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Accidental duration in measureless music


Accidental in Chopin Opus. 69 No. 2What are Accidental Notes?Do some measures get no numbers, in an opera score?Does an accidental apply to all octaves?Meaning of double accidentalWhich accidental continues through the bar?






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6

















An accidental usually only lasts until the end of a measure, but what if there are no measures? I'm writing some music without bar lines (blame Satie) and am wondering what to do about notating accidentals, and how people will read accidentals in the absence of bars. As far as I can see it there are three options:



  1. Accidentals last until the end of the measure. There is no end of the measure, so accidentals last forever.

  2. Accidentals only apply to an individual note.

  3. Accidentals last for "about a bar".

1 seems logical but could get confusing in a longer piece and would lead to lots of naturals to cancel accidentals. 2 could be more workable but might lead to lots of repetition of accidentals near each other. 3 would be asking for trouble.



Is there a convention for this, or do I need to explicitly state what rules I'm following?



I mainly write with pencil and paper, but I'm aware that when I come to put the score into the computer I may have to cheat and have bars with invisible barlines or something, so a rule that can be implemented easily in MuseScore and/or Lilypond/Frescobaldi would be preferable.










share|improve this question
































    6

















    An accidental usually only lasts until the end of a measure, but what if there are no measures? I'm writing some music without bar lines (blame Satie) and am wondering what to do about notating accidentals, and how people will read accidentals in the absence of bars. As far as I can see it there are three options:



    1. Accidentals last until the end of the measure. There is no end of the measure, so accidentals last forever.

    2. Accidentals only apply to an individual note.

    3. Accidentals last for "about a bar".

    1 seems logical but could get confusing in a longer piece and would lead to lots of naturals to cancel accidentals. 2 could be more workable but might lead to lots of repetition of accidentals near each other. 3 would be asking for trouble.



    Is there a convention for this, or do I need to explicitly state what rules I'm following?



    I mainly write with pencil and paper, but I'm aware that when I come to put the score into the computer I may have to cheat and have bars with invisible barlines or something, so a rule that can be implemented easily in MuseScore and/or Lilypond/Frescobaldi would be preferable.










    share|improve this question




























      6












      6








      6








      An accidental usually only lasts until the end of a measure, but what if there are no measures? I'm writing some music without bar lines (blame Satie) and am wondering what to do about notating accidentals, and how people will read accidentals in the absence of bars. As far as I can see it there are three options:



      1. Accidentals last until the end of the measure. There is no end of the measure, so accidentals last forever.

      2. Accidentals only apply to an individual note.

      3. Accidentals last for "about a bar".

      1 seems logical but could get confusing in a longer piece and would lead to lots of naturals to cancel accidentals. 2 could be more workable but might lead to lots of repetition of accidentals near each other. 3 would be asking for trouble.



      Is there a convention for this, or do I need to explicitly state what rules I'm following?



      I mainly write with pencil and paper, but I'm aware that when I come to put the score into the computer I may have to cheat and have bars with invisible barlines or something, so a rule that can be implemented easily in MuseScore and/or Lilypond/Frescobaldi would be preferable.










      share|improve this question














      An accidental usually only lasts until the end of a measure, but what if there are no measures? I'm writing some music without bar lines (blame Satie) and am wondering what to do about notating accidentals, and how people will read accidentals in the absence of bars. As far as I can see it there are three options:



      1. Accidentals last until the end of the measure. There is no end of the measure, so accidentals last forever.

      2. Accidentals only apply to an individual note.

      3. Accidentals last for "about a bar".

      1 seems logical but could get confusing in a longer piece and would lead to lots of naturals to cancel accidentals. 2 could be more workable but might lead to lots of repetition of accidentals near each other. 3 would be asking for trouble.



      Is there a convention for this, or do I need to explicitly state what rules I'm following?



      I mainly write with pencil and paper, but I'm aware that when I come to put the score into the computer I may have to cheat and have bars with invisible barlines or something, so a rule that can be implemented easily in MuseScore and/or Lilypond/Frescobaldi would be preferable.







      notation accidentals






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question



      share|improve this question










      asked 8 hours ago









      BobBob

      1,4183 silver badges14 bronze badges




      1,4183 silver badges14 bronze badges























          3 Answers
          3






          active

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          9


















          Your #2 thought is the convention. Yes, this means you'll need to write lots of accidentals. That's okay. Contemporary players, especially those who regularly perform new music are used to reading lots of accidentals. A fair number of people (including myself) actually prefer reading accidentals over key signatures.



