", sure. It's just not what the "proto-" refers to.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • It's also not automatically true that we can't verify our theories about protolanguages (I don't think this was claimed, but I just thought it was worth noting). Actual Proto-Indo-European is extremely unlikely to ever be attested, but for example, we suddenly found ourselves able to read Hittite and to suddenly verify some hypotheses about Indo-European that we had made. I think this shows that there is no need for scarequotes because in this way, comparative linguistics is or can potentially be an experimental science, although it's rare to find precious texts that verify our theories.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • @LjL Agreed. I have also seen "proto-" used specifically for hypothetical reconstructions, and "common" used instead when talking about the actual language—as in, nobody ever spoke Proto-Indo-European, they spoke Common Indo-European, and Proto-Indo-European is our model of that. It doesn't seem like a very useful distinction, though.

    – Draconis
    2 hours ago

















  • for those keep score at home: "proto-" means here hypothesized. we do not have kindles or youtube channels from 5000 BC to "directly" "verify" the extrapolation (cf: how to pronounce latin). it is a "reasonable" "assumption" of the precursor to the INDO-EUROPEAN tongues

    – Carly
    4 hours ago











  • @Carly Why the scarequotes? It's true, we have no way to directly verify our reconstructions, and they're reasonably well-founded assumptions.

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago












  • That's not what "proto-" means though, even though it's definitely true we don't have direct evidence (written material). "Proto-" as a prefix comes from Greek and means "first" as well as being used to refer to "original" or "ancestral". It simply refers to the fact that we assume these languages to have the "first of their kind", as in, for instance, the first Indo-European language, all the others of which are derived from. If we had direct attestation, well, we'd probably use its own name, and not "Proto-Something", sure. It's just not what the "proto-" refers to.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • It's also not automatically true that we can't verify our theories about protolanguages (I don't think this was claimed, but I just thought it was worth noting). Actual Proto-Indo-European is extremely unlikely to ever be attested, but for example, we suddenly found ourselves able to read Hittite and to suddenly verify some hypotheses about Indo-European that we had made. I think this shows that there is no need for scarequotes because in this way, comparative linguistics is or can potentially be an experimental science, although it's rare to find precious texts that verify our theories.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago











  • @LjL Agreed. I have also seen "proto-" used specifically for hypothetical reconstructions, and "common" used instead when talking about the actual language—as in, nobody ever spoke Proto-Indo-European, they spoke Common Indo-European, and Proto-Indo-European is our model of that. It doesn't seem like a very useful distinction, though.

    – Draconis
    2 hours ago
















for those keep score at home: "proto-" means here hypothesized. we do not have kindles or youtube channels from 5000 BC to "directly" "verify" the extrapolation (cf: how to pronounce latin). it is a "reasonable" "assumption" of the precursor to the INDO-EUROPEAN tongues

– Carly
4 hours ago





for those keep score at home: "proto-" means here hypothesized. we do not have kindles or youtube channels from 5000 BC to "directly" "verify" the extrapolation (cf: how to pronounce latin). it is a "reasonable" "assumption" of the precursor to the INDO-EUROPEAN tongues

– Carly
4 hours ago













@Carly Why the scarequotes? It's true, we have no way to directly verify our reconstructions, and they're reasonably well-founded assumptions.

– Draconis
3 hours ago






@Carly Why the scarequotes? It's true, we have no way to directly verify our reconstructions, and they're reasonably well-founded assumptions.

– Draconis
3 hours ago














That's not what "proto-" means though, even though it's definitely true we don't have direct evidence (written material). "Proto-" as a prefix comes from Greek and means "first" as well as being used to refer to "original" or "ancestral". It simply refers to the fact that we assume these languages to have the "first of their kind", as in, for instance, the first Indo-European language, all the others of which are derived from. If we had direct attestation, well, we'd probably use its own name, and not "Proto-Something", sure. It's just not what the "proto-" refers to.

– LjL
2 hours ago





That's not what "proto-" means though, even though it's definitely true we don't have direct evidence (written material). "Proto-" as a prefix comes from Greek and means "first" as well as being used to refer to "original" or "ancestral". It simply refers to the fact that we assume these languages to have the "first of their kind", as in, for instance, the first Indo-European language, all the others of which are derived from. If we had direct attestation, well, we'd probably use its own name, and not "Proto-Something", sure. It's just not what the "proto-" refers to.

