Why don't humans perceive sound waves as twice the frequency they are?Deriving the group velocity of a wave produced by some basic cosine waves with unequal amplitudesUsing sinusoids to represent sound wavesFrequency of Sound WavesWhy do we hear the square of the wave?Why are sound waves adiabatic?Are two waves coherent iff they have the same frequency?Pound-Drever-Hall frequency stabilisation techniqueSound waves: frequency, speed, and wavelengthMultivariable Chain-Rule in Wave-Energy EquationsCan humans hear transverse sound waves?

Do higher dimensions have axes?

Did Hitler say this quote about homeschooling?

Why teach C using scanf without talking about command line arguments?

How many opportunity attacks can you make per turn before becoming exhausted?

Why is an object not defined as identity morphism?

Align the contents of a numerical matrix when you have minus signs

Diagram of Methods to Solve Differential Equations

How much solution to fill Paterson Universal Tank when developing film?

Three Subway Escalators

Are there any satellites in geosynchronous but not geostationary orbits?

How can I automate this tensor computation?

"This used to be my phone number"

What is this green alien supposed to be on the American covers of the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"?

"Je suis petite, moi?", purpose of the "moi"?

In this iconic lunar orbit rendezvous photo of John Houbolt, why do arrows #5 and #6 point the "wrong" way?

Should I have shared a document with a former employee?

Last-minute canceled work-trip mean I'll lose thousands of dollars on planned vacation

🍩🔔🔥Scrambled emoji tale⚛️🎶🛒 #2️⃣

Why aren't there any women super GMs?

Don't individual signal sources affect each other when using a summing amplifier?

Company looks for long-term employees, but I know I won't be interested in staying long

Authorship dispute on a paper that came out of a final report of a course?

Do medium format lenses have a crop factor?

Operation Unzalgo



Why don't humans perceive sound waves as twice the frequency they are?


Deriving the group velocity of a wave produced by some basic cosine waves with unequal amplitudesUsing sinusoids to represent sound wavesFrequency of Sound WavesWhy do we hear the square of the wave?Why are sound waves adiabatic?Are two waves coherent iff they have the same frequency?Pound-Drever-Hall frequency stabilisation techniqueSound waves: frequency, speed, and wavelengthMultivariable Chain-Rule in Wave-Energy EquationsCan humans hear transverse sound waves?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








6












$begingroup$


I was reading about how at how acoustic beats work.



If we combine two waves with frequencies $f_1$ and $f_2$ and unit amplitude, their combination is
$$
beginalign
A
&= cosleft(2pi f_1xright) + cosleft(2pi f_2xright) \[10px]
&= 2cosleft(2pi , fracf_1-f_22,xright)cosleft(2pi , fracf_1+f_22 , xright) ,.
endalign
$$



According to "Beat (acoustics)", Wikipedia:




Because the human ear is not sensitive to the phase of a sound, only its amplitude or intensity, only the magnitude of the envelope is heard.




So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope (since you're squaring it) and you get $$f_textaudible = f_1-f_2$$and not half that.



Now consider a regular cosine wave $A = cosleft(2pi f_Tright)$ with frequency $f_T$. Taking the magnitude (as Wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring $A$) gives you an audible frequency of $2f_T$... so do people hear frequencies as twice what they are in their amplitude wave?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



Mondo Duke is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$







  • 20




    $begingroup$
    If they did, how could you measure it?
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    yesterday






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
    $endgroup$
    – Flater
    21 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
    $endgroup$
    – OrangeDog
    19 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
    $endgroup$
    – TKK
    13 hours ago

















6












$begingroup$


I was reading about how at how acoustic beats work.



If we combine two waves with frequencies $f_1$ and $f_2$ and unit amplitude, their combination is
$$
beginalign
A
&= cosleft(2pi f_1xright) + cosleft(2pi f_2xright) \[10px]
&= 2cosleft(2pi , fracf_1-f_22,xright)cosleft(2pi , fracf_1+f_22 , xright) ,.
endalign
$$



According to "Beat (acoustics)", Wikipedia:




Because the human ear is not sensitive to the phase of a sound, only its amplitude or intensity, only the magnitude of the envelope is heard.




So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope (since you're squaring it) and you get $$f_textaudible = f_1-f_2$$and not half that.



Now consider a regular cosine wave $A = cosleft(2pi f_Tright)$ with frequency $f_T$. Taking the magnitude (as Wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring $A$) gives you an audible frequency of $2f_T$... so do people hear frequencies as twice what they are in their amplitude wave?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



Mondo Duke is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$







  • 20




    $begingroup$
    If they did, how could you measure it?
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    yesterday






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
    $endgroup$
    – Flater
    21 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
    $endgroup$
    – OrangeDog
    19 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
    $endgroup$
    – TKK
    13 hours ago













6












6








6


1



$begingroup$


I was reading about how at how acoustic beats work.



