Can anyone give me the reason why music is taught this way?How do you remember your music and how do I improve in this regard?Learning to create melodiesUse of Music Theory in CompositionEssential things to memorize in music theoryIs it wrong to alter bar numbers after repeat endings so they reflect the performance progression rather than the last repeated measure +1?Can someone give specifics on the nonharmonic Tones?Why is the alignment of notes written this way?Does the ability of reading and writing music on staff help with learning music fundamentals?Why would anyone say that it is problematic to notate this chant like this instead of using the standard notation for gregorian chant?
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Can anyone give me the reason why music is taught this way?
How do you remember your music and how do I improve in this regard?Learning to create melodiesUse of Music Theory in CompositionEssential things to memorize in music theoryIs it wrong to alter bar numbers after repeat endings so they reflect the performance progression rather than the last repeated measure +1?Can someone give specifics on the nonharmonic Tones?Why is the alignment of notes written this way?Does the ability of reading and writing music on staff help with learning music fundamentals?Why would anyone say that it is problematic to notate this chant like this instead of using the standard notation for gregorian chant?
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Children learn language by listening to peoole speaking it and then trying to repeat what they heard and making up their own sentences.
In classical music education the focus has been on repeating what you read in a book with sheet music. Actually, you first learn speak a bit before you read. In classical music education you focus on repeating the exact things you see in the book with sheet music. Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences. A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in classical music education.
Can anyone please explain why this is?
theory
add a comment
|
Children learn language by listening to peoole speaking it and then trying to repeat what they heard and making up their own sentences.
In classical music education the focus has been on repeating what you read in a book with sheet music. Actually, you first learn speak a bit before you read. In classical music education you focus on repeating the exact things you see in the book with sheet music. Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences. A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in classical music education.
Can anyone please explain why this is?
theory
2
First there is not one single method of teaching music. There are different schools and every teacher can teach his own way and style. Then you can't compare everyday learning with learning in school. This happens moment by moment, studying is systematically. There are parallels of music education and learning a language. As a child learns to speak needs to develop the basic functions speaking, writing and reading. The same in music education. Learning to play an instrument can go different ways. It can be by discovering and improvising or systematically ( learning rules of grammar).
– Albrecht Hügli
8 hours ago
1
I dated a linguist once who specialized in language acquirement. The mental process by which children acquire their first language is, as far as we know, unique to language acquirement. It is not possible to teach a second language to a person who is older than about three years old in the same way children acquire their first language. Therefore, it’s even more impossible to teach anything else that same way.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I think all the answers are in the same direction: accidental learning versus systematical teaching. What we should keep in mind : Not everyone is learning music to become a composer or an orchestra musician. Most of us would like to enjoy music playing as a sense full hobby.
– Albrecht Hügli
6 hours ago
From my experience listening to music on Musescore.com, it's shockingly hard to write decent music without prior education. I suspect this is why children are not allowed the equivalent of "creating their own sentences" until they ask to do so.
– Dekkadeci
1 hour ago
The Suzuki Method is based on that you learn to play similar to the way you learn to speak, so you play before you read. Many classical musicians started that way. But it requires a strong active participation from the parents and it is for children at pre school age. Children starting when they are in school age will want to be less dependent on their parents' active participation in the lessons, which means the students must be able to relate to the reference material themselves which again means ability to read music becomes a natural part of the learning process.
– Lars Peter Schultz
31 mins ago
add a comment
|
Children learn language by listening to peoole speaking it and then trying to repeat what they heard and making up their own sentences.
In classical music education the focus has been on repeating what you read in a book with sheet music. Actually, you first learn speak a bit before you read. In classical music education you focus on repeating the exact things you see in the book with sheet music. Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences. A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in classical music education.
Can anyone please explain why this is?
theory
Children learn language by listening to peoole speaking it and then trying to repeat what they heard and making up their own sentences.
In classical music education the focus has been on repeating what you read in a book with sheet music. Actually, you first learn speak a bit before you read. In classical music education you focus on repeating the exact things you see in the book with sheet music. Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences. A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in classical music education.
Can anyone please explain why this is?
theory
theory
edited 7 hours ago
Todd Wilcox
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41.4k4 gold badges77 silver badges140 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
HankHank
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8157 silver badges22 bronze badges
2
First there is not one single method of teaching music. There are different schools and every teacher can teach his own way and style. Then you can't compare everyday learning with learning in school. This happens moment by moment, studying is systematically. There are parallels of music education and learning a language. As a child learns to speak needs to develop the basic functions speaking, writing and reading. The same in music education. Learning to play an instrument can go different ways. It can be by discovering and improvising or systematically ( learning rules of grammar).
