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Which modern firearm should a time traveler bring to be easily reproducible for a historic civilization?
Could medieval people produce automatic firearms if they had access to the schematics?What services could a time traveller offer a medieval king?Bringing potatoes to the middle agesBalanced diet for a time travelerHow would a lack of smokeless propellant affect WW1?How do I manage memetic infection while time traveling?Logical explanations for the corpse of a time travelerPlausible reason why a time machine would be built in a 1990s era sports car?First innovation for time traveler to low-tech societyFirearm ammunition surviving 200 years
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Eureka! Our hero just discovered the secret of time travel, but what to do with it? "I know!", he says. "I will travel back in time as far as I can and hand them a modern firearm. They will learn how it works, and they will be technologically superior and dominate the world with me as their leader!"
At least, that's the idea.
The Time Machine
The Time Machine is a rough prototype, so it is best not to travel back and forth too often. In fact, once jumped back in time enough, it's possible that you can't ever jump back forward. As a result, the hero cannot just continuously jump back and forth in time to transport a lot of modern equipment. He has one chance, and one chance only.
Furthermore, the Time Machine is able to travel through time and, contrary to the name, space. The Time Machine can pick any past date, time and location, and the Time Machine would bring the hero there. It is not perfectly accurate though, so you might end a year sooner or later, or somewhere within a kilometer of the target.
The Hero
Our Hero is a scientist, but not a brilliant engineer. While he does have rudimentary knowledge of firearms, he cannot perfectly describe what every single component of the gun does, nor how it is produced. He might be able to explain that a striker works by using a spring to propel a metal stick against the primer, which explodes, in turn ignites the powder and thus propels the bullet forward.
He is also not a chemist. He doesn't know how modern smokeless powder is made, but he did look up how old black powder was made and he is reasonably certain he could explain the process, if necessary.
Speaking of explanations and speaking about things, our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers.
The Goal
Our Hero wants to bring any modern firearm - a pistol, an automatic rifle, a shotgun, etc. - as well as a reasonable amount of appropriate ammo - with him into the past. Our Hero wagers that he would have the biggest chance of success of dominating the world if he would travel in time further back. As such, our Hero wants to pick a gun that even a rather old - by whatever comparison - civilization could reproduce in a good enough quality.
One can assume that the Hero is patient, so if the good people of that time require a year or two to understand the firearms, that is acceptable too, as long as it results in them being able to make the firearm afterwards.
The required time is also not very important. Equipping an army takes time, and our hero knows that. So if arming an entire army with firearms takes several months or even years, so be it.
We can further assume that our Hero brings enough Gold with him - a currency that is universally accepted anywhere - should the need to pay someone arise.
The Task
- Which firearm should our Hero bring with him, and why?
- How far back in time could he go, before even the simplest modern firearm would be so technologically outlandish, that not even the most skilled scientists and engineers of the time would be able to reproduce it?
science-based time-travel firearms
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show 3 more comments
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Eureka! Our hero just discovered the secret of time travel, but what to do with it? "I know!", he says. "I will travel back in time as far as I can and hand them a modern firearm. They will learn how it works, and they will be technologically superior and dominate the world with me as their leader!"
At least, that's the idea.
The Time Machine
The Time Machine is a rough prototype, so it is best not to travel back and forth too often. In fact, once jumped back in time enough, it's possible that you can't ever jump back forward. As a result, the hero cannot just continuously jump back and forth in time to transport a lot of modern equipment. He has one chance, and one chance only.
Furthermore, the Time Machine is able to travel through time and, contrary to the name, space. The Time Machine can pick any past date, time and location, and the Time Machine would bring the hero there. It is not perfectly accurate though, so you might end a year sooner or later, or somewhere within a kilometer of the target.
The Hero
Our Hero is a scientist, but not a brilliant engineer. While he does have rudimentary knowledge of firearms, he cannot perfectly describe what every single component of the gun does, nor how it is produced. He might be able to explain that a striker works by using a spring to propel a metal stick against the primer, which explodes, in turn ignites the powder and thus propels the bullet forward.
He is also not a chemist. He doesn't know how modern smokeless powder is made, but he did look up how old black powder was made and he is reasonably certain he could explain the process, if necessary.
Speaking of explanations and speaking about things, our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers.
The Goal
Our Hero wants to bring any modern firearm - a pistol, an automatic rifle, a shotgun, etc. - as well as a reasonable amount of appropriate ammo - with him into the past. Our Hero wagers that he would have the biggest chance of success of dominating the world if he would travel in time further back. As such, our Hero wants to pick a gun that even a rather old - by whatever comparison - civilization could reproduce in a good enough quality.
One can assume that the Hero is patient, so if the good people of that time require a year or two to understand the firearms, that is acceptable too, as long as it results in them being able to make the firearm afterwards.
The required time is also not very important. Equipping an army takes time, and our hero knows that. So if arming an entire army with firearms takes several months or even years, so be it.
We can further assume that our Hero brings enough Gold with him - a currency that is universally accepted anywhere - should the need to pay someone arise.
The Task
- Which firearm should our Hero bring with him, and why?
- How far back in time could he go, before even the simplest modern firearm would be so technologically outlandish, that not even the most skilled scientists and engineers of the time would be able to reproduce it?
science-based time-travel firearms
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Depends on what "reproducible" means. How many firearms do you want to make, and most especially how many cartridges? And at what cost? A skilled jeweller could probably reproduce a brass cartridge at any time after the 4th century BCE, but the productivity would be abysmal. And, by the way, does your hero know how to make steel at least on a semi-industrial scale?
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– AlexP
10 hours ago
2
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"our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers." Funnily enough, I'm not sure he could even explain the terms because they may simply not exist at the time. Look how Inuits have something like eight different words for snow. Languages tailor to our everyday needs. "Deflagrate", "explode" may not be of much use to a 8th century farmer, not even talking about the more technical terms.
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– Nyakouai
9 hours ago
1
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Is a slingshot a fire arm?
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– tuskiomi
9 hours ago
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@Nyakouai Clearly we can teach the difference between "deflagrate" and "explode" through survival of the fittest. Oh wait... is that not heroic talk? Man, this hero stuff is tough!
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– Cort Ammon
9 hours ago
2
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There are many technologies other than weapons with which he could conquer the world. The first sextant; plans for an ocean-worthy wooden sailboat, punch-card weaving loom,... economics will trump a few weapons.
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– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
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show 3 more comments
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Eureka! Our hero just discovered the secret of time travel, but what to do with it? "I know!", he says. "I will travel back in time as far as I can and hand them a modern firearm. They will learn how it works, and they will be technologically superior and dominate the world with me as their leader!"
At least, that's the idea.
The Time Machine
The Time Machine is a rough prototype, so it is best not to travel back and forth too often. In fact, once jumped back in time enough, it's possible that you can't ever jump back forward. As a result, the hero cannot just continuously jump back and forth in time to transport a lot of modern equipment. He has one chance, and one chance only.
Furthermore, the Time Machine is able to travel through time and, contrary to the name, space. The Time Machine can pick any past date, time and location, and the Time Machine would bring the hero there. It is not perfectly accurate though, so you might end a year sooner or later, or somewhere within a kilometer of the target.
The Hero
Our Hero is a scientist, but not a brilliant engineer. While he does have rudimentary knowledge of firearms, he cannot perfectly describe what every single component of the gun does, nor how it is produced. He might be able to explain that a striker works by using a spring to propel a metal stick against the primer, which explodes, in turn ignites the powder and thus propels the bullet forward.
He is also not a chemist. He doesn't know how modern smokeless powder is made, but he did look up how old black powder was made and he is reasonably certain he could explain the process, if necessary.
Speaking of explanations and speaking about things, our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers.
The Goal
Our Hero wants to bring any modern firearm - a pistol, an automatic rifle, a shotgun, etc. - as well as a reasonable amount of appropriate ammo - with him into the past. Our Hero wagers that he would have the biggest chance of success of dominating the world if he would travel in time further back. As such, our Hero wants to pick a gun that even a rather old - by whatever comparison - civilization could reproduce in a good enough quality.
