When did Bilbo and Frodo learn that Gandalf was a Maia?Who in Middle-earth knows the Istari's origin?Why does Gandalf say “the West that is forgotten”?Saruman in the Shire: how long had he been planning it?Why does Saruman identify himself as a human?How did Gandalf elude and puzzle Sauron?Why Gandalf did not take Frodo and the One Ring to Rivendell immediately after he examined it?Was Bilbo Baggins an actual burglar?Who accompanied Gandalf and the hobbits on their journey towards the Shire near the end of Return of the King?Do the dwarves know what a “hobbit” is?How old did Gandalf appear to be when he came to Middle Earth?When was Bilbo first considered to be an unusual hobbit?Why did it take less time to go from Rivendell to the Shire than it did to go from the Shire to Rivendell?
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When did Bilbo and Frodo learn that Gandalf was a Maia?
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When did Bilbo and Frodo learn that Gandalf was a Maia?
Who in Middle-earth knows the Istari's origin?Why does Gandalf say “the West that is forgotten”?Saruman in the Shire: how long had he been planning it?Why does Saruman identify himself as a human?How did Gandalf elude and puzzle Sauron?Why Gandalf did not take Frodo and the One Ring to Rivendell immediately after he examined it?Was Bilbo Baggins an actual burglar?Who accompanied Gandalf and the hobbits on their journey towards the Shire near the end of Return of the King?Do the dwarves know what a “hobbit” is?How old did Gandalf appear to be when he came to Middle Earth?When was Bilbo first considered to be an unusual hobbit?Why did it take less time to go from Rivendell to the Shire than it did to go from the Shire to Rivendell?
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It is obvious that the common Hobbits (and men) knew nothing of the true nature of the Istari. When the Istari arrived in Middle-earth they were considered "strange elves" (as a matter of fact, Gandalf means "staff elf") or "strange men", wise, long-lived and mysterious, but the treatment that Barliman Butterbur or Denethor gave to Gandalf would have been very different from that which he actually received had it been known that he was a Maia.
But it is clear from the book that Frodo knew the true nature of Gandalf and Saruman. When the Scourging of the Shire, he refers to Saruman as:
someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
Is there any passage from Tolkien's books, or other writings, that allows us to know when this was revealed to Frodo (or Bilbo)?
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings maiar
|
show 3 more comments
It is obvious that the common Hobbits (and men) knew nothing of the true nature of the Istari. When the Istari arrived in Middle-earth they were considered "strange elves" (as a matter of fact, Gandalf means "staff elf") or "strange men", wise, long-lived and mysterious, but the treatment that Barliman Butterbur or Denethor gave to Gandalf would have been very different from that which he actually received had it been known that he was a Maia.
But it is clear from the book that Frodo knew the true nature of Gandalf and Saruman. When the Scourging of the Shire, he refers to Saruman as:
someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
Is there any passage from Tolkien's books, or other writings, that allows us to know when this was revealed to Frodo (or Bilbo)?
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings maiar
5
What makes you think he didn't just consider wizards a "race" unto themselves,without knowing why they were as they were?
– Zeiss Ikon
8 hours ago
1
"Barleyman" -> "Barliman (Butterbur)".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
@ZeissIkon Frodo is ostensibly the narrator of most of what happened in LoTR, so in the Red Book of the Westmarch he wrote down both the Silmarillion's mention of Olórin, as well as Gandalf's own statement that he was once called Olórin "in his youth in the West".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
@BinaryWorrier But hobbits sometimes faced men violently in the past. In the same years of the Lord of the Rings, Bree's hobbits and men drove out the evil southern men.
– Ginasius
8 hours ago
1
Note also the passage in RotK where Pippin suddenly wonders how much older Gandalf is than Denethor, and where he came from.
– Daniel Roseman
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
It is obvious that the common Hobbits (and men) knew nothing of the true nature of the Istari. When the Istari arrived in Middle-earth they were considered "strange elves" (as a matter of fact, Gandalf means "staff elf") or "strange men", wise, long-lived and mysterious, but the treatment that Barliman Butterbur or Denethor gave to Gandalf would have been very different from that which he actually received had it been known that he was a Maia.
But it is clear from the book that Frodo knew the true nature of Gandalf and Saruman. When the Scourging of the Shire, he refers to Saruman as:
someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
Is there any passage from Tolkien's books, or other writings, that allows us to know when this was revealed to Frodo (or Bilbo)?
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings maiar
It is obvious that the common Hobbits (and men) knew nothing of the true nature of the Istari. When the Istari arrived in Middle-earth they were considered "strange elves" (as a matter of fact, Gandalf means "staff elf") or "strange men", wise, long-lived and mysterious, but the treatment that Barliman Butterbur or Denethor gave to Gandalf would have been very different from that which he actually received had it been known that he was a Maia.
But it is clear from the book that Frodo knew the true nature of Gandalf and Saruman. When the Scourging of the Shire, he refers to Saruman as:
someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
Is there any passage from Tolkien's books, or other writings, that allows us to know when this was revealed to Frodo (or Bilbo)?
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings maiar
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings maiar
edited 8 hours ago
Spencer
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1,2071 gold badge7 silver badges22 bronze badges
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5
What makes you think he didn't just consider wizards a "race" unto themselves,without knowing why they were as they were?
– Zeiss Ikon
8 hours ago
1
"Barleyman" -> "Barliman (Butterbur)".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
@ZeissIkon Frodo is ostensibly the narrator of most of what happened in LoTR, so in the Red Book of the Westmarch he wrote down both the Silmarillion's mention of Olórin, as well as Gandalf's own statement that he was once called Olórin "in his youth in the West".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
@BinaryWorrier But hobbits sometimes faced men violently in the past. In the same years of the Lord of the Rings, Bree's hobbits and men drove out the evil southern men.
– Ginasius
8 hours ago
1
Note also the passage in RotK where Pippin suddenly wonders how much older Gandalf is than Denethor, and where he came from.
– Daniel Roseman
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
5
What makes you think he didn't just consider wizards a "race" unto themselves,without knowing why they were as they were?
– Zeiss Ikon
8 hours ago
1
"Barleyman" -> "Barliman (Butterbur)".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
@ZeissIkon Frodo is ostensibly the narrator of most of what happened in LoTR, so in the Red Book of the Westmarch he wrote down both the Silmarillion's mention of Olórin, as well as Gandalf's own statement that he was once called Olórin "in his youth in the West".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
@BinaryWorrier But hobbits sometimes faced men violently in the past. In the same years of the Lord of the Rings, Bree's hobbits and men drove out the evil southern men.
– Ginasius
8 hours ago
1
Note also the passage in RotK where Pippin suddenly wonders how much older Gandalf is than Denethor, and where he came from.