– Albrecht Hügli
8 hours ago
1
I dated a linguist once who specialized in language acquirement. The mental process by which children acquire their first language is, as far as we know, unique to language acquirement. It is not possible to teach a second language to a person who is older than about three years old in the same way children acquire their first language. Therefore, it’s even more impossible to teach anything else that same way.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I think all the answers are in the same direction: accidental learning versus systematical teaching. What we should keep in mind : Not everyone is learning music to become a composer or an orchestra musician. Most of us would like to enjoy music playing as a sense full hobby.
– Albrecht Hügli
6 hours ago
From my experience listening to music on Musescore.com, it's shockingly hard to write decent music without prior education. I suspect this is why children are not allowed the equivalent of "creating their own sentences" until they ask to do so.
– Dekkadeci
1 hour ago
The Suzuki Method is based on that you learn to play similar to the way you learn to speak, so you play before you read. Many classical musicians started that way. But it requires a strong active participation from the parents and it is for children at pre school age. Children starting when they are in school age will want to be less dependent on their parents' active participation in the lessons, which means the students must be able to relate to the reference material themselves which again means ability to read music becomes a natural part of the learning process.
– Lars Peter Schultz
31 mins ago
add a comment
|
2
First there is not one single method of teaching music. There are different schools and every teacher can teach his own way and style. Then you can't compare everyday learning with learning in school. This happens moment by moment, studying is systematically. There are parallels of music education and learning a language. As a child learns to speak needs to develop the basic functions speaking, writing and reading. The same in music education. Learning to play an instrument can go different ways. It can be by discovering and improvising or systematically ( learning rules of grammar).
– Albrecht Hügli
8 hours ago
1
I dated a linguist once who specialized in language acquirement. The mental process by which children acquire their first language is, as far as we know, unique to language acquirement. It is not possible to teach a second language to a person who is older than about three years old in the same way children acquire their first language. Therefore, it’s even more impossible to teach anything else that same way.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I think all the answers are in the same direction: accidental learning versus systematical teaching. What we should keep in mind : Not everyone is learning music to become a composer or an orchestra musician. Most of us would like to enjoy music playing as a sense full hobby.
– Albrecht Hügli
6 hours ago
From my experience listening to music on Musescore.com, it's shockingly hard to write decent music without prior education. I suspect this is why children are not allowed the equivalent of "creating their own sentences" until they ask to do so.
– Dekkadeci
1 hour ago
The Suzuki Method is based on that you learn to play similar to the way you learn to speak, so you play before you read. Many classical musicians started that way. But it requires a strong active participation from the parents and it is for children at pre school age. Children starting when they are in school age will want to be less dependent on their parents' active participation in the lessons, which means the students must be able to relate to the reference material themselves which again means ability to read music becomes a natural part of the learning process.
– Lars Peter Schultz
31 mins ago
2
2
First there is not one single method of teaching music. There are different schools and every teacher can teach his own way and style. Then you can't compare everyday learning with learning in school. This happens moment by moment, studying is systematically. There are parallels of music education and learning a language. As a child learns to speak needs to develop the basic functions speaking, writing and reading. The same in music education. Learning to play an instrument can go different ways. It can be by discovering and improvising or systematically ( learning rules of grammar).
– Albrecht Hügli
8 hours ago
First there is not one single method of teaching music. There are different schools and every teacher can teach his own way and style. Then you can't compare everyday learning with learning in school. This happens moment by moment, studying is systematically. There are parallels of music education and learning a language. As a child learns to speak needs to develop the basic functions speaking, writing and reading. The same in music education. Learning to play an instrument can go different ways. It can be by discovering and improvising or systematically ( learning rules of grammar).
– Albrecht Hügli
8 hours ago
1
1
I dated a linguist once who specialized in language acquirement. The mental process by which children acquire their first language is, as far as we know, unique to language acquirement. It is not possible to teach a second language to a person who is older than about three years old in the same way children acquire their first language. Therefore, it’s even more impossible to teach anything else that same way.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I dated a linguist once who specialized in language acquirement. The mental process by which children acquire their first language is, as far as we know, unique to language acquirement. It is not possible to teach a second language to a person who is older than about three years old in the same way children acquire their first language. Therefore, it’s even more impossible to teach anything else that same way.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I think all the answers are in the same direction: accidental learning versus systematical teaching. What we should keep in mind : Not everyone is learning music to become a composer or an orchestra musician. Most of us would like to enjoy music playing as a sense full hobby.
– Albrecht Hügli
6 hours ago
I think all the answers are in the same direction: accidental learning versus systematical teaching. What we should keep in mind : Not everyone is learning music to become a composer or an orchestra musician. Most of us would like to enjoy music playing as a sense full hobby.
– Albrecht Hügli
6 hours ago
From my experience listening to music on Musescore.com, it's shockingly hard to write decent music without prior education. I suspect this is why children are not allowed the equivalent of "creating their own sentences" until they ask to do so.