          In addition to writing in every accidental, you'll need to include a note in the score / parts above that section saying "accidentals only apply to single pitch" as well as a note in the front matter detailing the same thing. I would also include a lot of courtesy accidentals as well, just to make sure everything is super clear.






          share|improve this answer





















          • 1





            A common convention is that if a note with an accidental is immediately repeated, you don't need to add an accidental to it. This is fairly normal even if there are bar lines. But it's worth while putting this into a note for clarity. And I agree about the courtesy accidentals.

            – Peter
            5 hours ago



















          1


















          There are two basic conventions.



          The "second Viennese school" (Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, and their followers) chose to write every note with an accidental, including every note that has a natural.



          That is not so bad for monophonic instruments, but it usually looks a mess for polyphonic notation.



          The "modernist" or "neo-modern" convention is that an accidental applies to all notes that are immediately repeated at the same pitch. If any other note intervenes, the accidental is shown again.



          The second Viennese school convention has the advantage that it is easy to proof read hand written music. Any note with a missing accidental is a mistake, and every note has an unambiguous pitch.



          The big problem with the modernist convention is that most computer notation software doesn't support it automatically, and therefore you can "break the rules" but still get the correct computer playback. In practice it is advisable to add plenty of cautionary accidentals, to avoid wasting lots of rehearsal time getting everybody to play the right notes.



          Lilypond supports a wide range of different convention for accidentals, including both of the above. See http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#automatic-accidentals.



          The option that accidentals last "about a bar" is fairly useless, unless the music is such that everybody reading the score will have the same idea about the length of a bar - and in that case, writing the barlines isn't going to give anyone a misleading idea about the music, so just write them! You can have bars of unequal lengths with no time signatures, if you like.






          share|improve this answer











          New contributor



          guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.




























            -1


















            An accidental lasts for as long as it does. At the point you need to cancel, write a natural sign. That then lasts until it's no longer needed. Then another accidental comes out to play.



            There's no need to mark every note - which presumably will be a natural in its normal state. The problem for you may be that you notice loads of F♯s, for example, and at that point start thinking ' this could be marked in the key sig...'






            share|improve this answer


























            • A large amount of music written in this way actually follows the convention of accidentals only modifying notes that they touch. Imagine reading a B and having to remember whether it was natural or flat 15 measures ago...

              – user45266
              5 hours ago











            • @user45266 - so the antidote is putting an accidental against each and every changed note? Sounds pretty pointless. But that, presumably, is your solution. And - 15 measures ago? There were no measures!

              – Tim
              5 hours ago












            • @Tim No, it is not pointless; it is unambiguous.

              – ibonyun
              20 mins ago












            Your Answer








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            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

            votes








            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            9


















            Your #2 thought is the convention. Yes, this means you'll need to write lots of accidentals. That's okay. Contemporary players, especially those who regularly perform new music are used to reading lots of accidentals. A fair number of people (including myself) actually prefer reading accidentals over key signatures.



            In addition to writing in every accidental, you'll need to include a note in the score / parts above that section saying "accidentals only apply to single pitch" as well as a note in the front matter detailing the same thing. I would also include a lot of courtesy accidentals as well, just to make sure everything is super clear.






            share|improve this answer





















            • 1





              A common convention is that if a note with an accidental is immediately repeated, you don't need to add an accidental to it. This is fairly normal even if there are bar lines. But it's worth while putting this into a note for clarity. And I agree about the courtesy accidentals.

              – Peter
              5 hours ago
















            9


















            Your #2 thought is the convention. Yes, this means you'll need to write lots of accidentals. That's okay. Contemporary players, especially those who regularly perform new music are used to reading lots of accidentals. A fair number of people (including myself) actually prefer reading accidentals over key signatures.



