A finite 2 group containing the dihedral group of order 16?A finite p-group question: can this happen?Which finite groups are generated by n involutions?Nilpotency class of a certain finite 2-groupDoes the quaternion group Q_8 have a presentation of this form?Bound on the order of a finite group generated by elements $a$ and $b$ of order 2 and $n geq 3$ such that the sum of the images of $a$, $b$ and $b^-1$ under any ordinary representation has only rational eigenvaluesA Magnus theorem in the category of residually finite groupsFinite groups $G$ so that $G$ has exactly two subgroups of a given orderGeneralization of a theorem of Øystein Ore in group theoryAre all sneaky groups products of Frobenius and 2-Frobenius groups?A balanced tree-like presentation of $S_3$Enlarging a subdegree-finite “almost transitive” permutation group to a transitive one? (follow-up)

A finite 2 group containing the dihedral group of order 16?


A finite p-group question: can this happen?Which finite groups are generated by n involutions?Nilpotency class of a certain finite 2-groupDoes the quaternion group Q_8 have a presentation of this form?Bound on the order of a finite group generated by elements $a$ and $b$ of order 2 and $n geq 3$ such that the sum of the images of $a$, $b$ and $b^-1$ under any ordinary representation has only rational eigenvaluesA Magnus theorem in the category of residually finite groupsFinite groups $G$ so that $G$ has exactly two subgroups of a given orderGeneralization of a theorem of Øystein Ore in group theoryAre all sneaky groups products of Frobenius and 2-Frobenius groups?A balanced tree-like presentation of $S_3$Enlarging a subdegree-finite “almost transitive” permutation group to a transitive one? (follow-up)













9












$begingroup$


A question for finite 2-group junkies ...



The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.



Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.



An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.



An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).



[This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    9












    $begingroup$


    A question for finite 2-group junkies ...



    The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.



    Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.



    An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.



    An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).



    [This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      9












      9








      9


      1



      $begingroup$


      A question for finite 2-group junkies ...



      The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.



      Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.



      An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.



      An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).



      [This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      A question for finite 2-group junkies ...



      The dihedral group $D_16$ of order 16 has a presentation $D_16= langle a,t | a^2=t^8=atat=erangle$.



      Question: Does there exist a finite 2-group $G$ containing $D_16$ as a subgroup, and an element $g in G$ such that $gag^-1=t^4$? Bonus pats-on-the-back if $G$ has order 64.



      An obvious reduction: one can assume that $G =langle D_16,grangle$.



      An obvious constraint: $D_16$ cannot be normal in $G$ (so $G$ can't have order 32).



      [This question has come up in investigations of the Balmer spectrum of $G$--equivariant stable homotopy for finite $p$--groups $G$. Like Dr. Frankenstein, I am looking for interesting subjects to experiment on, and my student Chris Lloyd is serving as the able assistant to the mad scientist.]







      at.algebraic-topology gr.group-theory finite-groups






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 7 hours ago









      Ali Taghavi

      1046 gold badges20 silver badges90 bronze badges




      1046 gold badges20 silver badges90 bronze badges










      asked 8 hours ago









      Nicholas KuhnNicholas Kuhn

      4,29113 silver badges25 bronze badges




      4,29113 silver badges25 bronze badges




















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          7












          $begingroup$

          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago













          Your Answer








          StackExchange.ready(function()
          var channelOptions =
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "504"
          ;
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
          createEditor();
          );

          else
          createEditor();

          );

          function createEditor()
          StackExchange.prepareEditor(
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: true,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: 10,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader:
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          ,
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          );



          );













          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f334948%2fa-finite-2-group-containing-the-dihedral-group-of-order-16%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          7












          $begingroup$

          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago















          7












          $begingroup$

          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago













          7












          7








          7





          $begingroup$

          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          No. We can prove this by induction. Let $G$ be the smallest $2$-group in which this situation occurs. Then $G$ has a normal central subgroup $N$ of order $2$.



          If $N$ has trivial intersection with the subgroup $langle a,t rangle = D_16$, then the same situation occurs in $G/N$, contradicting the minimality of $G$.



          So that intersection must be nontrivial, and hence $N le langle a,t rangle$, and then we must have $N = Z(langle a,t rangle) = langle t^4 rangle$.



          But then $t^4 in Z(G)$, contradicting the assumption that it is conjugate in $G$ to $a$.



          The situation you describe can occur in finite groups, such as in simple groups $rm PSL(2,q)$ for some prime powers $q$, such as $q=17$, but not in finite $2$-groups.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 6 hours ago









          verret

          2,0321 gold badge13 silver badges23 bronze badges




          2,0321 gold badge13 silver badges23 bronze badges










          answered 6 hours ago









          Derek HoltDerek Holt

          27.9k4 gold badges64 silver badges113 bronze badges




          27.9k4 gold badges64 silver badges113 bronze badges







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago












          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also thanks for the composite order group example!
            $endgroup$
            – Nicholas Kuhn
            4 hours ago







          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
          $endgroup$
          – Nicholas Kuhn
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Thanks for the friendly proof! I really have a more general question of the form "Can this happen?" and this question here was my attempt to find an example. If I can't easily resolve my general question with arguments in the style of what you did, I'll be back with more!
          $endgroup$
          – Nicholas Kuhn
          5 hours ago




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          Also thanks for the composite order group example!
          $endgroup$
          – Nicholas Kuhn
          4 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Also thanks for the composite order group example!
          $endgroup$
          – Nicholas Kuhn
          4 hours ago

















          draft saved

          draft discarded
















































          Thanks for contributing an answer to MathOverflow!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid


          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

          Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f334948%2fa-finite-2-group-containing-the-dihedral-group-of-order-16%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          Canceling a color specificationRandomly assigning color to Graphics3D objects?Default color for Filling in Mathematica 9Coloring specific elements of sets with a prime modified order in an array plotHow to pick a color differing significantly from the colors already in a given color list?Detection of the text colorColor numbers based on their valueCan color schemes for use with ColorData include opacity specification?My dynamic color schemes

          Invision Community Contents History See also References External links Navigation menuProprietaryinvisioncommunity.comIPS Community ForumsIPS Community Forumsthis blog entry"License Changes, IP.Board 3.4, and the Future""Interview -- Matt Mecham of Ibforums""CEO Invision Power Board, Matt Mecham Is a Liar, Thief!"IPB License Explanation 1.3, 1.3.1, 2.0, and 2.1ArchivedSecurity Fixes, Updates And Enhancements For IPB 1.3.1Archived"New Demo Accounts - Invision Power Services"the original"New Default Skin"the original"Invision Power Board 3.0.0 and Applications Released"the original"Archived copy"the original"Perpetual licenses being done away with""Release Notes - Invision Power Services""Introducing: IPS Community Suite 4!"Invision Community Release Notes

          199年 目錄 大件事 到箇年出世嗰人 到箇年死嗰人 節慶、風俗習慣 導覽選單