Did the Soviet army intentionally send troops (e.g. penal battalions) running over minefields?What was the reason for Soviet troops to withdraw from Yugoslavia in World War II?Did the Soviet Union know when DEFCON levels changed?Is this true that the Soviet Army soldiers had no helmets in the beginning of WW2?Given their reputation for fighting to the last man in the Pacific, why did 700,000 Japanese troops surrender in Manchuria?What happened to US's Lend-Lease machinery given to the Soviet Union?In France, 1916, would a soldier who was invalided out of the army, e.g. as an amputee, still get his army pay?Did the Red Army and German Army clash in Poland in 1939?Did the Soviet Union hand over thousands of Jews to the Nazis in the spirit of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact?Did USS Buck (DD-761) send the message “Temper, Temper”?How many troops did Hitler send back from the Eastern front to face the Allies' assault?
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Did the Soviet army intentionally send troops (e.g. penal battalions) running over minefields?
What was the reason for Soviet troops to withdraw from Yugoslavia in World War II?Did the Soviet Union know when DEFCON levels changed?Is this true that the Soviet Army soldiers had no helmets in the beginning of WW2?Given their reputation for fighting to the last man in the Pacific, why did 700,000 Japanese troops surrender in Manchuria?What happened to US's Lend-Lease machinery given to the Soviet Union?In France, 1916, would a soldier who was invalided out of the army, e.g. as an amputee, still get his army pay?Did the Red Army and German Army clash in Poland in 1939?Did the Soviet Union hand over thousands of Jews to the Nazis in the spirit of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact?Did USS Buck (DD-761) send the message “Temper, Temper”?How many troops did Hitler send back from the Eastern front to face the Allies' assault?
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You can hear this story/claim stated in various way, from just regular troops doing it, to just penal battalions, to strenuous denial nobody ever did this in the Soviet army. (Just look at a Quora thread.)
So what sources do we have (besides that story Zhukov supposedly told Eisenhower) on this issue?
I suspect sources covering Soviet penal battalions are closest to being relevant, because Wikipedia's article on the latter says
the penal battalions usually advanced in a frenzy, running forwards until they were killed by enemy minefields, artillery, or heavy machine-gun fire.
It does cite a book for this (Suvorov, Viktor, Inside The Soviet Army, Hamish Hamilton (1982), ISBN 0-241-10889-6), but not a precise page therein. Given the general scope of the book, I'm not convinced it has more details on this issue.
world-war-two military soviet-union
add a comment
|
You can hear this story/claim stated in various way, from just regular troops doing it, to just penal battalions, to strenuous denial nobody ever did this in the Soviet army. (Just look at a Quora thread.)
So what sources do we have (besides that story Zhukov supposedly told Eisenhower) on this issue?
I suspect sources covering Soviet penal battalions are closest to being relevant, because Wikipedia's article on the latter says
the penal battalions usually advanced in a frenzy, running forwards until they were killed by enemy minefields, artillery, or heavy machine-gun fire.
It does cite a book for this (Suvorov, Viktor, Inside The Soviet Army, Hamish Hamilton (1982), ISBN 0-241-10889-6), but not a precise page therein. Given the general scope of the book, I'm not convinced it has more details on this issue.
world-war-two military soviet-union
add a comment
|
You can hear this story/claim stated in various way, from just regular troops doing it, to just penal battalions, to strenuous denial nobody ever did this in the Soviet army. (Just look at a Quora thread.)
So what sources do we have (besides that story Zhukov supposedly told Eisenhower) on this issue?
I suspect sources covering Soviet penal battalions are closest to being relevant, because Wikipedia's article on the latter says
the penal battalions usually advanced in a frenzy, running forwards until they were killed by enemy minefields, artillery, or heavy machine-gun fire.
It does cite a book for this (Suvorov, Viktor, Inside The Soviet Army, Hamish Hamilton (1982), ISBN 0-241-10889-6), but not a precise page therein. Given the general scope of the book, I'm not convinced it has more details on this issue.
world-war-two military soviet-union
You can hear this story/claim stated in various way, from just regular troops doing it, to just penal battalions, to strenuous denial nobody ever did this in the Soviet army. (Just look at a Quora thread.)
