Von Neumann Extractor - Which bit is retained?Is just a bit of random, “fully random”?Estimating random number entropy for input into 256 bit hashCSPRNG that cannot be used as random extractorReusing same source for single-source randomness extractorSecure entropy extractor for thermal noise collected from camera input?Fuzzy Extractor: Order of elements in setFuzzy Extractor constructor for sequence reconciliationFuzzy Extractor for Binary SequenceEntropy Rate of Bit StringProving von Neumann extractor correct
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Von Neumann Extractor - Which bit is retained?
Is just a bit of random, “fully random”?Estimating random number entropy for input into 256 bit hashCSPRNG that cannot be used as random extractorReusing same source for single-source randomness extractorSecure entropy extractor for thermal noise collected from camera input?Fuzzy Extractor: Order of elements in setFuzzy Extractor constructor for sequence reconciliationFuzzy Extractor for Binary SequenceEntropy Rate of Bit StringProving von Neumann extractor correct
$begingroup$
Which bit is retained in the Von Neumann debiasing algorithm? 00 and 11 are discarded and 10, 01 are retained but is the first or the second bit retained or does it matter?
In other words:
first: 10 -> 1 , 01 -> 0
second: 10 -> 0 , 01 -> 1
Original Paper (appears to be first but could be interpreted either way):
https://dornsifecms.usc.edu/assets/sites/520/docs/VonNeumann-ams12p36-38.pdf
Examples (first digit accept):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator#Software_whitening
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness_extractor
http://pit-claudel.fr/clement/blog/generating-uniformly-random-data-from-skewed-input-biased-coins-loaded-dice-skew-correction-and-the-von-neumann-extractor/#more-410
https://people.seas.harvard.edu/~salil/pseudorandomness/extractors.pdf
Examples (second digit accept):
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38359648_Iterating_Von_Neumann's_Procedure_for_Extracting_Random_Bits
https://www.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/publications/article-2628.pdf
Examples of the second are present in papers regarding an Iterated Von Neumann algorithm.
randomness entropy
asked 4 hours ago
bitbltbitblt
183
New contributor
bitblt is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Which bit is retained in the Von Neumann debiasing algorithm? 00 and 11 are discarded and 10, 01 are retained but is the first or the second bit retained or does it matter?
In other words:
first: 10 -> 1 , 01 -> 0
second: 10 -> 0 , 01 -> 1
Original Paper (appears to be first but could be interpreted either way):
https://dornsifecms.usc.edu/assets/sites/520/docs/VonNeumann-ams12p36-38.pdf
Examples (first digit accept):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator#Software_whitening
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness_extractor
http://pit-claudel.fr/clement/blog/generating-uniformly-random-data-from-skewed-input-biased-coins-loaded-dice-skew-correction-and-the-von-neumann-extractor/#more-410
https://people.seas.harvard.edu/~salil/pseudorandomness/extractors.pdf
Examples (second digit accept):
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38359648_Iterating_Von_Neumann's_Procedure_for_Extracting_Random_Bits
https://www.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/publications/article-2628.pdf
Examples of the second are present in papers regarding an Iterated Von Neumann algorithm.
randomness entropy
asked 4 hours ago
bitbltbitblt
183
New contributor
bitblt is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Does it matter? Hint: Write down the assumptions, and compute from the assumptions the probability distributions of the outcomes of both alternatives.
$endgroup$
– Squeamish Ossifrage
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why pick one when you can alternate?
$endgroup$
– Nat
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Which bit is retained in the Von Neumann debiasing algorithm? 00 and 11 are discarded and 10, 01 are retained but is the first or the second bit retained or does it matter?
In other words:
first: 10 -> 1 , 01 -> 0
second: 10 -> 0 , 01 -> 1
Original Paper (appears to be first but could be interpreted either way):
https://dornsifecms.usc.edu/assets/sites/520/docs/VonNeumann-ams12p36-38.pdf
Examples (first digit accept):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator#Software_whitening
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness_extractor
http://pit-claudel.fr/clement/blog/generating-uniformly-random-data-from-skewed-input-biased-coins-loaded-dice-skew-correction-and-the-von-neumann-extractor/#more-410
https://people.seas.harvard.edu/~salil/pseudorandomness/extractors.pdf
Examples (second digit accept):
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38359648_Iterating_Von_Neumann's_Procedure_for_Extracting_Random_Bits
https://www.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/publications/article-2628.pdf
Examples of the second are present in papers regarding an Iterated Von Neumann algorithm.
randomness entropy
asked 4 hours ago
bitbltbitblt
183
New contributor
bitblt is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
Which bit is retained in the Von Neumann debiasing algorithm? 00 and 11 are discarded and 10, 01 are retained but is the first or the second bit retained or does it matter?
