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What is the English equivalent of 干物女 (dried fish woman)?
English idiom for 'Fry the fish using fish's own oil'Is there a better term than “fighting spirit” here?What is the English equivalent of hawilopar?Gender-neutral equivalent of “Man of the world”What is the English term, when someone provides truthful 'extra' information in support to promote own propaganda?English equivalent of “c'est gratuit”What’s the English equivalent of the Danish word “tovholder”?Singular word request: Word that means 'to attempt to fit in/be as a normal person would, though failing'?What is the word for someone who finds value and ambition in as many people as possible giving them positive regard and support?English equivalent to Dutch “Mopping while the tap is running”?
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Literally meaning dried fish woman, the popular slang 干物女 is used to call a woman in her twenties or older who, as nicely summarized in Wikipedia, has many of the following traits:
メールの返事が極端に遅い、短い (Her text replies are very slow and short.)
簡単な食事なら台所で立って食べる (If it is something simple, she will eat it standing in her kitchen.)
忘れ物を靴を履いたまま、膝立ちで部屋に上がり取りに行く (She will go to take forgotten stuff in her flat on her knees keeping the outdoor shoes in the air rather than put them off.)
休日はノーメイクでノーブラ (She won't put on her makeup and bra on nonworking days.)
半年ほど美容室に行っていない (She won't visit a beauty salon for half a year.)
冬場は毛の処理を怠る、又はしない (In winter she won't shave or wax her body hair properly or at all.)
1人で居酒屋に入れる (She has no problem going to a pub alone.)
最近ドキドキしていない (She rarely gets so excited that she experiences an increased heartbeat.)
What is the English equivalent? In other words, how are such women commonly or idiomatically called in English?
UPDATE: Following a valuable comment below, I would like to explain the common pattern. These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. It is a permanent psychological state of mind that manifests itself in many forms such as those described above. Psychology is not a rational thing, so it is hard to describe that state of mind in well-defined rational terms. But look at the literal meaning. It is a dried fish, not a lively fish. It is like psychologically giving up in the most global sense. A dried fish woman finds many things to be 面倒臭い (bothersome, tiresome) and, as a result, does not do them. I think that inside her brain, a dried fish woman gets decreased positive rewards for doing good things and/or increased negative feelings from having to make efforts. Such a shift results in a dried fish woman electing not to do many things many other women do, as described above. A dried fish woman does not make efforts to find a significant other. It is not a conscious decision to never marry, but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome. As a dried fish is devoid of moisture, a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc. "Lazy" is a somewhat close term, but is too generic. The term "dried fish woman" is about a certain way of life described above and caused by a specific state of mind as explained above.
single-word-requests phrase-requests idiom-requests
|
show 13 more comments
Literally meaning dried fish woman, the popular slang 干物女 is used to call a woman in her twenties or older who, as nicely summarized in Wikipedia, has many of the following traits:
メールの返事が極端に遅い、短い (Her text replies are very slow and short.)
簡単な食事なら台所で立って食べる (If it is something simple, she will eat it standing in her kitchen.)
忘れ物を靴を履いたまま、膝立ちで部屋に上がり取りに行く (She will go to take forgotten stuff in her flat on her knees keeping the outdoor shoes in the air rather than put them off.)
休日はノーメイクでノーブラ (She won't put on her makeup and bra on nonworking days.)
半年ほど美容室に行っていない (She won't visit a beauty salon for half a year.)
冬場は毛の処理を怠る、又はしない (In winter she won't shave or wax her body hair properly or at all.)
1人で居酒屋に入れる (She has no problem going to a pub alone.)
最近ドキドキしていない (She rarely gets so excited that she experiences an increased heartbeat.)
What is the English equivalent? In other words, how are such women commonly or idiomatically called in English?
UPDATE: Following a valuable comment below, I would like to explain the common pattern. These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. It is a permanent psychological state of mind that manifests itself in many forms such as those described above. Psychology is not a rational thing, so it is hard to describe that state of mind in well-defined rational terms. But look at the literal meaning. It is a dried fish, not a lively fish. It is like psychologically giving up in the most global sense. A dried fish woman finds many things to be 面倒臭い (bothersome, tiresome) and, as a result, does not do them. I think that inside her brain, a dried fish woman gets decreased positive rewards for doing good things and/or increased negative feelings from having to make efforts. Such a shift results in a dried fish woman electing not to do many things many other women do, as described above. A dried fish woman does not make efforts to find a significant other. It is not a conscious decision to never marry, but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome. As a dried fish is devoid of moisture, a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc. "Lazy" is a somewhat close term, but is too generic. The term "dried fish woman" is about a certain way of life described above and caused by a specific state of mind as explained above.
single-word-requests phrase-requests idiom-requests
There are far too many descriptions there. In fact, I'd have a problem coming up with a word or phrase for any of those descriptions, let alone several or all of them.
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
@JasonBassford : These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. And I am asking for a word or phrase for women who have that cause inside them.
– Mitsuko
9 hours ago
1
You will need to explain that in a way that makes this answerable. What is the root cause you're thinking of? (I'm unable to see any obvious pattern between all of these things.)
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
5
This sounds like a very specific cultural situation (not that there is an actual pattern in the world of particular women but that people have judged that there is such a pattern. In English, I can't think of a noun for such a concept, but there are lots of adjectives (mostly pejorative) around that idea.
– Mitch
8 hours ago
1
The woman I think of in your edited explanation is a very different woman to the one that comes to mind in the main question. The woman that ticks those first boxes could be a confident young woman who enjoys the challenge and excitement of meeting new people, so goes out alone, and ideally she has more fulfilling ways to spend her time than trips to the beauty salon. She might be a little bit too intelligent or maybe just too experienced to be easily stimulated by others. The other woman could be simply depressed or maybe just a bit worn down by life in general.
