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Doesn't the Schrödinger's cat inside the box cause the probability wave function to collapse long before a human opens the box?

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Doesn't the Schrödinger's cat inside the box cause the probability wave function to collapse long before a human opens the box?


Schrödinger's cat and the difficulty of macroscopic superposition stateGeiger counter in the Schrodinger's cat experimentAre particles really in a superposition before you observe the particleWhat is the deal with the Schrodinger's cat? Why is it considered a paradox?Schrodinger's cat paradox problemsWhat would happen if we put Schrödinger inside the box and the cat opened the box door?What if Schrödinger's cat's meowed?Is reality really epistemological in its complete sense?Will there be two cats in the box (superposition) if I use virtual particles (magnetic field) to open the box in Schrodinger's experiment?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








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$begingroup$


My point is that there is no superposition of dead and alive. The cat will cause the probability function to collapse long before we open the box. What am I missing here? Isn't the cat capable of collapsing the probability function? If not, why?










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Eddie Bravo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can you explain the down vote, please?
    $endgroup$
    – Eddie Bravo
    8 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
    $endgroup$
    – Count Iblis
    8 hours ago







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago


















2












$begingroup$


My point is that there is no superposition of dead and alive. The cat will cause the probability function to collapse long before we open the box. What am I missing here? Isn't the cat capable of collapsing the probability function? If not, why?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



Eddie Bravo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can you explain the down vote, please?
    $endgroup$
    – Eddie Bravo
    8 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
    $endgroup$
    – Count Iblis
    8 hours ago







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago














2












2








2





$begingroup$


My point is that there is no superposition of dead and alive. The cat will cause the probability function to collapse long before we open the box. What am I missing here? Isn't the cat capable of collapsing the probability function? If not, why?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



Eddie Bravo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




My point is that there is no superposition of dead and alive. The cat will cause the probability function to collapse long before we open the box. What am I missing here? Isn't the cat capable of collapsing the probability function? If not, why?







quantum-mechanics quantum-entanglement superposition wavefunction-collapse schroedingers-cat






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New contributor



Eddie Bravo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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share|cite|improve this question









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Eddie Bravo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited 8 hours ago









Qmechanic

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asked 8 hours ago









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Check out our Code of Conduct.









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can you explain the down vote, please?
    $endgroup$
    – Eddie Bravo
    8 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
    $endgroup$
    – Count Iblis
    8 hours ago







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can you explain the down vote, please?
    $endgroup$
    – Eddie Bravo
    8 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
    $endgroup$
    – StephenG
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
    $endgroup$
    – Count Iblis
    8 hours ago







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Shor
    8 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
Can you explain the down vote, please?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Can you explain the down vote, please?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
8 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
8 hours ago





$begingroup$
I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
8 hours ago





1




1




$begingroup$
@PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
$endgroup$
– StephenG
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
@PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
$endgroup$
– StephenG
8 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
$endgroup$
– Count Iblis
8 hours ago





$begingroup$
If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
$endgroup$
– Count Iblis
8 hours ago





5




5




$begingroup$
@StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
8 hours ago





$begingroup$
@StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
8 hours ago











3 Answers
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According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
    $endgroup$
    – Eddie Bravo
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
    $endgroup$
    – Aaron Stevens
    7 hours ago


















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$begingroup$

A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.



So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.






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$endgroup$




















    0












    $begingroup$

    This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).



    On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.



    That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.



    In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.



    Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)






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      3 Answers
      3






      active

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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

      votes









      2












      $begingroup$

      According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
        $endgroup$
        – Eddie Bravo
        8 hours ago











      • $begingroup$
        @EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        7 hours ago















      2












      $begingroup$

      According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
        $endgroup$
        – Eddie Bravo
        8 hours ago











      • $begingroup$
        @EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        7 hours ago













      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$

      According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered 8 hours ago









      S. McGrewS. McGrew

      10.9k2 gold badges13 silver badges43 bronze badges




      10.9k2 gold badges13 silver badges43 bronze badges











      • $begingroup$
        The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
        $endgroup$
        – Eddie Bravo
        8 hours ago











      • $begingroup$
        @EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        7 hours ago
















      • $begingroup$
        The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
        $endgroup$
        – Eddie Bravo
        8 hours ago











      • $begingroup$
        @EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        7 hours ago















      $begingroup$
      The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
      $endgroup$
      – Eddie Bravo
      8 hours ago





      $begingroup$
      The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
      $endgroup$
      – Eddie Bravo
      8 hours ago













      $begingroup$
      @EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      7 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      @EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      7 hours ago













      2












      $begingroup$

      A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.



      So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        2












        $begingroup$

        A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.



        So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$

          A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.



          So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.



          So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 7 hours ago









          WillOWillO

          7,6652 gold badges23 silver badges35 bronze badges




          7,6652 gold badges23 silver badges35 bronze badges





















              0












              $begingroup$

              This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).



              On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.



              That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.



              In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.



              Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)






              share|cite









              $endgroup$

















                0












                $begingroup$

                This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).



                On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.



                That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.



                In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.



                Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)






                share|cite









                $endgroup$















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).



                  On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.



                  That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.



                  In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.



                  Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)






                  share|cite









                  $endgroup$



                  This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).



                  On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.



                  That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.



                  In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.



                  Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)







                  share|cite












                  share|cite



                  share|cite










                  answered 1 min ago









                  The_SympathizerThe_Sympathizer

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