Which accidental continues through the bar?Can an accidental carry over to the next measure?Accidental in Chopin Opus. 69 No. 2What are Accidental Notes?Does an accidental apply to all octaves?Meaning of double accidentalReasoning for redundant “natural” (but not courtesy accidental)Would an accidental in a mordant still be effective for the whole measure?Will an accidental in piano sheet count for second voice as well?

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Which accidental continues through the bar?


Can an accidental carry over to the next measure?Accidental in Chopin Opus. 69 No. 2What are Accidental Notes?Does an accidental apply to all octaves?Meaning of double accidentalReasoning for redundant “natural” (but not courtesy accidental)Would an accidental in a mordant still be effective for the whole measure?Will an accidental in piano sheet count for second voice as well?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;









2















Messiaen's Prelude for Organ (no opus number, discovered posthumously in 1997, composed probably circa 1929) is rife with ambiguous accidentals. Some can be figured out by examining similar passages, but these two cases seem particularly egregious:



In bar 59, alto, are the unmarked G noteheads flat or natural?

In bar 61, alto, is the last G sharp or natural?

Can we even tell, without conducting a séance?



Asked another way: at those chromatically altered unisons in soprano and alto, which accidental applies to which voice? Is there a rule for that? If we knew the alto's accidental, we could then let it continue for the later alto notes.



(Were the note heads (or the staves!) separate, with an accidental immediately preceding each, the confusion would vanish.)



Explanations from the musical text, from a facsimile edition if such exists, or from rules of notation outweigh reports that so-and-so played it in such-and-such a way.



Messiaen, Prélude pour Orgue, bars 59 and 61, ed. Leduc










share|improve this question
































    2















    Messiaen's Prelude for Organ (no opus number, discovered posthumously in 1997, composed probably circa 1929) is rife with ambiguous accidentals. Some can be figured out by examining similar passages, but these two cases seem particularly egregious:



    In bar 59, alto, are the unmarked G noteheads flat or natural?

    In bar 61, alto, is the last G sharp or natural?

    Can we even tell, without conducting a séance?



    Asked another way: at those chromatically altered unisons in soprano and alto, which accidental applies to which voice? Is there a rule for that? If we knew the alto's accidental, we could then let it continue for the later alto notes.



    (Were the note heads (or the staves!) separate, with an accidental immediately preceding each, the confusion would vanish.)



    Explanations from the musical text, from a facsimile edition if such exists, or from rules of notation outweigh reports that so-and-so played it in such-and-such a way.



    Messiaen, Prélude pour Orgue, bars 59 and 61, ed. Leduc










    share|improve this question




























      2












      2








      2








      Messiaen's Prelude for Organ (no opus number, discovered posthumously in 1997, composed probably circa 1929) is rife with ambiguous accidentals. Some can be figured out by examining similar passages, but these two cases seem particularly egregious:



      In bar 59, alto, are the unmarked G noteheads flat or natural?

      In bar 61, alto, is the last G sharp or natural?

      Can we even tell, without conducting a séance?



      Asked another way: at those chromatically altered unisons in soprano and alto, which accidental applies to which voice? Is there a rule for that? If we knew the alto's accidental, we could then let it continue for the later alto notes.



      (Were the note heads (or the staves!) separate, with an accidental immediately preceding each, the confusion would vanish.)



      Explanations from the musical text, from a facsimile edition if such exists, or from rules of notation outweigh reports that so-and-so played it in such-and-such a way.



      Messiaen, Prélude pour Orgue, bars 59 and 61, ed. Leduc










      share|improve this question
















      Messiaen's Prelude for Organ (no opus number, discovered posthumously in 1997, composed probably circa 1929) is rife with ambiguous accidentals. Some can be figured out by examining similar passages, but these two cases seem particularly egregious:



      In bar 59, alto, are the unmarked G noteheads flat or natural?

      In bar 61, alto, is the last G sharp or natural?

      Can we even tell, without conducting a séance?