– LjL
2 hours ago













It's also not automatically true that we can't verify our theories about protolanguages (I don't think this was claimed, but I just thought it was worth noting). Actual Proto-Indo-European is extremely unlikely to ever be attested, but for example, we suddenly found ourselves able to read Hittite and to suddenly verify some hypotheses about Indo-European that we had made. I think this shows that there is no need for scarequotes because in this way, comparative linguistics is or can potentially be an experimental science, although it's rare to find precious texts that verify our theories.

– LjL
2 hours ago





It's also not automatically true that we can't verify our theories about protolanguages (I don't think this was claimed, but I just thought it was worth noting). Actual Proto-Indo-European is extremely unlikely to ever be attested, but for example, we suddenly found ourselves able to read Hittite and to suddenly verify some hypotheses about Indo-European that we had made. I think this shows that there is no need for scarequotes because in this way, comparative linguistics is or can potentially be an experimental science, although it's rare to find precious texts that verify our theories.

– LjL
2 hours ago













@LjL Agreed. I have also seen "proto-" used specifically for hypothetical reconstructions, and "common" used instead when talking about the actual language—as in, nobody ever spoke Proto-Indo-European, they spoke Common Indo-European, and Proto-Indo-European is our model of that. It doesn't seem like a very useful distinction, though.

– Draconis
2 hours ago





@LjL Agreed. I have also seen "proto-" used specifically for hypothetical reconstructions, and "common" used instead when talking about the actual language—as in, nobody ever spoke Proto-Indo-European, they spoke Common Indo-European, and Proto-Indo-European is our model of that. It doesn't seem like a very useful distinction, though.

– Draconis
2 hours ago













3
















Sanskrit is not the mother of all languages. Sanskrit is not even the mother of the modern Indo-Aryan languages of the Northern India. Neither it is their father or grandfather. In fact, no language is a direct descendant of Sanskrit.



Saying that Sanskrit to the modern Indo-Aryan languages is the same as Latin to the modern Romance languages is absolutely wrong. The Romance languages are direct descendants of Latin, but the modern Indo-Aryan languages are not direct descendants of Sanskrit. The best European analogy is the role Ancient Greek played for the modern European languages: Ancient Greek affected them all, filled them with lots of words and syntactic structures, but none of those languages is a direct descendant of Ancient Greek, naturally with the exception of modern Greek.



If to continue the family analogy, to the modern Indo-Aryan languages Sanskrit is a cousin grandfather who was their teacher, their guru. The Indo-Aryan languages descend from grandfather's siblings, but grandfather himself had no children.



Speaking more linguistically, there are actually two languages called Sansktit: the Vedic Sanskrit aka the Vedic language (ca. 1500 to 500 BCE), and Sanskrit proper aka Classical Sanskrit (ca. 200 CE to 1300 CE), the latter being a refined and artistic, highly elaborate version of the former. The Vedic language was once a vernacular, but since the texts in it were holy and highly revered, the language was later standardized and it underwent polishing by Indian sages and philosophers giving rise to Sanskrit whose name can be translated as "well prepared, pure and perfect, polished". But apart from Sanskrit proper, the Vedic language gave rise to its sister languages, not so refined, not so polished, but which were really vernacular languages in the times when Sanskrit bekame the language of educated philosophers, brahmanas, and poets. Those sister languages are called Prakrits, "natural, original, unpolished", the main ones being Maharashtri, Gandhari, Shauraseni, and Magadhi. Pali can also be considered a Prakrit, although later they did polish it very much. The Prakrits are the Middle Indo-Aryan languages, it is from them that the Modern Indo-Aryan languages developed.






share|improve this answer




















  • 2





    <s>(Don't forget Paisācī!)</s>

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago






  • 3





    I think much of this is true for languages derived from Latin, too, in the sense that they are derived from Vulgar Latin, which was likely quite different from Classical Latin even during classical times. I'd say there is a close parallel between "Classical" and "Sanskrit" meaning literary and refined on one hand, and "Vulgar" and "Prakrit" meaning natural vernaculars on the other.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago















3
















Sanskrit is not the mother of all languages. Sanskrit is not even the mother of the modern Indo-Aryan languages of the Northern India. Neither it is their father or grandfather. In fact, no language is a direct descendant of Sanskrit.