One can assume that the Hero is patient, so if the good people of that time require a year or two to understand the firearms, that is acceptable too, as long as it results in them being able to make the firearm afterwards.
The required time is also not very important. Equipping an army takes time, and our hero knows that. So if arming an entire army with firearms takes several months or even years, so be it.
We can further assume that our Hero brings enough Gold with him - a currency that is universally accepted anywhere - should the need to pay someone arise.
The Task
- Which firearm should our Hero bring with him, and why?
- How far back in time could he go, before even the simplest modern firearm would be so technologically outlandish, that not even the most skilled scientists and engineers of the time would be able to reproduce it?
science-based time-travel firearms
$endgroup$
Eureka! Our hero just discovered the secret of time travel, but what to do with it? "I know!", he says. "I will travel back in time as far as I can and hand them a modern firearm. They will learn how it works, and they will be technologically superior and dominate the world with me as their leader!"
At least, that's the idea.
The Time Machine
The Time Machine is a rough prototype, so it is best not to travel back and forth too often. In fact, once jumped back in time enough, it's possible that you can't ever jump back forward. As a result, the hero cannot just continuously jump back and forth in time to transport a lot of modern equipment. He has one chance, and one chance only.
Furthermore, the Time Machine is able to travel through time and, contrary to the name, space. The Time Machine can pick any past date, time and location, and the Time Machine would bring the hero there. It is not perfectly accurate though, so you might end a year sooner or later, or somewhere within a kilometer of the target.
The Hero
Our Hero is a scientist, but not a brilliant engineer. While he does have rudimentary knowledge of firearms, he cannot perfectly describe what every single component of the gun does, nor how it is produced. He might be able to explain that a striker works by using a spring to propel a metal stick against the primer, which explodes, in turn ignites the powder and thus propels the bullet forward.
He is also not a chemist. He doesn't know how modern smokeless powder is made, but he did look up how old black powder was made and he is reasonably certain he could explain the process, if necessary.
Speaking of explanations and speaking about things, our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers.
The Goal
Our Hero wants to bring any modern firearm - a pistol, an automatic rifle, a shotgun, etc. - as well as a reasonable amount of appropriate ammo - with him into the past. Our Hero wagers that he would have the biggest chance of success of dominating the world if he would travel in time further back. As such, our Hero wants to pick a gun that even a rather old - by whatever comparison - civilization could reproduce in a good enough quality.
One can assume that the Hero is patient, so if the good people of that time require a year or two to understand the firearms, that is acceptable too, as long as it results in them being able to make the firearm afterwards.
The required time is also not very important. Equipping an army takes time, and our hero knows that. So if arming an entire army with firearms takes several months or even years, so be it.
We can further assume that our Hero brings enough Gold with him - a currency that is universally accepted anywhere - should the need to pay someone arise.
The Task
- Which firearm should our Hero bring with him, and why?
- How far back in time could he go, before even the simplest modern firearm would be so technologically outlandish, that not even the most skilled scientists and engineers of the time would be able to reproduce it?
science-based time-travel firearms
science-based time-travel firearms
asked 10 hours ago
MechMK1MechMK1
2006 bronze badges
2006 bronze badges
4
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Depends on what "reproducible" means. How many firearms do you want to make, and most especially how many cartridges? And at what cost? A skilled jeweller could probably reproduce a brass cartridge at any time after the 4th century BCE, but the productivity would be abysmal. And, by the way, does your hero know how to make steel at least on a semi-industrial scale?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
10 hours ago
2
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"our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers." Funnily enough, I'm not sure he could even explain the terms because they may simply not exist at the time. Look how Inuits have something like eight different words for snow. Languages tailor to our everyday needs. "Deflagrate", "explode" may not be of much use to a 8th century farmer, not even talking about the more technical terms.
$endgroup$
– Nyakouai
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Is a slingshot a fire arm?
$endgroup$
– tuskiomi
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nyakouai Clearly we can teach the difference between "deflagrate" and "explode" through survival of the fittest. Oh wait... is that not heroic talk? Man, this hero stuff is tough!
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
There are many technologies other than weapons with which he could conquer the world. The first sextant; plans for an ocean-worthy wooden sailboat, punch-card weaving loom,... economics will trump a few weapons.
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
4
$begingroup$
Depends on what "reproducible" means. How many firearms do you want to make, and most especially how many cartridges? And at what cost? A skilled jeweller could probably reproduce a brass cartridge at any time after the 4th century BCE, but the productivity would be abysmal. And, by the way, does your hero know how to make steel at least on a semi-industrial scale?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
10 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
"our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers." Funnily enough, I'm not sure he could even explain the terms because they may simply not exist at the time. Look how Inuits have something like eight different words for snow. Languages tailor to our everyday needs. "Deflagrate", "explode" may not be of much use to a 8th century farmer, not even talking about the more technical terms.
$endgroup$
– Nyakouai
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Is a slingshot a fire arm?
$endgroup$
– tuskiomi
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nyakouai Clearly we can teach the difference between "deflagrate" and "explode" through survival of the fittest. Oh wait... is that not heroic talk? Man, this hero stuff is tough!
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
There are many technologies other than weapons with which he could conquer the world. The first sextant; plans for an ocean-worthy wooden sailboat, punch-card weaving loom,... economics will trump a few weapons.
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
Depends on what "reproducible" means. How many firearms do you want to make, and most especially how many cartridges? And at what cost? A skilled jeweller could probably reproduce a brass cartridge at any time after the 4th century BCE, but the productivity would be abysmal. And, by the way, does your hero know how to make steel at least on a semi-industrial scale?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Depends on what "reproducible" means. How many firearms do you want to make, and most especially how many cartridges? And at what cost? A skilled jeweller could probably reproduce a brass cartridge at any time after the 4th century BCE, but the productivity would be abysmal. And, by the way, does your hero know how to make steel at least on a semi-industrial scale?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
10 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
"our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers." Funnily enough, I'm not sure he could even explain the terms because they may simply not exist at the time. Look how Inuits have something like eight different words for snow. Languages tailor to our everyday needs. "Deflagrate", "explode" may not be of much use to a 8th century farmer, not even talking about the more technical terms.
$endgroup$
– Nyakouai
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
"our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers." Funnily enough, I'm not sure he could even explain the terms because they may simply not exist at the time. Look how Inuits have something like eight different words for snow. Languages tailor to our everyday needs. "Deflagrate", "explode" may not be of much use to a 8th century farmer, not even talking about the more technical terms.
$endgroup$
– Nyakouai
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Is a slingshot a fire arm?
$endgroup$
– tuskiomi
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is a slingshot a fire arm?
$endgroup$
– tuskiomi
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nyakouai Clearly we can teach the difference between "deflagrate" and "explode" through survival of the fittest. Oh wait... is that not heroic talk? Man, this hero stuff is tough!
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nyakouai Clearly we can teach the difference between "deflagrate" and "explode" through survival of the fittest. Oh wait... is that not heroic talk? Man, this hero stuff is tough!
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
There are many technologies other than weapons with which he could conquer the world. The first sextant; plans for an ocean-worthy wooden sailboat, punch-card weaving loom,... economics will trump a few weapons.
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
There are many technologies other than weapons with which he could conquer the world. The first sextant; plans for an ocean-worthy wooden sailboat, punch-card weaving loom,... economics will trump a few weapons.
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
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Unless he's an expert metallurgist the biggest issue you're going to have isn't in terms of producing the parts; anyone with a drill and a hand file (or some rocks that will serve the purpose) and enough patience can make a gun from a solid block of appropriate metal and therein lies the problem. Modern weapons require modern alloys, many of which are proprietary products that the character cannot know the recipe for. Furthermore the fineness of measurement necessary to make them if the recipe is known has only existed for a few decades, some of these alloys require measurements in the parts per million.
All is not lost however, you can take some weapons that are currently antiques back a lot farther than you'd think. Assuming your character knows how to make reliable gunpowder that is. You could take a Culverin back to 3300BC Anatolia and be able to reproduce it in local bronze.
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Bring the Tools, not the Weapons
The hard part here is getting the precision tooling you will need done right. Rifling a barrel and pressing ammunition is pretty darn hard without the right equipment, but all the tools needed to set up a fire-arms and munitions workshop take up surprisingly little space.