      Asked another way: at those chromatically altered unisons in soprano and alto, which accidental applies to which voice? Is there a rule for that? If we knew the alto's accidental, we could then let it continue for the later alto notes.



      (Were the note heads (or the staves!) separate, with an accidental immediately preceding each, the confusion would vanish.)



      Explanations from the musical text, from a facsimile edition if such exists, or from rules of notation outweigh reports that so-and-so played it in such-and-such a way.



      Messiaen, Prélude pour Orgue, bars 59 and 61, ed. Leduc







      notation accidentals organ






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 8 hours ago







      Camille Goudeseune

















      asked 8 hours ago









      Camille GoudeseuneCamille Goudeseune

      3,80913 silver badges29 bronze badges




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          3 Answers
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          2
















          If you make the assumption that the voices don't cross, and that the accidentals apply to the voices individually, things seem to fall into place.



          In the second half of bar 59, if the lower voice is G flat and the upper is G natural, the lower voice has the pattern



          Eb F Eb F Gb



          Eb Gb Eb Gb G



          which has some logic to it.



          Similarly in bar 61, if the upper voice is G sharp and the lower is G natural, the final G should be a natural, which repeats the D#-G tritone at the start of the bar.



          Ideally, these details should be interpreted with reference to all the rest of the score, but we don't have that available. Messiaen's music is usually highly structured, so these passages are unlikely to be just "free atonal improvisation."






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor



          guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





















          • D#-G isn't a tritone.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            6 hours ago











          • I'm accepting this answer because "no voice crossings" was the key to sleuthing out the rest of it. But I'm posting my own answer with all the icky details.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            5 hours ago


















          1
















          In bar 59, there is no point in putting the natural sign - it's not that the G note was double flatted. So it's Gnat initially, then G♭ for the subsequent two.



          In bar 61, the G♯ from the key sig. is made natural on the 1st G, then sharpened with the accidental on the 2nd, and that makes the 3rd G G♯ too.



          Straightforward, messed up by bad writing (publishing?). Not played it, but that's what it says to play.






          share|improve this answer




















          • 3





            I am not sure, but perhaps it means that the two accidentals mean that the upper voice is to be played with the first accidental and the lower voice with the second. Actually, I would write the note heads separately.

            – Jasper Habicht
            8 hours ago












          • Bar 59's natural is needed. Without it, at that doublestemmed notehead, both soprano and alto would be Gb.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            8 hours ago












          • I don't follow this reasoning for bar 61. Why can't the accidental that continues through the rest of the bar be the natural instead of the sharp?

            – Camille Goudeseune
            8 hours ago











          • Upon reflection, the signage in that bar is rubbish, for wont on a better term.

            – Tim
            7 hours ago


















          1

















          1. Here's the argument for bar 59's altered unison's soprano being G natural (and thus alto G flat).



            • In the whole piece, voices never cross. At least not more than a
              semitone in cases like these, so it would be statistically odd to
              have only those as voice crossings. Simpler to say that none were
              intended at all.


            • In bars 58-60, soprano traces out G natural rising to D, filled in
              variously.


            • Were bar 59 alto's last note G natural, then it would have been tied
              to the G natural immediately across the barline. Every other
              repeated notehead in the whole piece, even across voices and across
              staves, is scrupulously tied, e.g. bar 61's A-A. This happens at least
              a hundred times. So alto must be G flat, and hence soprano must be G natural.



          2. Beyond no voice crossings, the only argument for bar 61's altered unison's alto being G natural is that it avoids
            making the bar's final chord a prominent open fifth, which would be
            a purposelessly startling consonance in this densely harmonic texture. There's no parallel passage to compare this bar to.



          Gardner Read's "Music Notation," 2nd ed., pp. 73-74, covers how to stem and mark altered unisons.
          But it says nothing about
          the case at hand. All the examples use multiple note heads, to prevent
          ambiguity about which accidental applies to which voice. By forbidding a single
          notehead (even two-stemmed) with multiple accidentals, this avoids inventing
          a morass of rules such as "the first accidental applies to the upper voice."