– Daniel Roseman
7 hours ago
5
5
What makes you think he didn't just consider wizards a "race" unto themselves,without knowing why they were as they were?
– Zeiss Ikon
8 hours ago
What makes you think he didn't just consider wizards a "race" unto themselves,without knowing why they were as they were?
– Zeiss Ikon
8 hours ago
1
1
"Barleyman" -> "Barliman (Butterbur)".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
"Barleyman" -> "Barliman (Butterbur)".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
1
@ZeissIkon Frodo is ostensibly the narrator of most of what happened in LoTR, so in the Red Book of the Westmarch he wrote down both the Silmarillion's mention of Olórin, as well as Gandalf's own statement that he was once called Olórin "in his youth in the West".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
@ZeissIkon Frodo is ostensibly the narrator of most of what happened in LoTR, so in the Red Book of the Westmarch he wrote down both the Silmarillion's mention of Olórin, as well as Gandalf's own statement that he was once called Olórin "in his youth in the West".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
1
@BinaryWorrier But hobbits sometimes faced men violently in the past. In the same years of the Lord of the Rings, Bree's hobbits and men drove out the evil southern men.
– Ginasius
8 hours ago
@BinaryWorrier But hobbits sometimes faced men violently in the past. In the same years of the Lord of the Rings, Bree's hobbits and men drove out the evil southern men.
– Ginasius
8 hours ago
1
1
Note also the passage in RotK where Pippin suddenly wonders how much older Gandalf is than Denethor, and where he came from.
– Daniel Roseman
7 hours ago
Note also the passage in RotK where Pippin suddenly wonders how much older Gandalf is than Denethor, and where he came from.
– Daniel Roseman
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
It is unclear whether anyone even knew Gandalf was a Maia
...save Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel themselves. Tolkien says this in the Unfinished Tales:
Wizard is a translation of Quenya Istar: one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
Which would make sense. The Istari came in secret to Middle-earth, and no one (save the aforementioned trio) found out about that. And you may wonder how these three found out, when the Istari didn't tell anyone about their past.
Cirdan
The easiest to explain. He's the guy who's in charge of the Grey Havens, and is one of the wisest (and oldest) of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth. It's clear Cirdan saw what Gandalf was, as he gives him Narya, one of the 3 Elven Rings - themselves being 3 out of the 20 Rings of Power - when Gandalf first arrives in Middle-earth (which is in itself a tell-tale sign of where he came from).
"Take this ring, Master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
― Círdan, Appendix BElrond
Another one of the wisest Elves in Middle-earth, it's likely he knew of what Gandalf (and the Istari were) from perception. He's the son of Earendil, the only Man ever admitted into Valinor (and lives to tell the tale), and he's been around for 3 Ages. He's also the bearer of Vilya, one of the 3 Elven Rings, and this connection may have given him insight of what Gandalf was.
Galadriel
Similar to Elrond, and Cirdan, Galadriel has lived in Middle-earth for 3 Ages, and she's far older than Elrond. The bearer of Nenya, and also wise enough to discern the nature of Gandalf and the other Istari.
Addressing your quote:
[...] someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
The Istari were known as Wizards to everyone in Middle-earth. I do not believe Frodo knew exactly that Gandalf was a Maia, just that he was of a nobler race than the Elves, Men and Dwarves (and Hobbits). Gandalf He exudes wisdom and power, as Pippin himself remarks:
Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Book V, Chapter I
From that quote we can see it's quite obvious Pippin himself isn't sure of what Gandalf is. He isn't an Elf, Men, Dwarf, or any other race present in Middle-earth. What then is he? He's never told, and only knows Gandalf as "one of the 5 Wizards that were sent to Middle-earth".
Frodo likely thinks the same. Learned as he is in the lore of Middle-earth, I do not believe he knew more of what a "Wizard" was anymore than Treebeard, himself a very old being.
‘Saruman is a Wizard,’ answered Treebeard. ‘More than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell.
Notes on Gandalf
It's also said that Men mistook Gandalf and the other Istari to be of the Elven-kind. Which is itself incorrect, of course, but further reinforces my stand that no one really knew what the Istari were. Certainly not Barliman, and not even Denethor.
Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
So, to answer your question, Bilbo and Frodo did not know that Gandalf was a Maia (by Word of God), and never found out, as far as the narrative tells us1.
I will leave you with this quote, courtesy of Gildor.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
Notes:
1 We aren't told whether Frodo, Bilbo or Sam ever found out, in Valinor, of Gandalf's race, but logically, we could assume they did. After all Gandalf would have used the name of Olorin by his fellow Maia, and would at least told his friends more about himself by then. (Hat-tip to Buzz in the comments)
1
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam probably did learn the truth about Gandalf's nature, once they had come to their final abodes in Tol Eressëa.
– Buzz
6 hours ago
@Buzz Yep, of course. Should have been more clear on that in my bottom-line.
– Mat Cauthon
6 hours ago
3
A few additional notes: 1. Galadriel had previous interaction with Maiar: in Valinor, and then Melian. That might have made it easier for her to recognise Gandalf for what he was. 2. Frodo would have seen on his journey how Gandalf was treated by Elrond, Galadriel, etc. He might not have known exactly what Gandalf was, but it could well contribute to his "someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand" perception.
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Nit: Elrond was born very near the end of the First Age, so he's really only been around for two Ages.
– chepner
4 hours ago
add a comment |
SHORT ANSWER:
I don't know if Bilbo and Frodo ever learned that Gandalf was a Maia.
LONG ANSWER:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 8, "The Scouring of the Shire", Frodo says of Saruman:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, describes the original Red Book of Westmarch.
It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to Rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and in S.R. 1420-1 he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War. But annexed to it and preserved along with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift. To these four volumes there was added in Westmarch a fifth containing commentaries, genealogies, and various other matters concerning the hobbit members of the Fellowship...
...But the chief importance of Findegil's copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1413, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.
So Bilbo wrote the original version of the The Hobbit, Frodo wrote the original version of The Lord of the Rings, and Bilbo translated into the Common Tongue and/or edited and/or wrote the original versions of most writings about the Elder Days such as the Quenta Silmarillion.
Frodo would have been the original author of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter V, "The Window on the West" with this dialog:
'The Grey Pilgrim?' Said Frodo 'Had he a name?'
'Mithrandir we called him in elf-Fashion,' said Faramir, 'and he was content, 'Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incunus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Later Frodo returned to Rivendell and spent some time with Bilbo, and Bilbo gave Frodo his 'Translations from the Elvish'. If the Valaquenta that named Olorin as a Maia was among Bilbo's translations, and if Frodo read the Valaquenta during his first or second stay in Rivendell, and if Frodo's memory was as good as mine, he might have suddenly thought: "What! Gandalf's original name in the West is the same as the name of a Maia in the Undying Lands in the West! Does that mean that Galdalf and other wizards are Maia?"