Saying that Sanskrit to the modern Indo-Aryan languages is the same as Latin to the modern Romance languages is absolutely wrong. The Romance languages are direct descendants of Latin, but the modern Indo-Aryan languages are not direct descendants of Sanskrit. The best European analogy is the role Ancient Greek played for the modern European languages: Ancient Greek affected them all, filled them with lots of words and syntactic structures, but none of those languages is a direct descendant of Ancient Greek, naturally with the exception of modern Greek.



If to continue the family analogy, to the modern Indo-Aryan languages Sanskrit is a cousin grandfather who was their teacher, their guru. The Indo-Aryan languages descend from grandfather's siblings, but grandfather himself had no children.



Speaking more linguistically, there are actually two languages called Sansktit: the Vedic Sanskrit aka the Vedic language (ca. 1500 to 500 BCE), and Sanskrit proper aka Classical Sanskrit (ca. 200 CE to 1300 CE), the latter being a refined and artistic, highly elaborate version of the former. The Vedic language was once a vernacular, but since the texts in it were holy and highly revered, the language was later standardized and it underwent polishing by Indian sages and philosophers giving rise to Sanskrit whose name can be translated as "well prepared, pure and perfect, polished". But apart from Sanskrit proper, the Vedic language gave rise to its sister languages, not so refined, not so polished, but which were really vernacular languages in the times when Sanskrit bekame the language of educated philosophers, brahmanas, and poets. Those sister languages are called Prakrits, "natural, original, unpolished", the main ones being Maharashtri, Gandhari, Shauraseni, and Magadhi. Pali can also be considered a Prakrit, although later they did polish it very much. The Prakrits are the Middle Indo-Aryan languages, it is from them that the Modern Indo-Aryan languages developed.






share|improve this answer




















  • 2





    <s>(Don't forget Paisācī!)</s>

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago






  • 3





    I think much of this is true for languages derived from Latin, too, in the sense that they are derived from Vulgar Latin, which was likely quite different from Classical Latin even during classical times. I'd say there is a close parallel between "Classical" and "Sanskrit" meaning literary and refined on one hand, and "Vulgar" and "Prakrit" meaning natural vernaculars on the other.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago













3














3










3









Sanskrit is not the mother of all languages. Sanskrit is not even the mother of the modern Indo-Aryan languages of the Northern India. Neither it is their father or grandfather. In fact, no language is a direct descendant of Sanskrit.



Saying that Sanskrit to the modern Indo-Aryan languages is the same as Latin to the modern Romance languages is absolutely wrong. The Romance languages are direct descendants of Latin, but the modern Indo-Aryan languages are not direct descendants of Sanskrit. The best European analogy is the role Ancient Greek played for the modern European languages: Ancient Greek affected them all, filled them with lots of words and syntactic structures, but none of those languages is a direct descendant of Ancient Greek, naturally with the exception of modern Greek.



If to continue the family analogy, to the modern Indo-Aryan languages Sanskrit is a cousin grandfather who was their teacher, their guru. The Indo-Aryan languages descend from grandfather's siblings, but grandfather himself had no children.



Speaking more linguistically, there are actually two languages called Sansktit: the Vedic Sanskrit aka the Vedic language (ca. 1500 to 500 BCE), and Sanskrit proper aka Classical Sanskrit (ca. 200 CE to 1300 CE), the latter being a refined and artistic, highly elaborate version of the former. The Vedic language was once a vernacular, but since the texts in it were holy and highly revered, the language was later standardized and it underwent polishing by Indian sages and philosophers giving rise to Sanskrit whose name can be translated as "well prepared, pure and perfect, polished". But apart from Sanskrit proper, the Vedic language gave rise to its sister languages, not so refined, not so polished, but which were really vernacular languages in the times when Sanskrit bekame the language of educated philosophers, brahmanas, and poets. Those sister languages are called Prakrits, "natural, original, unpolished", the main ones being Maharashtri, Gandhari, Shauraseni, and Magadhi. Pali can also be considered a Prakrit, although later they did polish it very much. The Prakrits are the Middle Indo-Aryan languages, it is from them that the Modern Indo-Aryan languages developed.






share|improve this answer













Sanskrit is not the mother of all languages. Sanskrit is not even the mother of the modern Indo-Aryan languages of the Northern India. Neither it is their father or grandfather. In fact, no language is a direct descendant of Sanskrit.