If we combine two waves with frequencies $f_1$ and $f_2$ and unit amplitude, their combination is
$$
beginalign
A
&= cosleft(2pi f_1xright) + cosleft(2pi f_2xright) \[10px]
&= 2cosleft(2pi , fracf_1-f_22,xright)cosleft(2pi , fracf_1+f_22 , xright) ,.
endalign
$$



According to "Beat (acoustics)", Wikipedia:




Because the human ear is not sensitive to the phase of a sound, only its amplitude or intensity, only the magnitude of the envelope is heard.




So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope (since you're squaring it) and you get $$f_textaudible = f_1-f_2$$and not half that.



Now consider a regular cosine wave $A = cosleft(2pi f_Tright)$ with frequency $f_T$. Taking the magnitude (as Wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring $A$) gives you an audible frequency of $2f_T$... so do people hear frequencies as twice what they are in their amplitude wave?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



Mondo Duke is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




I was reading about how at how acoustic beats work.



If we combine two waves with frequencies $f_1$ and $f_2$ and unit amplitude, their combination is
$$
beginalign
A
&= cosleft(2pi f_1xright) + cosleft(2pi f_2xright) \[10px]
&= 2cosleft(2pi , fracf_1-f_22,xright)cosleft(2pi , fracf_1+f_22 , xright) ,.
endalign
$$



According to "Beat (acoustics)", Wikipedia:




Because the human ear is not sensitive to the phase of a sound, only its amplitude or intensity, only the magnitude of the envelope is heard.




So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope (since you're squaring it) and you get $$f_textaudible = f_1-f_2$$and not half that.



Now consider a regular cosine wave $A = cosleft(2pi f_Tright)$ with frequency $f_T$. Taking the magnitude (as Wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring $A$) gives you an audible frequency of $2f_T$... so do people hear frequencies as twice what they are in their amplitude wave?







waves acoustics frequency perception






share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



Mondo Duke is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



Mondo Duke is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 8 mins ago









Nat

3,8274 gold badges20 silver badges33 bronze badges




3,8274 gold badges20 silver badges33 bronze badges






New contributor



Mondo Duke is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








asked yesterday









Mondo DukeMondo Duke

421 silver badge4 bronze badges




421 silver badge4 bronze badges




New contributor



Mondo Duke is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




Mondo Duke is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









  • 20




    $begingroup$
    If they did, how could you measure it?
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    yesterday






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
    $endgroup$
    – Flater
    21 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
    $endgroup$
    – OrangeDog
    19 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
    $endgroup$
    – TKK
    13 hours ago












  • 20




    $begingroup$
    If they did, how could you measure it?
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    yesterday






  • 6




    $begingroup$
    If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
    $endgroup$
    – Flater
    21 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
    $endgroup$
    – OrangeDog
    19 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
    $endgroup$
    – TKK
    13 hours ago







20




20




$begingroup$
If they did, how could you measure it?
$endgroup$
– immibis
yesterday




$begingroup$
If they did, how could you measure it?
$endgroup$
– immibis
yesterday




6




6




$begingroup$
If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
$endgroup$
– Flater
21 hours ago




$begingroup$
If humans always perceived them as double; they would never figure out that they're hearing double of what they should hear. This is the same principle like how our eyees work like a camera obscura (which inherently inverts the image) but humans automatically correct their perception so the world doesn't look upside down.
$endgroup$
– Flater
21 hours ago




3




3




$begingroup$
We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
19 hours ago




$begingroup$
We don't "hear" frequencies. We perceive something close to a logarithmic fourier transform of what's moving in our ears, further processed and interpreted by our brains.
$endgroup$
– OrangeDog
19 hours ago




3




3




$begingroup$
@ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
$endgroup$
– TKK
13 hours ago




$begingroup$
@ThePhoton Probably the similarity of this question to the age old, "Is your blue the same as my blue?"
$endgroup$
– TKK
13 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















28












$begingroup$

Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.



We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.



It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
    $endgroup$
    – Pieter
    yesterday











  • $begingroup$
    Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
    $endgroup$
    – Mondo Duke
    yesterday







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
    $endgroup$
    – Pieter
    yesterday






  • 14




    $begingroup$
    We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
    $endgroup$
    – Cort Ammon
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
    $endgroup$
    – Aaron Stevens
    yesterday


















19












$begingroup$


So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope




Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.



"Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.




Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
an audible frequency of 2fT




No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
    $endgroup$
    – Vaelus
    15 hours ago


















3












$begingroup$

The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.