Since he has enough wealth in the 21st century to acquire significant amounts of gold and build a time-machine, I'm assuming he's fairly wealthy. Although he lacks mechanical engineering skills himself, he could hire proper engineers to modify hobbyist gun making kits to rely on non-electrical power sources such as foot-pedals, and help him design weapons to the specifications of the alloys that will be available to him in the past.
Before he goes back, he should then run tests making his own home-made bronze, gun powder, ignition caps, etc. to test his ability to make sound weapons from what will be local resources.
Of note, bronze is actually a fairly good material for making firearms. A revolutionary era bronze cannon was half the weight of the cast iron cannons of the time. Steel did not really get good enough to compete with the quality of bronze as a weapon making material until the 1800s, so your time traveler should focus on bronze as his alloy of choice.
The Weapon he Makes
To dominate the ancient world, your weapon needs a few qualities that not all historical firearms could achieve. First, it will need good penetration so it can go through the shields and armor of the ancient world. This rules out shotguns, and low calibre firearms. Secondly, it will need range. To have a true tactical advantage, you will need to be able to shoot down enemy archers, slingers, and crossbowmen before they can start shooting at you. This means you will need riffling. Third, you will need a enough rate of fire that your armies will get in many shots before your enemies can close range enough to take away your advantages. Automatic firing systems might be too complicated to reproduce since you won't be able to produce high quality springs, but revolvers should be able to be produced without them.
Other considerations are that the muzzle velocity will need to be lower than modern firearms due to poor quality of gunpowder and materials, but this can be offset with "oversized" slugs. Also manual bullet press does not need to be big, and can make thousands of rounds of ammo a day; so, you can skip the ramrods and go straight to self contained munitions for ease of reloading. The hard part is going to be blasting caps since they require chemical processes that would be hard to replicate in the ancient world without an extensive knowledge of chemistry... but I'm sure your timetravel inventor could figure it out.
The final weapon will likely be a .45-60 calibre bronze rifle with a revolver chamber, that fires lead slugs.
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Nothing.
No modern firearm or ammunition will pass for an ancient one. Every speck of metal and every chemical trace will make it stand out as not belonging. Worse no one is reproducing modern firearms or ammunition prior to the ~1800's and metal lathes, chemistry, and precision measurement.
Basically if they can make a firearm, they are already making said firearms.
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As a small caveat, it should be possible to make the next incremental advances; normally these are possible, technological. For example, for most of the smooth-bore musket life it was possible to introduce rifling... but you're not advancing to WWI firearms during the 1500s.
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– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
1
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Precision measurement being the major hurdle.
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– Ash
9 hours ago
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@Ash And part tolerance, which is a stranger beast than you might think. There has been two modern efforts to restore WWII B-52 bombers to flight, and both faced the same problem: Milling had become so precise that they were actually too precise, and the parts didn't work in the bombers designed for WWI equipment. They had to rebuild WWII era milling equipment with WWII era slop to build the replacement parts for the bombers.
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– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
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@NexTerren possibly but since the person admittedly does not understand firearms, this is unlikely. The hard part about rifling is making them not the concept.
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– John
9 hours ago
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@NexTerren True part tolerance is only half about precision measurement of individual parts.
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– Ash
9 hours ago
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show 1 more comment
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He should bring back a replica firearm from a historical period as close as possible to the one he's trying to dominate. The precision manufacturing and metallurgy and chemistry of the time will fundamentally limit reproduction, so picking something that could already nearly be made will help tremendously.
Note that he still has his work cut out for him. Despite outward appearances, guns don't always mean you win. It takes training. In particular, training entire militaries is a very time consuming task that may require multiple lifetimes to achieve.
For a cinemagraphic depiction of this, consider the first part of The Last Samaurai. Fighting against trained warriors when you are unfamiliar with the tactics regarding how to use a weapon, nor the strategies which let you leverage it, can go spectacularly wrong.
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If your time traveler is trying to alter history by introducing "modern" firearms long before their time, his best bet would be an external hammer break-action shotgun (single or double), with brass cartridges loaded with black powder. The cartridges should be a mix of birdshot, buckshot, and "pumpkin ball" slug loads. Fixed chokes, no tighter than "improved modified", recommended. That's enough to demonstrate the effect of choke on a shot column (especially if one barrel is cylinder and the other improved modified), but not so tight as to cause trouble with the round ball loads.
If he's got any chemistry knowledge at all, he can make primers that will work, brass was a known and worked metal even in ancient times, and black powder shotguns can be made with pretty primitive steel (or even bronze) for the barrel and lockwork.
With a source of cartridges, a competent smith from 1600 (possibly as far back as 1500) could build a shotgun that could fire modern cartridges. It wouldn't be a nice to fire as a modern one (heavier, for one thing), but it would work. Once they have working firearms, the advancement can begin -- they'll be effectively up to 1860 technology as soon as they can make cartridges and that gun.
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Springfield Model 1861
As long as you go to a place where people have no problem creating iron swords and equipment you should be able to get them to create a (initially probably unrifled) version of this gun that works with a minimum of tools. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB5S1LufNyo).
At first your engineers (let's assume you go to India at 100 BCE and start your conquest from there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_the_Indian_subcontinent#Iron and elephants hate being shot at by guns) will probably turn out something more akin to the Brown Bess rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess. But this is fine! You are taking the Springfield muzzle loader because it was one of the last muzzle loaders in use, so it contains all the useful features that you'd like to eventually be implemented, but even a poor copy will be very functional.
I highly recommend using minié balls as soon as possible for ammunition. These are cheap to produce and very powerful, and will have no problem punching through any shields (think the shields of the Roman empire) or horses (think Parthian horsemen). The rate of fire will be approximately 3 RPM, which means that archers will actually have a rate of fire advantage over you, and might even have an accuracy advantage too while you are still using unrifled muskets. However this brings me to the most important advantage of using muskets over bows:
"No" training required
While you are still using the brown bess version, an individual musketman would probably be at a disadvantage to say, a trained Parthian horse archer. However, training a soldier to use a musket takes weeks, training a soldier to wield a bow takes years, not to mention the costs associated with horses and the logistics required to field them.
Your greatest advantage will therefore be the size of the armies you can field. With massed musket fire, no enemy troops will be able to get close to you. Nonetheless, issuing a detachable bayonet to every troop will be highly recommended since it allows them to hold the line while the second (and optionally third) lines keep up their withering fire.
To sustain such large armies, you'll need to bring 2 additional items:
- A handbook on medicine and hygiene: before the 20th century (and even during it), most casualties in armies were caused by disease. Without hygiene, and proper training of your officers about where to setup camp and how to guarantee a proper water supply, your army might quickly have plenty of guns, but not enough people to use them!
- A book on constructing a field kitchen: The field kitchen allowed armies to cook the meals for soldiers, thereby severely reducing the amount of time spend by soldiers on foraging and cooking their food, and therefore massively increasing how far your army can move in a day. You will need to move quickly to giving other empires the time to copy your firearm design and field their own versions.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A flintlock requires spring steel. You're much better off with a matchlock, which can be built from any metal strong enough to handle the pressure of firing.
$endgroup$
– Mark
41 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'm going to disagree with some of the naysayers and point out that as soon as gunpowder is discovered, they have all the technology they need to make any manual action gun. Revolvers, bolt action, lever action, break action or pump action long guns are all possible.
Some posters have pointed out that pre-modern metallurgy is not up to our standards. I agree. But you don't need it to be. You can simply use thicker chambers, and remember, black powder produces much less pressure than modern smokeless powder.
Some have pointed out that pre-modern machining is nowhere near as good as modern machining. Again, I agree. And again, with manual action guns you don't absolutely need it to be. Semiautomatic or automatic guns need machined precise to the micron because they work together. Every part has to work together precisely or the whole thing won't work. Manual action guns on the other hand have much looser tolerances. Tighter tolerances are still nice, but loose ones are not dealbreakers.
The key is to not just bring back a gun or blueprints for a gun, but also the recipe for fulminated mercury so you can make cartridges.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The problem is volume. Prior to about the mid-1800s, the only people who can make cartridges with the precision needed are jewelers. That rather limits the rate at which you can produce ammunition, and drives up the price.