– Dekkadeci
1 hour ago
From my experience listening to music on Musescore.com, it's shockingly hard to write decent music without prior education. I suspect this is why children are not allowed the equivalent of "creating their own sentences" until they ask to do so.
– Dekkadeci
1 hour ago
The Suzuki Method is based on that you learn to play similar to the way you learn to speak, so you play before you read. Many classical musicians started that way. But it requires a strong active participation from the parents and it is for children at pre school age. Children starting when they are in school age will want to be less dependent on their parents' active participation in the lessons, which means the students must be able to relate to the reference material themselves which again means ability to read music becomes a natural part of the learning process.
– Lars Peter Schultz
31 mins ago
The Suzuki Method is based on that you learn to play similar to the way you learn to speak, so you play before you read. Many classical musicians started that way. But it requires a strong active participation from the parents and it is for children at pre school age. Children starting when they are in school age will want to be less dependent on their parents' active participation in the lessons, which means the students must be able to relate to the reference material themselves which again means ability to read music becomes a natural part of the learning process.
– Lars Peter Schultz
31 mins ago
add a comment
|
4 Answers
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There are probably a few reasons for this. First of all I agree with your point that, like a language, it makes sense to play and make up your own sentences before learning the formalities of grammar and spelling. I see music as a language and feel that kids are better off exploring before formal training.
Although we learn out first language the way you describe once we get older many people do better with a formal list of words and rules for grammar. I think you learn a new language faster this way because you now understand how the patterns of one language work and there is significant overlap, especially if the languages have a common root like Latin, Old German, Sanskrit etc.
But music is different so the analogy I just made may fail. I think the learning method you are asking about is most common in the western classical musical tradition. In this context one's future is most likely in an orchestral setting where sight reading and following a conductor is what gets you ahead. So if you take lessons in violin, oboe, etc, from a classical instructor this may be the path you are set on as that is the path they are on, and so on.
I should also point out that perhaps you question is a red herring. It does in fact depend on what you are calling "classical". The tradition in flamenco guitar (some might say its true intended cultural expression) would probably be more like your initial language example. This is the case in many other forms of ethnic folk music. You learn to play the instrument (no easy task) by learning simple tunes from a teacher or by ear and expand on that in time with more complex songs and techniques. Classical Indian music involve learning melodic patterns, Ragas, and rhythmic patterns, Taals. There is some form of written expression for instructing musicians how to play these, but not like in western music. I think the development of large choirs and orchestras required a standardization of notation across all instruments and a common method for getting everyone ready to play together. There isn't much room in a symphony for individual improv like there is in folk music, flamenco, Indian raga, etc.
add a comment
|
Language learning is innate* - everybody can do it & everybody learns the language to which they're first exposed without initial tuition.
Tuition comes years after first exposure & simple speech patterns.
By the time a child is 7, that initial language learning capability has diminished by factors. Learning a second language at 7 is possible, & still relatively easy compared to learning one at 18.
Music is taught somewhere between the 7 - 18 methods. Musical 'grammar' is not really taught until a basic grasp of "see the note, play the note" has been grasped.
Many people, conversely, are self-taught & come to the grammar later. This then needs to correspond more closely to the 18-year-old method, as a second language.
*If you want [much] more info on this read Noam Chomsky, or a much easier ride, Steven Pinker - The Language Instinct.
Unfortunately, not everyone can acquire a first language in the normal way. Infants who are impaired in any way related to hearing or speech may struggle their whole lives to learn a first language when their impairment prevented them from acquiring one in the usual way. But aside from those cases, yes language acquirement is a natural and mainly automatic process.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I thought I wouldn't unnecessarily complicate things. There are also people who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, though all that usually entails is them never doing more than a bit of painful [for everyone else] karaoke ;)
– Tetsujin
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
Classical music tradition has something of a separation between the activities of composition and performance, with the score as the 'interface' between the two functions.
Most of what you describe relates to learning to play. With traditional instruments and in the absence of computer/recording technology, it would be very hard to compose without some playing skills - and at the very least, without having a good enough understanding of the score to be able to write scores that other players understand. So it makes some sense for composition to be taught after a reasonable standard in performance has been attained.
You could imagine that people could just 'play to' each other in the absence of a score, in an improvisatory way - and of course that kind of tradition does exist, but is seen more as the folk music tradition, rather than the classical music tradition.
add a comment
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You can't compare music education (especially not the teaching of playing an instrument) with learning/teaching a language - even if music may be compared with a language.
It would be more appropriate to compare learning an instrument with learning to read and writing. Some children learn to read or write just by playing and discovering but most people learn it systematically and some even not then.
And even if most children have had 9 years of singing and reading at school they leave school as adult musical illiterates. But children who have been trained systematically in music and play an instrument are able to read music. This needs a lot of practice and especially motivation.