The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$

    The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$















      Your Answer








      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "151"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );






      Mondo Duke is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f492381%2fwhy-dont-humans-perceive-sound-waves-as-twice-the-frequency-they-are%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      28












      $begingroup$

      Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.



      We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.



      It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
        $endgroup$
        – Pieter
        yesterday











      • $begingroup$
        Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
        $endgroup$
        – Mondo Duke
        yesterday







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
        $endgroup$
        – Pieter
        yesterday






      • 14




        $begingroup$
        We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
        $endgroup$
        – Cort Ammon
        yesterday






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        yesterday















      28












      $begingroup$

      Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.



      We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.



      It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
        $endgroup$
        – Pieter
        yesterday











      • $begingroup$
        Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
        $endgroup$
        – Mondo Duke
        yesterday







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
        $endgroup$
        – Pieter
        yesterday






      • 14




        $begingroup$
        We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
        $endgroup$
        – Cort Ammon
        yesterday






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        yesterday













      28












      28








      28





      $begingroup$

      Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.



      We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.



      It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Humans hear the correct perceptive signal for a sound wave of that frequency.



      We really can't say much more than that. The psychology of acoustics are very complicated and could fill volumes.



      It's closer to say we have cells which act resonant at a specific frequency. Our brain identifies which cells are resonating at any point in time, and constructs the signal from that. Our brains receive information that cell A or cell B is signalling. The association between those neural signals and frequencies is a learned response that we pick up early on, as an infant or perhaps even in the womb.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered yesterday









      Cort AmmonCort Ammon

      26.6k4 gold badges57 silver badges90 bronze badges




      26.6k4 gold badges57 silver badges90 bronze badges











      • $begingroup$
        Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
        $endgroup$
        – Pieter
        yesterday











      • $begingroup$
        Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
        $endgroup$
        – Mondo Duke
        yesterday







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
        $endgroup$
        – Pieter
        yesterday






      • 14




        $begingroup$
        We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
        $endgroup$
        – Cort Ammon
        yesterday






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        yesterday
















      • $begingroup$
        Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
        $endgroup$
        – Pieter
        yesterday











      • $begingroup$
        Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
        $endgroup$
        – Mondo Duke
        yesterday







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
        $endgroup$
        – Pieter
        yesterday






      • 14




        $begingroup$
        We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
        $endgroup$
        – Cort Ammon
        yesterday






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        yesterday















      $begingroup$
      Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
      $endgroup$
      – Pieter
      yesterday





      $begingroup$
      Yes. The frequencies are mapped to different distances in the cochlea. Only for low frequencies is there a relation between the action potentials and the phase of the wave. This plays a role in binaural direction sensing.
      $endgroup$
      – Pieter
      yesterday













      $begingroup$
      Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
      $endgroup$
      – Mondo Duke
      yesterday





      $begingroup$
      Ok now I understand that sound is really subjective to how our cells perceive it. I'm still a bit confused -- I know humans hear sound waves when there are compressions and expansions in our ears, and we can't tell the difference between the two. A sound wave of frequency 1 wave per second is defined as looking like a peak/trough sine wave (or a compression and then an expansion in a second). But since we can't tell the difference between compression and expansion, won't our ears feel this frequency "1" wave as happening twice per second (i.e. an actual frequency of "2" signals per second)
      $endgroup$
      – Mondo Duke
      yesterday





      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
      $endgroup$
      – Pieter
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      @MondoDuke A sine wave of 100 Hz causes movements of the basilar membrane at a different position than a sine wave of 200 Hz. Different hair cells are stimulated, different "threads" in the auditory nerve start firing. (But if you want to experience something weird, listen with headphones to binaural beats.)
      $endgroup$
      – Pieter
      yesterday




      14




      14




      $begingroup$
      We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
      $endgroup$
      – Cort Ammon
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      We don't "sense" every cycle in the way you're thinking about it. A nerve fiber which is used in detecting 2kHz does not fire twice as fast as a nerve fiber which is used to detect 1kHz. Both fibers transmit something more akin to "here's how much power there is where my cells are at," and the cells are structured to do a fourier transform of sorts.
      $endgroup$
      – Cort Ammon
      yesterday




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      Aren't beats different than tones though? Isn't this what the OP is asking about?
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      yesterday













      19












      $begingroup$


      So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope




      Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.



      "Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.




      Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
      an audible frequency of 2fT




      No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
        $endgroup$
        – Vaelus
        15 hours ago















      19












      $begingroup$


      So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope




      Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.



      "Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.




      Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
      an audible frequency of 2fT




      No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
        $endgroup$
        – Vaelus
        15 hours ago













      19












      19








      19





      $begingroup$


      So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope




      Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.