            In addition to writing in every accidental, you'll need to include a note in the score / parts above that section saying "accidentals only apply to single pitch" as well as a note in the front matter detailing the same thing. I would also include a lot of courtesy accidentals as well, just to make sure everything is super clear.






            share|improve this answer





















            • 1





              A common convention is that if a note with an accidental is immediately repeated, you don't need to add an accidental to it. This is fairly normal even if there are bar lines. But it's worth while putting this into a note for clarity. And I agree about the courtesy accidentals.

              – Peter
              5 hours ago














            9














            9










            9









            Your #2 thought is the convention. Yes, this means you'll need to write lots of accidentals. That's okay. Contemporary players, especially those who regularly perform new music are used to reading lots of accidentals. A fair number of people (including myself) actually prefer reading accidentals over key signatures.



            In addition to writing in every accidental, you'll need to include a note in the score / parts above that section saying "accidentals only apply to single pitch" as well as a note in the front matter detailing the same thing. I would also include a lot of courtesy accidentals as well, just to make sure everything is super clear.






            share|improve this answer














            Your #2 thought is the convention. Yes, this means you'll need to write lots of accidentals. That's okay. Contemporary players, especially those who regularly perform new music are used to reading lots of accidentals. A fair number of people (including myself) actually prefer reading accidentals over key signatures.



            In addition to writing in every accidental, you'll need to include a note in the score / parts above that section saying "accidentals only apply to single pitch" as well as a note in the front matter detailing the same thing. I would also include a lot of courtesy accidentals as well, just to make sure everything is super clear.







            share|improve this answer













            share|improve this answer




            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 8 hours ago









            jjmusicnotesjjmusicnotes

            22.6k2 gold badges35 silver badges97 bronze badges




            22.6k2 gold badges35 silver badges97 bronze badges










            • 1





              A common convention is that if a note with an accidental is immediately repeated, you don't need to add an accidental to it. This is fairly normal even if there are bar lines. But it's worth while putting this into a note for clarity. And I agree about the courtesy accidentals.

              – Peter
              5 hours ago













            • 1





              A common convention is that if a note with an accidental is immediately repeated, you don't need to add an accidental to it. This is fairly normal even if there are bar lines. But it's worth while putting this into a note for clarity. And I agree about the courtesy accidentals.

              – Peter
              5 hours ago








            1




            1





            A common convention is that if a note with an accidental is immediately repeated, you don't need to add an accidental to it. This is fairly normal even if there are bar lines. But it's worth while putting this into a note for clarity. And I agree about the courtesy accidentals.

            – Peter
            5 hours ago






            A common convention is that if a note with an accidental is immediately repeated, you don't need to add an accidental to it. This is fairly normal even if there are bar lines. But it's worth while putting this into a note for clarity. And I agree about the courtesy accidentals.

            – Peter
            5 hours ago














            1


















            There are two basic conventions.



            The "second Viennese school" (Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, and their followers) chose to write every note with an accidental, including every note that has a natural.



            That is not so bad for monophonic instruments, but it usually looks a mess for polyphonic notation.



            The "modernist" or "neo-modern" convention is that an accidental applies to all notes that are immediately repeated at the same pitch. If any other note intervenes, the accidental is shown again.



            The second Viennese school convention has the advantage that it is easy to proof read hand written music. Any note with a missing accidental is a mistake, and every note has an unambiguous pitch.



            The big problem with the modernist convention is that most computer notation software doesn't support it automatically, and therefore you can "break the rules" but still get the correct computer playback. In practice it is advisable to add plenty of cautionary accidentals, to avoid wasting lots of rehearsal time getting everybody to play the right notes.



            Lilypond supports a wide range of different convention for accidentals, including both of the above. See http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#automatic-accidentals.



            The option that accidentals last "about a bar" is fairly useless, unless the music is such that everybody reading the score will have the same idea about the length of a bar - and in that case, writing the barlines isn't going to give anyone a misleading idea about the music, so just write them! You can have bars of unequal lengths with no time signatures, if you like.






            share|improve this answer











            New contributor



            guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.

























              1


















              There are two basic conventions.



              The "second Viennese school" (Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, and their followers) chose to write every note with an accidental, including every note that has a natural.



              That is not so bad for monophonic instruments, but it usually looks a mess for polyphonic notation.