So what sources do we have (besides that story Zhukov supposedly told Eisenhower) on this issue?
I suspect sources covering Soviet penal battalions are closest to being relevant, because Wikipedia's article on the latter says
the penal battalions usually advanced in a frenzy, running forwards until they were killed by enemy minefields, artillery, or heavy machine-gun fire.
It does cite a book for this (Suvorov, Viktor, Inside The Soviet Army, Hamish Hamilton (1982), ISBN 0-241-10889-6), but not a precise page therein. Given the general scope of the book, I'm not convinced it has more details on this issue.
world-war-two military soviet-union
world-war-two military soviet-union
edited 7 hours ago
Fizz
asked 10 hours ago
FizzFizz
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There are a few recorded instances of Soviet penal troops being intentionally sent over mines, at least according to survivors:
It is hard to judge
whether there was a deliberate sacrifice of penal soldiers, but Pyl’tsyn describes how
Batov, commander of the army to which his penal battalion was attached,
deliberately sent its soldiers—all of them temporarily demoted officers—across a
minefield, where they suffered 80% casualties. Pyl’tsyn, who also advanced across the
minefield but survived without a scratch, regarded this order as criminal and claims
that tanks with ploughs for making passages in the minefield were actually available.
The survivors of this action were not pardoned because Batov would not release an
uninjured soldier from a penal unit. Significantly, Pyl’tsyn does not reproach his
superiors for a mission in which the penal company he commanded spearheaded the
attack across the Oder River. Only four men survived without injury by the time they
had captured the bridgehead, while Pyl’tsyn himself was gravely wounded in the head.
Quoted from: Alex Statiev, "Penal Units in the Red Army", Europe-Asia Studies, 62:5,
721-747
The full name of the soldier is Aleksandr Pyl’tsyn, and the story is cited to his memoirs in Russian:
- Pyl’tsyn, A. (2003) Shtrafnoi udar ili kak ofitserskii shtrafbat doshel do Berlina (St Petersburg, Znanie).
"Batov" refers to the commander of the 65th Army, Pavel Batov.
I'm not sure if there are other stories corroborating something like this.
2
It would worth to mention if we read the whole story in Pal'tsyn's book )ref: , sorry no idea if it was ever translated to Eng.) it won't appear that simple. For instance Pal'tsyn mentions that a few hours before the attack a they sent a sappers team to demine the field (if there're any mines). In an hour the team returned and reported there're no mines ahead.
– seven-phases-max
8 hours ago
1
@seven-phases-max: Interesting. Statiev's article is citing quite a few other pages from that book for other issues, so it doesn't look like he didn't read it more of it.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
3
Pal'tsyn mentions that later, colonel Baturin (at the time a lower commander under Batov) confessed they do it (reported no mines) intentionally by Batov's order. And then (in the book) come complected Pal'tsyn's thoughts and ideas on who's order it actually could be (Batov? Baturin? Someone else? Was such an order at all?). Pal'tsyn concludes that most likely it was Batov basing on an after war Batov 's person characteristics read in other memoires, but states it was not something he thought to deep of in 1945. That's it.
– seven-phases-max
7 hours ago
2
@seven-phases-max: it looks like the book was translated in English. amazon.com/Penalty-Strike-Memoirs-Commander-Memories-ebook/dp/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
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There are a few recorded instances of Soviet penal troops being intentionally sent over mines, at least according to survivors:
It is hard to judge
whether there was a deliberate sacrifice of penal soldiers, but Pyl’tsyn describes how
Batov, commander of the army to which his penal battalion was attached,
deliberately sent its soldiers—all of them temporarily demoted officers—across a
minefield, where they suffered 80% casualties. Pyl’tsyn, who also advanced across the
minefield but survived without a scratch, regarded this order as criminal and claims
that tanks with ploughs for making passages in the minefield were actually available.
