Confused about proofs by contradiction, the Law of the Excluded Middle and existence of consistent axiomatic systems.Why is establishing absolute consistency of ZFC impossible?Absoluteness of $ textCon(mathsfZFC) $ for Transitive Models of $ mathsfZFC $.Contraposition and law of excluded middleHow is the law of excluded middle necessary for proofs by contradiction?Is there any case where classical logic has “proven” an incorrect result?Systems without the law of excluded middleWill assuming an undecidable statement result in a consistent system?Trying to understand self-reference as it relates to Godel's Second Incompleteness TheoremShowing propositional logic is consistentHow can a formal system ever be non-obviously unsound?Propositional calculus and intuitionist logic
To customize a predefined symbol with different colors
Is it cheaper to drop cargo than to land it?
Are we obligated to aspire to be Talmidei Chachamim?
How to explain the behaviour of TreeForm?
How do I tell my manager that his code review comment is wrong?
When and why did journal article titles become descriptive, rather than creatively allusive?
CRT Oscilloscope - part of the plot is missing
Does this article imply that Turing-Computability is not the same as "effectively computable"?
What is the most remote airport from the center of the city it supposedly serves?
Is a life-stealing melee cantrip unbalanced?
A non-technological, repeating, phenomenon in the sky, holding its position in the sky for hours
What are the spoon bit of a spoon and fork bit of a fork called?
How to improve/restore vintage Peugeot bike, or is it even worth it?
How did Arya get her dagger back from Sansa?
If Earth is tilted, why is Polaris always above the same spot?
Junior developer struggles: how to communicate with management?
In Avengers 1, why does Thanos need Loki?
Is one octave above tonic also considered as tonic?
Returning the outputs of a nested structure
What does this colon mean? It is not labeling, it is not ternary operator
Enumerate Derangements
Do I have to make someone coauthor if he/she solves a problem in StackExchange, asked by myself, which is later used in my paper?
Identifying my late father's D&D stuff found in the attic
Why do money exchangers give different rates to different bills?
Confused about proofs by contradiction, the Law of the Excluded Middle and existence of consistent axiomatic systems.
Why is establishing absolute consistency of ZFC impossible?Absoluteness of $ textCon(mathsfZFC) $ for Transitive Models of $ mathsfZFC $.Contraposition and law of excluded middleHow is the law of excluded middle necessary for proofs by contradiction?Is there any case where classical logic has “proven” an incorrect result?Systems without the law of excluded middleWill assuming an undecidable statement result in a consistent system?Trying to understand self-reference as it relates to Godel's Second Incompleteness TheoremShowing propositional logic is consistentHow can a formal system ever be non-obviously unsound?Propositional calculus and intuitionist logic
$begingroup$
I apologize if my question is too dumb. I'm not particularly educated in this area of Mathematics.
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false, and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$ must be true. Such line of reasoning seems to be using the Law of the Excluded Middle, that is, $P lor neg P$ is a tautology.
Wouldn't assuming said law lead to some problems. As an example, it has been proven that if ZFC is consistent, then both ZFC$+$CH and ZFC$+neg$CH are also consistent. Thus, by LEM, there are only two possible options:
1) CH is true, but unprovable within ZFC.
2) $neg$CH is true, but unprovable within ZFC.
Suppose for a second that the first option was correct. Since $neg$ CH is consistent with ZFC, the axiomatic system ZFC$+ neg$CH contains no contradictions. However CH being true does imply that ZFC$+ neg$CH has a contradiction. The second option being true leads to the same result.
What am I missing?
I would truly appreciate any help/thoughts.
logic soft-question
$endgroup$
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
I apologize if my question is too dumb. I'm not particularly educated in this area of Mathematics.
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false, and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$ must be true. Such line of reasoning seems to be using the Law of the Excluded Middle, that is, $P lor neg P$ is a tautology.
Wouldn't assuming said law lead to some problems. As an example, it has been proven that if ZFC is consistent, then both ZFC$+$CH and ZFC$+neg$CH are also consistent. Thus, by LEM, there are only two possible options:
1) CH is true, but unprovable within ZFC.
2) $neg$CH is true, but unprovable within ZFC.
Suppose for a second that the first option was correct. Since $neg$ CH is consistent with ZFC, the axiomatic system ZFC$+ neg$CH contains no contradictions. However CH being true does imply that ZFC$+ neg$CH has a contradiction. The second option being true leads to the same result.