– S Conroy
4 hours ago
|
show 13 more comments
Literally meaning dried fish woman, the popular slang 干物女 is used to call a woman in her twenties or older who, as nicely summarized in Wikipedia, has many of the following traits:
メールの返事が極端に遅い、短い (Her text replies are very slow and short.)
簡単な食事なら台所で立って食べる (If it is something simple, she will eat it standing in her kitchen.)
忘れ物を靴を履いたまま、膝立ちで部屋に上がり取りに行く (She will go to take forgotten stuff in her flat on her knees keeping the outdoor shoes in the air rather than put them off.)
休日はノーメイクでノーブラ (She won't put on her makeup and bra on nonworking days.)
半年ほど美容室に行っていない (She won't visit a beauty salon for half a year.)
冬場は毛の処理を怠る、又はしない (In winter she won't shave or wax her body hair properly or at all.)
1人で居酒屋に入れる (She has no problem going to a pub alone.)
最近ドキドキしていない (She rarely gets so excited that she experiences an increased heartbeat.)
What is the English equivalent? In other words, how are such women commonly or idiomatically called in English?
UPDATE: Following a valuable comment below, I would like to explain the common pattern. These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. It is a permanent psychological state of mind that manifests itself in many forms such as those described above. Psychology is not a rational thing, so it is hard to describe that state of mind in well-defined rational terms. But look at the literal meaning. It is a dried fish, not a lively fish. It is like psychologically giving up in the most global sense. A dried fish woman finds many things to be 面倒臭い (bothersome, tiresome) and, as a result, does not do them. I think that inside her brain, a dried fish woman gets decreased positive rewards for doing good things and/or increased negative feelings from having to make efforts. Such a shift results in a dried fish woman electing not to do many things many other women do, as described above. A dried fish woman does not make efforts to find a significant other. It is not a conscious decision to never marry, but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome. As a dried fish is devoid of moisture, a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc. "Lazy" is a somewhat close term, but is too generic. The term "dried fish woman" is about a certain way of life described above and caused by a specific state of mind as explained above.
single-word-requests phrase-requests idiom-requests
Literally meaning dried fish woman, the popular slang 干物女 is used to call a woman in her twenties or older who, as nicely summarized in Wikipedia, has many of the following traits:
メールの返事が極端に遅い、短い (Her text replies are very slow and short.)
簡単な食事なら台所で立って食べる (If it is something simple, she will eat it standing in her kitchen.)
忘れ物を靴を履いたまま、膝立ちで部屋に上がり取りに行く (She will go to take forgotten stuff in her flat on her knees keeping the outdoor shoes in the air rather than put them off.)
休日はノーメイクでノーブラ (She won't put on her makeup and bra on nonworking days.)
半年ほど美容室に行っていない (She won't visit a beauty salon for half a year.)
冬場は毛の処理を怠る、又はしない (In winter she won't shave or wax her body hair properly or at all.)
1人で居酒屋に入れる (She has no problem going to a pub alone.)
最近ドキドキしていない (She rarely gets so excited that she experiences an increased heartbeat.)
What is the English equivalent? In other words, how are such women commonly or idiomatically called in English?
UPDATE: Following a valuable comment below, I would like to explain the common pattern. These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. It is a permanent psychological state of mind that manifests itself in many forms such as those described above. Psychology is not a rational thing, so it is hard to describe that state of mind in well-defined rational terms. But look at the literal meaning. It is a dried fish, not a lively fish. It is like psychologically giving up in the most global sense. A dried fish woman finds many things to be 面倒臭い (bothersome, tiresome) and, as a result, does not do them. I think that inside her brain, a dried fish woman gets decreased positive rewards for doing good things and/or increased negative feelings from having to make efforts. Such a shift results in a dried fish woman electing not to do many things many other women do, as described above. A dried fish woman does not make efforts to find a significant other. It is not a conscious decision to never marry, but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome. As a dried fish is devoid of moisture, a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc. "Lazy" is a somewhat close term, but is too generic. The term "dried fish woman" is about a certain way of life described above and caused by a specific state of mind as explained above.
single-word-requests phrase-requests idiom-requests
single-word-requests phrase-requests idiom-requests
edited 5 hours ago
Mitsuko
asked 9 hours ago
MitsukoMitsuko
4833 silver badges11 bronze badges
4833 silver badges11 bronze badges
There are far too many descriptions there. In fact, I'd have a problem coming up with a word or phrase for any of those descriptions, let alone several or all of them.
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
@JasonBassford : These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. And I am asking for a word or phrase for women who have that cause inside them.
– Mitsuko
9 hours ago
1
You will need to explain that in a way that makes this answerable. What is the root cause you're thinking of? (I'm unable to see any obvious pattern between all of these things.)
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
5
This sounds like a very specific cultural situation (not that there is an actual pattern in the world of particular women but that people have judged that there is such a pattern. In English, I can't think of a noun for such a concept, but there are lots of adjectives (mostly pejorative) around that idea.
– Mitch
8 hours ago
1
The woman I think of in your edited explanation is a very different woman to the one that comes to mind in the main question. The woman that ticks those first boxes could be a confident young woman who enjoys the challenge and excitement of meeting new people, so goes out alone, and ideally she has more fulfilling ways to spend her time than trips to the beauty salon. She might be a little bit too intelligent or maybe just too experienced to be easily stimulated by others. The other woman could be simply depressed or maybe just a bit worn down by life in general.
