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How useful would a hydroelectric plant be in the post-apocalypse world?


How does the Ash Manor get electricity?How useful would a electricity-over-water gun be?How long can a power plant continue to generate electricity without maintenance by people?What power plant is the easiest to reboot and run by Average Joe?Post apocalypse, can explosives be methodically removed?How would English language develop in an apocalypse?Scavenging metal resources in post-apocalypse after 100 yearsHow to Keep a Local Radio Station Broadcasting in an ApocalypseHow might a group (with an electrical engineer) restore downed power lines post-apocalypse?How damaging would a major solar flare induced EMP event really be?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








12












$begingroup$


The details don't matter, just that a large fraction of people have died (let's say 90%) and society has completely collapsed. It's only a year or two later, and people have started to gather together again and attempt to build communities. The leader of a large-ish (~200) band of people has a plan to rebuild as best as possible, and so plans to have everyone take up residence in a nearby city that is built near one of the US' hydroelectric power plants. This city has specifically been chosen so that the nearby hydroelectric plant can be restored and power can be available to the city.



Obviously there is a lot that can go wrong with this plan, but I'm only interested in one aspect of it. I'm handwaving away some details:



  1. Assume that the survivors manage to restore the plant

  2. Assume that the survivors are able to keep it functional for some extended period of time

Given those things, my question is:



Can a standalone hydroelectric plant actually be useful and provide power to a nearby city in otherwise modern USA? If not, are there any steps that could be taken to make it work?



The reason I'm uncertain is things like:



  1. Our power grid is quite complicated, and it isn't obvious to me if modern day power plants can even really operate on their own

  2. I'm not quite sure if power plants are actually designed in such a way that they provide their own power - I wouldn't be surprised if an external power source (even if just generators) is required at various parts

  3. Presuming that the plant can operate on its own, I'm not sure if that means it can power a city that is likely connected to many other places in the grid. You might end up effectively attempting to power half the nation, which obviously isn't possible.

  4. It also seems likely that the plant wouldn't be tied directly or even closely into a city anyway, and so getting power to the city would require a major overhaul of infrastructure.

In terms of power usage, the plant itself should be more than sufficient. Looking at the list of US hydroelectric plants, even the smallest generates roughly 1.3TW of electricity. We're talking roughly a couple hundred survivors, and even if they each have their own house and use electricity at standard US rates (peaking at 2kW) that still leaves room for hundreds of thousands of houses. Presumably only logistics will be an issue for our survivors for quite a while.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$


This question asks for hard science. All answers to this question should be backed up by equations, empirical evidence, scientific papers, other citations, etc. Answers that do not satisfy this requirement might be removed. See the tag description for more information.













  • $begingroup$
    Can you throw in some numbers? What is the power plant potential? How big is the energy demand?
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems entirely plausible, with little or no hand waving. It's even part of the plot of Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (2014). You may want a "hard science" tag to accentuate that you want hard science answers. Have you already researched hydroelectric dams? Seems like some of your questions would be on the surface of technical documentation.
    $endgroup$
    – kleer001
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @L.Dutch throwing in some numbers, power plant production shouldn't be an issue, as any single hydroelectric plant seems to easily have enough potential to power even a medium sized city. The band of survivors is comparatively tiny. It should mainly be a question of logistics and getting the city "plugged in" to the plant.
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @conman research is a discipline that people base their careers on, it's an industry, so it's not trivial. I always start with Wikipedia then go to specific exemplars in that particular industry/field followed closely by industry forums for particular problems and rabbit holes.
    $endgroup$
    – kleer001
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Hardware's not a problem. The problem is finding enough wetware with the knowledge -- or finding enough smart wetware plus a full seat of comprehendable user manuals.
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    7 hours ago

















12












$begingroup$


The details don't matter, just that a large fraction of people have died (let's say 90%) and society has completely collapsed. It's only a year or two later, and people have started to gather together again and attempt to build communities. The leader of a large-ish (~200) band of people has a plan to rebuild as best as possible, and so plans to have everyone take up residence in a nearby city that is built near one of the US' hydroelectric power plants. This city has specifically been chosen so that the nearby hydroelectric plant can be restored and power can be available to the city.



Obviously there is a lot that can go wrong with this plan, but I'm only interested in one aspect of it. I'm handwaving away some details:



  1. Assume that the survivors manage to restore the plant

  2. Assume that the survivors are able to keep it functional for some extended period of time

Given those things, my question is:



Can a standalone hydroelectric plant actually be useful and provide power to a nearby city in otherwise modern USA? If not, are there any steps that could be taken to make it work?



The reason I'm uncertain is things like:



  1. Our power grid is quite complicated, and it isn't obvious to me if modern day power plants can even really operate on their own

  2. I'm not quite sure if power plants are actually designed in such a way that they provide their own power - I wouldn't be surprised if an external power source (even if just generators) is required at various parts

  3. Presuming that the plant can operate on its own, I'm not sure if that means it can power a city that is likely connected to many other places in the grid. You might end up effectively attempting to power half the nation, which obviously isn't possible.

  4. It also seems likely that the plant wouldn't be tied directly or even closely into a city anyway, and so getting power to the city would require a major overhaul of infrastructure.