$endgroup$
– Mark
42 mins ago
add a comment |
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7 Answers
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$begingroup$
Unless he's an expert metallurgist the biggest issue you're going to have isn't in terms of producing the parts; anyone with a drill and a hand file (or some rocks that will serve the purpose) and enough patience can make a gun from a solid block of appropriate metal and therein lies the problem. Modern weapons require modern alloys, many of which are proprietary products that the character cannot know the recipe for. Furthermore the fineness of measurement necessary to make them if the recipe is known has only existed for a few decades, some of these alloys require measurements in the parts per million.
All is not lost however, you can take some weapons that are currently antiques back a lot farther than you'd think. Assuming your character knows how to make reliable gunpowder that is. You could take a Culverin back to 3300BC Anatolia and be able to reproduce it in local bronze.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Unless he's an expert metallurgist the biggest issue you're going to have isn't in terms of producing the parts; anyone with a drill and a hand file (or some rocks that will serve the purpose) and enough patience can make a gun from a solid block of appropriate metal and therein lies the problem. Modern weapons require modern alloys, many of which are proprietary products that the character cannot know the recipe for. Furthermore the fineness of measurement necessary to make them if the recipe is known has only existed for a few decades, some of these alloys require measurements in the parts per million.
All is not lost however, you can take some weapons that are currently antiques back a lot farther than you'd think. Assuming your character knows how to make reliable gunpowder that is. You could take a Culverin back to 3300BC Anatolia and be able to reproduce it in local bronze.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Unless he's an expert metallurgist the biggest issue you're going to have isn't in terms of producing the parts; anyone with a drill and a hand file (or some rocks that will serve the purpose) and enough patience can make a gun from a solid block of appropriate metal and therein lies the problem. Modern weapons require modern alloys, many of which are proprietary products that the character cannot know the recipe for. Furthermore the fineness of measurement necessary to make them if the recipe is known has only existed for a few decades, some of these alloys require measurements in the parts per million.
All is not lost however, you can take some weapons that are currently antiques back a lot farther than you'd think. Assuming your character knows how to make reliable gunpowder that is. You could take a Culverin back to 3300BC Anatolia and be able to reproduce it in local bronze.
$endgroup$
Unless he's an expert metallurgist the biggest issue you're going to have isn't in terms of producing the parts; anyone with a drill and a hand file (or some rocks that will serve the purpose) and enough patience can make a gun from a solid block of appropriate metal and therein lies the problem. Modern weapons require modern alloys, many of which are proprietary products that the character cannot know the recipe for. Furthermore the fineness of measurement necessary to make them if the recipe is known has only existed for a few decades, some of these alloys require measurements in the parts per million.
All is not lost however, you can take some weapons that are currently antiques back a lot farther than you'd think. Assuming your character knows how to make reliable gunpowder that is. You could take a Culverin back to 3300BC Anatolia and be able to reproduce it in local bronze.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
AshAsh
31.9k4 gold badges75 silver badges173 bronze badges
31.9k4 gold badges75 silver badges173 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Bring the Tools, not the Weapons
The hard part here is getting the precision tooling you will need done right. Rifling a barrel and pressing ammunition is pretty darn hard without the right equipment, but all the tools needed to set up a fire-arms and munitions workshop take up surprisingly little space.
Since he has enough wealth in the 21st century to acquire significant amounts of gold and build a time-machine, I'm assuming he's fairly wealthy. Although he lacks mechanical engineering skills himself, he could hire proper engineers to modify hobbyist gun making kits to rely on non-electrical power sources such as foot-pedals, and help him design weapons to the specifications of the alloys that will be available to him in the past.
Before he goes back, he should then run tests making his own home-made bronze, gun powder, ignition caps, etc. to test his ability to make sound weapons from what will be local resources.
Of note, bronze is actually a fairly good material for making firearms. A revolutionary era bronze cannon was half the weight of the cast iron cannons of the time. Steel did not really get good enough to compete with the quality of bronze as a weapon making material until the 1800s, so your time traveler should focus on bronze as his alloy of choice.
The Weapon he Makes
To dominate the ancient world, your weapon needs a few qualities that not all historical firearms could achieve. First, it will need good penetration so it can go through the shields and armor of the ancient world. This rules out shotguns, and low calibre firearms. Secondly, it will need range. To have a true tactical advantage, you will need to be able to shoot down enemy archers, slingers, and crossbowmen before they can start shooting at you. This means you will need riffling. Third, you will need a enough rate of fire that your armies will get in many shots before your enemies can close range enough to take away your advantages. Automatic firing systems might be too complicated to reproduce since you won't be able to produce high quality springs, but revolvers should be able to be produced without them.
Other considerations are that the muzzle velocity will need to be lower than modern firearms due to poor quality of gunpowder and materials, but this can be offset with "oversized" slugs. Also manual bullet press does not need to be big, and can make thousands of rounds of ammo a day; so, you can skip the ramrods and go straight to self contained munitions for ease of reloading. The hard part is going to be blasting caps since they require chemical processes that would be hard to replicate in the ancient world without an extensive knowledge of chemistry... but I'm sure your timetravel inventor could figure it out.
The final weapon will likely be a .45-60 calibre bronze rifle with a revolver chamber, that fires lead slugs.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Bring the Tools, not the Weapons
The hard part here is getting the precision tooling you will need done right. Rifling a barrel and pressing ammunition is pretty darn hard without the right equipment, but all the tools needed to set up a fire-arms and munitions workshop take up surprisingly little space.
Since he has enough wealth in the 21st century to acquire significant amounts of gold and build a time-machine, I'm assuming he's fairly wealthy. Although he lacks mechanical engineering skills himself, he could hire proper engineers to modify hobbyist gun making kits to rely on non-electrical power sources such as foot-pedals, and help him design weapons to the specifications of the alloys that will be available to him in the past.
Before he goes back, he should then run tests making his own home-made bronze, gun powder, ignition caps, etc. to test his ability to make sound weapons from what will be local resources.
Of note, bronze is actually a fairly good material for making firearms. A revolutionary era bronze cannon was half the weight of the cast iron cannons of the time. Steel did not really get good enough to compete with the quality of bronze as a weapon making material until the 1800s, so your time traveler should focus on bronze as his alloy of choice.
The Weapon he Makes
To dominate the ancient world, your weapon needs a few qualities that not all historical firearms could achieve. First, it will need good penetration so it can go through the shields and armor of the ancient world. This rules out shotguns, and low calibre firearms. Secondly, it will need range. To have a true tactical advantage, you will need to be able to shoot down enemy archers, slingers, and crossbowmen before they can start shooting at you. This means you will need riffling. Third, you will need a enough rate of fire that your armies will get in many shots before your enemies can close range enough to take away your advantages. Automatic firing systems might be too complicated to reproduce since you won't be able to produce high quality springs, but revolvers should be able to be produced without them.
Other considerations are that the muzzle velocity will need to be lower than modern firearms due to poor quality of gunpowder and materials, but this can be offset with "oversized" slugs. Also manual bullet press does not need to be big, and can make thousands of rounds of ammo a day; so, you can skip the ramrods and go straight to self contained munitions for ease of reloading. The hard part is going to be blasting caps since they require chemical processes that would be hard to replicate in the ancient world without an extensive knowledge of chemistry... but I'm sure your timetravel inventor could figure it out.
The final weapon will likely be a .45-60 calibre bronze rifle with a revolver chamber, that fires lead slugs.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Bring the Tools, not the Weapons
The hard part here is getting the precision tooling you will need done right. Rifling a barrel and pressing ammunition is pretty darn hard without the right equipment, but all the tools needed to set up a fire-arms and munitions workshop take up surprisingly little space.
Since he has enough wealth in the 21st century to acquire significant amounts of gold and build a time-machine, I'm assuming he's fairly wealthy. Although he lacks mechanical engineering skills himself, he could hire proper engineers to modify hobbyist gun making kits to rely on non-electrical power sources such as foot-pedals, and help him design weapons to the specifications of the alloys that will be available to him in the past.
Before he goes back, he should then run tests making his own home-made bronze, gun powder, ignition caps, etc. to test his ability to make sound weapons from what will be local resources.