The survivors of this action were not pardoned because Batov would not release an
uninjured soldier from a penal unit. Significantly, Pyl’tsyn does not reproach his
superiors for a mission in which the penal company he commanded spearheaded the
attack across the Oder River. Only four men survived without injury by the time they
had captured the bridgehead, while Pyl’tsyn himself was gravely wounded in the head.
Quoted from: Alex Statiev, "Penal Units in the Red Army", Europe-Asia Studies, 62:5,
721-747
The full name of the soldier is Aleksandr Pyl’tsyn, and the story is cited to his memoirs in Russian:
- Pyl’tsyn, A. (2003) Shtrafnoi udar ili kak ofitserskii shtrafbat doshel do Berlina (St Petersburg, Znanie).
"Batov" refers to the commander of the 65th Army, Pavel Batov.
I'm not sure if there are other stories corroborating something like this.
2
It would worth to mention if we read the whole story in Pal'tsyn's book )ref: , sorry no idea if it was ever translated to Eng.) it won't appear that simple. For instance Pal'tsyn mentions that a few hours before the attack a they sent a sappers team to demine the field (if there're any mines). In an hour the team returned and reported there're no mines ahead.
– seven-phases-max
8 hours ago
1
@seven-phases-max: Interesting. Statiev's article is citing quite a few other pages from that book for other issues, so it doesn't look like he didn't read it more of it.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
3
Pal'tsyn mentions that later, colonel Baturin (at the time a lower commander under Batov) confessed they do it (reported no mines) intentionally by Batov's order. And then (in the book) come complected Pal'tsyn's thoughts and ideas on who's order it actually could be (Batov? Baturin? Someone else? Was such an order at all?). Pal'tsyn concludes that most likely it was Batov basing on an after war Batov 's person characteristics read in other memoires, but states it was not something he thought to deep of in 1945. That's it.
– seven-phases-max
7 hours ago
2
@seven-phases-max: it looks like the book was translated in English. amazon.com/Penalty-Strike-Memoirs-Commander-Memories-ebook/dp/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
There are a few recorded instances of Soviet penal troops being intentionally sent over mines, at least according to survivors:
It is hard to judge
whether there was a deliberate sacrifice of penal soldiers, but Pyl’tsyn describes how
Batov, commander of the army to which his penal battalion was attached,
deliberately sent its soldiers—all of them temporarily demoted officers—across a
minefield, where they suffered 80% casualties. Pyl’tsyn, who also advanced across the
minefield but survived without a scratch, regarded this order as criminal and claims
that tanks with ploughs for making passages in the minefield were actually available.
The survivors of this action were not pardoned because Batov would not release an
uninjured soldier from a penal unit. Significantly, Pyl’tsyn does not reproach his
superiors for a mission in which the penal company he commanded spearheaded the
attack across the Oder River. Only four men survived without injury by the time they
had captured the bridgehead, while Pyl’tsyn himself was gravely wounded in the head.
Quoted from: Alex Statiev, "Penal Units in the Red Army", Europe-Asia Studies, 62:5,
721-747
The full name of the soldier is Aleksandr Pyl’tsyn, and the story is cited to his memoirs in Russian:
- Pyl’tsyn, A. (2003) Shtrafnoi udar ili kak ofitserskii shtrafbat doshel do Berlina (St Petersburg, Znanie).
"Batov" refers to the commander of the 65th Army, Pavel Batov.
I'm not sure if there are other stories corroborating something like this.
2
It would worth to mention if we read the whole story in Pal'tsyn's book )ref: , sorry no idea if it was ever translated to Eng.) it won't appear that simple. For instance Pal'tsyn mentions that a few hours before the attack a they sent a sappers team to demine the field (if there're any mines). In an hour the team returned and reported there're no mines ahead.
– seven-phases-max
8 hours ago
1
@seven-phases-max: Interesting. Statiev's article is citing quite a few other pages from that book for other issues, so it doesn't look like he didn't read it more of it.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
3
Pal'tsyn mentions that later, colonel Baturin (at the time a lower commander under Batov) confessed they do it (reported no mines) intentionally by Batov's order. And then (in the book) come complected Pal'tsyn's thoughts and ideas on who's order it actually could be (Batov? Baturin? Someone else? Was such an order at all?). Pal'tsyn concludes that most likely it was Batov basing on an after war Batov 's person characteristics read in other memoires, but states it was not something he thought to deep of in 1945. That's it.
