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Would all these three things have the exact same effect on the flight duration of a glider?
Why would a glider have water ballast? If it is trying to stay aloft without an engine, wouldn't it be better to be as light as possible?What makes Airplane Fly? Does Bernoulli Principle still Reliable?Why would a glider have water ballast? If it is trying to stay aloft without an engine, wouldn't it be better to be as light as possible?Can I apply for ASEL and Glider class ratings at the same time?What is the effect of fuselage weight on a model glider?Is this paragraph about the dihedral effect in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook correct?What happens if only rudder is applied in a turn without ailerons? Do the two have to be applied together all the time?If all passengers moved to the back, front or one side, would they crash the plane?Are these questions really on the FAA Glider Commercial written test?In the US, would it ever be legal to fly a loop in any airplane or glider that was operating in the “utility” rather than “acrobatic” category?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
Consider a glider trimmed to fly at some given angle-of-attack, gliding in smooth air (no thermal convection, ridge lift, wave lift, etc.). If air density is somehow kept exactly constant in all cases, and the glider is launched from the same initial altitude relative to the ground in all cases, would the flight duration be the same in all three cases? (A yes/no question.)
Extra weight has been added to the glider, exactly at the CG, doubling the glider's weight.
We've increased the value of the gravitational constant from 9.8 m/s/s to a higher value (twice as high).
We've caused the earth (and atmosphere) to steadily accelerate straight “up”, at 9.8 m/s/s, thus creating an apparent increase in the gravitational constant (to an apparent value double the actual value). (Acceleration starts well before the glider is launched, not mid-flight. Glider is also accelerating along with everything else at instant of launch, i.e. the atmosphere isn't rushing up past the glider at the instant of launch. For example the glider could launch by rolling off a ramp mounted on a high tower connected to the ground.)
Also, if “yes”, then a second question — launched in equilibrium (exactly at its steady-state trim speed for the existing conditions) from a given height, would the glider stay up for a longer duration or a shorter duration after we've made one of these changes?
The intent of the question is to compare the steady-state in-flight dynamics, not some difference relating to some possible slight variation in the initial kinetic energy imparted at the instant of launch, etc. In each case, the glider is understood to be launched at its steady-state trim speed in relation to the existing conditions.
aircraft-physics glider sailplane
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider a glider trimmed to fly at some given angle-of-attack, gliding in smooth air (no thermal convection, ridge lift, wave lift, etc.). If air density is somehow kept exactly constant in all cases, and the glider is launched from the same initial altitude relative to the ground in all cases, would the flight duration be the same in all three cases? (A yes/no question.)
Extra weight has been added to the glider, exactly at the CG, doubling the glider's weight.
We've increased the value of the gravitational constant from 9.8 m/s/s to a higher value (twice as high).
We've caused the earth (and atmosphere) to steadily accelerate straight “up”, at 9.8 m/s/s, thus creating an apparent increase in the gravitational constant (to an apparent value double the actual value). (Acceleration starts well before the glider is launched, not mid-flight. Glider is also accelerating along with everything else at instant of launch, i.e. the atmosphere isn't rushing up past the glider at the instant of launch. For example the glider could launch by rolling off a ramp mounted on a high tower connected to the ground.)
Also, if “yes”, then a second question — launched in equilibrium (exactly at its steady-state trim speed for the existing conditions) from a given height, would the glider stay up for a longer duration or a shorter duration after we've made one of these changes?
The intent of the question is to compare the steady-state in-flight dynamics, not some difference relating to some possible slight variation in the initial kinetic energy imparted at the instant of launch, etc. In each case, the glider is understood to be launched at its steady-state trim speed in relation to the existing conditions.
aircraft-physics glider sailplane
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$begingroup$
Related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/66892/… , wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration ,
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/606/…
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
And just for more laughs-- wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Natl Geo on flat earth: youtube.com/watch?v=06bvdFK3vVU
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider a glider trimmed to fly at some given angle-of-attack, gliding in smooth air (no thermal convection, ridge lift, wave lift, etc.). If air density is somehow kept exactly constant in all cases, and the glider is launched from the same initial altitude relative to the ground in all cases, would the flight duration be the same in all three cases? (A yes/no question.)