There have always been good musicians and artists who have learnt an instrument by themselves and with no lessons of systematic education: just by imitation, invention and listening to others. But many of them wouldn't have become composers or writers.
What you're probably mean is that a child would be more motivated to learn an instrument when it could just copy someone other and had more freedom in learning and playing like e.g. football. This chance is given today with all these apps and youtube videos. They can be very helpful and benefit - especially for motivation.
If this is your concern I would give you support. I've been music teacher and working with children all my life. And I know how important it is to find the right balance between drill/practice and relax/joy. (I don't write fun and I say: motivation is all! Intrinsic motivation: This means the joy and satisfaction one receives when playing an instrument or listening to music and realizing individual progress (independent of external pressure or success and applause).
Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences.
What should a child create as it has not learnt the elements and basics of the language of music. If his parents are singing baby songs it might be to find out the tune on a keyboard or find out to play some triads. This will probably all. But now it will have to learn to reflect what it is playing and to understand the "grammar" of music and this happens most successful by systematic learning and training.
A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar
before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in
classical music education.
If your child has a music teacher at school who insists in systematically training you should be glad! But the will of learning must come from the side of the children. And this is increasing when they have the opportunity of joyful playing.
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4 Answers
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4 Answers
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There are probably a few reasons for this. First of all I agree with your point that, like a language, it makes sense to play and make up your own sentences before learning the formalities of grammar and spelling. I see music as a language and feel that kids are better off exploring before formal training.
Although we learn out first language the way you describe once we get older many people do better with a formal list of words and rules for grammar. I think you learn a new language faster this way because you now understand how the patterns of one language work and there is significant overlap, especially if the languages have a common root like Latin, Old German, Sanskrit etc.
But music is different so the analogy I just made may fail. I think the learning method you are asking about is most common in the western classical musical tradition. In this context one's future is most likely in an orchestral setting where sight reading and following a conductor is what gets you ahead. So if you take lessons in violin, oboe, etc, from a classical instructor this may be the path you are set on as that is the path they are on, and so on.
I should also point out that perhaps you question is a red herring. It does in fact depend on what you are calling "classical". The tradition in flamenco guitar (some might say its true intended cultural expression) would probably be more like your initial language example. This is the case in many other forms of ethnic folk music. You learn to play the instrument (no easy task) by learning simple tunes from a teacher or by ear and expand on that in time with more complex songs and techniques. Classical Indian music involve learning melodic patterns, Ragas, and rhythmic patterns, Taals. There is some form of written expression for instructing musicians how to play these, but not like in western music. I think the development of large choirs and orchestras required a standardization of notation across all instruments and a common method for getting everyone ready to play together. There isn't much room in a symphony for individual improv like there is in folk music, flamenco, Indian raga, etc.
add a comment
|
There are probably a few reasons for this. First of all I agree with your point that, like a language, it makes sense to play and make up your own sentences before learning the formalities of grammar and spelling. I see music as a language and feel that kids are better off exploring before formal training.
Although we learn out first language the way you describe once we get older many people do better with a formal list of words and rules for grammar. I think you learn a new language faster this way because you now understand how the patterns of one language work and there is significant overlap, especially if the languages have a common root like Latin, Old German, Sanskrit etc.
But music is different so the analogy I just made may fail. I think the learning method you are asking about is most common in the western classical musical tradition. In this context one's future is most likely in an orchestral setting where sight reading and following a conductor is what gets you ahead. So if you take lessons in violin, oboe, etc, from a classical instructor this may be the path you are set on as that is the path they are on, and so on.
I should also point out that perhaps you question is a red herring. It does in fact depend on what you are calling "classical". The tradition in flamenco guitar (some might say its true intended cultural expression) would probably be more like your initial language example. This is the case in many other forms of ethnic folk music. You learn to play the instrument (no easy task) by learning simple tunes from a teacher or by ear and expand on that in time with more complex songs and techniques. Classical Indian music involve learning melodic patterns, Ragas, and rhythmic patterns, Taals. There is some form of written expression for instructing musicians how to play these, but not like in western music. I think the development of large choirs and orchestras required a standardization of notation across all instruments and a common method for getting everyone ready to play together. There isn't much room in a symphony for individual improv like there is in folk music, flamenco, Indian raga, etc.
add a comment
|
There are probably a few reasons for this. First of all I agree with your point that, like a language, it makes sense to play and make up your own sentences before learning the formalities of grammar and spelling. I see music as a language and feel that kids are better off exploring before formal training.
Although we learn out first language the way you describe once we get older many people do better with a formal list of words and rules for grammar. I think you learn a new language faster this way because you now understand how the patterns of one language work and there is significant overlap, especially if the languages have a common root like Latin, Old German, Sanskrit etc.
