Can an abelian group be a real vector space in more than one way?Is an automorphism of the field of real numbers the identity map?number of differents vector space structures over the same field $mathbbF$ on an abelian groupnumber of differents vector space structures over the same field $mathbbF$ on an abelian groupModule, vector space and abelian groupClassify all possible $R$-module structures on a vector spaceWhen can an infinite abelian group be embedded in the multiplicative group of a field?Can the integers be made into a vector space over any Finite Field?Question on uniquely $p$-divisible groupsPossible differences between a vector space and the action of a multiplicative group of a field over an abelian groupShow if an abelian group $G$ has a $mathbb Q$-vector space structure, then it is unique.An abelian group as an $mathbb F_2$-vector spaceHow many products can a $K$-vector space $v$ have?
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Can an abelian group be a real vector space in more than one way?
Why can't supermassive black holes merge? (or can they?)
Can an abelian group be a real vector space in more than one way?
Is an automorphism of the field of real numbers the identity map?number of differents vector space structures over the same field $mathbbF$ on an abelian groupnumber of differents vector space structures over the same field $mathbbF$ on an abelian groupModule, vector space and abelian groupClassify all possible $R$-module structures on a vector spaceWhen can an infinite abelian group be embedded in the multiplicative group of a field?Can the integers be made into a vector space over any Finite Field?Question on uniquely $p$-divisible groupsPossible differences between a vector space and the action of a multiplicative group of a field over an abelian groupShow if an abelian group $G$ has a $mathbb Q$-vector space structure, then it is unique.An abelian group as an $mathbb F_2$-vector spaceHow many products can a $K$-vector space $v$ have?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
We know that any $mathbbZ$ module structure on an abelian group is unique, and furthermore the same is true for $mathbbQ$.
Any complex vector space structure is not unique, we can just compose with an automorphism of $mathbbC$ (for example the conjugation map).
However, $mathbbR$ has trivial automorphism group, see:
Is an automorphism of the field of real numbers the identity map?
So my question is, given an abelian group made into an $mathbbR$ vector space, is this the only way we can do this?
We would get another structure if we can embed $mathbbR$ into itself, but I'm not sure if this is possible.
If not, then of all the different $mathbbR$ structures, must they all have the same dimension?
I know that both of these are not true for general fields.
Thanks in advance.
(Related: number of differents vector space structures over the same field $mathbbF$ on an abelian group)
vector-spaces field-theory modules
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We know that any $mathbbZ$ module structure on an abelian group is unique, and furthermore the same is true for $mathbbQ$.
Any complex vector space structure is not unique, we can just compose with an automorphism of $mathbbC$ (for example the conjugation map).
However, $mathbbR$ has trivial automorphism group, see:
Is an automorphism of the field of real numbers the identity map?
So my question is, given an abelian group made into an $mathbbR$ vector space, is this the only way we can do this?
We would get another structure if we can embed $mathbbR$ into itself, but I'm not sure if this is possible.
If not, then of all the different $mathbbR$ structures, must they all have the same dimension?
I know that both of these are not true for general fields.
Thanks in advance.
(Related: number of differents vector space structures over the same field $mathbbF$ on an abelian group)
vector-spaces field-theory modules
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We know that any $mathbbZ$ module structure on an abelian group is unique, and furthermore the same is true for $mathbbQ$.
Any complex vector space structure is not unique, we can just compose with an automorphism of $mathbbC$ (for example the conjugation map).
However, $mathbbR$ has trivial automorphism group, see:
Is an automorphism of the field of real numbers the identity map?
So my question is, given an abelian group made into an $mathbbR$ vector space, is this the only way we can do this?
We would get another structure if we can embed $mathbbR$ into itself, but I'm not sure if this is possible.
If not, then of all the different $mathbbR$ structures, must they all have the same dimension?
I know that both of these are not true for general fields.
Thanks in advance.
(Related: number of differents vector space structures over the same field $mathbbF$ on an abelian group)
vector-spaces field-theory modules
$endgroup$
We know that any $mathbbZ$ module structure on an abelian group is unique, and furthermore the same is true for $mathbbQ$.