– seven-phases-max
7 hours ago
2
@seven-phases-max: it looks like the book was translated in English. amazon.com/Penalty-Strike-Memoirs-Commander-Memories-ebook/dp/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
There are a few recorded instances of Soviet penal troops being intentionally sent over mines, at least according to survivors:
It is hard to judge
whether there was a deliberate sacrifice of penal soldiers, but Pyl’tsyn describes how
Batov, commander of the army to which his penal battalion was attached,
deliberately sent its soldiers—all of them temporarily demoted officers—across a
minefield, where they suffered 80% casualties. Pyl’tsyn, who also advanced across the
minefield but survived without a scratch, regarded this order as criminal and claims
that tanks with ploughs for making passages in the minefield were actually available.
The survivors of this action were not pardoned because Batov would not release an
uninjured soldier from a penal unit. Significantly, Pyl’tsyn does not reproach his
superiors for a mission in which the penal company he commanded spearheaded the
attack across the Oder River. Only four men survived without injury by the time they
had captured the bridgehead, while Pyl’tsyn himself was gravely wounded in the head.
Quoted from: Alex Statiev, "Penal Units in the Red Army", Europe-Asia Studies, 62:5,
721-747
The full name of the soldier is Aleksandr Pyl’tsyn, and the story is cited to his memoirs in Russian:
- Pyl’tsyn, A. (2003) Shtrafnoi udar ili kak ofitserskii shtrafbat doshel do Berlina (St Petersburg, Znanie).
"Batov" refers to the commander of the 65th Army, Pavel Batov.
I'm not sure if there are other stories corroborating something like this.
There are a few recorded instances of Soviet penal troops being intentionally sent over mines, at least according to survivors:
It is hard to judge
whether there was a deliberate sacrifice of penal soldiers, but Pyl’tsyn describes how
Batov, commander of the army to which his penal battalion was attached,
deliberately sent its soldiers—all of them temporarily demoted officers—across a
minefield, where they suffered 80% casualties. Pyl’tsyn, who also advanced across the
minefield but survived without a scratch, regarded this order as criminal and claims
that tanks with ploughs for making passages in the minefield were actually available.
The survivors of this action were not pardoned because Batov would not release an
uninjured soldier from a penal unit. Significantly, Pyl’tsyn does not reproach his
superiors for a mission in which the penal company he commanded spearheaded the
attack across the Oder River. Only four men survived without injury by the time they
had captured the bridgehead, while Pyl’tsyn himself was gravely wounded in the head.
Quoted from: Alex Statiev, "Penal Units in the Red Army", Europe-Asia Studies, 62:5,
721-747
The full name of the soldier is Aleksandr Pyl’tsyn, and the story is cited to his memoirs in Russian:
- Pyl’tsyn, A. (2003) Shtrafnoi udar ili kak ofitserskii shtrafbat doshel do Berlina (St Petersburg, Znanie).
"Batov" refers to the commander of the 65th Army, Pavel Batov.
I'm not sure if there are other stories corroborating something like this.
edited 8 hours ago
WiJaMa
1471 silver badge10 bronze badges
1471 silver badge10 bronze badges
answered 10 hours ago
FizzFizz
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1,4031 gold badge6 silver badges21 bronze badges
2
It would worth to mention if we read the whole story in Pal'tsyn's book )ref: , sorry no idea if it was ever translated to Eng.) it won't appear that simple. For instance Pal'tsyn mentions that a few hours before the attack a they sent a sappers team to demine the field (if there're any mines). In an hour the team returned and reported there're no mines ahead.