In terms of power usage, the plant itself should be more than sufficient. Looking at the list of US hydroelectric plants, even the smallest generates roughly 1.3TW of electricity. We're talking roughly a couple hundred survivors, and even if they each have their own house and use electricity at standard US rates (peaking at 2kW) that still leaves room for hundreds of thousands of houses. Presumably only logistics will be an issue for our survivors for quite a while.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$


This question asks for hard science. All answers to this question should be backed up by equations, empirical evidence, scientific papers, other citations, etc. Answers that do not satisfy this requirement might be removed. See the tag description for more information.













  • $begingroup$
    Can you throw in some numbers? What is the power plant potential? How big is the energy demand?
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems entirely plausible, with little or no hand waving. It's even part of the plot of Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (2014). You may want a "hard science" tag to accentuate that you want hard science answers. Have you already researched hydroelectric dams? Seems like some of your questions would be on the surface of technical documentation.
    $endgroup$
    – kleer001
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @L.Dutch throwing in some numbers, power plant production shouldn't be an issue, as any single hydroelectric plant seems to easily have enough potential to power even a medium sized city. The band of survivors is comparatively tiny. It should mainly be a question of logistics and getting the city "plugged in" to the plant.
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @conman research is a discipline that people base their careers on, it's an industry, so it's not trivial. I always start with Wikipedia then go to specific exemplars in that particular industry/field followed closely by industry forums for particular problems and rabbit holes.
    $endgroup$
    – kleer001
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Hardware's not a problem. The problem is finding enough wetware with the knowledge -- or finding enough smart wetware plus a full seat of comprehendable user manuals.
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    7 hours ago













12












12








12





$begingroup$


The details don't matter, just that a large fraction of people have died (let's say 90%) and society has completely collapsed. It's only a year or two later, and people have started to gather together again and attempt to build communities. The leader of a large-ish (~200) band of people has a plan to rebuild as best as possible, and so plans to have everyone take up residence in a nearby city that is built near one of the US' hydroelectric power plants. This city has specifically been chosen so that the nearby hydroelectric plant can be restored and power can be available to the city.



Obviously there is a lot that can go wrong with this plan, but I'm only interested in one aspect of it. I'm handwaving away some details:



  1. Assume that the survivors manage to restore the plant

  2. Assume that the survivors are able to keep it functional for some extended period of time

Given those things, my question is:



Can a standalone hydroelectric plant actually be useful and provide power to a nearby city in otherwise modern USA? If not, are there any steps that could be taken to make it work?



The reason I'm uncertain is things like:



  1. Our power grid is quite complicated, and it isn't obvious to me if modern day power plants can even really operate on their own

  2. I'm not quite sure if power plants are actually designed in such a way that they provide their own power - I wouldn't be surprised if an external power source (even if just generators) is required at various parts

  3. Presuming that the plant can operate on its own, I'm not sure if that means it can power a city that is likely connected to many other places in the grid. You might end up effectively attempting to power half the nation, which obviously isn't possible.

  4. It also seems likely that the plant wouldn't be tied directly or even closely into a city anyway, and so getting power to the city would require a major overhaul of infrastructure.

In terms of power usage, the plant itself should be more than sufficient. Looking at the list of US hydroelectric plants, even the smallest generates roughly 1.3TW of electricity. We're talking roughly a couple hundred survivors, and even if they each have their own house and use electricity at standard US rates (peaking at 2kW) that still leaves room for hundreds of thousands of houses. Presumably only logistics will be an issue for our survivors for quite a while.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




The details don't matter, just that a large fraction of people have died (let's say 90%) and society has completely collapsed. It's only a year or two later, and people have started to gather together again and attempt to build communities. The leader of a large-ish (~200) band of people has a plan to rebuild as best as possible, and so plans to have everyone take up residence in a nearby city that is built near one of the US' hydroelectric power plants. This city has specifically been chosen so that the nearby hydroelectric plant can be restored and power can be available to the city.



Obviously there is a lot that can go wrong with this plan, but I'm only interested in one aspect of it. I'm handwaving away some details:



  1. Assume that the survivors manage to restore the plant

  2. Assume that the survivors are able to keep it functional for some extended period of time

Given those things, my question is:



Can a standalone hydroelectric plant actually be useful and provide power to a nearby city in otherwise modern USA? If not, are there any steps that could be taken to make it work?



The reason I'm uncertain is things like:



  1. Our power grid is quite complicated, and it isn't obvious to me if modern day power plants can even really operate on their own

  2. I'm not quite sure if power plants are actually designed in such a way that they provide their own power - I wouldn't be surprised if an external power source (even if just generators) is required at various parts

  3. Presuming that the plant can operate on its own, I'm not sure if that means it can power a city that is likely connected to many other places in the grid. You might end up effectively attempting to power half the nation, which obviously isn't possible.

  4. It also seems likely that the plant wouldn't be tied directly or even closely into a city anyway, and so getting power to the city would require a major overhaul of infrastructure.