And if Frodo ever asked Bilbo if Bilbo had heard of all Gandalf's names and mentioned Olorin, and if Bilbo's memory was as good as mine, Bilbo might have remembered a Maia named Olorin in the Valaquenta or other sources, and Bilbo might have told Frodo that Gandalf's original name was the same as that of a Maia. And they might have wondered about that.
But there is no proof that either of those events happened.
If any accounts of the wizards that actually say they were Maia from Aman were among the contents of the Red Book of Westmarch, they would have been written or translated by Hobbits so eventually some Hobbit or Hobbits believed the Wizards were Maia. But on the other hand it is possible that Tolkien found those accounts not in the Red Book, his main source, but in other sources available to him, and that no Hobbit ever believed or knew that Wizards were Maia.
Remember that The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, says:
This account of the end of the Third Age is drawn mainly from the Red Book of Westmarch.
This shows that Tolkien used other written and/or oral sources for The Lord of the Rings and maybe other writings, some of which might not have come through Hobbits, let alone through Bilbo or Frodo.
Bilbo gave his 'Translations from the Elvish' to Frodo when Frodo left Rivendell to return to the Shire. And Frodo would have had very little opportunity to read them on the trip before the confrontation with Saruman at Bag End. He was mostly riding all day and sleeping around a campfire all night. If Frodo read a book while riding, or for an hour or two each night around the campfire, that would have been unusual enough to be remembered and written down in The Lord of the Rings, I think.
It is quite possible that Frodo realized that Saruman, and thus Gandalf and the other wizards, were Maia almost immediately after saying that the Wizards were a very high order of beings.
SPOILER ALERT!!
Frodo had heard from those present at the battle outside the Black Gate what happened when the Ring was destroyed and Sauron defeated:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 4, "The Field of Cormallen":
...And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightening-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out toward them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
Frodo was certainly told about that, and Frodo certainly learned that Sauron was a Maia.
As I remember, when sneaking into Mordor, Frodo and Sam talked about the story of Beren and Luthien, and noted that the light in the phial that Galadrial gave Frodo came from the Silmaril in the story of Beren and luthien. And Sauron was a character in that story. So it is possible that even Sam had heard Sauron described as a Maia, and had been told what a Maia was.
A few months after the overthrow of Sauron, Wormtongue killed Saruman, and then:
To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
So sometime after first reading The Lord of the Rings, and before I ever read about Valar and Maia, I deduced that the Wizards were lesser members of the same class of highly powerful supernatural beings as Sauron - whatever type of supernatural beings that was.
Frodo could have done the same, and Frodo knew that Sauron was a Maia, so after Saruman's death a minute or so after Frodo said that Saruman was a member of a high order of beings, Frodo had the necessary knowledge to deduce that Saruman and Gandalf were Maia.
But of course having the necessary information doesn't guarantee making the deduction, and Frodo did not get one part of the necessary information until after he made the statement about Saruman being of a high order.
So considering everything, I don't know if any of the Hobbits ever learned that the Istari or Wizards were Maia, and I don't know if Frodo knew that the Wizards were Maia when he said:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
Note: While writing this I once wrote "Biblo" instead of Bilbo, which seems rather appropriate.
See also here:
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/295737/ol%C3%B3rin-i-was-in-my-youth-in-the-west-that-is-forgotten-what-is-forgotten1
And here:
Who in Middle-earth knows the Istari's origin?2
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It is unclear whether anyone even knew Gandalf was a Maia
...save Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel themselves. Tolkien says this in the Unfinished Tales:
Wizard is a translation of Quenya Istar: one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
Which would make sense. The Istari came in secret to Middle-earth, and no one (save the aforementioned trio) found out about that. And you may wonder how these three found out, when the Istari didn't tell anyone about their past.
Cirdan
The easiest to explain. He's the guy who's in charge of the Grey Havens, and is one of the wisest (and oldest) of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth. It's clear Cirdan saw what Gandalf was, as he gives him Narya, one of the 3 Elven Rings - themselves being 3 out of the 20 Rings of Power - when Gandalf first arrives in Middle-earth (which is in itself a tell-tale sign of where he came from).
"Take this ring, Master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
― Círdan, Appendix BElrond
Another one of the wisest Elves in Middle-earth, it's likely he knew of what Gandalf (and the Istari were) from perception. He's the son of Earendil, the only Man ever admitted into Valinor (and lives to tell the tale), and he's been around for 3 Ages. He's also the bearer of Vilya, one of the 3 Elven Rings, and this connection may have given him insight of what Gandalf was.
Galadriel
Similar to Elrond, and Cirdan, Galadriel has lived in Middle-earth for 3 Ages, and she's far older than Elrond. The bearer of Nenya, and also wise enough to discern the nature of Gandalf and the other Istari.
Addressing your quote:
[...] someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
The Istari were known as Wizards to everyone in Middle-earth. I do not believe Frodo knew exactly that Gandalf was a Maia, just that he was of a nobler race than the Elves, Men and Dwarves (and Hobbits). Gandalf He exudes wisdom and power, as Pippin himself remarks:
Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Book V, Chapter I
From that quote we can see it's quite obvious Pippin himself isn't sure of what Gandalf is. He isn't an Elf, Men, Dwarf, or any other race present in Middle-earth. What then is he? He's never told, and only knows Gandalf as "one of the 5 Wizards that were sent to Middle-earth".
Frodo likely thinks the same. Learned as he is in the lore of Middle-earth, I do not believe he knew more of what a "Wizard" was anymore than Treebeard, himself a very old being.
‘Saruman is a Wizard,’ answered Treebeard. ‘More than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell.
Notes on Gandalf
It's also said that Men mistook Gandalf and the other Istari to be of the Elven-kind. Which is itself incorrect, of course, but further reinforces my stand that no one really knew what the Istari were. Certainly not Barliman, and not even Denethor.
Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
So, to answer your question, Bilbo and Frodo did not know that Gandalf was a Maia (by Word of God), and never found out, as far as the narrative tells us1.
I will leave you with this quote, courtesy of Gildor.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
Notes:
1 We aren't told whether Frodo, Bilbo or Sam ever found out, in Valinor, of Gandalf's race, but logically, we could assume they did. After all Gandalf would have used the name of Olorin by his fellow Maia, and would at least told his friends more about himself by then. (Hat-tip to Buzz in the comments)
1
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam probably did learn the truth about Gandalf's nature, once they had come to their final abodes in Tol Eressëa.
– Buzz
6 hours ago
@Buzz Yep, of course. Should have been more clear on that in my bottom-line.