– S Conroy
4 hours ago
|
show 13 more comments
There are far too many descriptions there. In fact, I'd have a problem coming up with a word or phrase for any of those descriptions, let alone several or all of them.
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
@JasonBassford : These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. And I am asking for a word or phrase for women who have that cause inside them.
– Mitsuko
9 hours ago
1
You will need to explain that in a way that makes this answerable. What is the root cause you're thinking of? (I'm unable to see any obvious pattern between all of these things.)
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
5
This sounds like a very specific cultural situation (not that there is an actual pattern in the world of particular women but that people have judged that there is such a pattern. In English, I can't think of a noun for such a concept, but there are lots of adjectives (mostly pejorative) around that idea.
– Mitch
8 hours ago
1
The woman I think of in your edited explanation is a very different woman to the one that comes to mind in the main question. The woman that ticks those first boxes could be a confident young woman who enjoys the challenge and excitement of meeting new people, so goes out alone, and ideally she has more fulfilling ways to spend her time than trips to the beauty salon. She might be a little bit too intelligent or maybe just too experienced to be easily stimulated by others. The other woman could be simply depressed or maybe just a bit worn down by life in general.
– S Conroy
4 hours ago
There are far too many descriptions there. In fact, I'd have a problem coming up with a word or phrase for any of those descriptions, let alone several or all of them.
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
There are far too many descriptions there. In fact, I'd have a problem coming up with a word or phrase for any of those descriptions, let alone several or all of them.
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
@JasonBassford : These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. And I am asking for a word or phrase for women who have that cause inside them.
– Mitsuko
9 hours ago
@JasonBassford : These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. And I am asking for a word or phrase for women who have that cause inside them.
– Mitsuko
9 hours ago
1
1
You will need to explain that in a way that makes this answerable. What is the root cause you're thinking of? (I'm unable to see any obvious pattern between all of these things.)
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
You will need to explain that in a way that makes this answerable. What is the root cause you're thinking of? (I'm unable to see any obvious pattern between all of these things.)
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
5
5
This sounds like a very specific cultural situation (not that there is an actual pattern in the world of particular women but that people have judged that there is such a pattern. In English, I can't think of a noun for such a concept, but there are lots of adjectives (mostly pejorative) around that idea.
– Mitch
8 hours ago
This sounds like a very specific cultural situation (not that there is an actual pattern in the world of particular women but that people have judged that there is such a pattern. In English, I can't think of a noun for such a concept, but there are lots of adjectives (mostly pejorative) around that idea.
– Mitch
8 hours ago
1
1
The woman I think of in your edited explanation is a very different woman to the one that comes to mind in the main question. The woman that ticks those first boxes could be a confident young woman who enjoys the challenge and excitement of meeting new people, so goes out alone, and ideally she has more fulfilling ways to spend her time than trips to the beauty salon. She might be a little bit too intelligent or maybe just too experienced to be easily stimulated by others. The other woman could be simply depressed or maybe just a bit worn down by life in general.
– S Conroy
4 hours ago
The woman I think of in your edited explanation is a very different woman to the one that comes to mind in the main question. The woman that ticks those first boxes could be a confident young woman who enjoys the challenge and excitement of meeting new people, so goes out alone, and ideally she has more fulfilling ways to spend her time than trips to the beauty salon. She might be a little bit too intelligent or maybe just too experienced to be easily stimulated by others. The other woman could be simply depressed or maybe just a bit worn down by life in general.
– S Conroy
4 hours ago
|
show 13 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
There is no direct equivalent phrase, in the sense that the exact list of qualities would not be associated with an English phrase. The connotation is also tricky - a connotative match would have to be both negative and reclaimed by some of these women.
That said, a more prosaic phrase that captures much of the literal meaning is independent woman: a woman who works and lives her life free of dependence on a relationship.
The term is present at least as far back as the 19th and early 20th centuries, where it referred to women who worked in factories, as teachers, or in other service jobs. This early letter in a periodical called The Texaco Star (1916) represents the negative perception of such women:
Economically the so-called independent woman is important and rates high. She earns money - that accounts for her rating. I wonder how many men enjoy working just for themselves? The independent woman does that. Sometimes she has parents or a husband to support, but for the most part she works for herself.
It turns out she's thirty years old or older.
I am speaking of the independent woman past thirty years of age, the ones who probably will be independent forever. One sees them by the thousands - well dressed, dependable -
They have a "dead look," attributed by the letter writer to lacking a husband or family to live for.
but the dead look in their eyes tells the discerning observer that the most of them would give away their wonderful independence in the twinkling of an eye for something real to live for. [...] I have met a great many of these women - stenographers, saleswomen, teachers, librarians - and it is the tragic truth that they are a restless and embittered class. A vast number of these decent, efficient women are real women; they have emotions and the right desire for a mate and a home. They have just been cheated of a woman's normal life, just as much as if they were medieval nuns or the victims of war.
The expression was also claimed as a label for the working woman. A periodical called The Independent Woman was published from 1920 to 1956, after which it changed its title to National Business Woman (source). The label was pragmatic - women who worked enjoyed economic independence. For some people this independence was negative because it separated women from traditional family structures. For other people this independence was liberating.
That paradigm has largely remained to the present day. For example, note the mingling of independence and negativity in these Urban Dictionary definitions and examples. For example, this sounds independent:
A confident self motivated woman who takes responsibility for her actions and never blame the rest of the world for her mistakes or her downfalls. Her pride doesn't get in the way if she ever needs a helping hand.
