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What was the point of separating stdout and stderr?


What was the first language with regexes?What was the first programming bookWhere did the popularity of the `i` variable come from?What was the first C compiler for the Mac?How was the first working version of Google written?What's a good way to implement this “splashing water” effect on the C64?Was there ever a home PC which ran JOVIAL?What was the DOS FAT12 720k floppy raw disk format structure?What was the first language compiler to support subtype polymorphism?What is the most rudimentary input method a platform has ever been programmed in?






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5















I occasionally need to work with console commands and 100% of the time I want to redirect my output to a file I fail to redirect stderr as well as stdout the first time. I can't think of a single reason one would want the output and the error to got to different locations, especially since in most early programs what constituted error output and standard output was left entirely up to the programmer, and it's usage was wildly inconsistent.



I realize of course, I'm ranting in 2019. We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects; so much so it's very much the exception rather than the norm. In the early days of computing there might have been a good reason to separate stdout and stderr.



What, if it existed, was it?










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  • Off topic but definitely worth your attention. Look into the history of the pseudoterminal. This is one of those ideas that keeps getting reinvented and then forgotten again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoterminal

    – Walter Mitty
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    One might trivially say, so that output and errors were not confused.

    – another-dave
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    "We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects" We have? How so? What do we do now?

    – Cody Gray
    13 mins ago


















5















I occasionally need to work with console commands and 100% of the time I want to redirect my output to a file I fail to redirect stderr as well as stdout the first time. I can't think of a single reason one would want the output and the error to got to different locations, especially since in most early programs what constituted error output and standard output was left entirely up to the programmer, and it's usage was wildly inconsistent.



I realize of course, I'm ranting in 2019. We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects; so much so it's very much the exception rather than the norm. In the early days of computing there might have been a good reason to separate stdout and stderr.



What, if it existed, was it?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Sidney is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.



















  • Off topic but definitely worth your attention. Look into the history of the pseudoterminal. This is one of those ideas that keeps getting reinvented and then forgotten again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoterminal

    – Walter Mitty
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    One might trivially say, so that output and errors were not confused.

    – another-dave
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    "We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects" We have? How so? What do we do now?

    – Cody Gray
    13 mins ago














5












5








5








I occasionally need to work with console commands and 100% of the time I want to redirect my output to a file I fail to redirect stderr as well as stdout the first time. I can't think of a single reason one would want the output and the error to got to different locations, especially since in most early programs what constituted error output and standard output was left entirely up to the programmer, and it's usage was wildly inconsistent.



I realize of course, I'm ranting in 2019. We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects; so much so it's very much the exception rather than the norm. In the early days of computing there might have been a good reason to separate stdout and stderr.



What, if it existed, was it?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Sidney is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











I occasionally need to work with console commands and 100% of the time I want to redirect my output to a file I fail to redirect stderr as well as stdout the first time. I can't think of a single reason one would want the output and the error to got to different locations, especially since in most early programs what constituted error output and standard output was left entirely up to the programmer, and it's usage was wildly inconsistent.



I realize of course, I'm ranting in 2019. We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects; so much so it's very much the exception rather than the norm. In the early days of computing there might have been a good reason to separate stdout and stderr.



What, if it existed, was it?







programming






share|improve this question









New contributor



Sidney is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question









New contributor



Sidney is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 8 hours ago









Brian Tompsett - 汤莱恩

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SidneySidney

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Check out our Code of Conduct.














  • Off topic but definitely worth your attention. Look into the history of the pseudoterminal. This is one of those ideas that keeps getting reinvented and then forgotten again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoterminal

    – Walter Mitty
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    One might trivially say, so that output and errors were not confused.

    – another-dave
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    "We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects" We have? How so? What do we do now?

    – Cody Gray
    13 mins ago


















  • Off topic but definitely worth your attention. Look into the history of the pseudoterminal. This is one of those ideas that keeps getting reinvented and then forgotten again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoterminal

    – Walter Mitty
    8 hours ago






  • 2





    One might trivially say, so that output and errors were not confused.