Saying that Sanskrit to the modern Indo-Aryan languages is the same as Latin to the modern Romance languages is absolutely wrong. The Romance languages are direct descendants of Latin, but the modern Indo-Aryan languages are not direct descendants of Sanskrit. The best European analogy is the role Ancient Greek played for the modern European languages: Ancient Greek affected them all, filled them with lots of words and syntactic structures, but none of those languages is a direct descendant of Ancient Greek, naturally with the exception of modern Greek.



If to continue the family analogy, to the modern Indo-Aryan languages Sanskrit is a cousin grandfather who was their teacher, their guru. The Indo-Aryan languages descend from grandfather's siblings, but grandfather himself had no children.



Speaking more linguistically, there are actually two languages called Sansktit: the Vedic Sanskrit aka the Vedic language (ca. 1500 to 500 BCE), and Sanskrit proper aka Classical Sanskrit (ca. 200 CE to 1300 CE), the latter being a refined and artistic, highly elaborate version of the former. The Vedic language was once a vernacular, but since the texts in it were holy and highly revered, the language was later standardized and it underwent polishing by Indian sages and philosophers giving rise to Sanskrit whose name can be translated as "well prepared, pure and perfect, polished". But apart from Sanskrit proper, the Vedic language gave rise to its sister languages, not so refined, not so polished, but which were really vernacular languages in the times when Sanskrit bekame the language of educated philosophers, brahmanas, and poets. Those sister languages are called Prakrits, "natural, original, unpolished", the main ones being Maharashtri, Gandhari, Shauraseni, and Magadhi. Pali can also be considered a Prakrit, although later they did polish it very much. The Prakrits are the Middle Indo-Aryan languages, it is from them that the Modern Indo-Aryan languages developed.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 3 hours ago









Yellow SkyYellow Sky

8,59622 silver badges37 bronze badges




8,59622 silver badges37 bronze badges










  • 2





    <s>(Don't forget Paisācī!)</s>

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago






  • 3





    I think much of this is true for languages derived from Latin, too, in the sense that they are derived from Vulgar Latin, which was likely quite different from Classical Latin even during classical times. I'd say there is a close parallel between "Classical" and "Sanskrit" meaning literary and refined on one hand, and "Vulgar" and "Prakrit" meaning natural vernaculars on the other.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago












  • 2





    <s>(Don't forget Paisācī!)</s>

    – Draconis
    3 hours ago






  • 3





    I think much of this is true for languages derived from Latin, too, in the sense that they are derived from Vulgar Latin, which was likely quite different from Classical Latin even during classical times. I'd say there is a close parallel between "Classical" and "Sanskrit" meaning literary and refined on one hand, and "Vulgar" and "Prakrit" meaning natural vernaculars on the other.

    – LjL
    2 hours ago







2




2





<s>(Don't forget Paisācī!)</s>

– Draconis
3 hours ago





<s>(Don't forget Paisācī!)</s>

– Draconis
3 hours ago




3




3





I think much of this is true for languages derived from Latin, too, in the sense that they are derived from Vulgar Latin, which was likely quite different from Classical Latin even during classical times. I'd say there is a close parallel between "Classical" and "Sanskrit" meaning literary and refined on one hand, and "Vulgar" and "Prakrit" meaning natural vernaculars on the other.

– LjL
2 hours ago





I think much of this is true for languages derived from Latin, too, in the sense that they are derived from Vulgar Latin, which was likely quite different from Classical Latin even during classical times. I'd say there is a close parallel between "Classical" and "Sanskrit" meaning literary and refined on one hand, and "Vulgar" and "Prakrit" meaning natural vernaculars on the other.

– LjL
2 hours ago










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