Extra weight has been added to the glider, exactly at the CG, doubling the glider's weight.
We've increased the value of the gravitational constant from 9.8 m/s/s to a higher value (twice as high).
We've caused the earth (and atmosphere) to steadily accelerate straight “up”, at 9.8 m/s/s, thus creating an apparent increase in the gravitational constant (to an apparent value double the actual value). (Acceleration starts well before the glider is launched, not mid-flight. Glider is also accelerating along with everything else at instant of launch, i.e. the atmosphere isn't rushing up past the glider at the instant of launch. For example the glider could launch by rolling off a ramp mounted on a high tower connected to the ground.)
Also, if “yes”, then a second question — launched in equilibrium (exactly at its steady-state trim speed for the existing conditions) from a given height, would the glider stay up for a longer duration or a shorter duration after we've made one of these changes?
The intent of the question is to compare the steady-state in-flight dynamics, not some difference relating to some possible slight variation in the initial kinetic energy imparted at the instant of launch, etc. In each case, the glider is understood to be launched at its steady-state trim speed in relation to the existing conditions.
aircraft-physics glider sailplane
$endgroup$
Consider a glider trimmed to fly at some given angle-of-attack, gliding in smooth air (no thermal convection, ridge lift, wave lift, etc.). If air density is somehow kept exactly constant in all cases, and the glider is launched from the same initial altitude relative to the ground in all cases, would the flight duration be the same in all three cases? (A yes/no question.)
Extra weight has been added to the glider, exactly at the CG, doubling the glider's weight.
We've increased the value of the gravitational constant from 9.8 m/s/s to a higher value (twice as high).
We've caused the earth (and atmosphere) to steadily accelerate straight “up”, at 9.8 m/s/s, thus creating an apparent increase in the gravitational constant (to an apparent value double the actual value). (Acceleration starts well before the glider is launched, not mid-flight. Glider is also accelerating along with everything else at instant of launch, i.e. the atmosphere isn't rushing up past the glider at the instant of launch. For example the glider could launch by rolling off a ramp mounted on a high tower connected to the ground.)
Also, if “yes”, then a second question — launched in equilibrium (exactly at its steady-state trim speed for the existing conditions) from a given height, would the glider stay up for a longer duration or a shorter duration after we've made one of these changes?
The intent of the question is to compare the steady-state in-flight dynamics, not some difference relating to some possible slight variation in the initial kinetic energy imparted at the instant of launch, etc. In each case, the glider is understood to be launched at its steady-state trim speed in relation to the existing conditions.
aircraft-physics glider sailplane
aircraft-physics glider sailplane
edited 8 hours ago
MarianD
1291 gold badge1 silver badge5 bronze badges
1291 gold badge1 silver badge5 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
quiet flyerquiet flyer
4,1767 silver badges42 bronze badges
4,1767 silver badges42 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/66892/… , wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration ,
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/606/…
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
And just for more laughs-- wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Natl Geo on flat earth: youtube.com/watch?v=06bvdFK3vVU
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/66892/… , wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration ,
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/606/…
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
And just for more laughs-- wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Natl Geo on flat earth: youtube.com/watch?v=06bvdFK3vVU
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/66892/… , wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration ,
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/66892/… , wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration ,
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/606/…
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/606/…
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
And just for more laughs-- wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
And just for more laughs-- wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Natl Geo on flat earth: youtube.com/watch?v=06bvdFK3vVU
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Natl Geo on flat earth: youtube.com/watch?v=06bvdFK3vVU
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Scenarios 2 and 3 would be almost exactly the same. Scenario 1 would be very different. However, the glider would be able to stay up for almost exactly the same amount of time in all three scenarios.
The basic summary of what would happen: In scenario 1, both the weight and the mass would be doubled. In scenarios 2 and 3, the weight would be doubled but the mass would remain the same.