In terms of power usage, the plant itself should be more than sufficient. Looking at the list of US hydroelectric plants, even the smallest generates roughly 1.3TW of electricity. We're talking roughly a couple hundred survivors, and even if they each have their own house and use electricity at standard US rates (peaking at 2kW) that still leaves room for hundreds of thousands of houses. Presumably only logistics will be an issue for our survivors for quite a while.







hard-science post-apocalypse electricity






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 8 hours ago







conman

















asked 8 hours ago









conmanconman

1,7811 gold badge9 silver badges27 bronze badges




1,7811 gold badge9 silver badges27 bronze badges



This question asks for hard science. All answers to this question should be backed up by equations, empirical evidence, scientific papers, other citations, etc. Answers that do not satisfy this requirement might be removed. See the tag description for more information.




This question asks for hard science. All answers to this question should be backed up by equations, empirical evidence, scientific papers, other citations, etc. Answers that do not satisfy this requirement might be removed. See the tag description for more information.












  • $begingroup$
    Can you throw in some numbers? What is the power plant potential? How big is the energy demand?
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems entirely plausible, with little or no hand waving. It's even part of the plot of Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (2014). You may want a "hard science" tag to accentuate that you want hard science answers. Have you already researched hydroelectric dams? Seems like some of your questions would be on the surface of technical documentation.
    $endgroup$
    – kleer001
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @L.Dutch throwing in some numbers, power plant production shouldn't be an issue, as any single hydroelectric plant seems to easily have enough potential to power even a medium sized city. The band of survivors is comparatively tiny. It should mainly be a question of logistics and getting the city "plugged in" to the plant.
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @conman research is a discipline that people base their careers on, it's an industry, so it's not trivial. I always start with Wikipedia then go to specific exemplars in that particular industry/field followed closely by industry forums for particular problems and rabbit holes.
    $endgroup$
    – kleer001
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Hardware's not a problem. The problem is finding enough wetware with the knowledge -- or finding enough smart wetware plus a full seat of comprehendable user manuals.
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    7 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Can you throw in some numbers? What is the power plant potential? How big is the energy demand?
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems entirely plausible, with little or no hand waving. It's even part of the plot of Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (2014). You may want a "hard science" tag to accentuate that you want hard science answers. Have you already researched hydroelectric dams? Seems like some of your questions would be on the surface of technical documentation.
    $endgroup$
    – kleer001
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @L.Dutch throwing in some numbers, power plant production shouldn't be an issue, as any single hydroelectric plant seems to easily have enough potential to power even a medium sized city. The band of survivors is comparatively tiny. It should mainly be a question of logistics and getting the city "plugged in" to the plant.
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @conman research is a discipline that people base their careers on, it's an industry, so it's not trivial. I always start with Wikipedia then go to specific exemplars in that particular industry/field followed closely by industry forums for particular problems and rabbit holes.
    $endgroup$
    – kleer001
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Hardware's not a problem. The problem is finding enough wetware with the knowledge -- or finding enough smart wetware plus a full seat of comprehendable user manuals.
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    7 hours ago















$begingroup$
Can you throw in some numbers? What is the power plant potential? How big is the energy demand?
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Can you throw in some numbers? What is the power plant potential? How big is the energy demand?
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
This seems entirely plausible, with little or no hand waving. It's even part of the plot of Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (2014). You may want a "hard science" tag to accentuate that you want hard science answers. Have you already researched hydroelectric dams? Seems like some of your questions would be on the surface of technical documentation.
$endgroup$
– kleer001
8 hours ago





$begingroup$
This seems entirely plausible, with little or no hand waving. It's even part of the plot of Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (2014). You may want a "hard science" tag to accentuate that you want hard science answers. Have you already researched hydroelectric dams? Seems like some of your questions would be on the surface of technical documentation.
$endgroup$
– kleer001
8 hours ago













$begingroup$
@L.Dutch throwing in some numbers, power plant production shouldn't be an issue, as any single hydroelectric plant seems to easily have enough potential to power even a medium sized city. The band of survivors is comparatively tiny. It should mainly be a question of logistics and getting the city "plugged in" to the plant.
$endgroup$
– conman
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
@L.Dutch throwing in some numbers, power plant production shouldn't be an issue, as any single hydroelectric plant seems to easily have enough potential to power even a medium sized city. The band of survivors is comparatively tiny. It should mainly be a question of logistics and getting the city "plugged in" to the plant.
$endgroup$
– conman
8 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@conman research is a discipline that people base their careers on, it's an industry, so it's not trivial. I always start with Wikipedia then go to specific exemplars in that particular industry/field followed closely by industry forums for particular problems and rabbit holes.
$endgroup$
– kleer001
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
@conman research is a discipline that people base their careers on, it's an industry, so it's not trivial. I always start with Wikipedia then go to specific exemplars in that particular industry/field followed closely by industry forums for particular problems and rabbit holes.
$endgroup$
– kleer001
7 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Hardware's not a problem. The problem is finding enough wetware with the knowledge -- or finding enough smart wetware plus a full seat of comprehendable user manuals.
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Hardware's not a problem. The problem is finding enough wetware with the knowledge -- or finding enough smart wetware plus a full seat of comprehendable user manuals.
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

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14












$begingroup$

On September 28 2003, Italy experienced a nation wide black out.




