Why does MAGMA claim that the automorphism group of an elliptic curve is order 24 when it is order 12?How to ask Magma to compute the induced morphisim on divisor groupIs there a MAGMA function to calculate the absolutely irreducible components of an algebraic curve defined over the rationals?My output of a group and inverse-closed subset in MAGMA is no longer inverse-closed when entered as input to GAP. Is there an interval of finite groups, at index n, with strictly more elements than the subgroup lattice of any group, of order n?

Why does MAGMA claim that the automorphism group of an elliptic curve is order 24 when it is order 12?


How to ask Magma to compute the induced morphisim on divisor groupIs there a MAGMA function to calculate the absolutely irreducible components of an algebraic curve defined over the rationals?My output of a group and inverse-closed subset in MAGMA is no longer inverse-closed when entered as input to GAP. Is there an interval of finite groups, at index n, with strictly more elements than the subgroup lattice of any group, of order n?













2












$begingroup$


I am trying to get the hang of the available software for computing automorphism groups of plane curves over finite fields. I am using this Magma code to test it out on $y^2 = x^3 + x$ over $mathbbF_3$, which we know is of order 12 by (pg. 410, Prop 1.2(c)) Silverman's Arithmetic of Elliptic Curves.



The following Magma code gives me as output that the order is 24. Moreover, it also does this for seemingly every other plane curve I can think to put in.



I wrote this code according to the exposition here on the Magma webpage. Something terribly wrong is going on, likely I am misunderstanding something fundamental.



A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(3),2);
f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
C := Curve(A,f);
G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
Order(G);









share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    $f:=y^2-x^3-x$ maybe ? $-1$ is not a square in $F_3$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henri Cohen
    8 hours ago















2












$begingroup$


I am trying to get the hang of the available software for computing automorphism groups of plane curves over finite fields. I am using this Magma code to test it out on $y^2 = x^3 + x$ over $mathbbF_3$, which we know is of order 12 by (pg. 410, Prop 1.2(c)) Silverman's Arithmetic of Elliptic Curves.



The following Magma code gives me as output that the order is 24. Moreover, it also does this for seemingly every other plane curve I can think to put in.



I wrote this code according to the exposition here on the Magma webpage. Something terribly wrong is going on, likely I am misunderstanding something fundamental.



A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(3),2);
f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
C := Curve(A,f);
G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
Order(G);









share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    $f:=y^2-x^3-x$ maybe ? $-1$ is not a square in $F_3$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henri Cohen
    8 hours ago













2












2








2


1



$begingroup$


I am trying to get the hang of the available software for computing automorphism groups of plane curves over finite fields. I am using this Magma code to test it out on $y^2 = x^3 + x$ over $mathbbF_3$, which we know is of order 12 by (pg. 410, Prop 1.2(c)) Silverman's Arithmetic of Elliptic Curves.



The following Magma code gives me as output that the order is 24. Moreover, it also does this for seemingly every other plane curve I can think to put in.



I wrote this code according to the exposition here on the Magma webpage. Something terribly wrong is going on, likely I am misunderstanding something fundamental.



A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(3),2);
f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
C := Curve(A,f);
G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
Order(G);









share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




I am trying to get the hang of the available software for computing automorphism groups of plane curves over finite fields. I am using this Magma code to test it out on $y^2 = x^3 + x$ over $mathbbF_3$, which we know is of order 12 by (pg. 410, Prop 1.2(c)) Silverman's Arithmetic of Elliptic Curves.



The following Magma code gives me as output that the order is 24. Moreover, it also does this for seemingly every other plane curve I can think to put in.



I wrote this code according to the exposition here on the Magma webpage. Something terribly wrong is going on, likely I am misunderstanding something fundamental.



A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(3),2);
f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
C := Curve(A,f);
G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
Order(G);






magma






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share|cite|improve this question










asked 8 hours ago









Catherine RayCatherine Ray

1,253429




1,253429







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    $f:=y^2-x^3-x$ maybe ? $-1$ is not a square in $F_3$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henri Cohen
    8 hours ago












  • 3




    $begingroup$
    $f:=y^2-x^3-x$ maybe ? $-1$ is not a square in $F_3$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henri Cohen
    8 hours ago







3




3




$begingroup$
$f:=y^2-x^3-x$ maybe ? $-1$ is not a square in $F_3$.
$endgroup$
– Henri Cohen
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
$f:=y^2-x^3-x$ maybe ? $-1$ is not a square in $F_3$.
$endgroup$
– Henri Cohen
8 hours ago










1 Answer
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10












$begingroup$

Magma is computing the automorphism group of the associated projective curve $E$ defined over the base field (according to the link you gave). You are thinking of the automorphism group of $E$ as an elliptic curve i.e. with $infty$ fixed.
The group magma is computing will also include the translations which are defined over the base, so there is a short exact sequence:



$$0 rightarrow E(k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsProjectiveCurve(E,k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,k) rightarrow 0.$$