Of note, bronze is actually a fairly good material for making firearms. A revolutionary era bronze cannon was half the weight of the cast iron cannons of the time. Steel did not really get good enough to compete with the quality of bronze as a weapon making material until the 1800s, so your time traveler should focus on bronze as his alloy of choice.
The Weapon he Makes
To dominate the ancient world, your weapon needs a few qualities that not all historical firearms could achieve. First, it will need good penetration so it can go through the shields and armor of the ancient world. This rules out shotguns, and low calibre firearms. Secondly, it will need range. To have a true tactical advantage, you will need to be able to shoot down enemy archers, slingers, and crossbowmen before they can start shooting at you. This means you will need riffling. Third, you will need a enough rate of fire that your armies will get in many shots before your enemies can close range enough to take away your advantages. Automatic firing systems might be too complicated to reproduce since you won't be able to produce high quality springs, but revolvers should be able to be produced without them.
Other considerations are that the muzzle velocity will need to be lower than modern firearms due to poor quality of gunpowder and materials, but this can be offset with "oversized" slugs. Also manual bullet press does not need to be big, and can make thousands of rounds of ammo a day; so, you can skip the ramrods and go straight to self contained munitions for ease of reloading. The hard part is going to be blasting caps since they require chemical processes that would be hard to replicate in the ancient world without an extensive knowledge of chemistry... but I'm sure your timetravel inventor could figure it out.
The final weapon will likely be a .45-60 calibre bronze rifle with a revolver chamber, that fires lead slugs.
$endgroup$
Bring the Tools, not the Weapons
The hard part here is getting the precision tooling you will need done right. Rifling a barrel and pressing ammunition is pretty darn hard without the right equipment, but all the tools needed to set up a fire-arms and munitions workshop take up surprisingly little space.
Since he has enough wealth in the 21st century to acquire significant amounts of gold and build a time-machine, I'm assuming he's fairly wealthy. Although he lacks mechanical engineering skills himself, he could hire proper engineers to modify hobbyist gun making kits to rely on non-electrical power sources such as foot-pedals, and help him design weapons to the specifications of the alloys that will be available to him in the past.
Before he goes back, he should then run tests making his own home-made bronze, gun powder, ignition caps, etc. to test his ability to make sound weapons from what will be local resources.
Of note, bronze is actually a fairly good material for making firearms. A revolutionary era bronze cannon was half the weight of the cast iron cannons of the time. Steel did not really get good enough to compete with the quality of bronze as a weapon making material until the 1800s, so your time traveler should focus on bronze as his alloy of choice.
The Weapon he Makes
To dominate the ancient world, your weapon needs a few qualities that not all historical firearms could achieve. First, it will need good penetration so it can go through the shields and armor of the ancient world. This rules out shotguns, and low calibre firearms. Secondly, it will need range. To have a true tactical advantage, you will need to be able to shoot down enemy archers, slingers, and crossbowmen before they can start shooting at you. This means you will need riffling. Third, you will need a enough rate of fire that your armies will get in many shots before your enemies can close range enough to take away your advantages. Automatic firing systems might be too complicated to reproduce since you won't be able to produce high quality springs, but revolvers should be able to be produced without them.
Other considerations are that the muzzle velocity will need to be lower than modern firearms due to poor quality of gunpowder and materials, but this can be offset with "oversized" slugs. Also manual bullet press does not need to be big, and can make thousands of rounds of ammo a day; so, you can skip the ramrods and go straight to self contained munitions for ease of reloading. The hard part is going to be blasting caps since they require chemical processes that would be hard to replicate in the ancient world without an extensive knowledge of chemistry... but I'm sure your timetravel inventor could figure it out.
The final weapon will likely be a .45-60 calibre bronze rifle with a revolver chamber, that fires lead slugs.
answered 6 hours ago
NosajimikiNosajimiki
7,5751 gold badge9 silver badges42 bronze badges
7,5751 gold badge9 silver badges42 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Nothing.
No modern firearm or ammunition will pass for an ancient one. Every speck of metal and every chemical trace will make it stand out as not belonging. Worse no one is reproducing modern firearms or ammunition prior to the ~1800's and metal lathes, chemistry, and precision measurement.
Basically if they can make a firearm, they are already making said firearms.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
As a small caveat, it should be possible to make the next incremental advances; normally these are possible, technological. For example, for most of the smooth-bore musket life it was possible to introduce rifling... but you're not advancing to WWI firearms during the 1500s.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Precision measurement being the major hurdle.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ash And part tolerance, which is a stranger beast than you might think. There has been two modern efforts to restore WWII B-52 bombers to flight, and both faced the same problem: Milling had become so precise that they were actually too precise, and the parts didn't work in the bombers designed for WWI equipment. They had to rebuild WWII era milling equipment with WWII era slop to build the replacement parts for the bombers.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren possibly but since the person admittedly does not understand firearms, this is unlikely. The hard part about rifling is making them not the concept.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren True part tolerance is only half about precision measurement of individual parts.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Nothing.
No modern firearm or ammunition will pass for an ancient one. Every speck of metal and every chemical trace will make it stand out as not belonging. Worse no one is reproducing modern firearms or ammunition prior to the ~1800's and metal lathes, chemistry, and precision measurement.
Basically if they can make a firearm, they are already making said firearms.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
As a small caveat, it should be possible to make the next incremental advances; normally these are possible, technological. For example, for most of the smooth-bore musket life it was possible to introduce rifling... but you're not advancing to WWI firearms during the 1500s.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Precision measurement being the major hurdle.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ash And part tolerance, which is a stranger beast than you might think. There has been two modern efforts to restore WWII B-52 bombers to flight, and both faced the same problem: Milling had become so precise that they were actually too precise, and the parts didn't work in the bombers designed for WWI equipment. They had to rebuild WWII era milling equipment with WWII era slop to build the replacement parts for the bombers.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren possibly but since the person admittedly does not understand firearms, this is unlikely. The hard part about rifling is making them not the concept.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren True part tolerance is only half about precision measurement of individual parts.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Nothing.
No modern firearm or ammunition will pass for an ancient one. Every speck of metal and every chemical trace will make it stand out as not belonging. Worse no one is reproducing modern firearms or ammunition prior to the ~1800's and metal lathes, chemistry, and precision measurement.
Basically if they can make a firearm, they are already making said firearms.
$endgroup$
Nothing.
No modern firearm or ammunition will pass for an ancient one. Every speck of metal and every chemical trace will make it stand out as not belonging. Worse no one is reproducing modern firearms or ammunition prior to the ~1800's and metal lathes, chemistry, and precision measurement.
Basically if they can make a firearm, they are already making said firearms.