Any complex vector space structure is not unique, we can just compose with an automorphism of $mathbbC$ (for example the conjugation map).
However, $mathbbR$ has trivial automorphism group, see:
Is an automorphism of the field of real numbers the identity map?
So my question is, given an abelian group made into an $mathbbR$ vector space, is this the only way we can do this?
We would get another structure if we can embed $mathbbR$ into itself, but I'm not sure if this is possible.
If not, then of all the different $mathbbR$ structures, must they all have the same dimension?
I know that both of these are not true for general fields.
Thanks in advance.
(Related: number of differents vector space structures over the same field $mathbbF$ on an abelian group)
vector-spaces field-theory modules
vector-spaces field-theory modules
asked 8 hours ago
JamesJames
1479 bronze badges
1479 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
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oldest
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$begingroup$
Sure. Note that instead of using an automorphism of $mathbbR$, you can use an automorphism of the abelian group. Given $mathbbR$-vector spaces $V$ and $W$ any abelian group isomorphism $f:Vto W$, you can define a new $mathbbR$-vector space structure on $V$ with scalar multiplication $mathbbRtimes Vto V$ given by $(r,v)mapsto f^-1(rf(v))$. This will not be the same as the original scalar multiplication on $V$ unless $f$ is $mathbbR$-linear.
In particular, as an abelian group, an $mathbbR$-vector space $V$ of dimension $n$ is just a $mathbbQ$-vector space of dimension $ncdot 2^aleph_0$. If $n>0$, this gives loads of automorphisms of $V$ that are not $mathbbR$-linear (for instance, for any nonzero $vin V$ and any irrational $alphainmathbbR$, $v$ and $alpha v$ are linearly independent over $mathbbQ$ so there is an automorphism that exchanges $v$ and $alpha v$, and this cannot be $mathbbR$-linear), and thus loads of isomorphic but distinct $mathbbR$-vector space structures on $V$. Or, if $0<n,m leq 2^aleph_0$, then $ncdot 2^aleph_0=mcdot 2^aleph_0=2^aleph_0$, so $V$ is actually isomorphic as an abelian group to any $mathbbR$-vector space $W$ of dimension $m$, and so $V$ can also be given an $mathbbR$-vector space structure of dimension $m$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Excellent, thanks! :)
$endgroup$
– James
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$BbbR$ and $BbbR^2$ are isomorphic as abelian groups but not as real vector spaces.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, and are of different $mathbbR$ dimension.
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can non-trivially embed the real field into itself. This is because every field extension has a transcendence basis.
So let $S ⊆ ℝ$ be a transcendence basis for $ℝ/ℚ$. Let $F = ℚ(S)$. Then $ℝ/F$ is an algebraic extension. Now every map $S → S$ naturally extends to a field morphism $F → F$ and then to a field morphism $ℝ → ℝ$.
Since $S$ is uncountable, this yields uncountably many field morphisms $ℝ → ℝ$, all of which give rise to different $ℝ$-linear structures on the abelian group $ℝ$ itself.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. What about, instead of $mathbbR$, we take our field to be F, where F has no transcendence basis? I presume this must happen for some fields like $mathbbQ$. Must then the structure be unique or the dimension unique?
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is wrong, a morphism $Fto F$ does not necessarily extend to a morphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Indeed, any ring homomorphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$ is the identity, even if you do not require surjectivity. If you look at the answers at math.stackexchange.com/questions/449404/…, none of them actually require the map to be surjective.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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active
oldest
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
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votes
$begingroup$
Sure. Note that instead of using an automorphism of $mathbbR$, you can use an automorphism of the abelian group. Given $mathbbR$-vector spaces $V$ and $W$ any abelian group isomorphism $f:Vto W$, you can define a new $mathbbR$-vector space structure on $V$ with scalar multiplication $mathbbRtimes Vto V$ given by $(r,v)mapsto f^-1(rf(v))$. This will not be the same as the original scalar multiplication on $V$ unless $f$ is $mathbbR$-linear.
