Mfcttrf

Monday's Blocking Donimoes Problem

Found more old paper shares from broken up companies

Why didn't NASA launch communications relay satellites for the Apollo missions?

Host telling me to cancel my booking in exchange for a discount?

is FIND WORDS in P?

How can I show that the speed of light in vacuum is the same in all reference frames?

MITM on HTTPS traffic in Kazakhstan 2019

Why is there an extra "t" in Lemmatization?

What does the following chess proverb mean: "Chess is a sea where a gnat may drink from and an elephant may bathe in."

Trivial non-dark twist in dark fantasy

Adding gears to my grandson's 12" bike

What does a black-and-white Puerto Rican flag signify?

Why do we need an estimator to be consistent?

Stellen - Putting, or putting away?

Oriented vector bundle with odd-dimensional fibers

Why is DC so, so, so Democratic?

What kind of curve (or model) should I fit to my percentage data?

Can "Taking algebraic closure" be made into a functor?

Cargo capacity of a kayak

What is the best word describing the nature of expiring in a short amount of time, connoting "losing public attention"?

Is it OK to accept a job opportunity while planning on not taking it?

Calculating Fibonacci sequence in several different ways

What are "the high ends of castles" called?

Magic is the twist

Why are the phonemes of Tutankhamun's throne name transliterated out of order?

Gender-based name endings: Are they common?Why was מֹשֶׁה‎ transliterated as [moʊzɨz]?Two questions about Sappho's nameWhy do these names from the Bible have these stress patterns?Why was the name תאומא transliterated as Θωμᾶς (Thomas) rather than Τωμᾶς (Tomas)?How did the name for st Peter become to be rendered as “Peter” in English, and why is not rendered as “stone” or “rock”Why are most given names so common?Where might the given name Xelefon originate?Why is it that Babylonian king names do not match their Akkadian equivalent?Are names of dishes more prone to name change due to power / language shift?

.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;

5

Tutankhamun's throne name in the sacred writing is as follows:

Which, from the bottom, represent ideograms conventionally pronounced as Neb-U-Kheper-Ra.

However, when the name is transliterated (for example on the Wikipedia) it is given as Nebkheperure, with the U coming between kheper and Ra/Re, instead of between neb and kheper. Why would the order be changed in the standard transliteration.

names egyptian

share|improve this question

edited 10 hours ago

Draconis

17.8k22 gold badges2727 silver badges7171 bronze badges

asked 11 hours ago

Tyler DurdenTyler Durden

33811 silver badge1212 bronze badges

add a comment | 

5

Tutankhamun's throne name in the sacred writing is as follows:

Which, from the bottom, represent ideograms conventionally pronounced as Neb-U-Kheper-Ra.

However, when the name is transliterated (for example on the Wikipedia) it is given as Nebkheperure, with the U coming between kheper and Ra/Re, instead of between neb and kheper. Why would the order be changed in the standard transliteration.

names egyptian

share|improve this question

edited 10 hours ago

Draconis

17.8k22 gold badges2727 silver badges7171 bronze badges

asked 11 hours ago

Tyler DurdenTyler Durden

33811 silver badge1212 bronze badges

add a comment | 

Tutankhamun's throne name in the sacred writing is as follows:

Which, from the bottom, represent ideograms conventionally pronounced as Neb-U-Kheper-Ra.

However, when the name is transliterated (for example on the Wikipedia) it is given as Nebkheperure, with the U coming between kheper and Ra/Re, instead of between neb and kheper. Why would the order be changed in the standard transliteration.

names egyptian

share|improve this question

edited 10 hours ago

Draconis

17.8k22 gold badges2727 silver badges7171 bronze badges

asked 11 hours ago

Tyler DurdenTyler Durden

33811 silver badge1212 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited 10 hours ago

Draconis

17.8k22 gold badges2727 silver badges7171 bronze badges

asked 11 hours ago

Tyler DurdenTyler Durden

33811 silver badge1212 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited 10 hours ago

Draconis

17.8k22 gold badges2727 silver badges7171 bronze badges

asked 11 hours ago

Tyler DurdenTyler Durden

33811 silver badge1212 bronze badges

edited 10 hours ago

Draconis

17.8k22 gold badges2727 silver badges7171 bronze badges

edited 10 hours ago

Draconis

17.8k22 gold badges2727 silver badges7171 bronze badges

asked 11 hours ago

Tyler DurdenTyler Durden

33811 silver badge1212 bronze badges

asked 11 hours ago

Tyler DurdenTyler Durden

33811 silver badge1212 bronze badges

1 Answer
1

active

oldest

votes

6

The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:

𓎟 V30 (basket)

𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)

𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)

𓇳 N5 (sun)

I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.

Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:

V30 (basket)

L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)

N5 (sun)

Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.

There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).

share|improve this answer

edited 9 hours ago

answered 9 hours ago

MichaelyusMichaelyus

2,8221111 silver badges2020 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
  
  – Tyler Durden
  8 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

Your Answer

StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "312"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);

draft saved

draft discarded

Sign up or log in

StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);

Sign up using Google

Sign up using Facebook

Sign up using Email and Password

Post as a guest

Name

Email

Required, but never shown

StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flinguistics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f31963%2fwhy-are-the-phonemes-of-tutankhamuns-throne-name-transliterated-out-of-order%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest

Name

Email

Required, but never shown

6

The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:

𓎟 V30 (basket)

𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)

𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)

𓇳 N5 (sun)

I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.

Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:

V30 (basket)

L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)

N5 (sun)

Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.

There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).

share|improve this answer

edited 9 hours ago

answered 9 hours ago

MichaelyusMichaelyus

2,8221111 silver badges2020 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
  
  – Tyler Durden
  8 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

6

The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:

𓎟 V30 (basket)

𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)

𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)

𓇳 N5 (sun)

I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.

Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:

V30 (basket)

L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)

N5 (sun)

Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.

There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).

share|improve this answer

edited 9 hours ago

answered 9 hours ago

MichaelyusMichaelyus

2,8221111 silver badges2020 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
  
  – Tyler Durden
  8 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:

𓎟 V30 (basket)

𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)

𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)

𓇳 N5 (sun)

I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.

Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:

V30 (basket)

L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)

N5 (sun)

Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.

There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).

share|improve this answer

edited 9 hours ago

answered 9 hours ago

MichaelyusMichaelyus

2,8221111 silver badges2020 bronze badges

share|improve this answer

edited 9 hours ago

answered 9 hours ago

MichaelyusMichaelyus

2,8221111 silver badges2020 bronze badges

answered 9 hours ago

MichaelyusMichaelyus

2,8221111 silver badges2020 bronze badges

answered 9 hours ago

MichaelyusMichaelyus

2,8221111 silver badges2020 bronze badges