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Why don't humans perceive sound waves as twice the frequency they are?
Deriving the group velocity of a wave produced by some basic cosine waves with unequal amplitudesUsing sinusoids to represent sound wavesFrequency of Sound WavesWhy do we hear the square of the wave?Why are sound waves adiabatic?Are two waves coherent iff they have the same frequency?Pound-Drever-Hall frequency stabilisation techniqueSound waves: frequency, speed, and wavelengthMultivariable Chain-Rule in Wave-Energy EquationsCan humans hear transverse sound waves?
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$begingroup$
I was reading about how at how acoustic beats work.
If we combine two waves with frequencies $f_1$ and $f_2$ and unit amplitude, their combination is
$$
beginalign
A
&= cosleft(2pi f_1xright) + cosleft(2pi f_2xright) \[10px]
&= 2cosleft(2pi , fracf_1-f_22,xright)cosleft(2pi , fracf_1+f_22 , xright) ,.
endalign
$$
According to "Beat (acoustics)", Wikipedia:
Because the human ear is not sensitive to the phase of a sound, only its amplitude or intensity, only the magnitude of the envelope is heard.
So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope (since you're squaring it) and you get $$f_textaudible = f_1-f_2$$and not half that.
Now consider a regular cosine wave $A = cosleft(2pi f_Tright)$ with frequency $f_T$. Taking the magnitude (as Wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring $A$) gives you an audible frequency of $2f_T$... so do people hear frequencies as twice what they are in their amplitude wave?
waves acoustics frequency perception
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was reading about how at how acoustic beats work.
If we combine two waves with frequencies $f_1$ and $f_2$ and unit amplitude, their combination is
$$
beginalign
A
&= cosleft(2pi f_1xright) + cosleft(2pi f_2xright) \[10px]
&= 2cosleft(2pi , fracf_1-f_22,xright)cosleft(2pi , fracf_1+f_22 , xright) ,.
endalign
$$
According to "Beat (acoustics)", Wikipedia:
Because the human ear is not sensitive to the phase of a sound, only its amplitude or intensity, only the magnitude of the envelope is heard.
So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope (since you're squaring it) and you get $$f_textaudible = f_1-f_2$$and not half that.
Now consider a regular cosine wave $A = cosleft(2pi f_Tright)$ with frequency $f_T$. Taking the magnitude (as Wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring $A$) gives you an audible frequency of $2f_T$... so do people hear frequencies as twice what they are in their amplitude wave?
waves acoustics frequency perception
New contributor
$endgroup$
20
$begingroup$
If they did, how could you measure it?
$endgroup$
– immibis
yesterday
6
$begingroup$
If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
$endgroup$
– Flater
21 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
19 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
$endgroup$
– TKK
13 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was reading about how at how acoustic beats work.
If we combine two waves with frequencies $f_1$ and $f_2$ and unit amplitude, their combination is
$$
beginalign
A
&= cosleft(2pi f_1xright) + cosleft(2pi f_2xright) \[10px]
&= 2cosleft(2pi , fracf_1-f_22,xright)cosleft(2pi , fracf_1+f_22 , xright) ,.
endalign
$$
According to "Beat (acoustics)", Wikipedia:
Because the human ear is not sensitive to the phase of a sound, only its amplitude or intensity, only the magnitude of the envelope is heard.
So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope (since you're squaring it) and you get $$f_textaudible = f_1-f_2$$and not half that.
Now consider a regular cosine wave $A = cosleft(2pi f_Tright)$ with frequency $f_T$. Taking the magnitude (as Wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring $A$) gives you an audible frequency of $2f_T$... so do people hear frequencies as twice what they are in their amplitude wave?
waves acoustics frequency perception
New contributor
$endgroup$
I was reading about how at how acoustic beats work.
If we combine two waves with frequencies $f_1$ and $f_2$ and unit amplitude, their combination is
$$
beginalign
A
&= cosleft(2pi f_1xright) + cosleft(2pi f_2xright) \[10px]
&= 2cosleft(2pi , fracf_1-f_22,xright)cosleft(2pi , fracf_1+f_22 , xright) ,.
endalign
$$
According to "Beat (acoustics)", Wikipedia:
Because the human ear is not sensitive to the phase of a sound, only its amplitude or intensity, only the magnitude of the envelope is heard.