In other words:
first: 10 -> 1 , 01 -> 0
second: 10 -> 0 , 01 -> 1
Original Paper (appears to be first but could be interpreted either way):
https://dornsifecms.usc.edu/assets/sites/520/docs/VonNeumann-ams12p36-38.pdf
Examples (first digit accept):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator#Software_whitening
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness_extractor
http://pit-claudel.fr/clement/blog/generating-uniformly-random-data-from-skewed-input-biased-coins-loaded-dice-skew-correction-and-the-von-neumann-extractor/#more-410
https://people.seas.harvard.edu/~salil/pseudorandomness/extractors.pdf
Examples (second digit accept):
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38359648_Iterating_Von_Neumann's_Procedure_for_Extracting_Random_Bits
https://www.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/publications/article-2628.pdf
Examples of the second are present in papers regarding an Iterated Von Neumann algorithm.
randomness entropy
randomness entropy
asked 4 hours ago
bitbltbitblt
183
New contributor
bitblt is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
bitbltbitblt
183
New contributor
bitblt is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
bitbltbitblt
183
New contributor
bitblt is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
bitbltbitblt
183
asked 4 hours ago
bitbltbitblt
183
183
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bitblt is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
bitblt is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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2
$begingroup$
Does it matter? Hint: Write down the assumptions, and compute from the assumptions the probability distributions of the outcomes of both alternatives.
$endgroup$
– Squeamish Ossifrage
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why pick one when you can alternate?
$endgroup$
– Nat
1 hour ago
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
Does it matter? Hint: Write down the assumptions, and compute from the assumptions the probability distributions of the outcomes of both alternatives.
$endgroup$
– Squeamish Ossifrage
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why pick one when you can alternate?
$endgroup$
– Nat
1 hour ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Does it matter? Hint: Write down the assumptions, and compute from the assumptions the probability distributions of the outcomes of both alternatives.
$endgroup$
– Squeamish Ossifrage
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Does it matter? Hint: Write down the assumptions, and compute from the assumptions the probability distributions of the outcomes of both alternatives.
$endgroup$
– Squeamish Ossifrage
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why pick one when you can alternate?
$endgroup$
– Nat
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Why pick one when you can alternate?
$endgroup$
– Nat
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
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votes
$begingroup$
It doesn't matter at all, since both $01$ and $10$ have the same probability $p(1-p).$
answered 3 hours ago
kodlukodlu
9,45111332
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Furthermore, using the second bit instead of the first (or vice versa) just has the effect of inverting the output. And a uniformly random bitstream is still uniform even if inverted.
$endgroup$
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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$begingroup$
It doesn't matter at all, since both $01$ and $10$ have the same probability $p(1-p).$
answered 3 hours ago
kodlukodlu
9,45111332
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Furthermore, using the second bit instead of the first (or vice versa) just has the effect of inverting the output. And a uniformly random bitstream is still uniform even if inverted.
$endgroup$
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It doesn't matter at all, since both $01$ and $10$ have the same probability $p(1-p).$
answered 3 hours ago
kodlukodlu
9,45111332
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Furthermore, using the second bit instead of the first (or vice versa) just has the effect of inverting the output. And a uniformly random bitstream is still uniform even if inverted.
$endgroup$
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It doesn't matter at all, since both $01$ and $10$ have the same probability $p(1-p).$
answered 3 hours ago
kodlukodlu
9,45111332
$endgroup$
It doesn't matter at all, since both $01$ and $10$ have the same probability $p(1-p).$
answered 3 hours ago
kodlukodlu
9,45111332
answered 3 hours ago
kodlukodlu
9,45111332
answered 3 hours ago
kodlukodlu
9,45111332
answered 3 hours ago
kodlukodlu
9,45111332
9,45111332
1
$begingroup$
Furthermore, using the second bit instead of the first (or vice versa) just has the effect of inverting the output. And a uniformly random bitstream is still uniform even if inverted.
$endgroup$
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Furthermore, using the second bit instead of the first (or vice versa) just has the effect of inverting the output. And a uniformly random bitstream is still uniform even if inverted.
$endgroup$
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Furthermore, using the second bit instead of the first (or vice versa) just has the effect of inverting the output. And a uniformly random bitstream is still uniform even if inverted.
$endgroup$
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Furthermore, using the second bit instead of the first (or vice versa) just has the effect of inverting the output. And a uniformly random bitstream is still uniform even if inverted.
$endgroup$
– Ilmari Karonen
3 hours ago
add a comment |
bitblt is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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bitblt is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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2
$begingroup$
Does it matter? Hint: Write down the assumptions, and compute from the assumptions the probability distributions of the outcomes of both alternatives.
$endgroup$
– Squeamish Ossifrage
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why pick one when you can alternate?
$endgroup$
– Nat
1 hour ago