After three hours, energy was restored in northern regions. Electricity was restored gradually in most places, and in most cities electricity was powered on again during the morning.




Energy was restored first in the northern region because there is where hydroelectric plants are located, and they could be used to power back the other plants, needing electricity to start up and operate. Ref.1 Ref.2



As long as you isolate the network that you want to supply from the network that you don't want to supply, you can use the hydroelectric plant as standalone for quite some time. (this addresses your points 2, 3 and 4). You "just" need to know the schematics of the network.



Moreover, one of the advantages of hydroelectric plants it their flexibility




Hydropower is a flexible source of electricity since stations can be ramped up and down very quickly to adapt to changing energy demands. Hydro turbines have a start-up time of the order of a few minutes. It takes around 60 to 90 seconds to bring a unit from cold start-up to full load; this is much shorter than for gas turbines or steam plants. Power generation can also be decreased quickly when there is a surplus power generation.




This is particularly important if you are supplying a relatively small city with not too much load, where load fluctuations might be relatively large.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    I've already given you thumbs up. I was going to say the same thing. Other events show the same general thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The generating station on Niagara Falls never went off line, and the city of Niagara Falls never went dark. The station was one of the "anchors" when the grid was being restored, and allowed the communication grid to be powered to help stations coordinate as they came back on line.
    $endgroup$
    – puppetsock
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Gnitpique: simply because the OP placed a "hard science" tag on their query, you might consider placing links to newpaper or journal articles for the event & history in question -- a source other than Wikipedia -- in order to satisfy the "other citations" and "empirical evidence" requirements. WP itself claims that it is is not a reliable source for academic writing or research which means it really can't be used to defend a hard science response.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @elemtilas, added reference to italian newspaper of the period
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Awesome! -- Thanks for doing that! Deffo +1 now!
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago


















3












$begingroup$

Hydroelectric dams are definitely not maintenance-free, nor are power grids. You have three life-threatening problems for your small band of experimenters.



1) Grid power is really dangerous and complex for the inexperienced. It's quite possibly fatal for the new, inadequately equipped, untrained lineman or electrician who it trying to puzzle out the city's electrical network.



Expect several quite nasty casualties before your new settlers' figure out how to isolate their neighborhood from the larger (uncontrolled) grid and energized. Expect a lot of destroyed hardware and perhaps a few more casualties before they learn how to control phase, voltage, and amperage reliably.



2) On the dam itself, your new crewfolk are also trying to handle high volumes of high pressure water through the turbines and the spillways. Again, without proper equipment or training, expect some on-the-job casualties as they learn the hard way.



3) Finally, the dam itself requires maintenance and observation lest the structure fail catastrophically. One hopes that among the new settlers are a skilled hydrologist and a good structural engineer, because repairing a breached dam is definitely another skill you don't want to learn on-the-job...and one hopes the settlers' neighborhood isn't downstream of the breach.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Keep in mind: this query has a "hard science" tag attached: you need to provide external links to reliable academic, scientific or engineering related resources. Wikipedia does not count.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Wikipedia does count. "arXiv can be quite good for citations, though Wikipedia is usually OK too." From the hard-science tag description.
    $endgroup$
    – Bilbo Baggins
    6 hours ago


















3












$begingroup$

Yes



With a little work it is completely possibly, you just need to cut off unused parts of the grid. This can be done by literally cutting lines or going to transmission stations a shutting down different parts. You are either using an existing microgrid or creating one by cutting apart a larger grid. Grids have to be built to be sectioned off, otherwise every downed powerline would shutdown an entire city. Many places even have existing microgrids for military bases, college campuses, and hospitals. Small power plants often have small local grids as well.



Not only can most hydroplants supply their own power most are designed to run that way, separate generators may be used for start up but the powerplant runs off its own power, it does not make a lot of sense to build parts of a power plant that need anything but the plants electricity for normal running, it just adds unneeded complexity and points of failure. There is not actually much to smaller hydro electric plants.



This does not mean it is easy, you need skilled technicians to close off the grid and to keep it running, but an existing microgrid will make it easier. You also need maintenance, which dam will determine how hard this is. Some dams need little upkeep in an off themselves at least compared to others, this is determined by size and design. There is a big difference between the hoover dam and the Rutherford Creek dam. There are actually a lot of small hydroelectric dams which are fairly low maintenance.






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    3 Answers
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    3 Answers
    3






    active

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    active

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    $begingroup$

    On September 28 2003, Italy experienced a nation wide black out.




    After three hours, energy was restored in northern regions. Electricity was restored gradually in most places, and in most cities electricity was powered on again during the morning.




    Energy was restored first in the northern region because there is where hydroelectric plants are located, and they could be used to power back the other plants, needing electricity to start up and operate. Ref.1 Ref.2



    As long as you isolate the network that you want to supply from the network that you don't want to supply, you can use the hydroelectric plant as standalone for quite some time. (this addresses your points 2, 3 and 4). You "just" need to know the schematics of the network.