In particular, as an abelian group, an $mathbbR$-vector space $V$ of dimension $n$ is just a $mathbbQ$-vector space of dimension $ncdot 2^aleph_0$. If $n>0$, this gives loads of automorphisms of $V$ that are not $mathbbR$-linear (for instance, for any nonzero $vin V$ and any irrational $alphainmathbbR$, $v$ and $alpha v$ are linearly independent over $mathbbQ$ so there is an automorphism that exchanges $v$ and $alpha v$, and this cannot be $mathbbR$-linear), and thus loads of isomorphic but distinct $mathbbR$-vector space structures on $V$. Or, if $0<n,m leq 2^aleph_0$, then $ncdot 2^aleph_0=mcdot 2^aleph_0=2^aleph_0$, so $V$ is actually isomorphic as an abelian group to any $mathbbR$-vector space $W$ of dimension $m$, and so $V$ can also be given an $mathbbR$-vector space structure of dimension $m$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Excellent, thanks! :)
$endgroup$
– James
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Sure. Note that instead of using an automorphism of $mathbbR$, you can use an automorphism of the abelian group. Given $mathbbR$-vector spaces $V$ and $W$ any abelian group isomorphism $f:Vto W$, you can define a new $mathbbR$-vector space structure on $V$ with scalar multiplication $mathbbRtimes Vto V$ given by $(r,v)mapsto f^-1(rf(v))$. This will not be the same as the original scalar multiplication on $V$ unless $f$ is $mathbbR$-linear.
In particular, as an abelian group, an $mathbbR$-vector space $V$ of dimension $n$ is just a $mathbbQ$-vector space of dimension $ncdot 2^aleph_0$. If $n>0$, this gives loads of automorphisms of $V$ that are not $mathbbR$-linear (for instance, for any nonzero $vin V$ and any irrational $alphainmathbbR$, $v$ and $alpha v$ are linearly independent over $mathbbQ$ so there is an automorphism that exchanges $v$ and $alpha v$, and this cannot be $mathbbR$-linear), and thus loads of isomorphic but distinct $mathbbR$-vector space structures on $V$. Or, if $0<n,m leq 2^aleph_0$, then $ncdot 2^aleph_0=mcdot 2^aleph_0=2^aleph_0$, so $V$ is actually isomorphic as an abelian group to any $mathbbR$-vector space $W$ of dimension $m$, and so $V$ can also be given an $mathbbR$-vector space structure of dimension $m$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Excellent, thanks! :)
$endgroup$
– James
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Sure. Note that instead of using an automorphism of $mathbbR$, you can use an automorphism of the abelian group. Given $mathbbR$-vector spaces $V$ and $W$ any abelian group isomorphism $f:Vto W$, you can define a new $mathbbR$-vector space structure on $V$ with scalar multiplication $mathbbRtimes Vto V$ given by $(r,v)mapsto f^-1(rf(v))$. This will not be the same as the original scalar multiplication on $V$ unless $f$ is $mathbbR$-linear.
In particular, as an abelian group, an $mathbbR$-vector space $V$ of dimension $n$ is just a $mathbbQ$-vector space of dimension $ncdot 2^aleph_0$. If $n>0$, this gives loads of automorphisms of $V$ that are not $mathbbR$-linear (for instance, for any nonzero $vin V$ and any irrational $alphainmathbbR$, $v$ and $alpha v$ are linearly independent over $mathbbQ$ so there is an automorphism that exchanges $v$ and $alpha v$, and this cannot be $mathbbR$-linear), and thus loads of isomorphic but distinct $mathbbR$-vector space structures on $V$. Or, if $0<n,m leq 2^aleph_0$, then $ncdot 2^aleph_0=mcdot 2^aleph_0=2^aleph_0$, so $V$ is actually isomorphic as an abelian group to any $mathbbR$-vector space $W$ of dimension $m$, and so $V$ can also be given an $mathbbR$-vector space structure of dimension $m$.