– Mat Cauthon
6 hours ago
3
A few additional notes: 1. Galadriel had previous interaction with Maiar: in Valinor, and then Melian. That might have made it easier for her to recognise Gandalf for what he was. 2. Frodo would have seen on his journey how Gandalf was treated by Elrond, Galadriel, etc. He might not have known exactly what Gandalf was, but it could well contribute to his "someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand" perception.
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Nit: Elrond was born very near the end of the First Age, so he's really only been around for two Ages.
– chepner
4 hours ago
add a comment |
It is unclear whether anyone even knew Gandalf was a Maia
...save Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel themselves. Tolkien says this in the Unfinished Tales:
Wizard is a translation of Quenya Istar: one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
Which would make sense. The Istari came in secret to Middle-earth, and no one (save the aforementioned trio) found out about that. And you may wonder how these three found out, when the Istari didn't tell anyone about their past.
Cirdan
The easiest to explain. He's the guy who's in charge of the Grey Havens, and is one of the wisest (and oldest) of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth. It's clear Cirdan saw what Gandalf was, as he gives him Narya, one of the 3 Elven Rings - themselves being 3 out of the 20 Rings of Power - when Gandalf first arrives in Middle-earth (which is in itself a tell-tale sign of where he came from).
"Take this ring, Master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
― Círdan, Appendix BElrond
Another one of the wisest Elves in Middle-earth, it's likely he knew of what Gandalf (and the Istari were) from perception. He's the son of Earendil, the only Man ever admitted into Valinor (and lives to tell the tale), and he's been around for 3 Ages. He's also the bearer of Vilya, one of the 3 Elven Rings, and this connection may have given him insight of what Gandalf was.
Galadriel
Similar to Elrond, and Cirdan, Galadriel has lived in Middle-earth for 3 Ages, and she's far older than Elrond. The bearer of Nenya, and also wise enough to discern the nature of Gandalf and the other Istari.
Addressing your quote:
[...] someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
The Istari were known as Wizards to everyone in Middle-earth. I do not believe Frodo knew exactly that Gandalf was a Maia, just that he was of a nobler race than the Elves, Men and Dwarves (and Hobbits). Gandalf He exudes wisdom and power, as Pippin himself remarks:
Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Book V, Chapter I
From that quote we can see it's quite obvious Pippin himself isn't sure of what Gandalf is. He isn't an Elf, Men, Dwarf, or any other race present in Middle-earth. What then is he? He's never told, and only knows Gandalf as "one of the 5 Wizards that were sent to Middle-earth".
Frodo likely thinks the same. Learned as he is in the lore of Middle-earth, I do not believe he knew more of what a "Wizard" was anymore than Treebeard, himself a very old being.
‘Saruman is a Wizard,’ answered Treebeard. ‘More than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell.
Notes on Gandalf
It's also said that Men mistook Gandalf and the other Istari to be of the Elven-kind. Which is itself incorrect, of course, but further reinforces my stand that no one really knew what the Istari were. Certainly not Barliman, and not even Denethor.
Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
So, to answer your question, Bilbo and Frodo did not know that Gandalf was a Maia (by Word of God), and never found out, as far as the narrative tells us1.
I will leave you with this quote, courtesy of Gildor.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
Notes:
1 We aren't told whether Frodo, Bilbo or Sam ever found out, in Valinor, of Gandalf's race, but logically, we could assume they did. After all Gandalf would have used the name of Olorin by his fellow Maia, and would at least told his friends more about himself by then. (Hat-tip to Buzz in the comments)
1
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam probably did learn the truth about Gandalf's nature, once they had come to their final abodes in Tol Eressëa.
– Buzz
6 hours ago
@Buzz Yep, of course. Should have been more clear on that in my bottom-line.
– Mat Cauthon
6 hours ago
3
A few additional notes: 1. Galadriel had previous interaction with Maiar: in Valinor, and then Melian. That might have made it easier for her to recognise Gandalf for what he was. 2. Frodo would have seen on his journey how Gandalf was treated by Elrond, Galadriel, etc. He might not have known exactly what Gandalf was, but it could well contribute to his "someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand" perception.
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Nit: Elrond was born very near the end of the First Age, so he's really only been around for two Ages.
– chepner
4 hours ago
add a comment |
It is unclear whether anyone even knew Gandalf was a Maia
...save Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel themselves. Tolkien says this in the Unfinished Tales:
Wizard is a translation of Quenya Istar: one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
Which would make sense. The Istari came in secret to Middle-earth, and no one (save the aforementioned trio) found out about that. And you may wonder how these three found out, when the Istari didn't tell anyone about their past.
Cirdan
The easiest to explain. He's the guy who's in charge of the Grey Havens, and is one of the wisest (and oldest) of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth. It's clear Cirdan saw what Gandalf was, as he gives him Narya, one of the 3 Elven Rings - themselves being 3 out of the 20 Rings of Power - when Gandalf first arrives in Middle-earth (which is in itself a tell-tale sign of where he came from).
"Take this ring, Master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
― Círdan, Appendix BElrond
Another one of the wisest Elves in Middle-earth, it's likely he knew of what Gandalf (and the Istari were) from perception. He's the son of Earendil, the only Man ever admitted into Valinor (and lives to tell the tale), and he's been around for 3 Ages. He's also the bearer of Vilya, one of the 3 Elven Rings, and this connection may have given him insight of what Gandalf was.
Galadriel
Similar to Elrond, and Cirdan, Galadriel has lived in Middle-earth for 3 Ages, and she's far older than Elrond. The bearer of Nenya, and also wise enough to discern the nature of Gandalf and the other Istari.
Addressing your quote:
[...] someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
The Istari were known as Wizards to everyone in Middle-earth. I do not believe Frodo knew exactly that Gandalf was a Maia, just that he was of a nobler race than the Elves, Men and Dwarves (and Hobbits). Gandalf He exudes wisdom and power, as Pippin himself remarks:
Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Book V, Chapter I
From that quote we can see it's quite obvious Pippin himself isn't sure of what Gandalf is. He isn't an Elf, Men, Dwarf, or any other race present in Middle-earth. What then is he? He's never told, and only knows Gandalf as "one of the 5 Wizards that were sent to Middle-earth".
Frodo likely thinks the same. Learned as he is in the lore of Middle-earth, I do not believe he knew more of what a "Wizard" was anymore than Treebeard, himself a very old being.
‘Saruman is a Wizard,’ answered Treebeard. ‘More than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell.
Notes on Gandalf
It's also said that Men mistook Gandalf and the other Istari to be of the Elven-kind. Which is itself incorrect, of course, but further reinforces my stand that no one really knew what the Istari were. Certainly not Barliman, and not even Denethor.
Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
So, to answer your question, Bilbo and Frodo did not know that Gandalf was a Maia (by Word of God), and never found out, as far as the narrative tells us1.