    Moreover, one of the advantages of hydroelectric plants it their flexibility




    Hydropower is a flexible source of electricity since stations can be ramped up and down very quickly to adapt to changing energy demands. Hydro turbines have a start-up time of the order of a few minutes. It takes around 60 to 90 seconds to bring a unit from cold start-up to full load; this is much shorter than for gas turbines or steam plants. Power generation can also be decreased quickly when there is a surplus power generation.




    This is particularly important if you are supplying a relatively small city with not too much load, where load fluctuations might be relatively large.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      I've already given you thumbs up. I was going to say the same thing. Other events show the same general thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The generating station on Niagara Falls never went off line, and the city of Niagara Falls never went dark. The station was one of the "anchors" when the grid was being restored, and allowed the communication grid to be powered to help stations coordinate as they came back on line.
      $endgroup$
      – puppetsock
      8 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Gnitpique: simply because the OP placed a "hard science" tag on their query, you might consider placing links to newpaper or journal articles for the event & history in question -- a source other than Wikipedia -- in order to satisfy the "other citations" and "empirical evidence" requirements. WP itself claims that it is is not a reliable source for academic writing or research which means it really can't be used to defend a hard science response.
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      @elemtilas, added reference to italian newspaper of the period
      $endgroup$
      – L.Dutch
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Awesome! -- Thanks for doing that! Deffo +1 now!
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago















    14












    $begingroup$

    On September 28 2003, Italy experienced a nation wide black out.




    After three hours, energy was restored in northern regions. Electricity was restored gradually in most places, and in most cities electricity was powered on again during the morning.




    Energy was restored first in the northern region because there is where hydroelectric plants are located, and they could be used to power back the other plants, needing electricity to start up and operate. Ref.1 Ref.2



    As long as you isolate the network that you want to supply from the network that you don't want to supply, you can use the hydroelectric plant as standalone for quite some time. (this addresses your points 2, 3 and 4). You "just" need to know the schematics of the network.



    Moreover, one of the advantages of hydroelectric plants it their flexibility




    Hydropower is a flexible source of electricity since stations can be ramped up and down very quickly to adapt to changing energy demands. Hydro turbines have a start-up time of the order of a few minutes. It takes around 60 to 90 seconds to bring a unit from cold start-up to full load; this is much shorter than for gas turbines or steam plants. Power generation can also be decreased quickly when there is a surplus power generation.




    This is particularly important if you are supplying a relatively small city with not too much load, where load fluctuations might be relatively large.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      I've already given you thumbs up. I was going to say the same thing. Other events show the same general thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The generating station on Niagara Falls never went off line, and the city of Niagara Falls never went dark. The station was one of the "anchors" when the grid was being restored, and allowed the communication grid to be powered to help stations coordinate as they came back on line.
      $endgroup$
      – puppetsock
      8 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Gnitpique: simply because the OP placed a "hard science" tag on their query, you might consider placing links to newpaper or journal articles for the event & history in question -- a source other than Wikipedia -- in order to satisfy the "other citations" and "empirical evidence" requirements. WP itself claims that it is is not a reliable source for academic writing or research which means it really can't be used to defend a hard science response.
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      @elemtilas, added reference to italian newspaper of the period
      $endgroup$
      – L.Dutch
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Awesome! -- Thanks for doing that! Deffo +1 now!
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago













    14












    14








    14





    $begingroup$

    On September 28 2003, Italy experienced a nation wide black out.




    After three hours, energy was restored in northern regions. Electricity was restored gradually in most places, and in most cities electricity was powered on again during the morning.




    Energy was restored first in the northern region because there is where hydroelectric plants are located, and they could be used to power back the other plants, needing electricity to start up and operate. Ref.1 Ref.2



    As long as you isolate the network that you want to supply from the network that you don't want to supply, you can use the hydroelectric plant as standalone for quite some time. (this addresses your points 2, 3 and 4). You "just" need to know the schematics of the network.



    Moreover, one of the advantages of hydroelectric plants it their flexibility




    Hydropower is a flexible source of electricity since stations can be ramped up and down very quickly to adapt to changing energy demands. Hydro turbines have a start-up time of the order of a few minutes. It takes around 60 to 90 seconds to bring a unit from cold start-up to full load; this is much shorter than for gas turbines or steam plants. Power generation can also be decreased quickly when there is a surplus power generation.




    This is particularly important if you are supplying a relatively small city with not too much load, where load fluctuations might be relatively large.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    On September 28 2003, Italy experienced a nation wide black out.




    After three hours, energy was restored in northern regions. Electricity was restored gradually in most places, and in most cities electricity was powered on again during the morning.




    Energy was restored first in the northern region because there is where hydroelectric plants are located, and they could be used to power back the other plants, needing electricity to start up and operate. Ref.1 Ref.2



    As long as you isolate the network that you want to supply from the network that you don't want to supply, you can use the hydroelectric plant as standalone for quite some time. (this addresses your points 2, 3 and 4). You "just" need to know the schematics of the network.



    Moreover, one of the advantages of hydroelectric plants it their flexibility




    Hydropower is a flexible source of electricity since stations can be ramped up and down very quickly to adapt to changing energy demands. Hydro turbines have a start-up time of the order of a few minutes. It takes around 60 to 90 seconds to bring a unit from cold start-up to full load; this is much shorter than for gas turbines or steam plants. Power generation can also be decreased quickly when there is a surplus power generation.