But the definition author betrays some prejudice in the example by writing about a woman who pretends to be independent but is actually lonely:
A women [sic], who is stubborn, rude, lonely and always saying that she is an independent woman, need to stop lying to herself and the people around her.
Meanwhile, this Wikipedia article sums up the expression's pop cultural history, and there are many articles like this one in the Huffington Post encouraging the independent woman.
In terms of usage, this Google Ngram shows an uptick in usage after about 1980, whereas the near-synonym spinster (denoting an unmarried older woman) remains relatively stable. Meanwhile, the Corpus for Contemporary American English confirms 138 results for the phrase, with strong, fierce, and feminist all being common collocations. (Examples: "a strong independent woman," "a fiercely independent woman," "independent woman formed by the feminist struggles of the 1970s.")
So there is a lot of support for it being a recognizable phrase. I would use it as shorthand for a woman who works, is not tied down by familial obligations, and enjoys going out or traveling alone.
add a comment |
I looked up this term in Japanese Wikipedia, which says:
干物女とは恋愛を放棄している、様々な事を面倒臭がり適当に済ませてしまう女性のこと。
If I'm getting the sense right, it means, roughly, "a woman who has abandoned love, and finds the various details of her life bothersome and handles them in a lazy or careless manner."
The article goes on to say that the term 干物女 comes from a manga series by Hiura Satoru, which has been adapted for television and film.
Certainly the exemplar of such a person exists in many cultures, but names like "dried fish woman" nevertheless will not translate effectively into other languages: the overtones simply head in the wrong direction. For example, in English referring to a woman as "dried up" would likely mean someone who is barren or post-menopause, etc., but it would not mean she has "abandoned love," at least not deliberately.
Additionally, the person illuminated in the manga series would have a number of overtones accessible only to readers of the series, further complicating the process of finding a good translation.
From what I'm hearing, I would call such a person "walled off" and would judge her very likely to be clinically depressed. But I can't think of a single really good term that has one foot in the Japanese and the other solidly in English.
add a comment |
loner
a person who likes to do things on their own without other people:
-Cambridge online
A loner does not seek out the company of other people, and prefers to do things on their own terms. They do not need the approval of other people, not even their parents, and are often pragmatic in their approach to life.
Unlike "juiceless", which is derogatory, loner is a term many independent people embrace.
add a comment |
Given that "juicy" can be used to describe a vibrant and attractive woman (witness Penny's jeans on Big Bang Theory), I was thinking if the connotation is "dried-up", maybe you could say she is...
juiceless (adj.)
lacking interest or stimulation; dull and lifeless;
-Free Dictionary.com
From your edit...
"...but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome....a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc."
also there is...
lackluster (adj.)
lacking in sheen, brilliance, or vitality : dull, mediocre
-Merriam Webster
...these would seem to work in some of the cases, but certainly many just seem to be what lots of independent women would do in the Western world without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
1
Thanks a lot. Your variant indeed seems to be pretty close. And in Japan some women call themselves a dried fish woman without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
– Mitsuko
4 hours ago
Also...a lot of those examples sound like "loner". Many people would not like being called "juiceless", but many would accept "loner".
– Cascabel
4 hours ago
add a comment |
From the update in your question, it sounds to me like the "psychological root cause" for this sort of person is clinical depression. Therefore, I would describe such a person as either dysthymic, or, more commonly,
despondent
downcast or disheartened; lacking hope or courage; dejected
-Free Dictionary
While there are many synonyms, I am unaware of a gender-specific one. But for what it's worth, depression is under-reported in men.
add a comment |
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There is no direct equivalent phrase, in the sense that the exact list of qualities would not be associated with an English phrase. The connotation is also tricky - a connotative match would have to be both negative and reclaimed by some of these women.
That said, a more prosaic phrase that captures much of the literal meaning is independent woman: a woman who works and lives her life free of dependence on a relationship.
The term is present at least as far back as the 19th and early 20th centuries, where it referred to women who worked in factories, as teachers, or in other service jobs. This early letter in a periodical called The Texaco Star (1916) represents the negative perception of such women:
Economically the so-called independent woman is important and rates high. She earns money - that accounts for her rating. I wonder how many men enjoy working just for themselves? The independent woman does that. Sometimes she has parents or a husband to support, but for the most part she works for herself.
It turns out she's thirty years old or older.
I am speaking of the independent woman past thirty years of age, the ones who probably will be independent forever. One sees them by the thousands - well dressed, dependable -
They have a "dead look," attributed by the letter writer to lacking a husband or family to live for.
but the dead look in their eyes tells the discerning observer that the most of them would give away their wonderful independence in the twinkling of an eye for something real to live for. [...] I have met a great many of these women - stenographers, saleswomen, teachers, librarians - and it is the tragic truth that they are a restless and embittered class. A vast number of these decent, efficient women are real women; they have emotions and the right desire for a mate and a home. They have just been cheated of a woman's normal life, just as much as if they were medieval nuns or the victims of war.
The expression was also claimed as a label for the working woman. A periodical called The Independent Woman was published from 1920 to 1956, after which it changed its title to National Business Woman (source). The label was pragmatic - women who worked enjoyed economic independence. For some people this independence was negative because it separated women from traditional family structures. For other people this independence was liberating.
That paradigm has largely remained to the present day. For example, note the mingling of independence and negativity in these Urban Dictionary definitions and examples. For example, this sounds independent:
A confident self motivated woman who takes responsibility for her actions and never blame the rest of the world for her mistakes or her downfalls. Her pride doesn't get in the way if she ever needs a helping hand.