But music is different so the analogy I just made may fail. I think the learning method you are asking about is most common in the western classical musical tradition. In this context one's future is most likely in an orchestral setting where sight reading and following a conductor is what gets you ahead. So if you take lessons in violin, oboe, etc, from a classical instructor this may be the path you are set on as that is the path they are on, and so on.
I should also point out that perhaps you question is a red herring. It does in fact depend on what you are calling "classical". The tradition in flamenco guitar (some might say its true intended cultural expression) would probably be more like your initial language example. This is the case in many other forms of ethnic folk music. You learn to play the instrument (no easy task) by learning simple tunes from a teacher or by ear and expand on that in time with more complex songs and techniques. Classical Indian music involve learning melodic patterns, Ragas, and rhythmic patterns, Taals. There is some form of written expression for instructing musicians how to play these, but not like in western music. I think the development of large choirs and orchestras required a standardization of notation across all instruments and a common method for getting everyone ready to play together. There isn't much room in a symphony for individual improv like there is in folk music, flamenco, Indian raga, etc.
There are probably a few reasons for this. First of all I agree with your point that, like a language, it makes sense to play and make up your own sentences before learning the formalities of grammar and spelling. I see music as a language and feel that kids are better off exploring before formal training.
Although we learn out first language the way you describe once we get older many people do better with a formal list of words and rules for grammar. I think you learn a new language faster this way because you now understand how the patterns of one language work and there is significant overlap, especially if the languages have a common root like Latin, Old German, Sanskrit etc.
But music is different so the analogy I just made may fail. I think the learning method you are asking about is most common in the western classical musical tradition. In this context one's future is most likely in an orchestral setting where sight reading and following a conductor is what gets you ahead. So if you take lessons in violin, oboe, etc, from a classical instructor this may be the path you are set on as that is the path they are on, and so on.
I should also point out that perhaps you question is a red herring. It does in fact depend on what you are calling "classical". The tradition in flamenco guitar (some might say its true intended cultural expression) would probably be more like your initial language example. This is the case in many other forms of ethnic folk music. You learn to play the instrument (no easy task) by learning simple tunes from a teacher or by ear and expand on that in time with more complex songs and techniques. Classical Indian music involve learning melodic patterns, Ragas, and rhythmic patterns, Taals. There is some form of written expression for instructing musicians how to play these, but not like in western music. I think the development of large choirs and orchestras required a standardization of notation across all instruments and a common method for getting everyone ready to play together. There isn't much room in a symphony for individual improv like there is in folk music, flamenco, Indian raga, etc.
answered 8 hours ago
ggcgggcg
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add a comment
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Language learning is innate* - everybody can do it & everybody learns the language to which they're first exposed without initial tuition.
Tuition comes years after first exposure & simple speech patterns.
By the time a child is 7, that initial language learning capability has diminished by factors. Learning a second language at 7 is possible, & still relatively easy compared to learning one at 18.
Music is taught somewhere between the 7 - 18 methods. Musical 'grammar' is not really taught until a basic grasp of "see the note, play the note" has been grasped.
Many people, conversely, are self-taught & come to the grammar later. This then needs to correspond more closely to the 18-year-old method, as a second language.
*If you want [much] more info on this read Noam Chomsky, or a much easier ride, Steven Pinker - The Language Instinct.
Unfortunately, not everyone can acquire a first language in the normal way. Infants who are impaired in any way related to hearing or speech may struggle their whole lives to learn a first language when their impairment prevented them from acquiring one in the usual way. But aside from those cases, yes language acquirement is a natural and mainly automatic process.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I thought I wouldn't unnecessarily complicate things. There are also people who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, though all that usually entails is them never doing more than a bit of painful [for everyone else] karaoke ;)
– Tetsujin
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
Language learning is innate* - everybody can do it & everybody learns the language to which they're first exposed without initial tuition.
Tuition comes years after first exposure & simple speech patterns.
By the time a child is 7, that initial language learning capability has diminished by factors. Learning a second language at 7 is possible, & still relatively easy compared to learning one at 18.
Music is taught somewhere between the 7 - 18 methods. Musical 'grammar' is not really taught until a basic grasp of "see the note, play the note" has been grasped.
Many people, conversely, are self-taught & come to the grammar later. This then needs to correspond more closely to the 18-year-old method, as a second language.
*If you want [much] more info on this read Noam Chomsky, or a much easier ride, Steven Pinker - The Language Instinct.
Unfortunately, not everyone can acquire a first language in the normal way. Infants who are impaired in any way related to hearing or speech may struggle their whole lives to learn a first language when their impairment prevented them from acquiring one in the usual way. But aside from those cases, yes language acquirement is a natural and mainly automatic process.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I thought I wouldn't unnecessarily complicate things. There are also people who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, though all that usually entails is them never doing more than a bit of painful [for everyone else] karaoke ;)
– Tetsujin
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
Language learning is innate* - everybody can do it & everybody learns the language to which they're first exposed without initial tuition.