The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at $1 g$, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at $2 g$.
Scenarios 2 and 3, on the other hand, are almost completely identical. Specifically:
Scenario 2 simply adds more gravity. Pretty straightforward.
Scenario 3 consists of having the ground accelerate "up" at $1 g$. We can look at this scenario in a frame of reference where the ground remains stationary. In this frame of reference, everything is just like the real world, except that everything is now experiencing an inertial force equal to $1 g$ straight down.
How does an inertial force work? Inertial forces feel just like gravity. In fact, the only differences between the extra forces in the two scenarios are:
- In scenario 2, the direction of the extra force changes as you move horizontally, because the direction of "down" changes as you move. In scenario 3, the extra force is in the same direction everywhere: namely, the direction opposite the direction of acceleration.
- In scenario 2, the extra force gets weaker as you get farther away from the earth. In scenario 3, the extra force is equally strong everywhere.
Both of these differences are probably too small to measure.
Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. This is because, although the mass of the glider differs between the three scenarios, its weight is the same in all three scenarios. And if the glider is flying at a constant speed in a straight line, weight is the only quantity that matters; mass is now irrelevant, because the glider is not accelerating (in the frame of reference where the earth is stationary).
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$begingroup$
Hope I didn't change the question on you before you answered; I suspect we were both typing at the same time.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
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For example the original question said "flight characteristics" which might include some up and down maneuvers but the intent was still to look at the steady-state glide only; the final version is more consistent with that. Good points about the mass difference. Can roll back if needed to something that still references "flight characteristics" or you could mod your answer to still reference the difference in flight characteristics as a point of interest.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Actually I feel your answer is still perfectly fine given the existing state of the question as you explicitly said "Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. "
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looks like I just forgot which scenario was 2 and which was 3; I'll fix my answer now.
$endgroup$
– Tanner Swett
8 hours ago
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"The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at 1 g1 g, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at 2 g2 g." -- I'm not actually quite sure this is true. I think starting in steady-state flight and then pitching straight down, all three will hit the ground at the same time. Although no longer strictly related to the yes/no question asked, I'd be interested to know if you change your mind on this part after some further reflection.
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– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
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A good day to do some maths.
Regardless of weight, to maximize glide time, we seek minimum sink rate. For the classical lifting line theory and ignoring trim drag, Reynolds number, effects, this corresponds to $C_L=sqrtfracC_D_0K$ and $C_D=2C_D_0$. Now, the sink rate for a given weight would be:
$$dotz=-fracDVW=-2C_D_0^frac14sqrtfracWfrac12rho SK^3/4$$
If we increase the mass twice, weight increases twice. So yes, it changes your flight time. It is shortened, as per our intuition.
If we increase gravity to twice its normal value, we increase weight twice. Same conclusion as #1. But, this hinges on the assumption that somehow density stays constant. In reality, if gravity is twice as heavy, density would be wildly different, and so would the atmosphere.
If everything is being accelerated at -g, then we haven't increased gravity. We've reversed it. Again, if we assume density is constant, then nothing special would happen. Your glide time would be the same as your original airplane. However, if gravity is reversed, then density gradient should also be inverted, in a rational scenario.
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Re number 3, The ground is accelerating upwards, which will indirectly have an effect on the atmosphere and everything contained within it. The plane is initially launched from a ramp on a tower connected to the ground.
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– quiet flyer
24 mins ago
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@quietflyer I think you are commenting about #3. If everything is being accelerated at the same amount, and assuming that ground is being held rigid (i.e. not disintegrating), then the ground itself will have no effect on the atmosphere. This is assuming steady-state in your fictitious world.
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– Jimmy
19 mins ago
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@quietflyer Not sure what the comment about the initial launch point has to do with your question. I'm assuming you've a fixed vertical height to mark start and end in all three scenarios.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
#3 yes. All gliders start at given height above the ground, and the end is when they hit the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
5 mins ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Scenarios 2 and 3 would be almost exactly the same. Scenario 1 would be very different. However, the glider would be able to stay up for almost exactly the same amount of time in all three scenarios.