    – another-dave
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    "We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects" We have? How so? What do we do now?

    – Cody Gray
    13 mins ago

















Off topic but definitely worth your attention. Look into the history of the pseudoterminal. This is one of those ideas that keeps getting reinvented and then forgotten again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoterminal

– Walter Mitty
8 hours ago





Off topic but definitely worth your attention. Look into the history of the pseudoterminal. This is one of those ideas that keeps getting reinvented and then forgotten again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoterminal

– Walter Mitty
8 hours ago




2




2





One might trivially say, so that output and errors were not confused.

– another-dave
2 hours ago





One might trivially say, so that output and errors were not confused.

– another-dave
2 hours ago




2




2





"We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects" We have? How so? What do we do now?

– Cody Gray
13 mins ago






"We've moved well past simply outputting to the console in most all respects" We have? How so? What do we do now?

– Cody Gray
13 mins ago











2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















13














Because you might not want error messages in your output. According to computer scientist Stephen C. Johnson:




One of the most amusing and unexpected consequences of
phototypesetting was the Unix standard error file (!). After
phototypesetting, you had to take a long wide strip of paper and feed
it carefully into a smelly, icky machine which eventually (several
minutes later) spat out the paper with the printing visible.



One afternoon several of us had the same experience -- typesetting
something, feeding the paper through the developer, only to find a
single, beautifully typeset line: "cannot open file foobar" The
grumbles were loud enough and in the presence of the right people, and
a couple of days later the standard error file was born...







share|improve this answer




















  • 2





    Diomidis Spinellis provides more context in his blog post on the topic, based on Stephen C. Johnson’s email.

    – Stephen Kitt
    8 hours ago


















7














You are thinking that all output is for human reading.



For instance, take the Unix cpio command. It writes the archive to stdout, which is always redirected to a device or file. It writes the archive with a header before each file that contains the size of the file, which lets it calculate the offset to the next file when reading it back.



If there was an error or warning thrown in there, it would basically make it unusable after that point due to the extra data thrown in the output. Plus you would want that warning to go to your screen or error log separately from the archive, otherwise you would never see it.






share|improve this answer

























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    2 Answers
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    active

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    13














    Because you might not want error messages in your output. According to computer scientist Stephen C. Johnson:




    One of the most amusing and unexpected consequences of
    phototypesetting was the Unix standard error file (!). After
    phototypesetting, you had to take a long wide strip of paper and feed
    it carefully into a smelly, icky machine which eventually (several
    minutes later) spat out the paper with the printing visible.



    One afternoon several of us had the same experience -- typesetting
    something, feeding the paper through the developer, only to find a
    single, beautifully typeset line: "cannot open file foobar" The
    grumbles were loud enough and in the presence of the right people, and
    a couple of days later the standard error file was born...







    share|improve this answer




















    • 2





      Diomidis Spinellis provides more context in his blog post on the topic, based on Stephen C. Johnson’s email.

      – Stephen Kitt
      8 hours ago















    13














    Because you might not want error messages in your output. According to computer scientist Stephen C. Johnson:




    One of the most amusing and unexpected consequences of
    phototypesetting was the Unix standard error file (!). After
    phototypesetting, you had to take a long wide strip of paper and feed
    it carefully into a smelly, icky machine which eventually (several
    minutes later) spat out the paper with the printing visible.



    One afternoon several of us had the same experience -- typesetting
    something, feeding the paper through the developer, only to find a
    single, beautifully typeset line: "cannot open file foobar" The
    grumbles were loud enough and in the presence of the right people, and
    a couple of days later the standard error file was born...







    share|improve this answer




















    • 2





      Diomidis Spinellis provides more context in his blog post on the topic, based on Stephen C. Johnson’s email.

      – Stephen Kitt
      8 hours ago













    13












    13








    13







    Because you might not want error messages in your output. According to computer scientist Stephen C. Johnson:




    One of the most amusing and unexpected consequences of
    phototypesetting was the Unix standard error file (!). After
    phototypesetting, you had to take a long wide strip of paper and feed
    it carefully into a smelly, icky machine which eventually (several
    minutes later) spat out the paper with the printing visible.



    One afternoon several of us had the same experience -- typesetting
    something, feeding the paper through the developer, only to find a
    single, beautifully typeset line: "cannot open file foobar" The
    grumbles were loud enough and in the presence of the right people, and
    a couple of days later the standard error file was born...







    share|improve this answer















    Because you might not want error messages in your output. According to computer scientist Stephen C. Johnson:




    One of the most amusing and unexpected consequences of
    phototypesetting was the Unix standard error file (!). After
    phototypesetting, you had to take a long wide strip of paper and feed
    it carefully into a smelly, icky machine which eventually (several
    minutes later) spat out the paper with the printing visible.



    One afternoon several of us had the same experience -- typesetting
    something, feeding the paper through the developer, only to find a
    single, beautifully typeset line: "cannot open file foobar" The
    grumbles were loud enough and in the presence of the right people, and
    a couple of days later the standard error file was born...








    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 8 hours ago









    Stephen Kitt

    46k8 gold badges193 silver badges195 bronze badges




    46k8 gold badges193 silver badges195 bronze badges










    answered 8 hours ago









    snips-n-snailssnips-n-snails

    9,9762 gold badges34 silver badges79 bronze badges




    9,9762 gold badges34 silver badges79 bronze badges







    • 2





      Diomidis Spinellis provides more context in his blog post on the topic, based on Stephen C. Johnson’s email.

      – Stephen Kitt
      8 hours ago












    • 2





      Diomidis Spinellis provides more context in his blog post on the topic, based on Stephen C. Johnson’s email.

      – Stephen Kitt
      8 hours ago







    2




    2





    Diomidis Spinellis provides more context in his blog post on the topic, based on Stephen C. Johnson’s email.

    – Stephen Kitt
    8 hours ago





    Diomidis Spinellis provides more context in his blog post on the topic, based on Stephen C. Johnson’s email.

    – Stephen Kitt
    8 hours ago













    7














    You are thinking that all output is for human reading.



    For instance, take the Unix cpio command. It writes the archive to stdout, which is always redirected to a device or file. It writes the archive with a header before each file that contains the size of the file, which lets it calculate the offset to the next file when reading it back.



    If there was an error or warning thrown in there, it would basically make it unusable after that point due to the extra data thrown in the output. Plus you would want that warning to go to your screen or error log separately from the archive, otherwise you would never see it.






    share|improve this answer



























      7














      You are thinking that all output is for human reading.



      For instance, take the Unix cpio command. It writes the archive to stdout, which is always redirected to a device or file. It writes the archive with a header before each file that contains the size of the file, which lets it calculate the offset to the next file when reading it back.



      If there was an error or warning thrown in there, it would basically make it unusable after that point due to the extra data thrown in the output. Plus you would want that warning to go to your screen or error log separately from the archive, otherwise you would never see it.






      share|improve this answer

























        7












        7








        7







        You are thinking that all output is for human reading.



        For instance, take the Unix cpio command. It writes the archive to stdout, which is always redirected to a device or file. It writes the archive with a header before each file that contains the size of the file, which lets it calculate the offset to the next file when reading it back.



        If there was an error or warning thrown in there, it would basically make it unusable after that point due to the extra data thrown in the output. Plus you would want that warning to go to your screen or error log separately from the archive, otherwise you would never see it.






        share|improve this answer













        You are thinking that all output is for human reading.



        For instance, take the Unix cpio command. It writes the archive to stdout, which is always redirected to a device or file. It writes the archive with a header before each file that contains the size of the file, which lets it calculate the offset to the next file when reading it back.



        If there was an error or warning thrown in there, it would basically make it unusable after that point due to the extra data thrown in the output. Plus you would want that warning to go to your screen or error log separately from the archive, otherwise you would never see it.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 7 hours ago









        mannaggiamannaggia

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