edited 9 hours ago
Ash
31.9k4 gold badges75 silver badges173 bronze badges
31.9k4 gold badges75 silver badges173 bronze badges
answered 9 hours ago
JohnJohn
39.5k10 gold badges55 silver badges134 bronze badges
39.5k10 gold badges55 silver badges134 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
As a small caveat, it should be possible to make the next incremental advances; normally these are possible, technological. For example, for most of the smooth-bore musket life it was possible to introduce rifling... but you're not advancing to WWI firearms during the 1500s.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Precision measurement being the major hurdle.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ash And part tolerance, which is a stranger beast than you might think. There has been two modern efforts to restore WWII B-52 bombers to flight, and both faced the same problem: Milling had become so precise that they were actually too precise, and the parts didn't work in the bombers designed for WWI equipment. They had to rebuild WWII era milling equipment with WWII era slop to build the replacement parts for the bombers.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren possibly but since the person admittedly does not understand firearms, this is unlikely. The hard part about rifling is making them not the concept.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren True part tolerance is only half about precision measurement of individual parts.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
2
$begingroup$
As a small caveat, it should be possible to make the next incremental advances; normally these are possible, technological. For example, for most of the smooth-bore musket life it was possible to introduce rifling... but you're not advancing to WWI firearms during the 1500s.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Precision measurement being the major hurdle.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ash And part tolerance, which is a stranger beast than you might think. There has been two modern efforts to restore WWII B-52 bombers to flight, and both faced the same problem: Milling had become so precise that they were actually too precise, and the parts didn't work in the bombers designed for WWI equipment. They had to rebuild WWII era milling equipment with WWII era slop to build the replacement parts for the bombers.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren possibly but since the person admittedly does not understand firearms, this is unlikely. The hard part about rifling is making them not the concept.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren True part tolerance is only half about precision measurement of individual parts.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
As a small caveat, it should be possible to make the next incremental advances; normally these are possible, technological. For example, for most of the smooth-bore musket life it was possible to introduce rifling... but you're not advancing to WWI firearms during the 1500s.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
As a small caveat, it should be possible to make the next incremental advances; normally these are possible, technological. For example, for most of the smooth-bore musket life it was possible to introduce rifling... but you're not advancing to WWI firearms during the 1500s.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Precision measurement being the major hurdle.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Precision measurement being the major hurdle.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ash And part tolerance, which is a stranger beast than you might think. There has been two modern efforts to restore WWII B-52 bombers to flight, and both faced the same problem: Milling had become so precise that they were actually too precise, and the parts didn't work in the bombers designed for WWI equipment. They had to rebuild WWII era milling equipment with WWII era slop to build the replacement parts for the bombers.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ash And part tolerance, which is a stranger beast than you might think. There has been two modern efforts to restore WWII B-52 bombers to flight, and both faced the same problem: Milling had become so precise that they were actually too precise, and the parts didn't work in the bombers designed for WWI equipment. They had to rebuild WWII era milling equipment with WWII era slop to build the replacement parts for the bombers.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren possibly but since the person admittedly does not understand firearms, this is unlikely. The hard part about rifling is making them not the concept.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren possibly but since the person admittedly does not understand firearms, this is unlikely. The hard part about rifling is making them not the concept.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren True part tolerance is only half about precision measurement of individual parts.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NexTerren True part tolerance is only half about precision measurement of individual parts.
$endgroup$
– Ash
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
He should bring back a replica firearm from a historical period as close as possible to the one he's trying to dominate. The precision manufacturing and metallurgy and chemistry of the time will fundamentally limit reproduction, so picking something that could already nearly be made will help tremendously.
Note that he still has his work cut out for him. Despite outward appearances, guns don't always mean you win. It takes training. In particular, training entire militaries is a very time consuming task that may require multiple lifetimes to achieve.
For a cinemagraphic depiction of this, consider the first part of The Last Samaurai. Fighting against trained warriors when you are unfamiliar with the tactics regarding how to use a weapon, nor the strategies which let you leverage it, can go spectacularly wrong.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
He should bring back a replica firearm from a historical period as close as possible to the one he's trying to dominate. The precision manufacturing and metallurgy and chemistry of the time will fundamentally limit reproduction, so picking something that could already nearly be made will help tremendously.
Note that he still has his work cut out for him. Despite outward appearances, guns don't always mean you win. It takes training. In particular, training entire militaries is a very time consuming task that may require multiple lifetimes to achieve.
For a cinemagraphic depiction of this, consider the first part of The Last Samaurai. Fighting against trained warriors when you are unfamiliar with the tactics regarding how to use a weapon, nor the strategies which let you leverage it, can go spectacularly wrong.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
He should bring back a replica firearm from a historical period as close as possible to the one he's trying to dominate. The precision manufacturing and metallurgy and chemistry of the time will fundamentally limit reproduction, so picking something that could already nearly be made will help tremendously.
Note that he still has his work cut out for him. Despite outward appearances, guns don't always mean you win. It takes training. In particular, training entire militaries is a very time consuming task that may require multiple lifetimes to achieve.
For a cinemagraphic depiction of this, consider the first part of The Last Samaurai. Fighting against trained warriors when you are unfamiliar with the tactics regarding how to use a weapon, nor the strategies which let you leverage it, can go spectacularly wrong.
$endgroup$
He should bring back a replica firearm from a historical period as close as possible to the one he's trying to dominate. The precision manufacturing and metallurgy and chemistry of the time will fundamentally limit reproduction, so picking something that could already nearly be made will help tremendously.
Note that he still has his work cut out for him. Despite outward appearances, guns don't always mean you win. It takes training. In particular, training entire militaries is a very time consuming task that may require multiple lifetimes to achieve.
For a cinemagraphic depiction of this, consider the first part of The Last Samaurai. Fighting against trained warriors when you are unfamiliar with the tactics regarding how to use a weapon, nor the strategies which let you leverage it, can go spectacularly wrong.
answered 9 hours ago
Cort AmmonCort Ammon
114k18 gold badges204 silver badges398 bronze badges
114k18 gold badges204 silver badges398 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If your time traveler is trying to alter history by introducing "modern" firearms long before their time, his best bet would be an external hammer break-action shotgun (single or double), with brass cartridges loaded with black powder. The cartridges should be a mix of birdshot, buckshot, and "pumpkin ball" slug loads. Fixed chokes, no tighter than "improved modified", recommended. That's enough to demonstrate the effect of choke on a shot column (especially if one barrel is cylinder and the other improved modified), but not so tight as to cause trouble with the round ball loads.
If he's got any chemistry knowledge at all, he can make primers that will work, brass was a known and worked metal even in ancient times, and black powder shotguns can be made with pretty primitive steel (or even bronze) for the barrel and lockwork.
With a source of cartridges, a competent smith from 1600 (possibly as far back as 1500) could build a shotgun that could fire modern cartridges. It wouldn't be a nice to fire as a modern one (heavier, for one thing), but it would work. Once they have working firearms, the advancement can begin -- they'll be effectively up to 1860 technology as soon as they can make cartridges and that gun.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If your time traveler is trying to alter history by introducing "modern" firearms long before their time, his best bet would be an external hammer break-action shotgun (single or double), with brass cartridges loaded with black powder. The cartridges should be a mix of birdshot, buckshot, and "pumpkin ball" slug loads. Fixed chokes, no tighter than "improved modified", recommended. That's enough to demonstrate the effect of choke on a shot column (especially if one barrel is cylinder and the other improved modified), but not so tight as to cause trouble with the round ball loads.
If he's got any chemistry knowledge at all, he can make primers that will work, brass was a known and worked metal even in ancient times, and black powder shotguns can be made with pretty primitive steel (or even bronze) for the barrel and lockwork.
With a source of cartridges, a competent smith from 1600 (possibly as far back as 1500) could build a shotgun that could fire modern cartridges. It wouldn't be a nice to fire as a modern one (heavier, for one thing), but it would work. Once they have working firearms, the advancement can begin -- they'll be effectively up to 1860 technology as soon as they can make cartridges and that gun.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If your time traveler is trying to alter history by introducing "modern" firearms long before their time, his best bet would be an external hammer break-action shotgun (single or double), with brass cartridges loaded with black powder. The cartridges should be a mix of birdshot, buckshot, and "pumpkin ball" slug loads. Fixed chokes, no tighter than "improved modified", recommended. That's enough to demonstrate the effect of choke on a shot column (especially if one barrel is cylinder and the other improved modified), but not so tight as to cause trouble with the round ball loads.
If he's got any chemistry knowledge at all, he can make primers that will work, brass was a known and worked metal even in ancient times, and black powder shotguns can be made with pretty primitive steel (or even bronze) for the barrel and lockwork.
With a source of cartridges, a competent smith from 1600 (possibly as far back as 1500) could build a shotgun that could fire modern cartridges. It wouldn't be a nice to fire as a modern one (heavier, for one thing), but it would work. Once they have working firearms, the advancement can begin -- they'll be effectively up to 1860 technology as soon as they can make cartridges and that gun.
$endgroup$
If your time traveler is trying to alter history by introducing "modern" firearms long before their time, his best bet would be an external hammer break-action shotgun (single or double), with brass cartridges loaded with black powder. The cartridges should be a mix of birdshot, buckshot, and "pumpkin ball" slug loads. Fixed chokes, no tighter than "improved modified", recommended. That's enough to demonstrate the effect of choke on a shot column (especially if one barrel is cylinder and the other improved modified), but not so tight as to cause trouble with the round ball loads.
If he's got any chemistry knowledge at all, he can make primers that will work, brass was a known and worked metal even in ancient times, and black powder shotguns can be made with pretty primitive steel (or even bronze) for the barrel and lockwork.