The basic summary of what would happen: In scenario 1, both the weight and the mass would be doubled. In scenarios 2 and 3, the weight would be doubled but the mass would remain the same.
The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at $1 g$, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at $2 g$.
Scenarios 2 and 3, on the other hand, are almost completely identical. Specifically:
Scenario 2 simply adds more gravity. Pretty straightforward.
Scenario 3 consists of having the ground accelerate "up" at $1 g$. We can look at this scenario in a frame of reference where the ground remains stationary. In this frame of reference, everything is just like the real world, except that everything is now experiencing an inertial force equal to $1 g$ straight down.
How does an inertial force work? Inertial forces feel just like gravity. In fact, the only differences between the extra forces in the two scenarios are:
- In scenario 2, the direction of the extra force changes as you move horizontally, because the direction of "down" changes as you move. In scenario 3, the extra force is in the same direction everywhere: namely, the direction opposite the direction of acceleration.
- In scenario 2, the extra force gets weaker as you get farther away from the earth. In scenario 3, the extra force is equally strong everywhere.
Both of these differences are probably too small to measure.
Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. This is because, although the mass of the glider differs between the three scenarios, its weight is the same in all three scenarios. And if the glider is flying at a constant speed in a straight line, weight is the only quantity that matters; mass is now irrelevant, because the glider is not accelerating (in the frame of reference where the earth is stationary).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Hope I didn't change the question on you before you answered; I suspect we were both typing at the same time.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
For example the original question said "flight characteristics" which might include some up and down maneuvers but the intent was still to look at the steady-state glide only; the final version is more consistent with that. Good points about the mass difference. Can roll back if needed to something that still references "flight characteristics" or you could mod your answer to still reference the difference in flight characteristics as a point of interest.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Actually I feel your answer is still perfectly fine given the existing state of the question as you explicitly said "Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. "
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looks like I just forgot which scenario was 2 and which was 3; I'll fix my answer now.
$endgroup$
– Tanner Swett
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
"The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at 1 g1 g, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at 2 g2 g." -- I'm not actually quite sure this is true. I think starting in steady-state flight and then pitching straight down, all three will hit the ground at the same time. Although no longer strictly related to the yes/no question asked, I'd be interested to know if you change your mind on this part after some further reflection.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
Scenarios 2 and 3 would be almost exactly the same. Scenario 1 would be very different. However, the glider would be able to stay up for almost exactly the same amount of time in all three scenarios.
The basic summary of what would happen: In scenario 1, both the weight and the mass would be doubled. In scenarios 2 and 3, the weight would be doubled but the mass would remain the same.
The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at $1 g$, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at $2 g$.
Scenarios 2 and 3, on the other hand, are almost completely identical. Specifically:
Scenario 2 simply adds more gravity. Pretty straightforward.
Scenario 3 consists of having the ground accelerate "up" at $1 g$. We can look at this scenario in a frame of reference where the ground remains stationary. In this frame of reference, everything is just like the real world, except that everything is now experiencing an inertial force equal to $1 g$ straight down.
How does an inertial force work? Inertial forces feel just like gravity. In fact, the only differences between the extra forces in the two scenarios are:
- In scenario 2, the direction of the extra force changes as you move horizontally, because the direction of "down" changes as you move. In scenario 3, the extra force is in the same direction everywhere: namely, the direction opposite the direction of acceleration.
- In scenario 2, the extra force gets weaker as you get farther away from the earth. In scenario 3, the extra force is equally strong everywhere.
Both of these differences are probably too small to measure.
Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. This is because, although the mass of the glider differs between the three scenarios, its weight is the same in all three scenarios. And if the glider is flying at a constant speed in a straight line, weight is the only quantity that matters; mass is now irrelevant, because the glider is not accelerating (in the frame of reference where the earth is stationary).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Hope I didn't change the question on you before you answered; I suspect we were both typing at the same time.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
For example the original question said "flight characteristics" which might include some up and down maneuvers but the intent was still to look at the steady-state glide only; the final version is more consistent with that. Good points about the mass difference. Can roll back if needed to something that still references "flight characteristics" or you could mod your answer to still reference the difference in flight characteristics as a point of interest.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Actually I feel your answer is still perfectly fine given the existing state of the question as you explicitly said "Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. "
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looks like I just forgot which scenario was 2 and which was 3; I'll fix my answer now.