Your curve has $4$ points defined over $mathbfF_3$, but in fact only a subgroup of order $6$ of the order $12$ group $mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,overlinemathbfF_3)$ of geometric automorphisms fixing $infty$ are defined over $mathbfF_3$. Thus $24 = 6 cdot 4$ is the correct anser. The extra automorphism of the elliptic curve is defined over $mathbfF_9 = mathbfF_3[i]$. Also, we have $|E(mathbfF_9)| = 16$, because the the zeta function is equal to



$$frac(1 + 3 T^2)(1-T)(1-3T) = 1 + 4 T + 16 T^2 + ldots = 1 + 4 T + frac12 left(frac4^22 + 16right) T^2 + ldots $$



And indeed:



A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(9),2);
f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
C := Curve(A,f);
G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
Order(G);


Gives the answer $192 = 12 cdot 16$. This is also why magma will refuse to do the same computation over $mathbfQ$ --- that would require computing all the rational points! To give some other examples, you can take a random elliptic curve with no automorphisms (as an elliptic curve) besides $pm 1$ and compare the answer to the number of points modulo p:



A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(41),2);
f := y^2 - (x^3 + x + 1);
C := Curve(A,f);
G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
Order(G);


returns $70$, and indeed $|A(mathbfF_41)| = 1 + 41 - (-7) = 35$, and $70 = 2 cdot 35$.






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    $begingroup$

    Magma is computing the automorphism group of the associated projective curve $E$ defined over the base field (according to the link you gave). You are thinking of the automorphism group of $E$ as an elliptic curve i.e. with $infty$ fixed.
    The group magma is computing will also include the translations which are defined over the base, so there is a short exact sequence:



    $$0 rightarrow E(k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsProjectiveCurve(E,k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,k) rightarrow 0.$$



    Your curve has $4$ points defined over $mathbfF_3$, but in fact only a subgroup of order $6$ of the order $12$ group $mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,overlinemathbfF_3)$ of geometric automorphisms fixing $infty$ are defined over $mathbfF_3$. Thus $24 = 6 cdot 4$ is the correct anser. The extra automorphism of the elliptic curve is defined over $mathbfF_9 = mathbfF_3[i]$. Also, we have $|E(mathbfF_9)| = 16$, because the the zeta function is equal to



    $$frac(1 + 3 T^2)(1-T)(1-3T) = 1 + 4 T + 16 T^2 + ldots = 1 + 4 T + frac12 left(frac4^22 + 16right) T^2 + ldots $$



    And indeed:



    A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(9),2);
    f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
    C := Curve(A,f);
    G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
    Order(G);


    Gives the answer $192 = 12 cdot 16$. This is also why magma will refuse to do the same computation over $mathbfQ$ --- that would require computing all the rational points! To give some other examples, you can take a random elliptic curve with no automorphisms (as an elliptic curve) besides $pm 1$ and compare the answer to the number of points modulo p:



    A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(41),2);
    f := y^2 - (x^3 + x + 1);
    C := Curve(A,f);
    G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
    Order(G);


    returns $70$, and indeed $|A(mathbfF_41)| = 1 + 41 - (-7) = 35$, and $70 = 2 cdot 35$.






    share|cite|improve this answer










    New contributor



    A million tiny pieces is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.





    $endgroup$

















      10












      $begingroup$

      Magma is computing the automorphism group of the associated projective curve $E$ defined over the base field (according to the link you gave). You are thinking of the automorphism group of $E$ as an elliptic curve i.e. with $infty$ fixed.
      The group magma is computing will also include the translations which are defined over the base, so there is a short exact sequence:



      $$0 rightarrow E(k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsProjectiveCurve(E,k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,k) rightarrow 0.$$



      Your curve has $4$ points defined over $mathbfF_3$, but in fact only a subgroup of order $6$ of the order $12$ group $mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,overlinemathbfF_3)$ of geometric automorphisms fixing $infty$ are defined over $mathbfF_3$. Thus $24 = 6 cdot 4$ is the correct anser. The extra automorphism of the elliptic curve is defined over $mathbfF_9 = mathbfF_3[i]$. Also, we have $|E(mathbfF_9)| = 16$, because the the zeta function is equal to



      $$frac(1 + 3 T^2)(1-T)(1-3T) = 1 + 4 T + 16 T^2 + ldots = 1 + 4 T + frac12 left(frac4^22 + 16right) T^2 + ldots $$



      And indeed:



      A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(9),2);
      f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
      C := Curve(A,f);
      G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
      Order(G);


      Gives the answer $192 = 12 cdot 16$. This is also why magma will refuse to do the same computation over $mathbfQ$ --- that would require computing all the rational points! To give some other examples, you can take a random elliptic curve with no automorphisms (as an elliptic curve) besides $pm 1$ and compare the answer to the number of points modulo p:



      A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(41),2);
      f := y^2 - (x^3 + x + 1);
      C := Curve(A,f);
      G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
      Order(G);


      returns $70$, and indeed $|A(mathbfF_41)| = 1 + 41 - (-7) = 35$, and $70 = 2 cdot 35$.






      share|cite|improve this answer










      New contributor



      A million tiny pieces is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.