I will leave you with this quote, courtesy of Gildor.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
Notes:
1 We aren't told whether Frodo, Bilbo or Sam ever found out, in Valinor, of Gandalf's race, but logically, we could assume they did. After all Gandalf would have used the name of Olorin by his fellow Maia, and would at least told his friends more about himself by then. (Hat-tip to Buzz in the comments)
It is unclear whether anyone even knew Gandalf was a Maia
...save Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel themselves. Tolkien says this in the Unfinished Tales:
Wizard is a translation of Quenya Istar: one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
Which would make sense. The Istari came in secret to Middle-earth, and no one (save the aforementioned trio) found out about that. And you may wonder how these three found out, when the Istari didn't tell anyone about their past.
Cirdan
The easiest to explain. He's the guy who's in charge of the Grey Havens, and is one of the wisest (and oldest) of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth. It's clear Cirdan saw what Gandalf was, as he gives him Narya, one of the 3 Elven Rings - themselves being 3 out of the 20 Rings of Power - when Gandalf first arrives in Middle-earth (which is in itself a tell-tale sign of where he came from).
"Take this ring, Master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
― Círdan, Appendix BElrond
Another one of the wisest Elves in Middle-earth, it's likely he knew of what Gandalf (and the Istari were) from perception. He's the son of Earendil, the only Man ever admitted into Valinor (and lives to tell the tale), and he's been around for 3 Ages. He's also the bearer of Vilya, one of the 3 Elven Rings, and this connection may have given him insight of what Gandalf was.
Galadriel
Similar to Elrond, and Cirdan, Galadriel has lived in Middle-earth for 3 Ages, and she's far older than Elrond. The bearer of Nenya, and also wise enough to discern the nature of Gandalf and the other Istari.
Addressing your quote:
[...] someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand.
The Istari were known as Wizards to everyone in Middle-earth. I do not believe Frodo knew exactly that Gandalf was a Maia, just that he was of a nobler race than the Elves, Men and Dwarves (and Hobbits). Gandalf He exudes wisdom and power, as Pippin himself remarks:
Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Book V, Chapter I
From that quote we can see it's quite obvious Pippin himself isn't sure of what Gandalf is. He isn't an Elf, Men, Dwarf, or any other race present in Middle-earth. What then is he? He's never told, and only knows Gandalf as "one of the 5 Wizards that were sent to Middle-earth".
Frodo likely thinks the same. Learned as he is in the lore of Middle-earth, I do not believe he knew more of what a "Wizard" was anymore than Treebeard, himself a very old being.
‘Saruman is a Wizard,’ answered Treebeard. ‘More than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell.
Notes on Gandalf
It's also said that Men mistook Gandalf and the other Istari to be of the Elven-kind. Which is itself incorrect, of course, but further reinforces my stand that no one really knew what the Istari were. Certainly not Barliman, and not even Denethor.
Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.
Unfinished Tales, Part II, The Istari
So, to answer your question, Bilbo and Frodo did not know that Gandalf was a Maia (by Word of God), and never found out, as far as the narrative tells us1.
I will leave you with this quote, courtesy of Gildor.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."
Notes:
1 We aren't told whether Frodo, Bilbo or Sam ever found out, in Valinor, of Gandalf's race, but logically, we could assume they did. After all Gandalf would have used the name of Olorin by his fellow Maia, and would at least told his friends more about himself by then. (Hat-tip to Buzz in the comments)
edited 6 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Mat CauthonMat Cauthon
19.9k4 gold badges98 silver badges150 bronze badges
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1
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam probably did learn the truth about Gandalf's nature, once they had come to their final abodes in Tol Eressëa.
– Buzz
6 hours ago
@Buzz Yep, of course. Should have been more clear on that in my bottom-line.
– Mat Cauthon
6 hours ago
3
A few additional notes: 1. Galadriel had previous interaction with Maiar: in Valinor, and then Melian. That might have made it easier for her to recognise Gandalf for what he was. 2. Frodo would have seen on his journey how Gandalf was treated by Elrond, Galadriel, etc. He might not have known exactly what Gandalf was, but it could well contribute to his "someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand" perception.
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Nit: Elrond was born very near the end of the First Age, so he's really only been around for two Ages.
– chepner
4 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam probably did learn the truth about Gandalf's nature, once they had come to their final abodes in Tol Eressëa.
– Buzz
6 hours ago
@Buzz Yep, of course. Should have been more clear on that in my bottom-line.
– Mat Cauthon
6 hours ago
3
A few additional notes: 1. Galadriel had previous interaction with Maiar: in Valinor, and then Melian. That might have made it easier for her to recognise Gandalf for what he was. 2. Frodo would have seen on his journey how Gandalf was treated by Elrond, Galadriel, etc. He might not have known exactly what Gandalf was, but it could well contribute to his "someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand" perception.
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Nit: Elrond was born very near the end of the First Age, so he's really only been around for two Ages.
– chepner
4 hours ago
1
1
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam probably did learn the truth about Gandalf's nature, once they had come to their final abodes in Tol Eressëa.
– Buzz
6 hours ago
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam probably did learn the truth about Gandalf's nature, once they had come to their final abodes in Tol Eressëa.
– Buzz
6 hours ago
@Buzz Yep, of course. Should have been more clear on that in my bottom-line.
– Mat Cauthon
6 hours ago
@Buzz Yep, of course. Should have been more clear on that in my bottom-line.
– Mat Cauthon
6 hours ago
3
3
A few additional notes: 1. Galadriel had previous interaction with Maiar: in Valinor, and then Melian. That might have made it easier for her to recognise Gandalf for what he was. 2. Frodo would have seen on his journey how Gandalf was treated by Elrond, Galadriel, etc. He might not have known exactly what Gandalf was, but it could well contribute to his "someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand" perception.
– Galastel
5 hours ago
A few additional notes: 1. Galadriel had previous interaction with Maiar: in Valinor, and then Melian. That might have made it easier for her to recognise Gandalf for what he was. 2. Frodo would have seen on his journey how Gandalf was treated by Elrond, Galadriel, etc. He might not have known exactly what Gandalf was, but it could well contribute to his "someone of a race against which we would never have dared to raise our hand" perception.
– Galastel
5 hours ago
Nit: Elrond was born very near the end of the First Age, so he's really only been around for two Ages.
– chepner
4 hours ago
Nit: Elrond was born very near the end of the First Age, so he's really only been around for two Ages.
– chepner
4 hours ago
add a comment |
SHORT ANSWER:
I don't know if Bilbo and Frodo ever learned that Gandalf was a Maia.
LONG ANSWER:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 8, "The Scouring of the Shire", Frodo says of Saruman:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, describes the original Red Book of Westmarch.
It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to Rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and in S.R. 1420-1 he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War. But annexed to it and preserved along with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift. To these four volumes there was added in Westmarch a fifth containing commentaries, genealogies, and various other matters concerning the hobbit members of the Fellowship...