$endgroup$
– Tanner Swett
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
"The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at 1 g1 g, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at 2 g2 g." -- I'm not actually quite sure this is true. I think starting in steady-state flight and then pitching straight down, all three will hit the ground at the same time. Although no longer strictly related to the yes/no question asked, I'd be interested to know if you change your mind on this part after some further reflection.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
Scenarios 2 and 3 would be almost exactly the same. Scenario 1 would be very different. However, the glider would be able to stay up for almost exactly the same amount of time in all three scenarios.
The basic summary of what would happen: In scenario 1, both the weight and the mass would be doubled. In scenarios 2 and 3, the weight would be doubled but the mass would remain the same.
The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at $1 g$, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at $2 g$.
Scenarios 2 and 3, on the other hand, are almost completely identical. Specifically:
Scenario 2 simply adds more gravity. Pretty straightforward.
Scenario 3 consists of having the ground accelerate "up" at $1 g$. We can look at this scenario in a frame of reference where the ground remains stationary. In this frame of reference, everything is just like the real world, except that everything is now experiencing an inertial force equal to $1 g$ straight down.
How does an inertial force work? Inertial forces feel just like gravity. In fact, the only differences between the extra forces in the two scenarios are:
- In scenario 2, the direction of the extra force changes as you move horizontally, because the direction of "down" changes as you move. In scenario 3, the extra force is in the same direction everywhere: namely, the direction opposite the direction of acceleration.
- In scenario 2, the extra force gets weaker as you get farther away from the earth. In scenario 3, the extra force is equally strong everywhere.
Both of these differences are probably too small to measure.
Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. This is because, although the mass of the glider differs between the three scenarios, its weight is the same in all three scenarios. And if the glider is flying at a constant speed in a straight line, weight is the only quantity that matters; mass is now irrelevant, because the glider is not accelerating (in the frame of reference where the earth is stationary).
$endgroup$
Scenarios 2 and 3 would be almost exactly the same. Scenario 1 would be very different. However, the glider would be able to stay up for almost exactly the same amount of time in all three scenarios.
The basic summary of what would happen: In scenario 1, both the weight and the mass would be doubled. In scenarios 2 and 3, the weight would be doubled but the mass would remain the same.
The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at $1 g$, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at $2 g$.
Scenarios 2 and 3, on the other hand, are almost completely identical. Specifically:
Scenario 2 simply adds more gravity. Pretty straightforward.
Scenario 3 consists of having the ground accelerate "up" at $1 g$. We can look at this scenario in a frame of reference where the ground remains stationary. In this frame of reference, everything is just like the real world, except that everything is now experiencing an inertial force equal to $1 g$ straight down.
How does an inertial force work? Inertial forces feel just like gravity. In fact, the only differences between the extra forces in the two scenarios are:
- In scenario 2, the direction of the extra force changes as you move horizontally, because the direction of "down" changes as you move. In scenario 3, the extra force is in the same direction everywhere: namely, the direction opposite the direction of acceleration.
- In scenario 2, the extra force gets weaker as you get farther away from the earth. In scenario 3, the extra force is equally strong everywhere.
Both of these differences are probably too small to measure.
Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. This is because, although the mass of the glider differs between the three scenarios, its weight is the same in all three scenarios. And if the glider is flying at a constant speed in a straight line, weight is the only quantity that matters; mass is now irrelevant, because the glider is not accelerating (in the frame of reference where the earth is stationary).