But the definition author betrays some prejudice in the example by writing about a woman who pretends to be independent but is actually lonely:
A women [sic], who is stubborn, rude, lonely and always saying that she is an independent woman, need to stop lying to herself and the people around her.
Meanwhile, this Wikipedia article sums up the expression's pop cultural history, and there are many articles like this one in the Huffington Post encouraging the independent woman.
In terms of usage, this Google Ngram shows an uptick in usage after about 1980, whereas the near-synonym spinster (denoting an unmarried older woman) remains relatively stable. Meanwhile, the Corpus for Contemporary American English confirms 138 results for the phrase, with strong, fierce, and feminist all being common collocations. (Examples: "a strong independent woman," "a fiercely independent woman," "independent woman formed by the feminist struggles of the 1970s.")
So there is a lot of support for it being a recognizable phrase. I would use it as shorthand for a woman who works, is not tied down by familial obligations, and enjoys going out or traveling alone.
add a comment |
There is no direct equivalent phrase, in the sense that the exact list of qualities would not be associated with an English phrase. The connotation is also tricky - a connotative match would have to be both negative and reclaimed by some of these women.
That said, a more prosaic phrase that captures much of the literal meaning is independent woman: a woman who works and lives her life free of dependence on a relationship.
The term is present at least as far back as the 19th and early 20th centuries, where it referred to women who worked in factories, as teachers, or in other service jobs. This early letter in a periodical called The Texaco Star (1916) represents the negative perception of such women:
Economically the so-called independent woman is important and rates high. She earns money - that accounts for her rating. I wonder how many men enjoy working just for themselves? The independent woman does that. Sometimes she has parents or a husband to support, but for the most part she works for herself.
It turns out she's thirty years old or older.
I am speaking of the independent woman past thirty years of age, the ones who probably will be independent forever. One sees them by the thousands - well dressed, dependable -
They have a "dead look," attributed by the letter writer to lacking a husband or family to live for.
but the dead look in their eyes tells the discerning observer that the most of them would give away their wonderful independence in the twinkling of an eye for something real to live for. [...] I have met a great many of these women - stenographers, saleswomen, teachers, librarians - and it is the tragic truth that they are a restless and embittered class. A vast number of these decent, efficient women are real women; they have emotions and the right desire for a mate and a home. They have just been cheated of a woman's normal life, just as much as if they were medieval nuns or the victims of war.
The expression was also claimed as a label for the working woman. A periodical called The Independent Woman was published from 1920 to 1956, after which it changed its title to National Business Woman (source). The label was pragmatic - women who worked enjoyed economic independence. For some people this independence was negative because it separated women from traditional family structures. For other people this independence was liberating.
That paradigm has largely remained to the present day. For example, note the mingling of independence and negativity in these Urban Dictionary definitions and examples. For example, this sounds independent:
A confident self motivated woman who takes responsibility for her actions and never blame the rest of the world for her mistakes or her downfalls. Her pride doesn't get in the way if she ever needs a helping hand.
But the definition author betrays some prejudice in the example by writing about a woman who pretends to be independent but is actually lonely:
A women [sic], who is stubborn, rude, lonely and always saying that she is an independent woman, need to stop lying to herself and the people around her.
Meanwhile, this Wikipedia article sums up the expression's pop cultural history, and there are many articles like this one in the Huffington Post encouraging the independent woman.
In terms of usage, this Google Ngram shows an uptick in usage after about 1980, whereas the near-synonym spinster (denoting an unmarried older woman) remains relatively stable. Meanwhile, the Corpus for Contemporary American English confirms 138 results for the phrase, with strong, fierce, and feminist all being common collocations. (Examples: "a strong independent woman," "a fiercely independent woman," "independent woman formed by the feminist struggles of the 1970s.")
So there is a lot of support for it being a recognizable phrase. I would use it as shorthand for a woman who works, is not tied down by familial obligations, and enjoys going out or traveling alone.
add a comment |
There is no direct equivalent phrase, in the sense that the exact list of qualities would not be associated with an English phrase. The connotation is also tricky - a connotative match would have to be both negative and reclaimed by some of these women.
That said, a more prosaic phrase that captures much of the literal meaning is independent woman: a woman who works and lives her life free of dependence on a relationship.
The term is present at least as far back as the 19th and early 20th centuries, where it referred to women who worked in factories, as teachers, or in other service jobs. This early letter in a periodical called The Texaco Star (1916) represents the negative perception of such women:
Economically the so-called independent woman is important and rates high. She earns money - that accounts for her rating. I wonder how many men enjoy working just for themselves? The independent woman does that. Sometimes she has parents or a husband to support, but for the most part she works for herself.
It turns out she's thirty years old or older.
I am speaking of the independent woman past thirty years of age, the ones who probably will be independent forever. One sees them by the thousands - well dressed, dependable -
They have a "dead look," attributed by the letter writer to lacking a husband or family to live for.
but the dead look in their eyes tells the discerning observer that the most of them would give away their wonderful independence in the twinkling of an eye for something real to live for. [...] I have met a great many of these women - stenographers, saleswomen, teachers, librarians - and it is the tragic truth that they are a restless and embittered class. A vast number of these decent, efficient women are real women; they have emotions and the right desire for a mate and a home. They have just been cheated of a woman's normal life, just as much as if they were medieval nuns or the victims of war.
The expression was also claimed as a label for the working woman. A periodical called The Independent Woman was published from 1920 to 1956, after which it changed its title to National Business Woman (source). The label was pragmatic - women who worked enjoyed economic independence. For some people this independence was negative because it separated women from traditional family structures. For other people this independence was liberating.