      "Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.




      Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
      an audible frequency of 2fT




      No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$




      So obviously the audible frequency is twice the envelope




      Sorry, that's wrong. If you play two tones (say 440Hz and 267Hz) , you simply hear two tones at two different frequencies and you have two excitations at different spots on the basilar membrane and two different set of nerves firing. You don't hear the envelope at all, they just sound like two steady state tones.



      "Beats" only happen when you have two frequencies that are VERY close together, say 237Hz and 238 Hz. In this case your ear can't resolve the frequency difference anymore but your hear a single tone at 237.5 Hz that's amplitude modulated at 1 Hz.




      Taking the magnitude (as wikipedia says, i.e. by squaring A) gives you
      an audible frequency of 2fT




      No. You can square the amplitude to estimate power or energy but there is no mechanism that would square the actual waveform . If you play 100 Hz, you hear 100Hz, that's all there is to it.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered yesterday









      HilmarHilmar

      1,1546 silver badges8 bronze badges




      1,1546 silver badges8 bronze badges







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
        $endgroup$
        – Vaelus
        15 hours ago












      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
        $endgroup$
        – Vaelus
        15 hours ago







      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
      $endgroup$
      – Vaelus
      15 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      Although, the apparent sine waves traced by the envelope have 1/2 Hz. Example
      $endgroup$
      – Vaelus
      15 hours ago











      3












      $begingroup$

      The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.



      The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        3












        $begingroup$

        The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.



        The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.



          The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          The human perception of a wave at frequency $f$ is the human perception of a wave at frequency $f$. There is no "objective" qualia for frequency $f$ other than what people perceive, so it's nonsensical to ask whether people, when they hear $f$, perceive $2f$; there is no meaning to "perceive $2f$" other than "experience the qualia associated with $2f$", and clearly when someone hears $f$, they experience that qualia associated with $f$, not $2f$.



          The human ear basically is a device for detecting components of the Fourier transform of sound. The reason that $f_2-f_1$ dominates with beats is that if $f_2+f_1$ is high enough, then the $f_2-f_1$ component will not be significantly affected by multiplying by a $f_2+f_1$ wave.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 12 hours ago









          AcccumulationAcccumulation

          4,1317 silver badges16 bronze badges




          4,1317 silver badges16 bronze badges





















              2












              $begingroup$

              The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                2












                $begingroup$

                The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  2












                  2








                  2





                  $begingroup$

                  The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  The human ear is only sensitive to the amplitude in the sense that you can't tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin(t+phi)$. It doesn't mean you cannot tell apart $sin(t)$ and $sin^2(t)$: the latter will be heard as twice the frequency at half the volume.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 20 hours ago









                  Dmitry GrigoryevDmitry Grigoryev

                  3,0551 gold badge8 silver badges25 bronze badges




                  3,0551 gold badge8 silver badges25 bronze badges




















                      Mondo Duke is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









                      draft saved

                      draft discarded


















                      Mondo Duke is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                      Mondo Duke is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











                      Mondo Duke is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f492381%2fwhy-dont-humans-perceive-sound-waves-as-twice-the-frequency-they-are%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Invision Community Contents History See also References External links Navigation menuProprietaryinvisioncommunity.comIPS Community ForumsIPS Community Forumsthis blog entry"License Changes, IP.Board 3.4, and the Future""Interview -- Matt Mecham of Ibforums""CEO Invision Power Board, Matt Mecham Is a Liar, Thief!"IPB License Explanation 1.3, 1.3.1, 2.0, and 2.1ArchivedSecurity Fixes, Updates And Enhancements For IPB 1.3.1Archived"New Demo Accounts - Invision Power Services"the original"New Default Skin"the original"Invision Power Board 3.0.0 and Applications Released"the original"Archived copy"the original"Perpetual licenses being done away with""Release Notes - Invision Power Services""Introducing: IPS Community Suite 4!"Invision Community Release Notes

                      Canceling a color specificationRandomly assigning color to Graphics3D objects?Default color for Filling in Mathematica 9Coloring specific elements of sets with a prime modified order in an array plotHow to pick a color differing significantly from the colors already in a given color list?Detection of the text colorColor numbers based on their valueCan color schemes for use with ColorData include opacity specification?My dynamic color schemes

                      Ласкавець круглолистий Зміст Опис | Поширення | Галерея | Примітки | Посилання | Навігаційне меню58171138361-22960890446Bupleurum rotundifoliumEuro+Med PlantbasePlants of the World Online — Kew ScienceGermplasm Resources Information Network (GRIN)Ласкавецькн. VI : Літери Ком — Левиправивши або дописавши її