          So the published notation is rubbish. Even if the manuscript used this notation and the editor was too reverential to improve it, at least a footnote to that effect would have been justified!






          share|improve this answer


























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            3 Answers
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            If you make the assumption that the voices don't cross, and that the accidentals apply to the voices individually, things seem to fall into place.



            In the second half of bar 59, if the lower voice is G flat and the upper is G natural, the lower voice has the pattern



            Eb F Eb F Gb



            Eb Gb Eb Gb G



            which has some logic to it.



            Similarly in bar 61, if the upper voice is G sharp and the lower is G natural, the final G should be a natural, which repeats the D#-G tritone at the start of the bar.



            Ideally, these details should be interpreted with reference to all the rest of the score, but we don't have that available. Messiaen's music is usually highly structured, so these passages are unlikely to be just "free atonal improvisation."






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor



            guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





















            • D#-G isn't a tritone.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              6 hours ago











            • I'm accepting this answer because "no voice crossings" was the key to sleuthing out the rest of it. But I'm posting my own answer with all the icky details.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              5 hours ago















            2
















            If you make the assumption that the voices don't cross, and that the accidentals apply to the voices individually, things seem to fall into place.



            In the second half of bar 59, if the lower voice is G flat and the upper is G natural, the lower voice has the pattern



            Eb F Eb F Gb



            Eb Gb Eb Gb G



            which has some logic to it.



            Similarly in bar 61, if the upper voice is G sharp and the lower is G natural, the final G should be a natural, which repeats the D#-G tritone at the start of the bar.



            Ideally, these details should be interpreted with reference to all the rest of the score, but we don't have that available. Messiaen's music is usually highly structured, so these passages are unlikely to be just "free atonal improvisation."






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor



            guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





















            • D#-G isn't a tritone.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              6 hours ago











            • I'm accepting this answer because "no voice crossings" was the key to sleuthing out the rest of it. But I'm posting my own answer with all the icky details.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              5 hours ago













            2














            2










            2









            If you make the assumption that the voices don't cross, and that the accidentals apply to the voices individually, things seem to fall into place.



            In the second half of bar 59, if the lower voice is G flat and the upper is G natural, the lower voice has the pattern



            Eb F Eb F Gb



            Eb Gb Eb Gb G



            which has some logic to it.



            Similarly in bar 61, if the upper voice is G sharp and the lower is G natural, the final G should be a natural, which repeats the D#-G tritone at the start of the bar.



            Ideally, these details should be interpreted with reference to all the rest of the score, but we don't have that available. Messiaen's music is usually highly structured, so these passages are unlikely to be just "free atonal improvisation."






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor



            guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            If you make the assumption that the voices don't cross, and that the accidentals apply to the voices individually, things seem to fall into place.



            In the second half of bar 59, if the lower voice is G flat and the upper is G natural, the lower voice has the pattern



            Eb F Eb F Gb



            Eb Gb Eb Gb G



            which has some logic to it.



            Similarly in bar 61, if the upper voice is G sharp and the lower is G natural, the final G should be a natural, which repeats the D#-G tritone at the start of the bar.



            Ideally, these details should be interpreted with reference to all the rest of the score, but we don't have that available. Messiaen's music is usually highly structured, so these passages are unlikely to be just "free atonal improvisation."







            share|improve this answer








            New contributor



            guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.








            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer






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            answered 7 hours ago









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            • D#-G isn't a tritone.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              6 hours ago











            • I'm accepting this answer because "no voice crossings" was the key to sleuthing out the rest of it. But I'm posting my own answer with all the icky details.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              5 hours ago

















            • D#-G isn't a tritone.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              6 hours ago











            • I'm accepting this answer because "no voice crossings" was the key to sleuthing out the rest of it. But I'm posting my own answer with all the icky details.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              5 hours ago
















            D#-G isn't a tritone.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            6 hours ago





            D#-G isn't a tritone.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            6 hours ago













            I'm accepting this answer because "no voice crossings" was the key to sleuthing out the rest of it. But I'm posting my own answer with all the icky details.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            5 hours ago





            I'm accepting this answer because "no voice crossings" was the key to sleuthing out the rest of it. But I'm posting my own answer with all the icky details.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            5 hours ago













            1
















            In bar 59, there is no point in putting the natural sign - it's not that the G note was double flatted. So it's Gnat initially, then G♭ for the subsequent two.