That paradigm has largely remained to the present day. For example, note the mingling of independence and negativity in these Urban Dictionary definitions and examples. For example, this sounds independent:
A confident self motivated woman who takes responsibility for her actions and never blame the rest of the world for her mistakes or her downfalls. Her pride doesn't get in the way if she ever needs a helping hand.
But the definition author betrays some prejudice in the example by writing about a woman who pretends to be independent but is actually lonely:
A women [sic], who is stubborn, rude, lonely and always saying that she is an independent woman, need to stop lying to herself and the people around her.
Meanwhile, this Wikipedia article sums up the expression's pop cultural history, and there are many articles like this one in the Huffington Post encouraging the independent woman.
In terms of usage, this Google Ngram shows an uptick in usage after about 1980, whereas the near-synonym spinster (denoting an unmarried older woman) remains relatively stable. Meanwhile, the Corpus for Contemporary American English confirms 138 results for the phrase, with strong, fierce, and feminist all being common collocations. (Examples: "a strong independent woman," "a fiercely independent woman," "independent woman formed by the feminist struggles of the 1970s.")
So there is a lot of support for it being a recognizable phrase. I would use it as shorthand for a woman who works, is not tied down by familial obligations, and enjoys going out or traveling alone.
There is no direct equivalent phrase, in the sense that the exact list of qualities would not be associated with an English phrase. The connotation is also tricky - a connotative match would have to be both negative and reclaimed by some of these women.
That said, a more prosaic phrase that captures much of the literal meaning is independent woman: a woman who works and lives her life free of dependence on a relationship.
The term is present at least as far back as the 19th and early 20th centuries, where it referred to women who worked in factories, as teachers, or in other service jobs. This early letter in a periodical called The Texaco Star (1916) represents the negative perception of such women:
Economically the so-called independent woman is important and rates high. She earns money - that accounts for her rating. I wonder how many men enjoy working just for themselves? The independent woman does that. Sometimes she has parents or a husband to support, but for the most part she works for herself.
It turns out she's thirty years old or older.
I am speaking of the independent woman past thirty years of age, the ones who probably will be independent forever. One sees them by the thousands - well dressed, dependable -
They have a "dead look," attributed by the letter writer to lacking a husband or family to live for.
but the dead look in their eyes tells the discerning observer that the most of them would give away their wonderful independence in the twinkling of an eye for something real to live for. [...] I have met a great many of these women - stenographers, saleswomen, teachers, librarians - and it is the tragic truth that they are a restless and embittered class. A vast number of these decent, efficient women are real women; they have emotions and the right desire for a mate and a home. They have just been cheated of a woman's normal life, just as much as if they were medieval nuns or the victims of war.
The expression was also claimed as a label for the working woman. A periodical called The Independent Woman was published from 1920 to 1956, after which it changed its title to National Business Woman (source). The label was pragmatic - women who worked enjoyed economic independence. For some people this independence was negative because it separated women from traditional family structures. For other people this independence was liberating.
That paradigm has largely remained to the present day. For example, note the mingling of independence and negativity in these Urban Dictionary definitions and examples. For example, this sounds independent:
A confident self motivated woman who takes responsibility for her actions and never blame the rest of the world for her mistakes or her downfalls. Her pride doesn't get in the way if she ever needs a helping hand.
But the definition author betrays some prejudice in the example by writing about a woman who pretends to be independent but is actually lonely:
A women [sic], who is stubborn, rude, lonely and always saying that she is an independent woman, need to stop lying to herself and the people around her.
Meanwhile, this Wikipedia article sums up the expression's pop cultural history, and there are many articles like this one in the Huffington Post encouraging the independent woman.
In terms of usage, this Google Ngram shows an uptick in usage after about 1980, whereas the near-synonym spinster (denoting an unmarried older woman) remains relatively stable. Meanwhile, the Corpus for Contemporary American English confirms 138 results for the phrase, with strong, fierce, and feminist all being common collocations. (Examples: "a strong independent woman," "a fiercely independent woman," "independent woman formed by the feminist struggles of the 1970s.")
So there is a lot of support for it being a recognizable phrase. I would use it as shorthand for a woman who works, is not tied down by familial obligations, and enjoys going out or traveling alone.
answered 4 hours ago
TaliesinMerlinTaliesinMerlin
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I looked up this term in Japanese Wikipedia, which says:
干物女とは恋愛を放棄している、様々な事を面倒臭がり適当に済ませてしまう女性のこと。
If I'm getting the sense right, it means, roughly, "a woman who has abandoned love, and finds the various details of her life bothersome and handles them in a lazy or careless manner."
The article goes on to say that the term 干物女 comes from a manga series by Hiura Satoru, which has been adapted for television and film.
Certainly the exemplar of such a person exists in many cultures, but names like "dried fish woman" nevertheless will not translate effectively into other languages: the overtones simply head in the wrong direction. For example, in English referring to a woman as "dried up" would likely mean someone who is barren or post-menopause, etc., but it would not mean she has "abandoned love," at least not deliberately.
Additionally, the person illuminated in the manga series would have a number of overtones accessible only to readers of the series, further complicating the process of finding a good translation.
From what I'm hearing, I would call such a person "walled off" and would judge her very likely to be clinically depressed. But I can't think of a single really good term that has one foot in the Japanese and the other solidly in English.
add a comment |
I looked up this term in Japanese Wikipedia, which says:
干物女とは恋愛を放棄している、様々な事を面倒臭がり適当に済ませてしまう女性のこと。
If I'm getting the sense right, it means, roughly, "a woman who has abandoned love, and finds the various details of her life bothersome and handles them in a lazy or careless manner."