              The "modernist" or "neo-modern" convention is that an accidental applies to all notes that are immediately repeated at the same pitch. If any other note intervenes, the accidental is shown again.



              The second Viennese school convention has the advantage that it is easy to proof read hand written music. Any note with a missing accidental is a mistake, and every note has an unambiguous pitch.



              The big problem with the modernist convention is that most computer notation software doesn't support it automatically, and therefore you can "break the rules" but still get the correct computer playback. In practice it is advisable to add plenty of cautionary accidentals, to avoid wasting lots of rehearsal time getting everybody to play the right notes.



              Lilypond supports a wide range of different convention for accidentals, including both of the above. See http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#automatic-accidentals.



              The option that accidentals last "about a bar" is fairly useless, unless the music is such that everybody reading the score will have the same idea about the length of a bar - and in that case, writing the barlines isn't going to give anyone a misleading idea about the music, so just write them! You can have bars of unequal lengths with no time signatures, if you like.






              share|improve this answer











              New contributor



              guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.























                1














                1










                1









                There are two basic conventions.



                The "second Viennese school" (Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, and their followers) chose to write every note with an accidental, including every note that has a natural.



                That is not so bad for monophonic instruments, but it usually looks a mess for polyphonic notation.



                The "modernist" or "neo-modern" convention is that an accidental applies to all notes that are immediately repeated at the same pitch. If any other note intervenes, the accidental is shown again.



                The second Viennese school convention has the advantage that it is easy to proof read hand written music. Any note with a missing accidental is a mistake, and every note has an unambiguous pitch.



                The big problem with the modernist convention is that most computer notation software doesn't support it automatically, and therefore you can "break the rules" but still get the correct computer playback. In practice it is advisable to add plenty of cautionary accidentals, to avoid wasting lots of rehearsal time getting everybody to play the right notes.



                Lilypond supports a wide range of different convention for accidentals, including both of the above. See http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#automatic-accidentals.



                The option that accidentals last "about a bar" is fairly useless, unless the music is such that everybody reading the score will have the same idea about the length of a bar - and in that case, writing the barlines isn't going to give anyone a misleading idea about the music, so just write them! You can have bars of unequal lengths with no time signatures, if you like.






                share|improve this answer











                New contributor



                guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                There are two basic conventions.



                The "second Viennese school" (Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, and their followers) chose to write every note with an accidental, including every note that has a natural.



                That is not so bad for monophonic instruments, but it usually looks a mess for polyphonic notation.



                The "modernist" or "neo-modern" convention is that an accidental applies to all notes that are immediately repeated at the same pitch. If any other note intervenes, the accidental is shown again.



                The second Viennese school convention has the advantage that it is easy to proof read hand written music. Any note with a missing accidental is a mistake, and every note has an unambiguous pitch.



                The big problem with the modernist convention is that most computer notation software doesn't support it automatically, and therefore you can "break the rules" but still get the correct computer playback. In practice it is advisable to add plenty of cautionary accidentals, to avoid wasting lots of rehearsal time getting everybody to play the right notes.



                Lilypond supports a wide range of different convention for accidentals, including both of the above. See http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#automatic-accidentals.



                The option that accidentals last "about a bar" is fairly useless, unless the music is such that everybody reading the score will have the same idea about the length of a bar - and in that case, writing the barlines isn't going to give anyone a misleading idea about the music, so just write them! You can have bars of unequal lengths with no time signatures, if you like.







                share|improve this answer











                New contributor



                guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.








                share|improve this answer




                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 2 hours ago





















                New contributor



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                answered 2 hours ago









                guestguest

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                    -1


















                    An accidental lasts for as long as it does. At the point you need to cancel, write a natural sign. That then lasts until it's no longer needed. Then another accidental comes out to play.



                    There's no need to mark every note - which presumably will be a natural in its normal state. The problem for you may be that you notice loads of F♯s, for example, and at that point start thinking ' this could be marked in the key sig...'






                    share|improve this answer


























                    • A large amount of music written in this way actually follows the convention of accidentals only modifying notes that they touch. Imagine reading a B and having to remember whether it was natural or flat 15 measures ago...

                      – user45266
                      5 hours ago











                    • @user45266 - so the antidote is putting an accidental against each and every changed note? Sounds pretty pointless. But that, presumably, is your solution. And - 15 measures ago? There were no measures!

