Can a Sorcerer use the Careful Spell Metamagic option on spells with optional saving throws?If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?How can we prevent a sorcerer with the Subtle Spell metamagic option from casting?Subtle spell and saving throwsCan the first effect of Plane Shift work remotely with the Distant Spell metamagic option?How does Compelled Duel work with the saving throws?Can Twinned Spell be used on Plane Shift when it's used to banish an unwilling creature to another plane?How does the Twinned Spell metamagic option interact with the Draconic Bloodline sorcerer's Elemental Affinity feature?Can creatures with Spell Resistance voluntarily fail saving throws?Are sorcerers unable to use the Careful Spell metamagic option on themselves?If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?

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Can a Sorcerer use the Careful Spell Metamagic option on spells with optional saving throws?


If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?How can we prevent a sorcerer with the Subtle Spell metamagic option from casting?Subtle spell and saving throwsCan the first effect of Plane Shift work remotely with the Distant Spell metamagic option?How does Compelled Duel work with the saving throws?Can Twinned Spell be used on Plane Shift when it's used to banish an unwilling creature to another plane?How does the Twinned Spell metamagic option interact with the Draconic Bloodline sorcerer's Elemental Affinity feature?Can creatures with Spell Resistance voluntarily fail saving throws?Are sorcerers unable to use the Careful Spell metamagic option on themselves?If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?






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4












$begingroup$


The Sorcerer's Careful Spell Metamagic states:




When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




However there are spells which do not force saving throws such as the bones of the earth spell which states:




If a pillar is created under a creature, that creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be lifted by the pillar. A creature can choose to fail the save.




An example of when you would want them to succeed on their saving throw but they themself would want to fail the save is this:

You wish to ascend using this spell to get to a higher area but there is an enemy flying directly above you. If they choose to fail on the save they would ascend the pillar with you, this is not ideal. If instead they succeeded on the save, they would end up below you and you could walk around more freely.



How do these features interact with each other; can you really not use the Careful Spell Metamagic on spells with optional saves because they are not forced?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




















    4












    $begingroup$


    The Sorcerer's Careful Spell Metamagic states:




    When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




    However there are spells which do not force saving throws such as the bones of the earth spell which states:




    If a pillar is created under a creature, that creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be lifted by the pillar. A creature can choose to fail the save.




    An example of when you would want them to succeed on their saving throw but they themself would want to fail the save is this:

    You wish to ascend using this spell to get to a higher area but there is an enemy flying directly above you. If they choose to fail on the save they would ascend the pillar with you, this is not ideal. If instead they succeeded on the save, they would end up below you and you could walk around more freely.



    How do these features interact with each other; can you really not use the Careful Spell Metamagic on spells with optional saves because they are not forced?










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$
















      4












      4








      4





      $begingroup$


      The Sorcerer's Careful Spell Metamagic states:




      When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




      However there are spells which do not force saving throws such as the bones of the earth spell which states:




      If a pillar is created under a creature, that creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be lifted by the pillar. A creature can choose to fail the save.




      An example of when you would want them to succeed on their saving throw but they themself would want to fail the save is this:

      You wish to ascend using this spell to get to a higher area but there is an enemy flying directly above you. If they choose to fail on the save they would ascend the pillar with you, this is not ideal. If instead they succeeded on the save, they would end up below you and you could walk around more freely.



      How do these features interact with each other; can you really not use the Careful Spell Metamagic on spells with optional saves because they are not forced?










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      The Sorcerer's Careful Spell Metamagic states:




      When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




      However there are spells which do not force saving throws such as the bones of the earth spell which states:




      If a pillar is created under a creature, that creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be lifted by the pillar. A creature can choose to fail the save.




      An example of when you would want them to succeed on their saving throw but they themself would want to fail the save is this:

      You wish to ascend using this spell to get to a higher area but there is an enemy flying directly above you. If they choose to fail on the save they would ascend the pillar with you, this is not ideal. If instead they succeeded on the save, they would end up below you and you could walk around more freely.



      How do these features interact with each other; can you really not use the Careful Spell Metamagic on spells with optional saves because they are not forced?







      dnd-5e spells sorcerer saving-throw metamagic






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 5 hours ago









      V2Blast

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      asked 8 hours ago









      Medix2Medix2

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          2 Answers
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          5













          $begingroup$

          Careful Spell works just fine on Bones of the Earth



          When a character is told to make a Saving Throw, said Saving Throw has been forced upon them. In the case of spells like Bones of the Earth, the Saving Throw hasn't been made "Optional": the creature targeted has simply been given the option to automatically fail it. They're still subjected to the Saving Throw, and they still suffer the consequences (which may or may not be beneficial in this context) for having failed it.