...But the chief importance of Findegil's copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1413, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.
So Bilbo wrote the original version of the The Hobbit, Frodo wrote the original version of The Lord of the Rings, and Bilbo translated into the Common Tongue and/or edited and/or wrote the original versions of most writings about the Elder Days such as the Quenta Silmarillion.
Frodo would have been the original author of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter V, "The Window on the West" with this dialog:
'The Grey Pilgrim?' Said Frodo 'Had he a name?'
'Mithrandir we called him in elf-Fashion,' said Faramir, 'and he was content, 'Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incunus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Later Frodo returned to Rivendell and spent some time with Bilbo, and Bilbo gave Frodo his 'Translations from the Elvish'. If the Valaquenta that named Olorin as a Maia was among Bilbo's translations, and if Frodo read the Valaquenta during his first or second stay in Rivendell, and if Frodo's memory was as good as mine, he might have suddenly thought: "What! Gandalf's original name in the West is the same as the name of a Maia in the Undying Lands in the West! Does that mean that Galdalf and other wizards are Maia?"
And if Frodo ever asked Bilbo if Bilbo had heard of all Gandalf's names and mentioned Olorin, and if Bilbo's memory was as good as mine, Bilbo might have remembered a Maia named Olorin in the Valaquenta or other sources, and Bilbo might have told Frodo that Gandalf's original name was the same as that of a Maia. And they might have wondered about that.
But there is no proof that either of those events happened.
If any accounts of the wizards that actually say they were Maia from Aman were among the contents of the Red Book of Westmarch, they would have been written or translated by Hobbits so eventually some Hobbit or Hobbits believed the Wizards were Maia. But on the other hand it is possible that Tolkien found those accounts not in the Red Book, his main source, but in other sources available to him, and that no Hobbit ever believed or knew that Wizards were Maia.
Remember that The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, says:
This account of the end of the Third Age is drawn mainly from the Red Book of Westmarch.
This shows that Tolkien used other written and/or oral sources for The Lord of the Rings and maybe other writings, some of which might not have come through Hobbits, let alone through Bilbo or Frodo.
Bilbo gave his 'Translations from the Elvish' to Frodo when Frodo left Rivendell to return to the Shire. And Frodo would have had very little opportunity to read them on the trip before the confrontation with Saruman at Bag End. He was mostly riding all day and sleeping around a campfire all night. If Frodo read a book while riding, or for an hour or two each night around the campfire, that would have been unusual enough to be remembered and written down in The Lord of the Rings, I think.
It is quite possible that Frodo realized that Saruman, and thus Gandalf and the other wizards, were Maia almost immediately after saying that the Wizards were a very high order of beings.
SPOILER ALERT!!
Frodo had heard from those present at the battle outside the Black Gate what happened when the Ring was destroyed and Sauron defeated:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 4, "The Field of Cormallen":
...And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightening-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out toward them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
Frodo was certainly told about that, and Frodo certainly learned that Sauron was a Maia.
As I remember, when sneaking into Mordor, Frodo and Sam talked about the story of Beren and Luthien, and noted that the light in the phial that Galadrial gave Frodo came from the Silmaril in the story of Beren and luthien. And Sauron was a character in that story. So it is possible that even Sam had heard Sauron described as a Maia, and had been told what a Maia was.
A few months after the overthrow of Sauron, Wormtongue killed Saruman, and then:
To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
So sometime after first reading The Lord of the Rings, and before I ever read about Valar and Maia, I deduced that the Wizards were lesser members of the same class of highly powerful supernatural beings as Sauron - whatever type of supernatural beings that was.
Frodo could have done the same, and Frodo knew that Sauron was a Maia, so after Saruman's death a minute or so after Frodo said that Saruman was a member of a high order of beings, Frodo had the necessary knowledge to deduce that Saruman and Gandalf were Maia.
But of course having the necessary information doesn't guarantee making the deduction, and Frodo did not get one part of the necessary information until after he made the statement about Saruman being of a high order.
So considering everything, I don't know if any of the Hobbits ever learned that the Istari or Wizards were Maia, and I don't know if Frodo knew that the Wizards were Maia when he said:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
Note: While writing this I once wrote "Biblo" instead of Bilbo, which seems rather appropriate.
See also here:
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/295737/ol%C3%B3rin-i-was-in-my-youth-in-the-west-that-is-forgotten-what-is-forgotten1
And here:
Who in Middle-earth knows the Istari's origin?2
add a comment |
SHORT ANSWER:
I don't know if Bilbo and Frodo ever learned that Gandalf was a Maia.
LONG ANSWER:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 8, "The Scouring of the Shire", Frodo says of Saruman:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, describes the original Red Book of Westmarch.
It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to Rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and in S.R. 1420-1 he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War. But annexed to it and preserved along with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift. To these four volumes there was added in Westmarch a fifth containing commentaries, genealogies, and various other matters concerning the hobbit members of the Fellowship...
...But the chief importance of Findegil's copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1413, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.
So Bilbo wrote the original version of the The Hobbit, Frodo wrote the original version of The Lord of the Rings, and Bilbo translated into the Common Tongue and/or edited and/or wrote the original versions of most writings about the Elder Days such as the Quenta Silmarillion.
Frodo would have been the original author of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter V, "The Window on the West" with this dialog:
'The Grey Pilgrim?' Said Frodo 'Had he a name?'
'Mithrandir we called him in elf-Fashion,' said Faramir, 'and he was content, 'Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incunus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Later Frodo returned to Rivendell and spent some time with Bilbo, and Bilbo gave Frodo his 'Translations from the Elvish'. If the Valaquenta that named Olorin as a Maia was among Bilbo's translations, and if Frodo read the Valaquenta during his first or second stay in Rivendell, and if Frodo's memory was as good as mine, he might have suddenly thought: "What! Gandalf's original name in the West is the same as the name of a Maia in the Undying Lands in the West! Does that mean that Galdalf and other wizards are Maia?"
And if Frodo ever asked Bilbo if Bilbo had heard of all Gandalf's names and mentioned Olorin, and if Bilbo's memory was as good as mine, Bilbo might have remembered a Maia named Olorin in the Valaquenta or other sources, and Bilbo might have told Frodo that Gandalf's original name was the same as that of a Maia. And they might have wondered about that.
But there is no proof that either of those events happened.
If any accounts of the wizards that actually say they were Maia from Aman were among the contents of the Red Book of Westmarch, they would have been written or translated by Hobbits so eventually some Hobbit or Hobbits believed the Wizards were Maia. But on the other hand it is possible that Tolkien found those accounts not in the Red Book, his main source, but in other sources available to him, and that no Hobbit ever believed or knew that Wizards were Maia.