$endgroup$
Sure. Note that instead of using an automorphism of $mathbbR$, you can use an automorphism of the abelian group. Given $mathbbR$-vector spaces $V$ and $W$ any abelian group isomorphism $f:Vto W$, you can define a new $mathbbR$-vector space structure on $V$ with scalar multiplication $mathbbRtimes Vto V$ given by $(r,v)mapsto f^-1(rf(v))$. This will not be the same as the original scalar multiplication on $V$ unless $f$ is $mathbbR$-linear.
In particular, as an abelian group, an $mathbbR$-vector space $V$ of dimension $n$ is just a $mathbbQ$-vector space of dimension $ncdot 2^aleph_0$. If $n>0$, this gives loads of automorphisms of $V$ that are not $mathbbR$-linear (for instance, for any nonzero $vin V$ and any irrational $alphainmathbbR$, $v$ and $alpha v$ are linearly independent over $mathbbQ$ so there is an automorphism that exchanges $v$ and $alpha v$, and this cannot be $mathbbR$-linear), and thus loads of isomorphic but distinct $mathbbR$-vector space structures on $V$. Or, if $0<n,m leq 2^aleph_0$, then $ncdot 2^aleph_0=mcdot 2^aleph_0=2^aleph_0$, so $V$ is actually isomorphic as an abelian group to any $mathbbR$-vector space $W$ of dimension $m$, and so $V$ can also be given an $mathbbR$-vector space structure of dimension $m$.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Eric WofseyEric Wofsey
203k14 gold badges235 silver badges368 bronze badges
203k14 gold badges235 silver badges368 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Excellent, thanks! :)
$endgroup$
– James
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Excellent, thanks! :)
$endgroup$
– James
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Excellent, thanks! :)
$endgroup$
– James
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Excellent, thanks! :)
$endgroup$
– James
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$BbbR$ and $BbbR^2$ are isomorphic as abelian groups but not as real vector spaces.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, and are of different $mathbbR$ dimension.
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$BbbR$ and $BbbR^2$ are isomorphic as abelian groups but not as real vector spaces.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, and are of different $mathbbR$ dimension.
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$BbbR$ and $BbbR^2$ are isomorphic as abelian groups but not as real vector spaces.
$endgroup$
$BbbR$ and $BbbR^2$ are isomorphic as abelian groups but not as real vector spaces.
answered 8 hours ago
Rob ArthanRob Arthan
30.1k4 gold badges29 silver badges69 bronze badges
30.1k4 gold badges29 silver badges69 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Thanks, and are of different $mathbbR$ dimension.
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks, and are of different $mathbbR$ dimension.
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks, and are of different $mathbbR$ dimension.
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks, and are of different $mathbbR$ dimension.
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can non-trivially embed the real field into itself. This is because every field extension has a transcendence basis.
So let $S ⊆ ℝ$ be a transcendence basis for $ℝ/ℚ$. Let $F = ℚ(S)$. Then $ℝ/F$ is an algebraic extension. Now every map $S → S$ naturally extends to a field morphism $F → F$ and then to a field morphism $ℝ → ℝ$.
Since $S$ is uncountable, this yields uncountably many field morphisms $ℝ → ℝ$, all of which give rise to different $ℝ$-linear structures on the abelian group $ℝ$ itself.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. What about, instead of $mathbbR$, we take our field to be F, where F has no transcendence basis? I presume this must happen for some fields like $mathbbQ$. Must then the structure be unique or the dimension unique?
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is wrong, a morphism $Fto F$ does not necessarily extend to a morphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Indeed, any ring homomorphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$ is the identity, even if you do not require surjectivity. If you look at the answers at math.stackexchange.com/questions/449404/…, none of them actually require the map to be surjective.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can non-trivially embed the real field into itself. This is because every field extension has a transcendence basis.