          So it's perfectly fine for Careful Spell to be applied to this spell, or other spells that have Saving Throws that can be failed deliberately (like Zone of Truth).



          There is an intersection of specific rules though



          It's not clear whether the Sorcerer using Careful Spell to force a creature to succeed on their Saving Throw cancels out a creature that chooses to fail their Saving Throw, or not. They're both specific rules: automatically succeed vs choose to fail.



          At my table I would generally rule the Careful Spell takes precedence, because it's specific to this casting of the spell, whereas the choice to fail applies to all castings of the spell. But I can't necessarily say your DM will rule the same. So while Careful Spell would indeed allow a character to automatically succeed at their Saving Throw, whether it prevents them from choosing to fail is an open question.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            Timing may be part of this as well. Metamagic occurs during the casting, but the saving throw for it is after it has been successfully cast.
            $endgroup$
            – NautArch
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            My ruling would be the opposite because Careful Spell is more general because it can be applied to any spell but the choosing to fail is specific to this spell. It’s definitely an ask your DM situation
            $endgroup$
            – Dale M
            3 hours ago


















          3













          $begingroup$

          Careful Spell can be combined with Bones of the Earth



          As you point out, the spell states that




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          A creature cannot fail something that it isn't being forced to do. In other words, being able to choose to fail doesn't change the fact that it is still forcing a saving throw.



          As such, the Careful Spell Metamagic is a valid option to combine with Bones of the Earth.



          So can the creature be forced to save?



          Of course, once you combine them, you get the effects of both:




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          and




          A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




          So what happens? Can the creature still choose to fail?



          It is up to the DM.



          Unfortunately, both Careful Spell and Bones of the Earth are applying specific rules, overriding the general rules of the game. Determining which one wins is something that DMs are responsible for determining.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            You could provide your answer as to what happens when both apply as an answer to this question if you wanted: "If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?"
            $endgroup$
            – Medix2
            7 hours ago














          Your Answer








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          2 Answers
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          2 Answers
          2






          active

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          active

          oldest

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          active

          oldest

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          5













          $begingroup$

          Careful Spell works just fine on Bones of the Earth



          When a character is told to make a Saving Throw, said Saving Throw has been forced upon them. In the case of spells like Bones of the Earth, the Saving Throw hasn't been made "Optional": the creature targeted has simply been given the option to automatically fail it. They're still subjected to the Saving Throw, and they still suffer the consequences (which may or may not be beneficial in this context) for having failed it.



          So it's perfectly fine for Careful Spell to be applied to this spell, or other spells that have Saving Throws that can be failed deliberately (like Zone of Truth).



          There is an intersection of specific rules though



          It's not clear whether the Sorcerer using Careful Spell to force a creature to succeed on their Saving Throw cancels out a creature that chooses to fail their Saving Throw, or not. They're both specific rules: automatically succeed vs choose to fail.



          At my table I would generally rule the Careful Spell takes precedence, because it's specific to this casting of the spell, whereas the choice to fail applies to all castings of the spell. But I can't necessarily say your DM will rule the same. So while Careful Spell would indeed allow a character to automatically succeed at their Saving Throw, whether it prevents them from choosing to fail is an open question.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            Timing may be part of this as well. Metamagic occurs during the casting, but the saving throw for it is after it has been successfully cast.
            $endgroup$
            – NautArch
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            My ruling would be the opposite because Careful Spell is more general because it can be applied to any spell but the choosing to fail is specific to this spell. It’s definitely an ask your DM situation
            $endgroup$
            – Dale M
            3 hours ago















          5













          $begingroup$

          Careful Spell works just fine on Bones of the Earth



          When a character is told to make a Saving Throw, said Saving Throw has been forced upon them. In the case of spells like Bones of the Earth, the Saving Throw hasn't been made "Optional": the creature targeted has simply been given the option to automatically fail it. They're still subjected to the Saving Throw, and they still suffer the consequences (which may or may not be beneficial in this context) for having failed it.



          So it's perfectly fine for Careful Spell to be applied to this spell, or other spells that have Saving Throws that can be failed deliberately (like Zone of Truth).