    This is particularly important if you are supplying a relatively small city with not too much load, where load fluctuations might be relatively large.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 8 hours ago

























    answered 8 hours ago









    L.DutchL.Dutch

    101k32 gold badges238 silver badges486 bronze badges




    101k32 gold badges238 silver badges486 bronze badges











    • $begingroup$
      I've already given you thumbs up. I was going to say the same thing. Other events show the same general thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The generating station on Niagara Falls never went off line, and the city of Niagara Falls never went dark. The station was one of the "anchors" when the grid was being restored, and allowed the communication grid to be powered to help stations coordinate as they came back on line.
      $endgroup$
      – puppetsock
      8 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Gnitpique: simply because the OP placed a "hard science" tag on their query, you might consider placing links to newpaper or journal articles for the event & history in question -- a source other than Wikipedia -- in order to satisfy the "other citations" and "empirical evidence" requirements. WP itself claims that it is is not a reliable source for academic writing or research which means it really can't be used to defend a hard science response.
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      @elemtilas, added reference to italian newspaper of the period
      $endgroup$
      – L.Dutch
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Awesome! -- Thanks for doing that! Deffo +1 now!
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago
















    • $begingroup$
      I've already given you thumbs up. I was going to say the same thing. Other events show the same general thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The generating station on Niagara Falls never went off line, and the city of Niagara Falls never went dark. The station was one of the "anchors" when the grid was being restored, and allowed the communication grid to be powered to help stations coordinate as they came back on line.
      $endgroup$
      – puppetsock
      8 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Gnitpique: simply because the OP placed a "hard science" tag on their query, you might consider placing links to newpaper or journal articles for the event & history in question -- a source other than Wikipedia -- in order to satisfy the "other citations" and "empirical evidence" requirements. WP itself claims that it is is not a reliable source for academic writing or research which means it really can't be used to defend a hard science response.
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      @elemtilas, added reference to italian newspaper of the period
      $endgroup$
      – L.Dutch
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Awesome! -- Thanks for doing that! Deffo +1 now!
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago















    $begingroup$
    I've already given you thumbs up. I was going to say the same thing. Other events show the same general thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The generating station on Niagara Falls never went off line, and the city of Niagara Falls never went dark. The station was one of the "anchors" when the grid was being restored, and allowed the communication grid to be powered to help stations coordinate as they came back on line.
    $endgroup$
    – puppetsock
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    I've already given you thumbs up. I was going to say the same thing. Other events show the same general thing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 The generating station on Niagara Falls never went off line, and the city of Niagara Falls never went dark. The station was one of the "anchors" when the grid was being restored, and allowed the communication grid to be powered to help stations coordinate as they came back on line.
    $endgroup$
    – puppetsock
    8 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Gnitpique: simply because the OP placed a "hard science" tag on their query, you might consider placing links to newpaper or journal articles for the event & history in question -- a source other than Wikipedia -- in order to satisfy the "other citations" and "empirical evidence" requirements. WP itself claims that it is is not a reliable source for academic writing or research which means it really can't be used to defend a hard science response.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago





    $begingroup$
    Gnitpique: simply because the OP placed a "hard science" tag on their query, you might consider placing links to newpaper or journal articles for the event & history in question -- a source other than Wikipedia -- in order to satisfy the "other citations" and "empirical evidence" requirements. WP itself claims that it is is not a reliable source for academic writing or research which means it really can't be used to defend a hard science response.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago













    $begingroup$
    @elemtilas, added reference to italian newspaper of the period
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @elemtilas, added reference to italian newspaper of the period
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    Awesome! -- Thanks for doing that! Deffo +1 now!
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Awesome! -- Thanks for doing that! Deffo +1 now!
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago













    3












    $begingroup$

    Hydroelectric dams are definitely not maintenance-free, nor are power grids. You have three life-threatening problems for your small band of experimenters.



    1) Grid power is really dangerous and complex for the inexperienced. It's quite possibly fatal for the new, inadequately equipped, untrained lineman or electrician who it trying to puzzle out the city's electrical network.



    Expect several quite nasty casualties before your new settlers' figure out how to isolate their neighborhood from the larger (uncontrolled) grid and energized. Expect a lot of destroyed hardware and perhaps a few more casualties before they learn how to control phase, voltage, and amperage reliably.



    2) On the dam itself, your new crewfolk are also trying to handle high volumes of high pressure water through the turbines and the spillways. Again, without proper equipment or training, expect some on-the-job casualties as they learn the hard way.



    3) Finally, the dam itself requires maintenance and observation lest the structure fail catastrophically. One hopes that among the new settlers are a skilled hydrologist and a good structural engineer, because repairing a breached dam is definitely another skill you don't want to learn on-the-job...and one hopes the settlers' neighborhood isn't downstream of the breach.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Keep in mind: this query has a "hard science" tag attached: you need to provide external links to reliable academic, scientific or engineering related resources. Wikipedia does not count.
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago







    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Wikipedia does count. "arXiv can be quite good for citations, though Wikipedia is usually OK too." From the hard-science tag description.
      $endgroup$
      – Bilbo Baggins
      6 hours ago















    3












    $begingroup$

    Hydroelectric dams are definitely not maintenance-free, nor are power grids. You have three life-threatening problems for your small band of experimenters.