Tuition comes years after first exposure & simple speech patterns.
By the time a child is 7, that initial language learning capability has diminished by factors. Learning a second language at 7 is possible, & still relatively easy compared to learning one at 18.
Music is taught somewhere between the 7 - 18 methods. Musical 'grammar' is not really taught until a basic grasp of "see the note, play the note" has been grasped.
Many people, conversely, are self-taught & come to the grammar later. This then needs to correspond more closely to the 18-year-old method, as a second language.
*If you want [much] more info on this read Noam Chomsky, or a much easier ride, Steven Pinker - The Language Instinct.
Language learning is innate* - everybody can do it & everybody learns the language to which they're first exposed without initial tuition.
Tuition comes years after first exposure & simple speech patterns.
By the time a child is 7, that initial language learning capability has diminished by factors. Learning a second language at 7 is possible, & still relatively easy compared to learning one at 18.
Music is taught somewhere between the 7 - 18 methods. Musical 'grammar' is not really taught until a basic grasp of "see the note, play the note" has been grasped.
Many people, conversely, are self-taught & come to the grammar later. This then needs to correspond more closely to the 18-year-old method, as a second language.
*If you want [much] more info on this read Noam Chomsky, or a much easier ride, Steven Pinker - The Language Instinct.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
TetsujinTetsujin
10.4k2 gold badges22 silver badges45 bronze badges
10.4k2 gold badges22 silver badges45 bronze badges
Unfortunately, not everyone can acquire a first language in the normal way. Infants who are impaired in any way related to hearing or speech may struggle their whole lives to learn a first language when their impairment prevented them from acquiring one in the usual way. But aside from those cases, yes language acquirement is a natural and mainly automatic process.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I thought I wouldn't unnecessarily complicate things. There are also people who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, though all that usually entails is them never doing more than a bit of painful [for everyone else] karaoke ;)
– Tetsujin
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
Unfortunately, not everyone can acquire a first language in the normal way. Infants who are impaired in any way related to hearing or speech may struggle their whole lives to learn a first language when their impairment prevented them from acquiring one in the usual way. But aside from those cases, yes language acquirement is a natural and mainly automatic process.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I thought I wouldn't unnecessarily complicate things. There are also people who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, though all that usually entails is them never doing more than a bit of painful [for everyone else] karaoke ;)
– Tetsujin
7 hours ago
Unfortunately, not everyone can acquire a first language in the normal way. Infants who are impaired in any way related to hearing or speech may struggle their whole lives to learn a first language when their impairment prevented them from acquiring one in the usual way. But aside from those cases, yes language acquirement is a natural and mainly automatic process.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
Unfortunately, not everyone can acquire a first language in the normal way. Infants who are impaired in any way related to hearing or speech may struggle their whole lives to learn a first language when their impairment prevented them from acquiring one in the usual way. But aside from those cases, yes language acquirement is a natural and mainly automatic process.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I thought I wouldn't unnecessarily complicate things. There are also people who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, though all that usually entails is them never doing more than a bit of painful [for everyone else] karaoke ;)
– Tetsujin
7 hours ago
I thought I wouldn't unnecessarily complicate things. There are also people who couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, though all that usually entails is them never doing more than a bit of painful [for everyone else] karaoke ;)
– Tetsujin
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
Classical music tradition has something of a separation between the activities of composition and performance, with the score as the 'interface' between the two functions.
Most of what you describe relates to learning to play. With traditional instruments and in the absence of computer/recording technology, it would be very hard to compose without some playing skills - and at the very least, without having a good enough understanding of the score to be able to write scores that other players understand. So it makes some sense for composition to be taught after a reasonable standard in performance has been attained.
You could imagine that people could just 'play to' each other in the absence of a score, in an improvisatory way - and of course that kind of tradition does exist, but is seen more as the folk music tradition, rather than the classical music tradition.
add a comment
|
Classical music tradition has something of a separation between the activities of composition and performance, with the score as the 'interface' between the two functions.
Most of what you describe relates to learning to play. With traditional instruments and in the absence of computer/recording technology, it would be very hard to compose without some playing skills - and at the very least, without having a good enough understanding of the score to be able to write scores that other players understand. So it makes some sense for composition to be taught after a reasonable standard in performance has been attained.
You could imagine that people could just 'play to' each other in the absence of a score, in an improvisatory way - and of course that kind of tradition does exist, but is seen more as the folk music tradition, rather than the classical music tradition.
add a comment
|
Classical music tradition has something of a separation between the activities of composition and performance, with the score as the 'interface' between the two functions.
Most of what you describe relates to learning to play. With traditional instruments and in the absence of computer/recording technology, it would be very hard to compose without some playing skills - and at the very least, without having a good enough understanding of the score to be able to write scores that other players understand. So it makes some sense for composition to be taught after a reasonable standard in performance has been attained.