                      – Tim
                      5 hours ago












                    • @Tim No, it is not pointless; it is unambiguous.

                      – ibonyun
                      20 mins ago















                    -1


















                    An accidental lasts for as long as it does. At the point you need to cancel, write a natural sign. That then lasts until it's no longer needed. Then another accidental comes out to play.



                    There's no need to mark every note - which presumably will be a natural in its normal state. The problem for you may be that you notice loads of F♯s, for example, and at that point start thinking ' this could be marked in the key sig...'






                    share|improve this answer


























                    • A large amount of music written in this way actually follows the convention of accidentals only modifying notes that they touch. Imagine reading a B and having to remember whether it was natural or flat 15 measures ago...

                      – user45266
                      5 hours ago











                    • @user45266 - so the antidote is putting an accidental against each and every changed note? Sounds pretty pointless. But that, presumably, is your solution. And - 15 measures ago? There were no measures!

                      – Tim
                      5 hours ago












                    • @Tim No, it is not pointless; it is unambiguous.

                      – ibonyun
                      20 mins ago













                    -1














                    -1










                    -1









                    An accidental lasts for as long as it does. At the point you need to cancel, write a natural sign. That then lasts until it's no longer needed. Then another accidental comes out to play.



                    There's no need to mark every note - which presumably will be a natural in its normal state. The problem for you may be that you notice loads of F♯s, for example, and at that point start thinking ' this could be marked in the key sig...'






                    share|improve this answer














                    An accidental lasts for as long as it does. At the point you need to cancel, write a natural sign. That then lasts until it's no longer needed. Then another accidental comes out to play.



                    There's no need to mark every note - which presumably will be a natural in its normal state. The problem for you may be that you notice loads of F♯s, for example, and at that point start thinking ' this could be marked in the key sig...'







                    share|improve this answer













                    share|improve this answer




                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 8 hours ago









                    TimTim

                    115k12 gold badges113 silver badges290 bronze badges




                    115k12 gold badges113 silver badges290 bronze badges















                    • A large amount of music written in this way actually follows the convention of accidentals only modifying notes that they touch. Imagine reading a B and having to remember whether it was natural or flat 15 measures ago...

                      – user45266
                      5 hours ago











                    • @user45266 - so the antidote is putting an accidental against each and every changed note? Sounds pretty pointless. But that, presumably, is your solution. And - 15 measures ago? There were no measures!

                      – Tim
                      5 hours ago












                    • @Tim No, it is not pointless; it is unambiguous.

                      – ibonyun
                      20 mins ago

















                    • A large amount of music written in this way actually follows the convention of accidentals only modifying notes that they touch. Imagine reading a B and having to remember whether it was natural or flat 15 measures ago...

                      – user45266
                      5 hours ago











                    • @user45266 - so the antidote is putting an accidental against each and every changed note? Sounds pretty pointless. But that, presumably, is your solution. And - 15 measures ago? There were no measures!

                      – Tim
                      5 hours ago












                    • @Tim No, it is not pointless; it is unambiguous.

                      – ibonyun
                      20 mins ago
















                    A large amount of music written in this way actually follows the convention of accidentals only modifying notes that they touch. Imagine reading a B and having to remember whether it was natural or flat 15 measures ago...

                    – user45266
                    5 hours ago





                    A large amount of music written in this way actually follows the convention of accidentals only modifying notes that they touch. Imagine reading a B and having to remember whether it was natural or flat 15 measures ago...

                    – user45266
                    5 hours ago













                    @user45266 - so the antidote is putting an accidental against each and every changed note? Sounds pretty pointless. But that, presumably, is your solution. And - 15 measures ago? There were no measures!

                    – Tim
                    5 hours ago






                    @user45266 - so the antidote is putting an accidental against each and every changed note? Sounds pretty pointless. But that, presumably, is your solution. And - 15 measures ago? There were no measures!

                    – Tim
                    5 hours ago














                    @Tim No, it is not pointless; it is unambiguous.

                    – ibonyun
                    20 mins ago





                    @Tim No, it is not pointless; it is unambiguous.

                    – ibonyun
                    20 mins ago


















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