– seven-phases-max
8 hours ago
1
@seven-phases-max: Interesting. Statiev's article is citing quite a few other pages from that book for other issues, so it doesn't look like he didn't read it more of it.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
3
Pal'tsyn mentions that later, colonel Baturin (at the time a lower commander under Batov) confessed they do it (reported no mines) intentionally by Batov's order. And then (in the book) come complected Pal'tsyn's thoughts and ideas on who's order it actually could be (Batov? Baturin? Someone else? Was such an order at all?). Pal'tsyn concludes that most likely it was Batov basing on an after war Batov 's person characteristics read in other memoires, but states it was not something he thought to deep of in 1945. That's it.
– seven-phases-max
7 hours ago
2
@seven-phases-max: it looks like the book was translated in English. amazon.com/Penalty-Strike-Memoirs-Commander-Memories-ebook/dp/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
2
It would worth to mention if we read the whole story in Pal'tsyn's book )ref: , sorry no idea if it was ever translated to Eng.) it won't appear that simple. For instance Pal'tsyn mentions that a few hours before the attack a they sent a sappers team to demine the field (if there're any mines). In an hour the team returned and reported there're no mines ahead.
– seven-phases-max
8 hours ago
1
@seven-phases-max: Interesting. Statiev's article is citing quite a few other pages from that book for other issues, so it doesn't look like he didn't read it more of it.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
3
Pal'tsyn mentions that later, colonel Baturin (at the time a lower commander under Batov) confessed they do it (reported no mines) intentionally by Batov's order. And then (in the book) come complected Pal'tsyn's thoughts and ideas on who's order it actually could be (Batov? Baturin? Someone else? Was such an order at all?). Pal'tsyn concludes that most likely it was Batov basing on an after war Batov 's person characteristics read in other memoires, but states it was not something he thought to deep of in 1945. That's it.
– seven-phases-max
7 hours ago
2
@seven-phases-max: it looks like the book was translated in English. amazon.com/Penalty-Strike-Memoirs-Commander-Memories-ebook/dp/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
2
2
It would worth to mention if we read the whole story in Pal'tsyn's book )ref: , sorry no idea if it was ever translated to Eng.) it won't appear that simple. For instance Pal'tsyn mentions that a few hours before the attack a they sent a sappers team to demine the field (if there're any mines). In an hour the team returned and reported there're no mines ahead.
– seven-phases-max
8 hours ago
It would worth to mention if we read the whole story in Pal'tsyn's book )ref: , sorry no idea if it was ever translated to Eng.) it won't appear that simple. For instance Pal'tsyn mentions that a few hours before the attack a they sent a sappers team to demine the field (if there're any mines). In an hour the team returned and reported there're no mines ahead.
– seven-phases-max
8 hours ago
1
1
@seven-phases-max: Interesting. Statiev's article is citing quite a few other pages from that book for other issues, so it doesn't look like he didn't read it more of it.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
@seven-phases-max: Interesting. Statiev's article is citing quite a few other pages from that book for other issues, so it doesn't look like he didn't read it more of it.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
3
3
Pal'tsyn mentions that later, colonel Baturin (at the time a lower commander under Batov) confessed they do it (reported no mines) intentionally by Batov's order. And then (in the book) come complected Pal'tsyn's thoughts and ideas on who's order it actually could be (Batov? Baturin? Someone else? Was such an order at all?). Pal'tsyn concludes that most likely it was Batov basing on an after war Batov 's person characteristics read in other memoires, but states it was not something he thought to deep of in 1945. That's it.
– seven-phases-max
7 hours ago
Pal'tsyn mentions that later, colonel Baturin (at the time a lower commander under Batov) confessed they do it (reported no mines) intentionally by Batov's order. And then (in the book) come complected Pal'tsyn's thoughts and ideas on who's order it actually could be (Batov? Baturin? Someone else? Was such an order at all?). Pal'tsyn concludes that most likely it was Batov basing on an after war Batov 's person characteristics read in other memoires, but states it was not something he thought to deep of in 1945. That's it.
– seven-phases-max
7 hours ago
2
2
@seven-phases-max: it looks like the book was translated in English. amazon.com/Penalty-Strike-Memoirs-Commander-Memories-ebook/dp/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
@seven-phases-max: it looks like the book was translated in English. amazon.com/Penalty-Strike-Memoirs-Commander-Memories-ebook/dp/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
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