            In bar 61, the G♯ from the key sig. is made natural on the 1st G, then sharpened with the accidental on the 2nd, and that makes the 3rd G G♯ too.



            Straightforward, messed up by bad writing (publishing?). Not played it, but that's what it says to play.






            share|improve this answer




















            • 3





              I am not sure, but perhaps it means that the two accidentals mean that the upper voice is to be played with the first accidental and the lower voice with the second. Actually, I would write the note heads separately.

              – Jasper Habicht
              8 hours ago












            • Bar 59's natural is needed. Without it, at that doublestemmed notehead, both soprano and alto would be Gb.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              8 hours ago












            • I don't follow this reasoning for bar 61. Why can't the accidental that continues through the rest of the bar be the natural instead of the sharp?

              – Camille Goudeseune
              8 hours ago











            • Upon reflection, the signage in that bar is rubbish, for wont on a better term.

              – Tim
              7 hours ago















            1
















            In bar 59, there is no point in putting the natural sign - it's not that the G note was double flatted. So it's Gnat initially, then G♭ for the subsequent two.



            In bar 61, the G♯ from the key sig. is made natural on the 1st G, then sharpened with the accidental on the 2nd, and that makes the 3rd G G♯ too.



            Straightforward, messed up by bad writing (publishing?). Not played it, but that's what it says to play.






            share|improve this answer




















            • 3





              I am not sure, but perhaps it means that the two accidentals mean that the upper voice is to be played with the first accidental and the lower voice with the second. Actually, I would write the note heads separately.

              – Jasper Habicht
              8 hours ago












            • Bar 59's natural is needed. Without it, at that doublestemmed notehead, both soprano and alto would be Gb.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              8 hours ago












            • I don't follow this reasoning for bar 61. Why can't the accidental that continues through the rest of the bar be the natural instead of the sharp?

              – Camille Goudeseune
              8 hours ago











            • Upon reflection, the signage in that bar is rubbish, for wont on a better term.

              – Tim
              7 hours ago













            1














            1










            1









            In bar 59, there is no point in putting the natural sign - it's not that the G note was double flatted. So it's Gnat initially, then G♭ for the subsequent two.



            In bar 61, the G♯ from the key sig. is made natural on the 1st G, then sharpened with the accidental on the 2nd, and that makes the 3rd G G♯ too.



            Straightforward, messed up by bad writing (publishing?). Not played it, but that's what it says to play.






            share|improve this answer













            In bar 59, there is no point in putting the natural sign - it's not that the G note was double flatted. So it's Gnat initially, then G♭ for the subsequent two.



            In bar 61, the G♯ from the key sig. is made natural on the 1st G, then sharpened with the accidental on the 2nd, and that makes the 3rd G G♯ too.



            Straightforward, messed up by bad writing (publishing?). Not played it, but that's what it says to play.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 8 hours ago









            TimTim

            115k12 gold badges113 silver badges290 bronze badges




            115k12 gold badges113 silver badges290 bronze badges










            • 3





              I am not sure, but perhaps it means that the two accidentals mean that the upper voice is to be played with the first accidental and the lower voice with the second. Actually, I would write the note heads separately.

              – Jasper Habicht
              8 hours ago












            • Bar 59's natural is needed. Without it, at that doublestemmed notehead, both soprano and alto would be Gb.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              8 hours ago












            • I don't follow this reasoning for bar 61. Why can't the accidental that continues through the rest of the bar be the natural instead of the sharp?

              – Camille Goudeseune
              8 hours ago











            • Upon reflection, the signage in that bar is rubbish, for wont on a better term.

              – Tim
              7 hours ago












            • 3





              I am not sure, but perhaps it means that the two accidentals mean that the upper voice is to be played with the first accidental and the lower voice with the second. Actually, I would write the note heads separately.