You could imagine that people could just 'play to' each other in the absence of a score, in an improvisatory way - and of course that kind of tradition does exist, but is seen more as the folk music tradition, rather than the classical music tradition.
Classical music tradition has something of a separation between the activities of composition and performance, with the score as the 'interface' between the two functions.
Most of what you describe relates to learning to play. With traditional instruments and in the absence of computer/recording technology, it would be very hard to compose without some playing skills - and at the very least, without having a good enough understanding of the score to be able to write scores that other players understand. So it makes some sense for composition to be taught after a reasonable standard in performance has been attained.
You could imagine that people could just 'play to' each other in the absence of a score, in an improvisatory way - and of course that kind of tradition does exist, but is seen more as the folk music tradition, rather than the classical music tradition.
answered 7 hours ago
topo mortotopo morto
34.8k2 gold badges54 silver badges132 bronze badges
34.8k2 gold badges54 silver badges132 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
|
You can't compare music education (especially not the teaching of playing an instrument) with learning/teaching a language - even if music may be compared with a language.
It would be more appropriate to compare learning an instrument with learning to read and writing. Some children learn to read or write just by playing and discovering but most people learn it systematically and some even not then.
And even if most children have had 9 years of singing and reading at school they leave school as adult musical illiterates. But children who have been trained systematically in music and play an instrument are able to read music. This needs a lot of practice and especially motivation.
There have always been good musicians and artists who have learnt an instrument by themselves and with no lessons of systematic education: just by imitation, invention and listening to others. But many of them wouldn't have become composers or writers.
What you're probably mean is that a child would be more motivated to learn an instrument when it could just copy someone other and had more freedom in learning and playing like e.g. football. This chance is given today with all these apps and youtube videos. They can be very helpful and benefit - especially for motivation.
If this is your concern I would give you support. I've been music teacher and working with children all my life. And I know how important it is to find the right balance between drill/practice and relax/joy. (I don't write fun and I say: motivation is all! Intrinsic motivation: This means the joy and satisfaction one receives when playing an instrument or listening to music and realizing individual progress (independent of external pressure or success and applause).
Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences.
What should a child create as it has not learnt the elements and basics of the language of music. If his parents are singing baby songs it might be to find out the tune on a keyboard or find out to play some triads. This will probably all. But now it will have to learn to reflect what it is playing and to understand the "grammar" of music and this happens most successful by systematic learning and training.
A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar
before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in
classical music education.
If your child has a music teacher at school who insists in systematically training you should be glad! But the will of learning must come from the side of the children. And this is increasing when they have the opportunity of joyful playing.
add a comment
|
You can't compare music education (especially not the teaching of playing an instrument) with learning/teaching a language - even if music may be compared with a language.
It would be more appropriate to compare learning an instrument with learning to read and writing. Some children learn to read or write just by playing and discovering but most people learn it systematically and some even not then.
And even if most children have had 9 years of singing and reading at school they leave school as adult musical illiterates. But children who have been trained systematically in music and play an instrument are able to read music. This needs a lot of practice and especially motivation.
There have always been good musicians and artists who have learnt an instrument by themselves and with no lessons of systematic education: just by imitation, invention and listening to others. But many of them wouldn't have become composers or writers.
What you're probably mean is that a child would be more motivated to learn an instrument when it could just copy someone other and had more freedom in learning and playing like e.g. football. This chance is given today with all these apps and youtube videos. They can be very helpful and benefit - especially for motivation.
If this is your concern I would give you support. I've been music teacher and working with children all my life. And I know how important it is to find the right balance between drill/practice and relax/joy. (I don't write fun and I say: motivation is all! Intrinsic motivation: This means the joy and satisfaction one receives when playing an instrument or listening to music and realizing individual progress (independent of external pressure or success and applause).
Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences.
What should a child create as it has not learnt the elements and basics of the language of music. If his parents are singing baby songs it might be to find out the tune on a keyboard or find out to play some triads. This will probably all. But now it will have to learn to reflect what it is playing and to understand the "grammar" of music and this happens most successful by systematic learning and training.
A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar
before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in
classical music education.
If your child has a music teacher at school who insists in systematically training you should be glad! But the will of learning must come from the side of the children. And this is increasing when they have the opportunity of joyful playing.
add a comment
|
You can't compare music education (especially not the teaching of playing an instrument) with learning/teaching a language - even if music may be compared with a language.
It would be more appropriate to compare learning an instrument with learning to read and writing. Some children learn to read or write just by playing and discovering but most people learn it systematically and some even not then.
And even if most children have had 9 years of singing and reading at school they leave school as adult musical illiterates. But children who have been trained systematically in music and play an instrument are able to read music. This needs a lot of practice and especially motivation.