Remember that The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, says:
This account of the end of the Third Age is drawn mainly from the Red Book of Westmarch.
This shows that Tolkien used other written and/or oral sources for The Lord of the Rings and maybe other writings, some of which might not have come through Hobbits, let alone through Bilbo or Frodo.
Bilbo gave his 'Translations from the Elvish' to Frodo when Frodo left Rivendell to return to the Shire. And Frodo would have had very little opportunity to read them on the trip before the confrontation with Saruman at Bag End. He was mostly riding all day and sleeping around a campfire all night. If Frodo read a book while riding, or for an hour or two each night around the campfire, that would have been unusual enough to be remembered and written down in The Lord of the Rings, I think.
It is quite possible that Frodo realized that Saruman, and thus Gandalf and the other wizards, were Maia almost immediately after saying that the Wizards were a very high order of beings.
SPOILER ALERT!!
Frodo had heard from those present at the battle outside the Black Gate what happened when the Ring was destroyed and Sauron defeated:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 4, "The Field of Cormallen":
...And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightening-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out toward them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
Frodo was certainly told about that, and Frodo certainly learned that Sauron was a Maia.
As I remember, when sneaking into Mordor, Frodo and Sam talked about the story of Beren and Luthien, and noted that the light in the phial that Galadrial gave Frodo came from the Silmaril in the story of Beren and luthien. And Sauron was a character in that story. So it is possible that even Sam had heard Sauron described as a Maia, and had been told what a Maia was.
A few months after the overthrow of Sauron, Wormtongue killed Saruman, and then:
To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
So sometime after first reading The Lord of the Rings, and before I ever read about Valar and Maia, I deduced that the Wizards were lesser members of the same class of highly powerful supernatural beings as Sauron - whatever type of supernatural beings that was.
Frodo could have done the same, and Frodo knew that Sauron was a Maia, so after Saruman's death a minute or so after Frodo said that Saruman was a member of a high order of beings, Frodo had the necessary knowledge to deduce that Saruman and Gandalf were Maia.
But of course having the necessary information doesn't guarantee making the deduction, and Frodo did not get one part of the necessary information until after he made the statement about Saruman being of a high order.
So considering everything, I don't know if any of the Hobbits ever learned that the Istari or Wizards were Maia, and I don't know if Frodo knew that the Wizards were Maia when he said:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
Note: While writing this I once wrote "Biblo" instead of Bilbo, which seems rather appropriate.
See also here:
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/295737/ol%C3%B3rin-i-was-in-my-youth-in-the-west-that-is-forgotten-what-is-forgotten1
And here:
Who in Middle-earth knows the Istari's origin?2
add a comment |
SHORT ANSWER:
I don't know if Bilbo and Frodo ever learned that Gandalf was a Maia.
LONG ANSWER:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 8, "The Scouring of the Shire", Frodo says of Saruman:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, describes the original Red Book of Westmarch.
It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to Rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and in S.R. 1420-1 he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War. But annexed to it and preserved along with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift. To these four volumes there was added in Westmarch a fifth containing commentaries, genealogies, and various other matters concerning the hobbit members of the Fellowship...
...But the chief importance of Findegil's copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1413, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.
So Bilbo wrote the original version of the The Hobbit, Frodo wrote the original version of The Lord of the Rings, and Bilbo translated into the Common Tongue and/or edited and/or wrote the original versions of most writings about the Elder Days such as the Quenta Silmarillion.
Frodo would have been the original author of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter V, "The Window on the West" with this dialog:
'The Grey Pilgrim?' Said Frodo 'Had he a name?'
'Mithrandir we called him in elf-Fashion,' said Faramir, 'and he was content, 'Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incunus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Later Frodo returned to Rivendell and spent some time with Bilbo, and Bilbo gave Frodo his 'Translations from the Elvish'. If the Valaquenta that named Olorin as a Maia was among Bilbo's translations, and if Frodo read the Valaquenta during his first or second stay in Rivendell, and if Frodo's memory was as good as mine, he might have suddenly thought: "What! Gandalf's original name in the West is the same as the name of a Maia in the Undying Lands in the West! Does that mean that Galdalf and other wizards are Maia?"
And if Frodo ever asked Bilbo if Bilbo had heard of all Gandalf's names and mentioned Olorin, and if Bilbo's memory was as good as mine, Bilbo might have remembered a Maia named Olorin in the Valaquenta or other sources, and Bilbo might have told Frodo that Gandalf's original name was the same as that of a Maia. And they might have wondered about that.
But there is no proof that either of those events happened.
If any accounts of the wizards that actually say they were Maia from Aman were among the contents of the Red Book of Westmarch, they would have been written or translated by Hobbits so eventually some Hobbit or Hobbits believed the Wizards were Maia. But on the other hand it is possible that Tolkien found those accounts not in the Red Book, his main source, but in other sources available to him, and that no Hobbit ever believed or knew that Wizards were Maia.
Remember that The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, says:
This account of the end of the Third Age is drawn mainly from the Red Book of Westmarch.
This shows that Tolkien used other written and/or oral sources for The Lord of the Rings and maybe other writings, some of which might not have come through Hobbits, let alone through Bilbo or Frodo.
Bilbo gave his 'Translations from the Elvish' to Frodo when Frodo left Rivendell to return to the Shire. And Frodo would have had very little opportunity to read them on the trip before the confrontation with Saruman at Bag End. He was mostly riding all day and sleeping around a campfire all night. If Frodo read a book while riding, or for an hour or two each night around the campfire, that would have been unusual enough to be remembered and written down in The Lord of the Rings, I think.
It is quite possible that Frodo realized that Saruman, and thus Gandalf and the other wizards, were Maia almost immediately after saying that the Wizards were a very high order of beings.
SPOILER ALERT!!
Frodo had heard from those present at the battle outside the Black Gate what happened when the Ring was destroyed and Sauron defeated:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 4, "The Field of Cormallen":
...And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightening-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out toward them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
Frodo was certainly told about that, and Frodo certainly learned that Sauron was a Maia.
As I remember, when sneaking into Mordor, Frodo and Sam talked about the story of Beren and Luthien, and noted that the light in the phial that Galadrial gave Frodo came from the Silmaril in the story of Beren and luthien. And Sauron was a character in that story. So it is possible that even Sam had heard Sauron described as a Maia, and had been told what a Maia was.
A few months after the overthrow of Sauron, Wormtongue killed Saruman, and then:
To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
So sometime after first reading The Lord of the Rings, and before I ever read about Valar and Maia, I deduced that the Wizards were lesser members of the same class of highly powerful supernatural beings as Sauron - whatever type of supernatural beings that was.
Frodo could have done the same, and Frodo knew that Sauron was a Maia, so after Saruman's death a minute or so after Frodo said that Saruman was a member of a high order of beings, Frodo had the necessary knowledge to deduce that Saruman and Gandalf were Maia.