              – Jasper Habicht
              8 hours ago












            • Bar 59's natural is needed. Without it, at that doublestemmed notehead, both soprano and alto would be Gb.

              – Camille Goudeseune
              8 hours ago












            • I don't follow this reasoning for bar 61. Why can't the accidental that continues through the rest of the bar be the natural instead of the sharp?

              – Camille Goudeseune
              8 hours ago











            • Upon reflection, the signage in that bar is rubbish, for wont on a better term.

              – Tim
              7 hours ago







            3




            3





            I am not sure, but perhaps it means that the two accidentals mean that the upper voice is to be played with the first accidental and the lower voice with the second. Actually, I would write the note heads separately.

            – Jasper Habicht
            8 hours ago






            I am not sure, but perhaps it means that the two accidentals mean that the upper voice is to be played with the first accidental and the lower voice with the second. Actually, I would write the note heads separately.

            – Jasper Habicht
            8 hours ago














            Bar 59's natural is needed. Without it, at that doublestemmed notehead, both soprano and alto would be Gb.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            8 hours ago






            Bar 59's natural is needed. Without it, at that doublestemmed notehead, both soprano and alto would be Gb.

            – Camille Goudeseune
            8 hours ago














            I don't follow this reasoning for bar 61. Why can't the accidental that continues through the rest of the bar be the natural instead of the sharp?

            – Camille Goudeseune
            8 hours ago





            I don't follow this reasoning for bar 61. Why can't the accidental that continues through the rest of the bar be the natural instead of the sharp?

            – Camille Goudeseune
            8 hours ago













            Upon reflection, the signage in that bar is rubbish, for wont on a better term.

            – Tim
            7 hours ago





            Upon reflection, the signage in that bar is rubbish, for wont on a better term.

            – Tim
            7 hours ago











            1

















            1. Here's the argument for bar 59's altered unison's soprano being G natural (and thus alto G flat).



              • In the whole piece, voices never cross. At least not more than a
                semitone in cases like these, so it would be statistically odd to
                have only those as voice crossings. Simpler to say that none were
                intended at all.


              • In bars 58-60, soprano traces out G natural rising to D, filled in
                variously.


              • Were bar 59 alto's last note G natural, then it would have been tied
                to the G natural immediately across the barline. Every other
                repeated notehead in the whole piece, even across voices and across
                staves, is scrupulously tied, e.g. bar 61's A-A. This happens at least
                a hundred times. So alto must be G flat, and hence soprano must be G natural.



            2. Beyond no voice crossings, the only argument for bar 61's altered unison's alto being G natural is that it avoids
              making the bar's final chord a prominent open fifth, which would be
              a purposelessly startling consonance in this densely harmonic texture. There's no parallel passage to compare this bar to.



            Gardner Read's "Music Notation," 2nd ed., pp. 73-74, covers how to stem and mark altered unisons.
            But it says nothing about
            the case at hand. All the examples use multiple note heads, to prevent
            ambiguity about which accidental applies to which voice. By forbidding a single
            notehead (even two-stemmed) with multiple accidentals, this avoids inventing
            a morass of rules such as "the first accidental applies to the upper voice."



            So the published notation is rubbish. Even if the manuscript used this notation and the editor was too reverential to improve it, at least a footnote to that effect would have been justified!






            share|improve this answer





























              1

















              1. Here's the argument for bar 59's altered unison's soprano being G natural (and thus alto G flat).



                • In the whole piece, voices never cross. At least not more than a
                  semitone in cases like these, so it would be statistically odd to
                  have only those as voice crossings. Simpler to say that none were
                  intended at all.


                • In bars 58-60, soprano traces out G natural rising to D, filled in
                  variously.


                • Were bar 59 alto's last note G natural, then it would have been tied
                  to the G natural immediately across the barline. Every other
                  repeated notehead in the whole piece, even across voices and across
                  staves, is scrupulously tied, e.g. bar 61's A-A. This happens at least
                  a hundred times. So alto must be G flat, and hence soprano must be G natural.