There have always been good musicians and artists who have learnt an instrument by themselves and with no lessons of systematic education: just by imitation, invention and listening to others. But many of them wouldn't have become composers or writers.
What you're probably mean is that a child would be more motivated to learn an instrument when it could just copy someone other and had more freedom in learning and playing like e.g. football. This chance is given today with all these apps and youtube videos. They can be very helpful and benefit - especially for motivation.
If this is your concern I would give you support. I've been music teacher and working with children all my life. And I know how important it is to find the right balance between drill/practice and relax/joy. (I don't write fun and I say: motivation is all! Intrinsic motivation: This means the joy and satisfaction one receives when playing an instrument or listening to music and realizing individual progress (independent of external pressure or success and applause).
Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences.
What should a child create as it has not learnt the elements and basics of the language of music. If his parents are singing baby songs it might be to find out the tune on a keyboard or find out to play some triads. This will probably all. But now it will have to learn to reflect what it is playing and to understand the "grammar" of music and this happens most successful by systematic learning and training.
A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar
before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in
classical music education.
If your child has a music teacher at school who insists in systematically training you should be glad! But the will of learning must come from the side of the children. And this is increasing when they have the opportunity of joyful playing.
You can't compare music education (especially not the teaching of playing an instrument) with learning/teaching a language - even if music may be compared with a language.
It would be more appropriate to compare learning an instrument with learning to read and writing. Some children learn to read or write just by playing and discovering but most people learn it systematically and some even not then.
And even if most children have had 9 years of singing and reading at school they leave school as adult musical illiterates. But children who have been trained systematically in music and play an instrument are able to read music. This needs a lot of practice and especially motivation.
There have always been good musicians and artists who have learnt an instrument by themselves and with no lessons of systematic education: just by imitation, invention and listening to others. But many of them wouldn't have become composers or writers.
What you're probably mean is that a child would be more motivated to learn an instrument when it could just copy someone other and had more freedom in learning and playing like e.g. football. This chance is given today with all these apps and youtube videos. They can be very helpful and benefit - especially for motivation.
If this is your concern I would give you support. I've been music teacher and working with children all my life. And I know how important it is to find the right balance between drill/practice and relax/joy. (I don't write fun and I say: motivation is all! Intrinsic motivation: This means the joy and satisfaction one receives when playing an instrument or listening to music and realizing individual progress (independent of external pressure or success and applause).
Actually, you must learn to arrange or create your own music like the children who create their own sentences.
What should a child create as it has not learnt the elements and basics of the language of music. If his parents are singing baby songs it might be to find out the tune on a keyboard or find out to play some triads. This will probably all. But now it will have to learn to reflect what it is playing and to understand the "grammar" of music and this happens most successful by systematic learning and training.
A child doesn't wait until he goes to school and are taught grammar
before creating his/her own sentences but this how it happens in
classical music education.
If your child has a music teacher at school who insists in systematically training you should be glad! But the will of learning must come from the side of the children. And this is increasing when they have the opportunity of joyful playing.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,9531 gold badge8 silver badges27 bronze badges
7,9531 gold badge8 silver badges27 bronze badges
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add a comment
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First there is not one single method of teaching music. There are different schools and every teacher can teach his own way and style. Then you can't compare everyday learning with learning in school. This happens moment by moment, studying is systematically. There are parallels of music education and learning a language. As a child learns to speak needs to develop the basic functions speaking, writing and reading. The same in music education. Learning to play an instrument can go different ways. It can be by discovering and improvising or systematically ( learning rules of grammar).
– Albrecht Hügli
8 hours ago
1
I dated a linguist once who specialized in language acquirement. The mental process by which children acquire their first language is, as far as we know, unique to language acquirement. It is not possible to teach a second language to a person who is older than about three years old in the same way children acquire their first language. Therefore, it’s even more impossible to teach anything else that same way.
– Todd Wilcox
7 hours ago
I think all the answers are in the same direction: accidental learning versus systematical teaching. What we should keep in mind : Not everyone is learning music to become a composer or an orchestra musician. Most of us would like to enjoy music playing as a sense full hobby.
– Albrecht Hügli
6 hours ago
From my experience listening to music on Musescore.com, it's shockingly hard to write decent music without prior education. I suspect this is why children are not allowed the equivalent of "creating their own sentences" until they ask to do so.
– Dekkadeci
1 hour ago
The Suzuki Method is based on that you learn to play similar to the way you learn to speak, so you play before you read. Many classical musicians started that way. But it requires a strong active participation from the parents and it is for children at pre school age. Children starting when they are in school age will want to be less dependent on their parents' active participation in the lessons, which means the students must be able to relate to the reference material themselves which again means ability to read music becomes a natural part of the learning process.
– Lars Peter Schultz
31 mins ago