The article goes on to say that the term 干物女 comes from a manga series by Hiura Satoru, which has been adapted for television and film.
Certainly the exemplar of such a person exists in many cultures, but names like "dried fish woman" nevertheless will not translate effectively into other languages: the overtones simply head in the wrong direction. For example, in English referring to a woman as "dried up" would likely mean someone who is barren or post-menopause, etc., but it would not mean she has "abandoned love," at least not deliberately.
Additionally, the person illuminated in the manga series would have a number of overtones accessible only to readers of the series, further complicating the process of finding a good translation.
From what I'm hearing, I would call such a person "walled off" and would judge her very likely to be clinically depressed. But I can't think of a single really good term that has one foot in the Japanese and the other solidly in English.
add a comment |
I looked up this term in Japanese Wikipedia, which says:
干物女とは恋愛を放棄している、様々な事を面倒臭がり適当に済ませてしまう女性のこと。
If I'm getting the sense right, it means, roughly, "a woman who has abandoned love, and finds the various details of her life bothersome and handles them in a lazy or careless manner."
The article goes on to say that the term 干物女 comes from a manga series by Hiura Satoru, which has been adapted for television and film.
Certainly the exemplar of such a person exists in many cultures, but names like "dried fish woman" nevertheless will not translate effectively into other languages: the overtones simply head in the wrong direction. For example, in English referring to a woman as "dried up" would likely mean someone who is barren or post-menopause, etc., but it would not mean she has "abandoned love," at least not deliberately.
Additionally, the person illuminated in the manga series would have a number of overtones accessible only to readers of the series, further complicating the process of finding a good translation.
From what I'm hearing, I would call such a person "walled off" and would judge her very likely to be clinically depressed. But I can't think of a single really good term that has one foot in the Japanese and the other solidly in English.
I looked up this term in Japanese Wikipedia, which says:
干物女とは恋愛を放棄している、様々な事を面倒臭がり適当に済ませてしまう女性のこと。
If I'm getting the sense right, it means, roughly, "a woman who has abandoned love, and finds the various details of her life bothersome and handles them in a lazy or careless manner."
The article goes on to say that the term 干物女 comes from a manga series by Hiura Satoru, which has been adapted for television and film.
Certainly the exemplar of such a person exists in many cultures, but names like "dried fish woman" nevertheless will not translate effectively into other languages: the overtones simply head in the wrong direction. For example, in English referring to a woman as "dried up" would likely mean someone who is barren or post-menopause, etc., but it would not mean she has "abandoned love," at least not deliberately.
Additionally, the person illuminated in the manga series would have a number of overtones accessible only to readers of the series, further complicating the process of finding a good translation.
From what I'm hearing, I would call such a person "walled off" and would judge her very likely to be clinically depressed. But I can't think of a single really good term that has one foot in the Japanese and the other solidly in English.
answered 3 hours ago
RobustoRobusto
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131k30 gold badges316 silver badges528 bronze badges
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loner
a person who likes to do things on their own without other people:
-Cambridge online
A loner does not seek out the company of other people, and prefers to do things on their own terms. They do not need the approval of other people, not even their parents, and are often pragmatic in their approach to life.
Unlike "juiceless", which is derogatory, loner is a term many independent people embrace.
add a comment |
loner
a person who likes to do things on their own without other people:
-Cambridge online
A loner does not seek out the company of other people, and prefers to do things on their own terms. They do not need the approval of other people, not even their parents, and are often pragmatic in their approach to life.
Unlike "juiceless", which is derogatory, loner is a term many independent people embrace.
add a comment |
loner
a person who likes to do things on their own without other people:
-Cambridge online
A loner does not seek out the company of other people, and prefers to do things on their own terms. They do not need the approval of other people, not even their parents, and are often pragmatic in their approach to life.
Unlike "juiceless", which is derogatory, loner is a term many independent people embrace.
loner
a person who likes to do things on their own without other people:
-Cambridge online
A loner does not seek out the company of other people, and prefers to do things on their own terms. They do not need the approval of other people, not even their parents, and are often pragmatic in their approach to life.
Unlike "juiceless", which is derogatory, loner is a term many independent people embrace.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
CascabelCascabel
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Given that "juicy" can be used to describe a vibrant and attractive woman (witness Penny's jeans on Big Bang Theory), I was thinking if the connotation is "dried-up", maybe you could say she is...
juiceless (adj.)
lacking interest or stimulation; dull and lifeless;
-Free Dictionary.com
From your edit...
"...but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome....a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc."
also there is...
lackluster (adj.)
lacking in sheen, brilliance, or vitality : dull, mediocre
-Merriam Webster
...these would seem to work in some of the cases, but certainly many just seem to be what lots of independent women would do in the Western world without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
1
Thanks a lot. Your variant indeed seems to be pretty close. And in Japan some women call themselves a dried fish woman without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
– Mitsuko
4 hours ago
Also...a lot of those examples sound like "loner". Many people would not like being called "juiceless", but many would accept "loner".
– Cascabel
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Given that "juicy" can be used to describe a vibrant and attractive woman (witness Penny's jeans on Big Bang Theory), I was thinking if the connotation is "dried-up", maybe you could say she is...
juiceless (adj.)
lacking interest or stimulation; dull and lifeless;
-Free Dictionary.com
From your edit...
"...but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome....a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc."
also there is...
lackluster (adj.)
lacking in sheen, brilliance, or vitality : dull, mediocre
-Merriam Webster
...these would seem to work in some of the cases, but certainly many just seem to be what lots of independent women would do in the Western world without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
1
Thanks a lot. Your variant indeed seems to be pretty close. And in Japan some women call themselves a dried fish woman without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
– Mitsuko
4 hours ago
Also...a lot of those examples sound like "loner". Many people would not like being called "juiceless", but many would accept "loner".