              2. Beyond no voice crossings, the only argument for bar 61's altered unison's alto being G natural is that it avoids
                making the bar's final chord a prominent open fifth, which would be
                a purposelessly startling consonance in this densely harmonic texture. There's no parallel passage to compare this bar to.



              Gardner Read's "Music Notation," 2nd ed., pp. 73-74, covers how to stem and mark altered unisons.
              But it says nothing about
              the case at hand. All the examples use multiple note heads, to prevent
              ambiguity about which accidental applies to which voice. By forbidding a single
              notehead (even two-stemmed) with multiple accidentals, this avoids inventing
              a morass of rules such as "the first accidental applies to the upper voice."



              So the published notation is rubbish. Even if the manuscript used this notation and the editor was too reverential to improve it, at least a footnote to that effect would have been justified!






              share|improve this answer



























                1














                1










                1










                1. Here's the argument for bar 59's altered unison's soprano being G natural (and thus alto G flat).



                  • In the whole piece, voices never cross. At least not more than a
                    semitone in cases like these, so it would be statistically odd to
                    have only those as voice crossings. Simpler to say that none were
                    intended at all.


                  • In bars 58-60, soprano traces out G natural rising to D, filled in
                    variously.


                  • Were bar 59 alto's last note G natural, then it would have been tied
                    to the G natural immediately across the barline. Every other
                    repeated notehead in the whole piece, even across voices and across
                    staves, is scrupulously tied, e.g. bar 61's A-A. This happens at least
                    a hundred times. So alto must be G flat, and hence soprano must be G natural.



                2. Beyond no voice crossings, the only argument for bar 61's altered unison's alto being G natural is that it avoids
                  making the bar's final chord a prominent open fifth, which would be
                  a purposelessly startling consonance in this densely harmonic texture. There's no parallel passage to compare this bar to.



                Gardner Read's "Music Notation," 2nd ed., pp. 73-74, covers how to stem and mark altered unisons.
                But it says nothing about
                the case at hand. All the examples use multiple note heads, to prevent
                ambiguity about which accidental applies to which voice. By forbidding a single
                notehead (even two-stemmed) with multiple accidentals, this avoids inventing
                a morass of rules such as "the first accidental applies to the upper voice."



                So the published notation is rubbish. Even if the manuscript used this notation and the editor was too reverential to improve it, at least a footnote to that effect would have been justified!






                share|improve this answer














                1. Here's the argument for bar 59's altered unison's soprano being G natural (and thus alto G flat).



                  • In the whole piece, voices never cross. At least not more than a
                    semitone in cases like these, so it would be statistically odd to
                    have only those as voice crossings. Simpler to say that none were
                    intended at all.


                  • In bars 58-60, soprano traces out G natural rising to D, filled in
                    variously.


                  • Were bar 59 alto's last note G natural, then it would have been tied
                    to the G natural immediately across the barline. Every other
                    repeated notehead in the whole piece, even across voices and across
                    staves, is scrupulously tied, e.g. bar 61's A-A. This happens at least
                    a hundred times. So alto must be G flat, and hence soprano must be G natural.



                2. Beyond no voice crossings, the only argument for bar 61's altered unison's alto being G natural is that it avoids
                  making the bar's final chord a prominent open fifth, which would be
                  a purposelessly startling consonance in this densely harmonic texture. There's no parallel passage to compare this bar to.



                Gardner Read's "Music Notation," 2nd ed., pp. 73-74, covers how to stem and mark altered unisons.
                But it says nothing about
                the case at hand. All the examples use multiple note heads, to prevent
                ambiguity about which accidental applies to which voice. By forbidding a single
                notehead (even two-stemmed) with multiple accidentals, this avoids inventing
                a morass of rules such as "the first accidental applies to the upper voice."



                So the published notation is rubbish. Even if the manuscript used this notation and the editor was too reverential to improve it, at least a footnote to that effect would have been justified!







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 5 hours ago









                Camille GoudeseuneCamille Goudeseune

                3,80913 silver badges29 bronze badges




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