With a source of cartridges, a competent smith from 1600 (possibly as far back as 1500) could build a shotgun that could fire modern cartridges. It wouldn't be a nice to fire as a modern one (heavier, for one thing), but it would work. Once they have working firearms, the advancement can begin -- they'll be effectively up to 1860 technology as soon as they can make cartridges and that gun.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
7,54413 silver badges35 bronze badges
7,54413 silver badges35 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Springfield Model 1861
As long as you go to a place where people have no problem creating iron swords and equipment you should be able to get them to create a (initially probably unrifled) version of this gun that works with a minimum of tools. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB5S1LufNyo).
At first your engineers (let's assume you go to India at 100 BCE and start your conquest from there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_the_Indian_subcontinent#Iron and elephants hate being shot at by guns) will probably turn out something more akin to the Brown Bess rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess. But this is fine! You are taking the Springfield muzzle loader because it was one of the last muzzle loaders in use, so it contains all the useful features that you'd like to eventually be implemented, but even a poor copy will be very functional.
I highly recommend using minié balls as soon as possible for ammunition. These are cheap to produce and very powerful, and will have no problem punching through any shields (think the shields of the Roman empire) or horses (think Parthian horsemen). The rate of fire will be approximately 3 RPM, which means that archers will actually have a rate of fire advantage over you, and might even have an accuracy advantage too while you are still using unrifled muskets. However this brings me to the most important advantage of using muskets over bows:
"No" training required
While you are still using the brown bess version, an individual musketman would probably be at a disadvantage to say, a trained Parthian horse archer. However, training a soldier to use a musket takes weeks, training a soldier to wield a bow takes years, not to mention the costs associated with horses and the logistics required to field them.
Your greatest advantage will therefore be the size of the armies you can field. With massed musket fire, no enemy troops will be able to get close to you. Nonetheless, issuing a detachable bayonet to every troop will be highly recommended since it allows them to hold the line while the second (and optionally third) lines keep up their withering fire.
To sustain such large armies, you'll need to bring 2 additional items:
- A handbook on medicine and hygiene: before the 20th century (and even during it), most casualties in armies were caused by disease. Without hygiene, and proper training of your officers about where to setup camp and how to guarantee a proper water supply, your army might quickly have plenty of guns, but not enough people to use them!
- A book on constructing a field kitchen: The field kitchen allowed armies to cook the meals for soldiers, thereby severely reducing the amount of time spend by soldiers on foraging and cooking their food, and therefore massively increasing how far your army can move in a day. You will need to move quickly to giving other empires the time to copy your firearm design and field their own versions.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A flintlock requires spring steel. You're much better off with a matchlock, which can be built from any metal strong enough to handle the pressure of firing.
$endgroup$
– Mark
41 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Springfield Model 1861
As long as you go to a place where people have no problem creating iron swords and equipment you should be able to get them to create a (initially probably unrifled) version of this gun that works with a minimum of tools. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB5S1LufNyo).
At first your engineers (let's assume you go to India at 100 BCE and start your conquest from there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_the_Indian_subcontinent#Iron and elephants hate being shot at by guns) will probably turn out something more akin to the Brown Bess rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess. But this is fine! You are taking the Springfield muzzle loader because it was one of the last muzzle loaders in use, so it contains all the useful features that you'd like to eventually be implemented, but even a poor copy will be very functional.
I highly recommend using minié balls as soon as possible for ammunition. These are cheap to produce and very powerful, and will have no problem punching through any shields (think the shields of the Roman empire) or horses (think Parthian horsemen). The rate of fire will be approximately 3 RPM, which means that archers will actually have a rate of fire advantage over you, and might even have an accuracy advantage too while you are still using unrifled muskets. However this brings me to the most important advantage of using muskets over bows:
"No" training required
While you are still using the brown bess version, an individual musketman would probably be at a disadvantage to say, a trained Parthian horse archer. However, training a soldier to use a musket takes weeks, training a soldier to wield a bow takes years, not to mention the costs associated with horses and the logistics required to field them.
Your greatest advantage will therefore be the size of the armies you can field. With massed musket fire, no enemy troops will be able to get close to you. Nonetheless, issuing a detachable bayonet to every troop will be highly recommended since it allows them to hold the line while the second (and optionally third) lines keep up their withering fire.
To sustain such large armies, you'll need to bring 2 additional items:
- A handbook on medicine and hygiene: before the 20th century (and even during it), most casualties in armies were caused by disease. Without hygiene, and proper training of your officers about where to setup camp and how to guarantee a proper water supply, your army might quickly have plenty of guns, but not enough people to use them!
- A book on constructing a field kitchen: The field kitchen allowed armies to cook the meals for soldiers, thereby severely reducing the amount of time spend by soldiers on foraging and cooking their food, and therefore massively increasing how far your army can move in a day. You will need to move quickly to giving other empires the time to copy your firearm design and field their own versions.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A flintlock requires spring steel. You're much better off with a matchlock, which can be built from any metal strong enough to handle the pressure of firing.
$endgroup$
– Mark
41 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Springfield Model 1861
As long as you go to a place where people have no problem creating iron swords and equipment you should be able to get them to create a (initially probably unrifled) version of this gun that works with a minimum of tools. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB5S1LufNyo).
At first your engineers (let's assume you go to India at 100 BCE and start your conquest from there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_the_Indian_subcontinent#Iron and elephants hate being shot at by guns) will probably turn out something more akin to the Brown Bess rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess. But this is fine! You are taking the Springfield muzzle loader because it was one of the last muzzle loaders in use, so it contains all the useful features that you'd like to eventually be implemented, but even a poor copy will be very functional.
I highly recommend using minié balls as soon as possible for ammunition. These are cheap to produce and very powerful, and will have no problem punching through any shields (think the shields of the Roman empire) or horses (think Parthian horsemen). The rate of fire will be approximately 3 RPM, which means that archers will actually have a rate of fire advantage over you, and might even have an accuracy advantage too while you are still using unrifled muskets. However this brings me to the most important advantage of using muskets over bows:
"No" training required
While you are still using the brown bess version, an individual musketman would probably be at a disadvantage to say, a trained Parthian horse archer. However, training a soldier to use a musket takes weeks, training a soldier to wield a bow takes years, not to mention the costs associated with horses and the logistics required to field them.
Your greatest advantage will therefore be the size of the armies you can field. With massed musket fire, no enemy troops will be able to get close to you. Nonetheless, issuing a detachable bayonet to every troop will be highly recommended since it allows them to hold the line while the second (and optionally third) lines keep up their withering fire.
To sustain such large armies, you'll need to bring 2 additional items:
- A handbook on medicine and hygiene: before the 20th century (and even during it), most casualties in armies were caused by disease. Without hygiene, and proper training of your officers about where to setup camp and how to guarantee a proper water supply, your army might quickly have plenty of guns, but not enough people to use them!
- A book on constructing a field kitchen: The field kitchen allowed armies to cook the meals for soldiers, thereby severely reducing the amount of time spend by soldiers on foraging and cooking their food, and therefore massively increasing how far your army can move in a day. You will need to move quickly to giving other empires the time to copy your firearm design and field their own versions.
$endgroup$
Springfield Model 1861
As long as you go to a place where people have no problem creating iron swords and equipment you should be able to get them to create a (initially probably unrifled) version of this gun that works with a minimum of tools. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB5S1LufNyo).
At first your engineers (let's assume you go to India at 100 BCE and start your conquest from there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_the_Indian_subcontinent#Iron and elephants hate being shot at by guns) will probably turn out something more akin to the Brown Bess rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess. But this is fine! You are taking the Springfield muzzle loader because it was one of the last muzzle loaders in use, so it contains all the useful features that you'd like to eventually be implemented, but even a poor copy will be very functional.