          There is an intersection of specific rules though



          It's not clear whether the Sorcerer using Careful Spell to force a creature to succeed on their Saving Throw cancels out a creature that chooses to fail their Saving Throw, or not. They're both specific rules: automatically succeed vs choose to fail.



          At my table I would generally rule the Careful Spell takes precedence, because it's specific to this casting of the spell, whereas the choice to fail applies to all castings of the spell. But I can't necessarily say your DM will rule the same. So while Careful Spell would indeed allow a character to automatically succeed at their Saving Throw, whether it prevents them from choosing to fail is an open question.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            Timing may be part of this as well. Metamagic occurs during the casting, but the saving throw for it is after it has been successfully cast.
            $endgroup$
            – NautArch
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            My ruling would be the opposite because Careful Spell is more general because it can be applied to any spell but the choosing to fail is specific to this spell. It’s definitely an ask your DM situation
            $endgroup$
            – Dale M
            3 hours ago













          5














          5










          5







          $begingroup$

          Careful Spell works just fine on Bones of the Earth



          When a character is told to make a Saving Throw, said Saving Throw has been forced upon them. In the case of spells like Bones of the Earth, the Saving Throw hasn't been made "Optional": the creature targeted has simply been given the option to automatically fail it. They're still subjected to the Saving Throw, and they still suffer the consequences (which may or may not be beneficial in this context) for having failed it.



          So it's perfectly fine for Careful Spell to be applied to this spell, or other spells that have Saving Throws that can be failed deliberately (like Zone of Truth).



          There is an intersection of specific rules though



          It's not clear whether the Sorcerer using Careful Spell to force a creature to succeed on their Saving Throw cancels out a creature that chooses to fail their Saving Throw, or not. They're both specific rules: automatically succeed vs choose to fail.



          At my table I would generally rule the Careful Spell takes precedence, because it's specific to this casting of the spell, whereas the choice to fail applies to all castings of the spell. But I can't necessarily say your DM will rule the same. So while Careful Spell would indeed allow a character to automatically succeed at their Saving Throw, whether it prevents them from choosing to fail is an open question.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Careful Spell works just fine on Bones of the Earth



          When a character is told to make a Saving Throw, said Saving Throw has been forced upon them. In the case of spells like Bones of the Earth, the Saving Throw hasn't been made "Optional": the creature targeted has simply been given the option to automatically fail it. They're still subjected to the Saving Throw, and they still suffer the consequences (which may or may not be beneficial in this context) for having failed it.



          So it's perfectly fine for Careful Spell to be applied to this spell, or other spells that have Saving Throws that can be failed deliberately (like Zone of Truth).



          There is an intersection of specific rules though



          It's not clear whether the Sorcerer using Careful Spell to force a creature to succeed on their Saving Throw cancels out a creature that chooses to fail their Saving Throw, or not. They're both specific rules: automatically succeed vs choose to fail.



          At my table I would generally rule the Careful Spell takes precedence, because it's specific to this casting of the spell, whereas the choice to fail applies to all castings of the spell. But I can't necessarily say your DM will rule the same. So while Careful Spell would indeed allow a character to automatically succeed at their Saving Throw, whether it prevents them from choosing to fail is an open question.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 8 hours ago









          XiremaXirema

          35.2k4 gold badges113 silver badges206 bronze badges




          35.2k4 gold badges113 silver badges206 bronze badges














          • $begingroup$
            Timing may be part of this as well. Metamagic occurs during the casting, but the saving throw for it is after it has been successfully cast.
            $endgroup$
            – NautArch
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            My ruling would be the opposite because Careful Spell is more general because it can be applied to any spell but the choosing to fail is specific to this spell. It’s definitely an ask your DM situation
            $endgroup$
            – Dale M
            3 hours ago
















          • $begingroup$
            Timing may be part of this as well. Metamagic occurs during the casting, but the saving throw for it is after it has been successfully cast.
            $endgroup$
            – NautArch
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            My ruling would be the opposite because Careful Spell is more general because it can be applied to any spell but the choosing to fail is specific to this spell. It’s definitely an ask your DM situation
            $endgroup$
            – Dale M
            3 hours ago