    1) Grid power is really dangerous and complex for the inexperienced. It's quite possibly fatal for the new, inadequately equipped, untrained lineman or electrician who it trying to puzzle out the city's electrical network.



    Expect several quite nasty casualties before your new settlers' figure out how to isolate their neighborhood from the larger (uncontrolled) grid and energized. Expect a lot of destroyed hardware and perhaps a few more casualties before they learn how to control phase, voltage, and amperage reliably.



    2) On the dam itself, your new crewfolk are also trying to handle high volumes of high pressure water through the turbines and the spillways. Again, without proper equipment or training, expect some on-the-job casualties as they learn the hard way.



    3) Finally, the dam itself requires maintenance and observation lest the structure fail catastrophically. One hopes that among the new settlers are a skilled hydrologist and a good structural engineer, because repairing a breached dam is definitely another skill you don't want to learn on-the-job...and one hopes the settlers' neighborhood isn't downstream of the breach.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Keep in mind: this query has a "hard science" tag attached: you need to provide external links to reliable academic, scientific or engineering related resources. Wikipedia does not count.
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago







    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Wikipedia does count. "arXiv can be quite good for citations, though Wikipedia is usually OK too." From the hard-science tag description.
      $endgroup$
      – Bilbo Baggins
      6 hours ago













    3












    3








    3





    $begingroup$

    Hydroelectric dams are definitely not maintenance-free, nor are power grids. You have three life-threatening problems for your small band of experimenters.



    1) Grid power is really dangerous and complex for the inexperienced. It's quite possibly fatal for the new, inadequately equipped, untrained lineman or electrician who it trying to puzzle out the city's electrical network.



    Expect several quite nasty casualties before your new settlers' figure out how to isolate their neighborhood from the larger (uncontrolled) grid and energized. Expect a lot of destroyed hardware and perhaps a few more casualties before they learn how to control phase, voltage, and amperage reliably.



    2) On the dam itself, your new crewfolk are also trying to handle high volumes of high pressure water through the turbines and the spillways. Again, without proper equipment or training, expect some on-the-job casualties as they learn the hard way.



    3) Finally, the dam itself requires maintenance and observation lest the structure fail catastrophically. One hopes that among the new settlers are a skilled hydrologist and a good structural engineer, because repairing a breached dam is definitely another skill you don't want to learn on-the-job...and one hopes the settlers' neighborhood isn't downstream of the breach.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Hydroelectric dams are definitely not maintenance-free, nor are power grids. You have three life-threatening problems for your small band of experimenters.



    1) Grid power is really dangerous and complex for the inexperienced. It's quite possibly fatal for the new, inadequately equipped, untrained lineman or electrician who it trying to puzzle out the city's electrical network.



    Expect several quite nasty casualties before your new settlers' figure out how to isolate their neighborhood from the larger (uncontrolled) grid and energized. Expect a lot of destroyed hardware and perhaps a few more casualties before they learn how to control phase, voltage, and amperage reliably.



    2) On the dam itself, your new crewfolk are also trying to handle high volumes of high pressure water through the turbines and the spillways. Again, without proper equipment or training, expect some on-the-job casualties as they learn the hard way.



    3) Finally, the dam itself requires maintenance and observation lest the structure fail catastrophically. One hopes that among the new settlers are a skilled hydrologist and a good structural engineer, because repairing a breached dam is definitely another skill you don't want to learn on-the-job...and one hopes the settlers' neighborhood isn't downstream of the breach.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 8 hours ago









    user535733user535733

    9,9812 gold badges22 silver badges43 bronze badges




    9,9812 gold badges22 silver badges43 bronze badges











    • $begingroup$
      Keep in mind: this query has a "hard science" tag attached: you need to provide external links to reliable academic, scientific or engineering related resources. Wikipedia does not count.
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago







    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Wikipedia does count. "arXiv can be quite good for citations, though Wikipedia is usually OK too." From the hard-science tag description.
      $endgroup$
      – Bilbo Baggins
      6 hours ago
















    • $begingroup$
      Keep in mind: this query has a "hard science" tag attached: you need to provide external links to reliable academic, scientific or engineering related resources. Wikipedia does not count.
      $endgroup$
      – elemtilas
      8 hours ago







    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Wikipedia does count. "arXiv can be quite good for citations, though Wikipedia is usually OK too." From the hard-science tag description.
      $endgroup$
      – Bilbo Baggins
      6 hours ago















    $begingroup$
    Keep in mind: this query has a "hard science" tag attached: you need to provide external links to reliable academic, scientific or engineering related resources. Wikipedia does not count.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago





    $begingroup$
    Keep in mind: this query has a "hard science" tag attached: you need to provide external links to reliable academic, scientific or engineering related resources. Wikipedia does not count.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    8 hours ago