– Cascabel
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Given that "juicy" can be used to describe a vibrant and attractive woman (witness Penny's jeans on Big Bang Theory), I was thinking if the connotation is "dried-up", maybe you could say she is...
juiceless (adj.)
lacking interest or stimulation; dull and lifeless;
-Free Dictionary.com
From your edit...
"...but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome....a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc."
also there is...
lackluster (adj.)
lacking in sheen, brilliance, or vitality : dull, mediocre
-Merriam Webster
...these would seem to work in some of the cases, but certainly many just seem to be what lots of independent women would do in the Western world without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
Given that "juicy" can be used to describe a vibrant and attractive woman (witness Penny's jeans on Big Bang Theory), I was thinking if the connotation is "dried-up", maybe you could say she is...
juiceless (adj.)
lacking interest or stimulation; dull and lifeless;
-Free Dictionary.com
From your edit...
"...but rather that she lacks a motivation to make efforts or finds relationships to be bothersome....a dried fish woman is devoid of energy, motivation, feeling of love, etc."
also there is...
lackluster (adj.)
lacking in sheen, brilliance, or vitality : dull, mediocre
-Merriam Webster
...these would seem to work in some of the cases, but certainly many just seem to be what lots of independent women would do in the Western world without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
CascabelCascabel
9,6746 gold badges32 silver badges61 bronze badges
9,6746 gold badges32 silver badges61 bronze badges
1
Thanks a lot. Your variant indeed seems to be pretty close. And in Japan some women call themselves a dried fish woman without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
– Mitsuko
4 hours ago
Also...a lot of those examples sound like "loner". Many people would not like being called "juiceless", but many would accept "loner".
– Cascabel
4 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Thanks a lot. Your variant indeed seems to be pretty close. And in Japan some women call themselves a dried fish woman without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
– Mitsuko
4 hours ago
Also...a lot of those examples sound like "loner". Many people would not like being called "juiceless", but many would accept "loner".
– Cascabel
4 hours ago
1
1
Thanks a lot. Your variant indeed seems to be pretty close. And in Japan some women call themselves a dried fish woman without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
– Mitsuko
4 hours ago
Thanks a lot. Your variant indeed seems to be pretty close. And in Japan some women call themselves a dried fish woman without worrying about being criticized and stigmatized by society.
– Mitsuko
4 hours ago
Also...a lot of those examples sound like "loner". Many people would not like being called "juiceless", but many would accept "loner".
– Cascabel
4 hours ago
Also...a lot of those examples sound like "loner". Many people would not like being called "juiceless", but many would accept "loner".
– Cascabel
4 hours ago
add a comment |
From the update in your question, it sounds to me like the "psychological root cause" for this sort of person is clinical depression. Therefore, I would describe such a person as either dysthymic, or, more commonly,
despondent
downcast or disheartened; lacking hope or courage; dejected
-Free Dictionary
While there are many synonyms, I am unaware of a gender-specific one. But for what it's worth, depression is under-reported in men.
add a comment |
From the update in your question, it sounds to me like the "psychological root cause" for this sort of person is clinical depression. Therefore, I would describe such a person as either dysthymic, or, more commonly,
despondent
downcast or disheartened; lacking hope or courage; dejected
-Free Dictionary
While there are many synonyms, I am unaware of a gender-specific one. But for what it's worth, depression is under-reported in men.
add a comment |
From the update in your question, it sounds to me like the "psychological root cause" for this sort of person is clinical depression. Therefore, I would describe such a person as either dysthymic, or, more commonly,
despondent
downcast or disheartened; lacking hope or courage; dejected
-Free Dictionary
While there are many synonyms, I am unaware of a gender-specific one. But for what it's worth, depression is under-reported in men.
From the update in your question, it sounds to me like the "psychological root cause" for this sort of person is clinical depression. Therefore, I would describe such a person as either dysthymic, or, more commonly,
despondent
downcast or disheartened; lacking hope or courage; dejected
-Free Dictionary
While there are many synonyms, I am unaware of a gender-specific one. But for what it's worth, depression is under-reported in men.
answered 11 mins ago
JoshJosh
3081 silver badge6 bronze badges
3081 silver badge6 bronze badges
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add a comment |
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There are far too many descriptions there. In fact, I'd have a problem coming up with a word or phrase for any of those descriptions, let alone several or all of them.
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
@JasonBassford : These traits come together for a reason. There is a psychological root cause. And I am asking for a word or phrase for women who have that cause inside them.
– Mitsuko
9 hours ago
1
You will need to explain that in a way that makes this answerable. What is the root cause you're thinking of? (I'm unable to see any obvious pattern between all of these things.)
– Jason Bassford
9 hours ago
5
This sounds like a very specific cultural situation (not that there is an actual pattern in the world of particular women but that people have judged that there is such a pattern. In English, I can't think of a noun for such a concept, but there are lots of adjectives (mostly pejorative) around that idea.
– Mitch
8 hours ago
1
The woman I think of in your edited explanation is a very different woman to the one that comes to mind in the main question. The woman that ticks those first boxes could be a confident young woman who enjoys the challenge and excitement of meeting new people, so goes out alone, and ideally she has more fulfilling ways to spend her time than trips to the beauty salon. She might be a little bit too intelligent or maybe just too experienced to be easily stimulated by others. The other woman could be simply depressed or maybe just a bit worn down by life in general.
– S Conroy
4 hours ago