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A finite 2 group containing the dihedral group of order 16?


A finite p-group question: can this happen?Which finite groups are generated by n involutions?Nilpotency class of a certain finite 2-groupDoes the quaternion group Q_8 have a presentation of this form?Bound on the order of a finite group generated by elements $a$ and $b$ of order 2 and $n geq 3$ such that the sum of the images of $a$, $b$ and $b^-1$ under any ordinary representation has only rational eigenvaluesA Magnus theorem in the category of residually finite groupsFinite groups $G$ so that $G$ has exactly two subgroups of a given orderGeneralization of a theorem of Øystein Ore in group theoryAre all sneaky groups products of Frobenius and 2-Frobenius groups?A balanced tree-like presentation of $S_3$Enlarging a subdegree-finite “almost transitive” permutation group to a transitive one? (follow-up)













9












$begingroup$


A question for finite 2-group junkies ...



The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.



Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.



An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.



An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).



[This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    9












    $begingroup$


    A question for finite 2-group junkies ...



    The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.



    Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.



    An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.



    An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).



    [This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      9












      9








      9


      1



      $begingroup$


      A question for finite 2-group junkies ...



      The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.



      Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.



      An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.



      An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).



      [This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      A question for finite 2-group junkies ...



      The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.



      Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.



      An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.



      An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).



      [This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]







      at.algebraic-topology gr.group-theory finite-groups






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      share|cite|improve this question













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      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 7 hours ago









      Ali Taghavi

      1046 gold badges20 silver badges90 bronze badges




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      asked 8 hours ago









      Nicholas KuhnNicholas Kuhn

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          1 Answer
          1






          active

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          7












          $begingroup$

          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago













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          $begingroup$

          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago















          7












          $begingroup$

          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago













          7












          7








          7





          $begingroup$

          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 6 hours ago









          verret

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          2,0321 gold badge13 silver badges23 bronze badges










          answered 6 hours ago









          Derek HoltDerek Holt

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          27.9k4 gold badges64 silver badges113 bronze badges







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago












          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago







          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
          $endgroup$
          – Nicholas Kuhn
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
          $endgroup$
          – Nicholas Kuhn
          5 hours ago




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          Also thanks for the composite order group example!
          $endgroup$
          – Nicholas Kuhn
          4 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Also thanks for the composite order group example!
          $endgroup$
          – Nicholas Kuhn
          4 hours ago

















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