    2




    2




    $begingroup$
    Wikipedia does count. "arXiv can be quite good for citations, though Wikipedia is usually OK too." From the hard-science tag description.
    $endgroup$
    – Bilbo Baggins
    6 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Wikipedia does count. "arXiv can be quite good for citations, though Wikipedia is usually OK too." From the hard-science tag description.
    $endgroup$
    – Bilbo Baggins
    6 hours ago











    3












    $begingroup$

    Yes



    With a little work it is completely possibly, you just need to cut off unused parts of the grid. This can be done by literally cutting lines or going to transmission stations a shutting down different parts. You are either using an existing microgrid or creating one by cutting apart a larger grid. Grids have to be built to be sectioned off, otherwise every downed powerline would shutdown an entire city. Many places even have existing microgrids for military bases, college campuses, and hospitals. Small power plants often have small local grids as well.



    Not only can most hydroplants supply their own power most are designed to run that way, separate generators may be used for start up but the powerplant runs off its own power, it does not make a lot of sense to build parts of a power plant that need anything but the plants electricity for normal running, it just adds unneeded complexity and points of failure. There is not actually much to smaller hydro electric plants.



    This does not mean it is easy, you need skilled technicians to close off the grid and to keep it running, but an existing microgrid will make it easier. You also need maintenance, which dam will determine how hard this is. Some dams need little upkeep in an off themselves at least compared to others, this is determined by size and design. There is a big difference between the hoover dam and the Rutherford Creek dam. There are actually a lot of small hydroelectric dams which are fairly low maintenance.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$

















      3












      $begingroup$

      Yes



      With a little work it is completely possibly, you just need to cut off unused parts of the grid. This can be done by literally cutting lines or going to transmission stations a shutting down different parts. You are either using an existing microgrid or creating one by cutting apart a larger grid. Grids have to be built to be sectioned off, otherwise every downed powerline would shutdown an entire city. Many places even have existing microgrids for military bases, college campuses, and hospitals. Small power plants often have small local grids as well.



      Not only can most hydroplants supply their own power most are designed to run that way, separate generators may be used for start up but the powerplant runs off its own power, it does not make a lot of sense to build parts of a power plant that need anything but the plants electricity for normal running, it just adds unneeded complexity and points of failure. There is not actually much to smaller hydro electric plants.



      This does not mean it is easy, you need skilled technicians to close off the grid and to keep it running, but an existing microgrid will make it easier. You also need maintenance, which dam will determine how hard this is. Some dams need little upkeep in an off themselves at least compared to others, this is determined by size and design. There is a big difference between the hoover dam and the Rutherford Creek dam. There are actually a lot of small hydroelectric dams which are fairly low maintenance.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$















        3












        3








        3





        $begingroup$

        Yes



        With a little work it is completely possibly, you just need to cut off unused parts of the grid. This can be done by literally cutting lines or going to transmission stations a shutting down different parts. You are either using an existing microgrid or creating one by cutting apart a larger grid. Grids have to be built to be sectioned off, otherwise every downed powerline would shutdown an entire city. Many places even have existing microgrids for military bases, college campuses, and hospitals. Small power plants often have small local grids as well.



        Not only can most hydroplants supply their own power most are designed to run that way, separate generators may be used for start up but the powerplant runs off its own power, it does not make a lot of sense to build parts of a power plant that need anything but the plants electricity for normal running, it just adds unneeded complexity and points of failure. There is not actually much to smaller hydro electric plants.



        This does not mean it is easy, you need skilled technicians to close off the grid and to keep it running, but an existing microgrid will make it easier. You also need maintenance, which dam will determine how hard this is. Some dams need little upkeep in an off themselves at least compared to others, this is determined by size and design. There is a big difference between the hoover dam and the Rutherford Creek dam. There are actually a lot of small hydroelectric dams which are fairly low maintenance.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Yes



        With a little work it is completely possibly, you just need to cut off unused parts of the grid. This can be done by literally cutting lines or going to transmission stations a shutting down different parts. You are either using an existing microgrid or creating one by cutting apart a larger grid. Grids have to be built to be sectioned off, otherwise every downed powerline would shutdown an entire city. Many places even have existing microgrids for military bases, college campuses, and hospitals. Small power plants often have small local grids as well.



        Not only can most hydroplants supply their own power most are designed to run that way, separate generators may be used for start up but the powerplant runs off its own power, it does not make a lot of sense to build parts of a power plant that need anything but the plants electricity for normal running, it just adds unneeded complexity and points of failure. There is not actually much to smaller hydro electric plants.



        This does not mean it is easy, you need skilled technicians to close off the grid and to keep it running, but an existing microgrid will make it easier. You also need maintenance, which dam will determine how hard this is. Some dams need little upkeep in an off themselves at least compared to others, this is determined by size and design. There is a big difference between the hoover dam and the Rutherford Creek dam. There are actually a lot of small hydroelectric dams which are fairly low maintenance.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 7 hours ago

























        answered 8 hours ago









        JohnJohn

        38.9k10 gold badges54 silver badges132 bronze badges




        38.9k10 gold badges54 silver badges132 bronze badges



























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