But of course having the necessary information doesn't guarantee making the deduction, and Frodo did not get one part of the necessary information until after he made the statement about Saruman being of a high order.
So considering everything, I don't know if any of the Hobbits ever learned that the Istari or Wizards were Maia, and I don't know if Frodo knew that the Wizards were Maia when he said:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
Note: While writing this I once wrote "Biblo" instead of Bilbo, which seems rather appropriate.
See also here:
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/295737/ol%C3%B3rin-i-was-in-my-youth-in-the-west-that-is-forgotten-what-is-forgotten1
And here:
Who in Middle-earth knows the Istari's origin?2
SHORT ANSWER:
I don't know if Bilbo and Frodo ever learned that Gandalf was a Maia.
LONG ANSWER:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 8, "The Scouring of the Shire", Frodo says of Saruman:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, describes the original Red Book of Westmarch.
It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to Rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and in S.R. 1420-1 he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War. But annexed to it and preserved along with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift. To these four volumes there was added in Westmarch a fifth containing commentaries, genealogies, and various other matters concerning the hobbit members of the Fellowship...
...But the chief importance of Findegil's copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1413, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.
So Bilbo wrote the original version of the The Hobbit, Frodo wrote the original version of The Lord of the Rings, and Bilbo translated into the Common Tongue and/or edited and/or wrote the original versions of most writings about the Elder Days such as the Quenta Silmarillion.
Frodo would have been the original author of The Two Towers, Book Four, Chapter V, "The Window on the West" with this dialog:
'The Grey Pilgrim?' Said Frodo 'Had he a name?'
'Mithrandir we called him in elf-Fashion,' said Faramir, 'and he was content, 'Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incunus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Later Frodo returned to Rivendell and spent some time with Bilbo, and Bilbo gave Frodo his 'Translations from the Elvish'. If the Valaquenta that named Olorin as a Maia was among Bilbo's translations, and if Frodo read the Valaquenta during his first or second stay in Rivendell, and if Frodo's memory was as good as mine, he might have suddenly thought: "What! Gandalf's original name in the West is the same as the name of a Maia in the Undying Lands in the West! Does that mean that Galdalf and other wizards are Maia?"
And if Frodo ever asked Bilbo if Bilbo had heard of all Gandalf's names and mentioned Olorin, and if Bilbo's memory was as good as mine, Bilbo might have remembered a Maia named Olorin in the Valaquenta or other sources, and Bilbo might have told Frodo that Gandalf's original name was the same as that of a Maia. And they might have wondered about that.
But there is no proof that either of those events happened.
If any accounts of the wizards that actually say they were Maia from Aman were among the contents of the Red Book of Westmarch, they would have been written or translated by Hobbits so eventually some Hobbit or Hobbits believed the Wizards were Maia. But on the other hand it is possible that Tolkien found those accounts not in the Red Book, his main source, but in other sources available to him, and that no Hobbit ever believed or knew that Wizards were Maia.
Remember that The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue, Note on the Shire Records, says:
This account of the end of the Third Age is drawn mainly from the Red Book of Westmarch.
This shows that Tolkien used other written and/or oral sources for The Lord of the Rings and maybe other writings, some of which might not have come through Hobbits, let alone through Bilbo or Frodo.
Bilbo gave his 'Translations from the Elvish' to Frodo when Frodo left Rivendell to return to the Shire. And Frodo would have had very little opportunity to read them on the trip before the confrontation with Saruman at Bag End. He was mostly riding all day and sleeping around a campfire all night. If Frodo read a book while riding, or for an hour or two each night around the campfire, that would have been unusual enough to be remembered and written down in The Lord of the Rings, I think.
It is quite possible that Frodo realized that Saruman, and thus Gandalf and the other wizards, were Maia almost immediately after saying that the Wizards were a very high order of beings.
SPOILER ALERT!!
Frodo had heard from those present at the battle outside the Black Gate what happened when the Ring was destroyed and Sauron defeated:
In The Return of the King. Book Six, Chapter 4, "The Field of Cormallen":
...And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightening-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out toward them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
Frodo was certainly told about that, and Frodo certainly learned that Sauron was a Maia.
As I remember, when sneaking into Mordor, Frodo and Sam talked about the story of Beren and Luthien, and noted that the light in the phial that Galadrial gave Frodo came from the Silmaril in the story of Beren and luthien. And Sauron was a character in that story. So it is possible that even Sam had heard Sauron described as a Maia, and had been told what a Maia was.
A few months after the overthrow of Sauron, Wormtongue killed Saruman, and then:
To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
So sometime after first reading The Lord of the Rings, and before I ever read about Valar and Maia, I deduced that the Wizards were lesser members of the same class of highly powerful supernatural beings as Sauron - whatever type of supernatural beings that was.
Frodo could have done the same, and Frodo knew that Sauron was a Maia, so after Saruman's death a minute or so after Frodo said that Saruman was a member of a high order of beings, Frodo had the necessary knowledge to deduce that Saruman and Gandalf were Maia.
But of course having the necessary information doesn't guarantee making the deduction, and Frodo did not get one part of the necessary information until after he made the statement about Saruman being of a high order.
So considering everything, I don't know if any of the Hobbits ever learned that the Istari or Wizards were Maia, and I don't know if Frodo knew that the Wizards were Maia when he said:
...He was great once, of a noble kind we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.
Note: While writing this I once wrote "Biblo" instead of Bilbo, which seems rather appropriate.
See also here:
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/295737/ol%C3%B3rin-i-was-in-my-youth-in-the-west-that-is-forgotten-what-is-forgotten1
And here:
Who in Middle-earth knows the Istari's origin?2
edited 1 hour ago
answered 3 hours ago
M. A. GoldingM. A. Golding
17.1k1 gold badge30 silver badges69 bronze badges
17.1k1 gold badge30 silver badges69 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
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5
What makes you think he didn't just consider wizards a "race" unto themselves,without knowing why they were as they were?
– Zeiss Ikon
8 hours ago
1
"Barleyman" -> "Barliman (Butterbur)".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
@ZeissIkon Frodo is ostensibly the narrator of most of what happened in LoTR, so in the Red Book of the Westmarch he wrote down both the Silmarillion's mention of Olórin, as well as Gandalf's own statement that he was once called Olórin "in his youth in the West".
– Spencer
8 hours ago
1
@BinaryWorrier But hobbits sometimes faced men violently in the past. In the same years of the Lord of the Rings, Bree's hobbits and men drove out the evil southern men.
– Ginasius
8 hours ago
1
Note also the passage in RotK where Pippin suddenly wonders how much older Gandalf is than Denethor, and where he came from.
– Daniel Roseman
7 hours ago