          $begingroup$
          Timing may be part of this as well. Metamagic occurs during the casting, but the saving throw for it is after it has been successfully cast.
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          8 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Timing may be part of this as well. Metamagic occurs during the casting, but the saving throw for it is after it has been successfully cast.
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          8 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          My ruling would be the opposite because Careful Spell is more general because it can be applied to any spell but the choosing to fail is specific to this spell. It’s definitely an ask your DM situation
          $endgroup$
          – Dale M
          3 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          My ruling would be the opposite because Careful Spell is more general because it can be applied to any spell but the choosing to fail is specific to this spell. It’s definitely an ask your DM situation
          $endgroup$
          – Dale M
          3 hours ago













          3













          $begingroup$

          Careful Spell can be combined with Bones of the Earth



          As you point out, the spell states that




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          A creature cannot fail something that it isn't being forced to do. In other words, being able to choose to fail doesn't change the fact that it is still forcing a saving throw.



          As such, the Careful Spell Metamagic is a valid option to combine with Bones of the Earth.



          So can the creature be forced to save?



          Of course, once you combine them, you get the effects of both:




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          and




          A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




          So what happens? Can the creature still choose to fail?



          It is up to the DM.



          Unfortunately, both Careful Spell and Bones of the Earth are applying specific rules, overriding the general rules of the game. Determining which one wins is something that DMs are responsible for determining.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            You could provide your answer as to what happens when both apply as an answer to this question if you wanted: "If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?"
            $endgroup$
            – Medix2
            7 hours ago
















          3













          $begingroup$

          Careful Spell can be combined with Bones of the Earth



          As you point out, the spell states that




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          A creature cannot fail something that it isn't being forced to do. In other words, being able to choose to fail doesn't change the fact that it is still forcing a saving throw.



          As such, the Careful Spell Metamagic is a valid option to combine with Bones of the Earth.



          So can the creature be forced to save?



          Of course, once you combine them, you get the effects of both:




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          and




          A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




          So what happens? Can the creature still choose to fail?



          It is up to the DM.



          Unfortunately, both Careful Spell and Bones of the Earth are applying specific rules, overriding the general rules of the game. Determining which one wins is something that DMs are responsible for determining.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            You could provide your answer as to what happens when both apply as an answer to this question if you wanted: "If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?"
            $endgroup$
            – Medix2
            7 hours ago














          3














          3










          3







          $begingroup$

          Careful Spell can be combined with Bones of the Earth



          As you point out, the spell states that




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          A creature cannot fail something that it isn't being forced to do. In other words, being able to choose to fail doesn't change the fact that it is still forcing a saving throw.



          As such, the Careful Spell Metamagic is a valid option to combine with Bones of the Earth.



          So can the creature be forced to save?



          Of course, once you combine them, you get the effects of both:




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          and




          A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




          So what happens? Can the creature still choose to fail?



          It is up to the DM.



          Unfortunately, both Careful Spell and Bones of the Earth are applying specific rules, overriding the general rules of the game. Determining which one wins is something that DMs are responsible for determining.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          Careful Spell can be combined with Bones of the Earth



          As you point out, the spell states that




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          A creature cannot fail something that it isn't being forced to do. In other words, being able to choose to fail doesn't change the fact that it is still forcing a saving throw.



          As such, the Careful Spell Metamagic is a valid option to combine with Bones of the Earth.



          So can the creature be forced to save?



          Of course, once you combine them, you get the effects of both:




          A creature can choose to fail the save.




          and




          A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.




          So what happens? Can the creature still choose to fail?



          It is up to the DM.



          Unfortunately, both Careful Spell and Bones of the Earth are applying specific rules, overriding the general rules of the game. Determining which one wins is something that DMs are responsible for determining.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 7 hours ago

























          answered 8 hours ago









          Willem RenzemaWillem Renzema

          2,2571 gold badge8 silver badges21 bronze badges




          2,2571 gold badge8 silver badges21 bronze badges










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            You could provide your answer as to what happens when both apply as an answer to this question if you wanted: "If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?"
            $endgroup$
            – Medix2
            7 hours ago













          • 1




            $begingroup$
            You could provide your answer as to what happens when both apply as an answer to this question if you wanted: "If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?"
            $endgroup$
            – Medix2
            7 hours ago








          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          You could provide your answer as to what happens when both apply as an answer to this question if you wanted: "If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?"
          $endgroup$
          – Medix2
          7 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          You could provide your answer as to what happens when both apply as an answer to this question if you wanted: "If I apply the Careful Spell metamagic to a spell that a creature can choose to fail, and they do, what happens?"
          $endgroup$
          – Medix2
          7 hours ago


















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