So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope (since you're squaring it) and you get $$f_textaudible = f_1-f_2$$and not half that.
Now consider a regular cosine wave $A = cosleft(2pi f_Tright)$ with frequency $f_T$. Taking the magnitude (as Wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring $A$) gives you an audible frequency of $2f_T$... so do people hear frequencies as twice what they are in their amplitude wave?
waves acoustics frequency perception
waves acoustics frequency perception
New contributor
New contributor
edited 8 mins ago
Nat
3,8274 gold badges20 silver badges33 bronze badges
3,8274 gold badges20 silver badges33 bronze badges
New contributor
asked yesterday
Mondo DukeMondo Duke
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421 silver badge4 bronze badges
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20
$begingroup$
If they did, how could you measure it?
$endgroup$
– immibis
yesterday
6
$begingroup$
If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
$endgroup$
– Flater
21 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
19 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
$endgroup$
– TKK
13 hours ago
add a comment |
20
$begingroup$
If they did, how could you measure it?
$endgroup$
– immibis
yesterday
6
$begingroup$
If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
$endgroup$
– Flater
21 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
19 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
@ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
$endgroup$
– TKK
13 hours ago
20
20
$begingroup$
If they did, how could you measure it?
$endgroup$
– immibis
yesterday
$begingroup$
If they did, how could you measure it?
$endgroup$
– immibis
yesterday
6
6
$begingroup$
If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
$endgroup$
– Flater
21 hours ago
$begingroup$
If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
$endgroup$
– Flater
21 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
19 hours ago
$begingroup$
We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
19 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
@ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
$endgroup$
– TKK
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
$endgroup$
– TKK
13 hours ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.
We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.
It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
$endgroup$
– Mondo Duke
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
14
$begingroup$
We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope
Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.
"Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.
Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
an audible frequency of 2fT
No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
$endgroup$
– Vaelus
15 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.
The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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4 Answers
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active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
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votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.
We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.
It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
$endgroup$
– Mondo Duke
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
14
$begingroup$
We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.
We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.
It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
$endgroup$
– Mondo Duke
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
14
$begingroup$
We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.
We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.
It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.
$endgroup$
Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.
We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.
It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.
answered yesterday
Cort AmmonCort Ammon
26.6k4 gold badges57 silver badges90 bronze badges
26.6k4 gold badges57 silver badges90 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
$endgroup$
– Mondo Duke
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
14
$begingroup$
We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
$endgroup$
– Mondo Duke
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
14
$begingroup$
We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
yesterday
$begingroup$
Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
$begingroup$
Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
$endgroup$
– Pieter
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
$endgroup$
– Mondo Duke
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
$endgroup$
– Mondo Duke
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
@MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
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– Pieter
yesterday
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@MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
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– Pieter
yesterday
14
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We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
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– Cort Ammon
yesterday
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We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
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– Cort Ammon
yesterday
2
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Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
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– Aaron Stevens
yesterday
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Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
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– Aaron Stevens
yesterday
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show 2 more comments
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So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope
Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.
"Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.
Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
an audible frequency of 2fT
No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.
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1
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Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
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– Vaelus
15 hours ago
add a comment |
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So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope
Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.
"Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.
Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
an audible frequency of 2fT
No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.
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1
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Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
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– Vaelus
15 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope
Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.
"Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.
Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
an audible frequency of 2fT
No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.
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So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope
Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.
"Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.
Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
an audible frequency of 2fT
No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.
answered yesterday
HilmarHilmar
1,1546 silver badges8 bronze badges
1,1546 silver badges8 bronze badges
1
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Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
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– Vaelus
15 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
$endgroup$
– Vaelus
15 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
$endgroup$
– Vaelus
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
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– Vaelus
15 hours ago
add a comment |
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The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.
The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.
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add a comment |
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The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.
The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.
The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.
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The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.
The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.
answered 12 hours ago
AcccumulationAcccumulation
4,1317 silver badges16 bronze badges
4,1317 silver badges16 bronze badges
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The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.
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add a comment |
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The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.
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The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.
answered 20 hours ago
Dmitry GrigoryevDmitry Grigoryev
3,0551 gold badge8 silver badges25 bronze badges
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Mondo Duke is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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If they did, how could you measure it?
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– immibis
yesterday
6
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If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
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– Flater
21 hours ago
3
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We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
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– OrangeDog
19 hours ago
3
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@ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
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– TKK
13 hours ago