      $endgroup$















        10












        10








        10





        $begingroup$

        Magma is computing the automorphism group of the associated projective curve $E$ defined over the base field (according to the link you gave). You are thinking of the automorphism group of $E$ as an elliptic curve i.e. with $infty$ fixed.
        The group magma is computing will also include the translations which are defined over the base, so there is a short exact sequence:



        $$0 rightarrow E(k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsProjectiveCurve(E,k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,k) rightarrow 0.$$



        Your curve has $4$ points defined over $mathbfF_3$, but in fact only a subgroup of order $6$ of the order $12$ group $mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,overlinemathbfF_3)$ of geometric automorphisms fixing $infty$ are defined over $mathbfF_3$. Thus $24 = 6 cdot 4$ is the correct anser. The extra automorphism of the elliptic curve is defined over $mathbfF_9 = mathbfF_3[i]$. Also, we have $|E(mathbfF_9)| = 16$, because the the zeta function is equal to



        $$frac(1 + 3 T^2)(1-T)(1-3T) = 1 + 4 T + 16 T^2 + ldots = 1 + 4 T + frac12 left(frac4^22 + 16right) T^2 + ldots $$



        And indeed:



        A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(9),2);
        f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
        C := Curve(A,f);
        G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
        Order(G);


        Gives the answer $192 = 12 cdot 16$. This is also why magma will refuse to do the same computation over $mathbfQ$ --- that would require computing all the rational points! To give some other examples, you can take a random elliptic curve with no automorphisms (as an elliptic curve) besides $pm 1$ and compare the answer to the number of points modulo p:



        A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(41),2);
        f := y^2 - (x^3 + x + 1);
        C := Curve(A,f);
        G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
        Order(G);


        returns $70$, and indeed $|A(mathbfF_41)| = 1 + 41 - (-7) = 35$, and $70 = 2 cdot 35$.






        share|cite|improve this answer










        New contributor



        A million tiny pieces is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





        $endgroup$



        Magma is computing the automorphism group of the associated projective curve $E$ defined over the base field (according to the link you gave). You are thinking of the automorphism group of $E$ as an elliptic curve i.e. with $infty$ fixed.
        The group magma is computing will also include the translations which are defined over the base, so there is a short exact sequence:



        $$0 rightarrow E(k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsProjectiveCurve(E,k) rightarrow mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,k) rightarrow 0.$$



        Your curve has $4$ points defined over $mathbfF_3$, but in fact only a subgroup of order $6$ of the order $12$ group $mathrmAutAsEllipticCurve(E,overlinemathbfF_3)$ of geometric automorphisms fixing $infty$ are defined over $mathbfF_3$. Thus $24 = 6 cdot 4$ is the correct anser. The extra automorphism of the elliptic curve is defined over $mathbfF_9 = mathbfF_3[i]$. Also, we have $|E(mathbfF_9)| = 16$, because the the zeta function is equal to



        $$frac(1 + 3 T^2)(1-T)(1-3T) = 1 + 4 T + 16 T^2 + ldots = 1 + 4 T + frac12 left(frac4^22 + 16right) T^2 + ldots $$



        And indeed:



        A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(9),2);
        f := y^2 - x^3 + x;
        C := Curve(A,f);
        G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
        Order(G);


        Gives the answer $192 = 12 cdot 16$. This is also why magma will refuse to do the same computation over $mathbfQ$ --- that would require computing all the rational points! To give some other examples, you can take a random elliptic curve with no automorphisms (as an elliptic curve) besides $pm 1$ and compare the answer to the number of points modulo p:



        A<x,y> := AffineSpace(FiniteField(41),2);
        f := y^2 - (x^3 + x + 1);
        C := Curve(A,f);
        G := AutomorphismGroup(C);
        Order(G);


        returns $70$, and indeed $|A(mathbfF_41)| = 1 + 41 - (-7) = 35$, and $70 = 2 cdot 35$.







        share|cite|improve this answer










        New contributor



        A million tiny pieces is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.








        share|cite|improve this answer



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        edited 7 hours ago





















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        answered 7 hours ago









        A million tiny piecesA million tiny pieces

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