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Tanner SwettTanner Swett
2,9751 gold badge12 silver badges37 bronze badges
2,9751 gold badge12 silver badges37 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Hope I didn't change the question on you before you answered; I suspect we were both typing at the same time.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
For example the original question said "flight characteristics" which might include some up and down maneuvers but the intent was still to look at the steady-state glide only; the final version is more consistent with that. Good points about the mass difference. Can roll back if needed to something that still references "flight characteristics" or you could mod your answer to still reference the difference in flight characteristics as a point of interest.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Actually I feel your answer is still perfectly fine given the existing state of the question as you explicitly said "Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. "
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looks like I just forgot which scenario was 2 and which was 3; I'll fix my answer now.
$endgroup$
– Tanner Swett
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
"The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at 1 g1 g, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at 2 g2 g." -- I'm not actually quite sure this is true. I think starting in steady-state flight and then pitching straight down, all three will hit the ground at the same time. Although no longer strictly related to the yes/no question asked, I'd be interested to know if you change your mind on this part after some further reflection.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
Hope I didn't change the question on you before you answered; I suspect we were both typing at the same time.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
For example the original question said "flight characteristics" which might include some up and down maneuvers but the intent was still to look at the steady-state glide only; the final version is more consistent with that. Good points about the mass difference. Can roll back if needed to something that still references "flight characteristics" or you could mod your answer to still reference the difference in flight characteristics as a point of interest.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Actually I feel your answer is still perfectly fine given the existing state of the question as you explicitly said "Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. "
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looks like I just forgot which scenario was 2 and which was 3; I'll fix my answer now.
$endgroup$
– Tanner Swett
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
"The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at 1 g1 g, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at 2 g2 g." -- I'm not actually quite sure this is true. I think starting in steady-state flight and then pitching straight down, all three will hit the ground at the same time. Although no longer strictly related to the yes/no question asked, I'd be interested to know if you change your mind on this part after some further reflection.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Hope I didn't change the question on you before you answered; I suspect we were both typing at the same time.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Hope I didn't change the question on you before you answered; I suspect we were both typing at the same time.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
For example the original question said "flight characteristics" which might include some up and down maneuvers but the intent was still to look at the steady-state glide only; the final version is more consistent with that. Good points about the mass difference. Can roll back if needed to something that still references "flight characteristics" or you could mod your answer to still reference the difference in flight characteristics as a point of interest.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
For example the original question said "flight characteristics" which might include some up and down maneuvers but the intent was still to look at the steady-state glide only; the final version is more consistent with that. Good points about the mass difference. Can roll back if needed to something that still references "flight characteristics" or you could mod your answer to still reference the difference in flight characteristics as a point of interest.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Actually I feel your answer is still perfectly fine given the existing state of the question as you explicitly said "Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. "
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Actually I feel your answer is still perfectly fine given the existing state of the question as you explicitly said "Now, finally, I said that the glider will be able to stay up for the same amount of time in all three scenarios. "
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looks like I just forgot which scenario was 2 and which was 3; I'll fix my answer now.
$endgroup$
– Tanner Swett
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looks like I just forgot which scenario was 2 and which was 3; I'll fix my answer now.
$endgroup$
– Tanner Swett
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
"The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at 1 g1 g, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at 2 g2 g." -- I'm not actually quite sure this is true. I think starting in steady-state flight and then pitching straight down, all three will hit the ground at the same time. Although no longer strictly related to the yes/no question asked, I'd be interested to know if you change your mind on this part after some further reflection.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
"The simplest way to distinguish scenario 1 from the others is to pitch into a vertical climb (or a vertical dive). In scenario 1, the glider will accelerate downwards at 1 g1 g, but in scenarios 2 and 3, it'll accelerate downwards at 2 g2 g." -- I'm not actually quite sure this is true. I think starting in steady-state flight and then pitching straight down, all three will hit the ground at the same time. Although no longer strictly related to the yes/no question asked, I'd be interested to know if you change your mind on this part after some further reflection.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
A good day to do some maths.
Regardless of weight, to maximize glide time, we seek minimum sink rate. For the classical lifting line theory and ignoring trim drag, Reynolds number, effects, this corresponds to $C_L=sqrtfracC_D_0K$ and $C_D=2C_D_0$. Now, the sink rate for a given weight would be:
$$dotz=-fracDVW=-2C_D_0^frac14sqrtfracWfrac12rho SK^3/4$$
If we increase the mass twice, weight increases twice. So yes, it changes your flight time. It is shortened, as per our intuition.
If we increase gravity to twice its normal value, we increase weight twice. Same conclusion as #1. But, this hinges on the assumption that somehow density stays constant. In reality, if gravity is twice as heavy, density would be wildly different, and so would the atmosphere.
If everything is being accelerated at -g, then we haven't increased gravity. We've reversed it. Again, if we assume density is constant, then nothing special would happen. Your glide time would be the same as your original airplane. However, if gravity is reversed, then density gradient should also be inverted, in a rational scenario.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Re number 3, The ground is accelerating upwards, which will indirectly have an effect on the atmosphere and everything contained within it. The plane is initially launched from a ramp on a tower connected to the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer I think you are commenting about #3. If everything is being accelerated at the same amount, and assuming that ground is being held rigid (i.e. not disintegrating), then the ground itself will have no effect on the atmosphere. This is assuming steady-state in your fictitious world.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer Not sure what the comment about the initial launch point has to do with your question. I'm assuming you've a fixed vertical height to mark start and end in all three scenarios.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
#3 yes. All gliders start at given height above the ground, and the end is when they hit the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
5 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A good day to do some maths.
Regardless of weight, to maximize glide time, we seek minimum sink rate. For the classical lifting line theory and ignoring trim drag, Reynolds number, effects, this corresponds to $C_L=sqrtfracC_D_0K$ and $C_D=2C_D_0$. Now, the sink rate for a given weight would be:
$$dotz=-fracDVW=-2C_D_0^frac14sqrtfracWfrac12rho SK^3/4$$
If we increase the mass twice, weight increases twice. So yes, it changes your flight time. It is shortened, as per our intuition.
If we increase gravity to twice its normal value, we increase weight twice. Same conclusion as #1. But, this hinges on the assumption that somehow density stays constant. In reality, if gravity is twice as heavy, density would be wildly different, and so would the atmosphere.
If everything is being accelerated at -g, then we haven't increased gravity. We've reversed it. Again, if we assume density is constant, then nothing special would happen. Your glide time would be the same as your original airplane. However, if gravity is reversed, then density gradient should also be inverted, in a rational scenario.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Re number 3, The ground is accelerating upwards, which will indirectly have an effect on the atmosphere and everything contained within it. The plane is initially launched from a ramp on a tower connected to the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer I think you are commenting about #3. If everything is being accelerated at the same amount, and assuming that ground is being held rigid (i.e. not disintegrating), then the ground itself will have no effect on the atmosphere. This is assuming steady-state in your fictitious world.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer Not sure what the comment about the initial launch point has to do with your question. I'm assuming you've a fixed vertical height to mark start and end in all three scenarios.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
#3 yes. All gliders start at given height above the ground, and the end is when they hit the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
5 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A good day to do some maths.
Regardless of weight, to maximize glide time, we seek minimum sink rate. For the classical lifting line theory and ignoring trim drag, Reynolds number, effects, this corresponds to $C_L=sqrtfracC_D_0K$ and $C_D=2C_D_0$. Now, the sink rate for a given weight would be:
$$dotz=-fracDVW=-2C_D_0^frac14sqrtfracWfrac12rho SK^3/4$$
If we increase the mass twice, weight increases twice. So yes, it changes your flight time. It is shortened, as per our intuition.
If we increase gravity to twice its normal value, we increase weight twice. Same conclusion as #1. But, this hinges on the assumption that somehow density stays constant. In reality, if gravity is twice as heavy, density would be wildly different, and so would the atmosphere.
If everything is being accelerated at -g, then we haven't increased gravity. We've reversed it. Again, if we assume density is constant, then nothing special would happen. Your glide time would be the same as your original airplane. However, if gravity is reversed, then density gradient should also be inverted, in a rational scenario.
$endgroup$
A good day to do some maths.
Regardless of weight, to maximize glide time, we seek minimum sink rate. For the classical lifting line theory and ignoring trim drag, Reynolds number, effects, this corresponds to $C_L=sqrtfracC_D_0K$ and $C_D=2C_D_0$. Now, the sink rate for a given weight would be:
$$dotz=-fracDVW=-2C_D_0^frac14sqrtfracWfrac12rho SK^3/4$$
If we increase the mass twice, weight increases twice. So yes, it changes your flight time. It is shortened, as per our intuition.
If we increase gravity to twice its normal value, we increase weight twice. Same conclusion as #1. But, this hinges on the assumption that somehow density stays constant. In reality, if gravity is twice as heavy, density would be wildly different, and so would the atmosphere.
If everything is being accelerated at -g, then we haven't increased gravity. We've reversed it. Again, if we assume density is constant, then nothing special would happen. Your glide time would be the same as your original airplane. However, if gravity is reversed, then density gradient should also be inverted, in a rational scenario.
edited 24 mins ago
answered 30 mins ago
JimmyJimmy
8161 silver badge12 bronze badges
8161 silver badge12 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Re number 3, The ground is accelerating upwards, which will indirectly have an effect on the atmosphere and everything contained within it. The plane is initially launched from a ramp on a tower connected to the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer I think you are commenting about #3. If everything is being accelerated at the same amount, and assuming that ground is being held rigid (i.e. not disintegrating), then the ground itself will have no effect on the atmosphere. This is assuming steady-state in your fictitious world.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer Not sure what the comment about the initial launch point has to do with your question. I'm assuming you've a fixed vertical height to mark start and end in all three scenarios.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
#3 yes. All gliders start at given height above the ground, and the end is when they hit the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
5 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Re number 3, The ground is accelerating upwards, which will indirectly have an effect on the atmosphere and everything contained within it. The plane is initially launched from a ramp on a tower connected to the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer I think you are commenting about #3. If everything is being accelerated at the same amount, and assuming that ground is being held rigid (i.e. not disintegrating), then the ground itself will have no effect on the atmosphere. This is assuming steady-state in your fictitious world.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer Not sure what the comment about the initial launch point has to do with your question. I'm assuming you've a fixed vertical height to mark start and end in all three scenarios.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
#3 yes. All gliders start at given height above the ground, and the end is when they hit the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
5 mins ago
$begingroup$
Re number 3, The ground is accelerating upwards, which will indirectly have an effect on the atmosphere and everything contained within it. The plane is initially launched from a ramp on a tower connected to the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
Re number 3, The ground is accelerating upwards, which will indirectly have an effect on the atmosphere and everything contained within it. The plane is initially launched from a ramp on a tower connected to the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
24 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer I think you are commenting about #3. If everything is being accelerated at the same amount, and assuming that ground is being held rigid (i.e. not disintegrating), then the ground itself will have no effect on the atmosphere. This is assuming steady-state in your fictitious world.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer I think you are commenting about #3. If everything is being accelerated at the same amount, and assuming that ground is being held rigid (i.e. not disintegrating), then the ground itself will have no effect on the atmosphere. This is assuming steady-state in your fictitious world.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer Not sure what the comment about the initial launch point has to do with your question. I'm assuming you've a fixed vertical height to mark start and end in all three scenarios.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
@quietflyer Not sure what the comment about the initial launch point has to do with your question. I'm assuming you've a fixed vertical height to mark start and end in all three scenarios.
$endgroup$
– Jimmy
16 mins ago
$begingroup$
#3 yes. All gliders start at given height above the ground, and the end is when they hit the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
5 mins ago
$begingroup$
#3 yes. All gliders start at given height above the ground, and the end is when they hit the ground.
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
5 mins ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/66892/… , wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration ,
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also related: aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/606/…
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
And just for more laughs-- wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Natl Geo on flat earth: youtube.com/watch?v=06bvdFK3vVU
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
6 hours ago