I highly recommend using minié balls as soon as possible for ammunition. These are cheap to produce and very powerful, and will have no problem punching through any shields (think the shields of the Roman empire) or horses (think Parthian horsemen). The rate of fire will be approximately 3 RPM, which means that archers will actually have a rate of fire advantage over you, and might even have an accuracy advantage too while you are still using unrifled muskets. However this brings me to the most important advantage of using muskets over bows:
"No" training required
While you are still using the brown bess version, an individual musketman would probably be at a disadvantage to say, a trained Parthian horse archer. However, training a soldier to use a musket takes weeks, training a soldier to wield a bow takes years, not to mention the costs associated with horses and the logistics required to field them.
Your greatest advantage will therefore be the size of the armies you can field. With massed musket fire, no enemy troops will be able to get close to you. Nonetheless, issuing a detachable bayonet to every troop will be highly recommended since it allows them to hold the line while the second (and optionally third) lines keep up their withering fire.
To sustain such large armies, you'll need to bring 2 additional items:
- A handbook on medicine and hygiene: before the 20th century (and even during it), most casualties in armies were caused by disease. Without hygiene, and proper training of your officers about where to setup camp and how to guarantee a proper water supply, your army might quickly have plenty of guns, but not enough people to use them!
- A book on constructing a field kitchen: The field kitchen allowed armies to cook the meals for soldiers, thereby severely reducing the amount of time spend by soldiers on foraging and cooking their food, and therefore massively increasing how far your army can move in a day. You will need to move quickly to giving other empires the time to copy your firearm design and field their own versions.
answered 7 hours ago
JonasJonas
3641 silver badge5 bronze badges
3641 silver badge5 bronze badges
$begingroup$
A flintlock requires spring steel. You're much better off with a matchlock, which can be built from any metal strong enough to handle the pressure of firing.
$endgroup$
– Mark
41 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A flintlock requires spring steel. You're much better off with a matchlock, which can be built from any metal strong enough to handle the pressure of firing.
$endgroup$
– Mark
41 mins ago
$begingroup$
A flintlock requires spring steel. You're much better off with a matchlock, which can be built from any metal strong enough to handle the pressure of firing.
$endgroup$
– Mark
41 mins ago
$begingroup$
A flintlock requires spring steel. You're much better off with a matchlock, which can be built from any metal strong enough to handle the pressure of firing.
$endgroup$
– Mark
41 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'm going to disagree with some of the naysayers and point out that as soon as gunpowder is discovered, they have all the technology they need to make any manual action gun. Revolvers, bolt action, lever action, break action or pump action long guns are all possible.
Some posters have pointed out that pre-modern metallurgy is not up to our standards. I agree. But you don't need it to be. You can simply use thicker chambers, and remember, black powder produces much less pressure than modern smokeless powder.
Some have pointed out that pre-modern machining is nowhere near as good as modern machining. Again, I agree. And again, with manual action guns you don't absolutely need it to be. Semiautomatic or automatic guns need machined precise to the micron because they work together. Every part has to work together precisely or the whole thing won't work. Manual action guns on the other hand have much looser tolerances. Tighter tolerances are still nice, but loose ones are not dealbreakers.
The key is to not just bring back a gun or blueprints for a gun, but also the recipe for fulminated mercury so you can make cartridges.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The problem is volume. Prior to about the mid-1800s, the only people who can make cartridges with the precision needed are jewelers. That rather limits the rate at which you can produce ammunition, and drives up the price.
$endgroup$
– Mark
42 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'm going to disagree with some of the naysayers and point out that as soon as gunpowder is discovered, they have all the technology they need to make any manual action gun. Revolvers, bolt action, lever action, break action or pump action long guns are all possible.
Some posters have pointed out that pre-modern metallurgy is not up to our standards. I agree. But you don't need it to be. You can simply use thicker chambers, and remember, black powder produces much less pressure than modern smokeless powder.
Some have pointed out that pre-modern machining is nowhere near as good as modern machining. Again, I agree. And again, with manual action guns you don't absolutely need it to be. Semiautomatic or automatic guns need machined precise to the micron because they work together. Every part has to work together precisely or the whole thing won't work. Manual action guns on the other hand have much looser tolerances. Tighter tolerances are still nice, but loose ones are not dealbreakers.
The key is to not just bring back a gun or blueprints for a gun, but also the recipe for fulminated mercury so you can make cartridges.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The problem is volume. Prior to about the mid-1800s, the only people who can make cartridges with the precision needed are jewelers. That rather limits the rate at which you can produce ammunition, and drives up the price.
$endgroup$
– Mark
42 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'm going to disagree with some of the naysayers and point out that as soon as gunpowder is discovered, they have all the technology they need to make any manual action gun. Revolvers, bolt action, lever action, break action or pump action long guns are all possible.
Some posters have pointed out that pre-modern metallurgy is not up to our standards. I agree. But you don't need it to be. You can simply use thicker chambers, and remember, black powder produces much less pressure than modern smokeless powder.
Some have pointed out that pre-modern machining is nowhere near as good as modern machining. Again, I agree. And again, with manual action guns you don't absolutely need it to be. Semiautomatic or automatic guns need machined precise to the micron because they work together. Every part has to work together precisely or the whole thing won't work. Manual action guns on the other hand have much looser tolerances. Tighter tolerances are still nice, but loose ones are not dealbreakers.
The key is to not just bring back a gun or blueprints for a gun, but also the recipe for fulminated mercury so you can make cartridges.
$endgroup$
I'm going to disagree with some of the naysayers and point out that as soon as gunpowder is discovered, they have all the technology they need to make any manual action gun. Revolvers, bolt action, lever action, break action or pump action long guns are all possible.
Some posters have pointed out that pre-modern metallurgy is not up to our standards. I agree. But you don't need it to be. You can simply use thicker chambers, and remember, black powder produces much less pressure than modern smokeless powder.
Some have pointed out that pre-modern machining is nowhere near as good as modern machining. Again, I agree. And again, with manual action guns you don't absolutely need it to be. Semiautomatic or automatic guns need machined precise to the micron because they work together. Every part has to work together precisely or the whole thing won't work. Manual action guns on the other hand have much looser tolerances. Tighter tolerances are still nice, but loose ones are not dealbreakers.
The key is to not just bring back a gun or blueprints for a gun, but also the recipe for fulminated mercury so you can make cartridges.
answered 5 hours ago
Ryan_LRyan_L
6,08012 silver badges31 bronze badges
6,08012 silver badges31 bronze badges
$begingroup$
The problem is volume. Prior to about the mid-1800s, the only people who can make cartridges with the precision needed are jewelers. That rather limits the rate at which you can produce ammunition, and drives up the price.
$endgroup$
– Mark
42 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The problem is volume. Prior to about the mid-1800s, the only people who can make cartridges with the precision needed are jewelers. That rather limits the rate at which you can produce ammunition, and drives up the price.
$endgroup$
– Mark
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
The problem is volume. Prior to about the mid-1800s, the only people who can make cartridges with the precision needed are jewelers. That rather limits the rate at which you can produce ammunition, and drives up the price.
$endgroup$
– Mark
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
The problem is volume. Prior to about the mid-1800s, the only people who can make cartridges with the precision needed are jewelers. That rather limits the rate at which you can produce ammunition, and drives up the price.
$endgroup$
– Mark
42 mins ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Depends on what "reproducible" means. How many firearms do you want to make, and most especially how many cartridges? And at what cost? A skilled jeweller could probably reproduce a brass cartridge at any time after the 4th century BCE, but the productivity would be abysmal. And, by the way, does your hero know how to make steel at least on a semi-industrial scale?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
10 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
"our Hero is also a gifted linguist and able to speak any language, old and new, to a good enough degree that he could express even more technical concepts to native speakers." Funnily enough, I'm not sure he could even explain the terms because they may simply not exist at the time. Look how Inuits have something like eight different words for snow. Languages tailor to our everyday needs. "Deflagrate", "explode" may not be of much use to a 8th century farmer, not even talking about the more technical terms.
$endgroup$
– Nyakouai
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Is a slingshot a fire arm?
$endgroup$
– tuskiomi
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Nyakouai Clearly we can teach the difference between "deflagrate" and "explode" through survival of the fittest. Oh wait... is that not heroic talk? Man, this hero stuff is tough!
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
There are many technologies other than weapons with which he could conquer the world. The first sextant; plans for an ocean-worthy wooden sailboat, punch-card weaving loom,... economics will trump a few weapons.
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago