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A finite 2 group containing the dihedral group of order 16?
A finite p-group question: can this happen?Which finite groups are generated by n involutions?Nilpotency class of a certain finite 2-groupDoes the quaternion group Q_8 have a presentation of this form?Bound on the order of a finite group generated by elements $a$ and $b$ of order 2 and $n geq 3$ such that the sum of the images of $a$, $b$ and $b^-1$ under any ordinary representation has only rational eigenvaluesA Magnus theorem in the category of residually finite groupsFinite groups $G$ so that $G$ has exactly two subgroups of a given orderGeneralization of a theorem of Øystein Ore in group theoryAre all sneaky groups products of Frobenius and 2-Frobenius groups?A balanced tree-like presentation of $S_3$Enlarging a subdegree-finite “almost transitive” permutation group to a transitive one? (follow-up)
$begingroup$
A question for finite 2-group junkies ...
The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.
Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.
An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.
An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).
[This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]
at.algebraic-topology gr.group-theory finite-groups
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A question for finite 2-group junkies ...
The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.
Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.
An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.
An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).
[This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]
at.algebraic-topology gr.group-theory finite-groups
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A question for finite 2-group junkies ...
The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.
Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.
An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.
An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).
[This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]
at.algebraic-topology gr.group-theory finite-groups
$endgroup$
A question for finite 2-group junkies ...
The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.
Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.
An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.
An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).
[This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]
at.algebraic-topology gr.group-theory finite-groups
at.algebraic-topology gr.group-theory finite-groups
edited 7 hours ago
Ali Taghavi
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1046 gold badges20 silver badges90 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Nicholas KuhnNicholas Kuhn
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4,29113 silver badges25 bronze badges
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1 Answer
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$begingroup$
No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.
If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.
So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.
But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.
The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Also thanks for the composite order group example!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.
If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.
So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.
But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.
The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Also thanks for the composite order group example!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.
If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.
So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.
But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.
The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Also thanks for the composite order group example!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.
If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.
So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.
But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.
The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.
$endgroup$
No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.
If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.
So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.
But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.
The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.
edited 6 hours ago
verret
2,0321 gold badge13 silver badges23 bronze badges
2,0321 gold badge13 silver badges23 bronze badges
answered 6 hours ago
Derek HoltDerek Holt
27.9k4 gold badges64 silver badges113 bronze badges
27.9k4 gold badges64 silver badges113 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Also thanks for the composite order group example!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Also thanks for the composite order group example!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
4 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Also thanks for the composite order group example!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also thanks for the composite order group example!
$endgroup$
– Nicholas Kuhn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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