So let $S ⊆ ℝ$ be a transcendence basis for $ℝ/ℚ$. Let $F = ℚ(S)$. Then $ℝ/F$ is an algebraic extension. Now every map $S → S$ naturally extends to a field morphism $F → F$ and then to a field morphism $ℝ → ℝ$.
Since $S$ is uncountable, this yields uncountably many field morphisms $ℝ → ℝ$, all of which give rise to different $ℝ$-linear structures on the abelian group $ℝ$ itself.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. What about, instead of $mathbbR$, we take our field to be F, where F has no transcendence basis? I presume this must happen for some fields like $mathbbQ$. Must then the structure be unique or the dimension unique?
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is wrong, a morphism $Fto F$ does not necessarily extend to a morphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Indeed, any ring homomorphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$ is the identity, even if you do not require surjectivity. If you look at the answers at math.stackexchange.com/questions/449404/…, none of them actually require the map to be surjective.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can non-trivially embed the real field into itself. This is because every field extension has a transcendence basis.
So let $S ⊆ ℝ$ be a transcendence basis for $ℝ/ℚ$. Let $F = ℚ(S)$. Then $ℝ/F$ is an algebraic extension. Now every map $S → S$ naturally extends to a field morphism $F → F$ and then to a field morphism $ℝ → ℝ$.
Since $S$ is uncountable, this yields uncountably many field morphisms $ℝ → ℝ$, all of which give rise to different $ℝ$-linear structures on the abelian group $ℝ$ itself.
$endgroup$
You can non-trivially embed the real field into itself. This is because every field extension has a transcendence basis.
So let $S ⊆ ℝ$ be a transcendence basis for $ℝ/ℚ$. Let $F = ℚ(S)$. Then $ℝ/F$ is an algebraic extension. Now every map $S → S$ naturally extends to a field morphism $F → F$ and then to a field morphism $ℝ → ℝ$.
Since $S$ is uncountable, this yields uncountably many field morphisms $ℝ → ℝ$, all of which give rise to different $ℝ$-linear structures on the abelian group $ℝ$ itself.
answered 8 hours ago
k.stmk.stm
11.4k3 gold badges23 silver badges50 bronze badges
11.4k3 gold badges23 silver badges50 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Thanks. What about, instead of $mathbbR$, we take our field to be F, where F has no transcendence basis? I presume this must happen for some fields like $mathbbQ$. Must then the structure be unique or the dimension unique?
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is wrong, a morphism $Fto F$ does not necessarily extend to a morphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Indeed, any ring homomorphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$ is the identity, even if you do not require surjectivity. If you look at the answers at math.stackexchange.com/questions/449404/…, none of them actually require the map to be surjective.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks. What about, instead of $mathbbR$, we take our field to be F, where F has no transcendence basis? I presume this must happen for some fields like $mathbbQ$. Must then the structure be unique or the dimension unique?
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is wrong, a morphism $Fto F$ does not necessarily extend to a morphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Indeed, any ring homomorphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$ is the identity, even if you do not require surjectivity. If you look at the answers at math.stackexchange.com/questions/449404/…, none of them actually require the map to be surjective.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks. What about, instead of $mathbbR$, we take our field to be F, where F has no transcendence basis? I presume this must happen for some fields like $mathbbQ$. Must then the structure be unique or the dimension unique?
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks. What about, instead of $mathbbR$, we take our field to be F, where F has no transcendence basis? I presume this must happen for some fields like $mathbbQ$. Must then the structure be unique or the dimension unique?
$endgroup$
– James
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is wrong, a morphism $Fto F$ does not necessarily extend to a morphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is wrong, a morphism $Fto F$ does not necessarily extend to a morphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Indeed, any ring homomorphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$ is the identity, even if you do not require surjectivity. If you look at the answers at math.stackexchange.com/questions/449404/…, none of them actually require the map to be surjective.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Indeed, any ring homomorphism $mathbbRtomathbbR$ is the identity, even if you do not require surjectivity. If you look at the answers at math.stackexchange.com/questions/449404/…, none of them actually require the map to be surjective.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago
add a comment |
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