What am I missing?
I would truly appreciate any help/thoughts.
logic soft-question
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
It doesn't make sense to say CH is true in ZFC. CH is true in some models of ZFC, and it's false in other models of ZFC. (Assuming there are any models of ZFC...)
$endgroup$
– Derek Elkins
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
what do you exactly mean by "true in ZFC"?
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have in the title a very broad subject, and the body of your Question narrows this only in a fairly confused way. How would you define "CH is true in ZFC"? It might be more productive to begin your investigations on grounds where you have a clear understanding, rather than by combining several topics that are muddled.
$endgroup$
– hardmath
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I meant to say that 'CH is true along the axioms of ZFC'. I'll edit my question. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the correct terminology.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You may be interesting in reading this question and an excellent response: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1746563/…
$endgroup$
– Vasya
2 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
I apologize if my question is too dumb. I'm not particularly educated in this area of Mathematics.
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false, and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$ must be true. Such line of reasoning seems to be using the Law of the Excluded Middle, that is, $P lor neg P$ is a tautology.
Wouldn't assuming said law lead to some problems. As an example, it has been proven that if ZFC is consistent, then both ZFC$+$CH and ZFC$+neg$CH are also consistent. Thus, by LEM, there are only two possible options:
1) CH is true, but unprovable within ZFC.
2) $neg$CH is true, but unprovable within ZFC.
Suppose for a second that the first option was correct. Since $neg$ CH is consistent with ZFC, the axiomatic system ZFC$+ neg$CH contains no contradictions. However CH being true does imply that ZFC$+ neg$CH has a contradiction. The second option being true leads to the same result.
What am I missing?
I would truly appreciate any help/thoughts.
logic soft-question
$endgroup$
I apologize if my question is too dumb. I'm not particularly educated in this area of Mathematics.
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false, and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$ must be true. Such line of reasoning seems to be using the Law of the Excluded Middle, that is, $P lor neg P$ is a tautology.
Wouldn't assuming said law lead to some problems. As an example, it has been proven that if ZFC is consistent, then both ZFC$+$CH and ZFC$+neg$CH are also consistent. Thus, by LEM, there are only two possible options:
1) CH is true, but unprovable within ZFC.
2) $neg$CH is true, but unprovable within ZFC.
Suppose for a second that the first option was correct. Since $neg$ CH is consistent with ZFC, the axiomatic system ZFC$+ neg$CH contains no contradictions. However CH being true does imply that ZFC$+ neg$CH has a contradiction. The second option being true leads to the same result.
What am I missing?
I would truly appreciate any help/thoughts.
logic soft-question
logic soft-question
edited 2 hours ago
Leo
asked 2 hours ago
LeoLeo
818517
818517
1
$begingroup$
It doesn't make sense to say CH is true in ZFC. CH is true in some models of ZFC, and it's false in other models of ZFC. (Assuming there are any models of ZFC...)
$endgroup$
– Derek Elkins
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
what do you exactly mean by "true in ZFC"?
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have in the title a very broad subject, and the body of your Question narrows this only in a fairly confused way. How would you define "CH is true in ZFC"? It might be more productive to begin your investigations on grounds where you have a clear understanding, rather than by combining several topics that are muddled.
$endgroup$
– hardmath
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I meant to say that 'CH is true along the axioms of ZFC'. I'll edit my question. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the correct terminology.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You may be interesting in reading this question and an excellent response: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1746563/…
$endgroup$
– Vasya
2 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
1
$begingroup$
It doesn't make sense to say CH is true in ZFC. CH is true in some models of ZFC, and it's false in other models of ZFC. (Assuming there are any models of ZFC...)
$endgroup$
– Derek Elkins
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
what do you exactly mean by "true in ZFC"?
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have in the title a very broad subject, and the body of your Question narrows this only in a fairly confused way. How would you define "CH is true in ZFC"? It might be more productive to begin your investigations on grounds where you have a clear understanding, rather than by combining several topics that are muddled.
$endgroup$
– hardmath
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I meant to say that 'CH is true along the axioms of ZFC'. I'll edit my question. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the correct terminology.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You may be interesting in reading this question and an excellent response: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1746563/…
$endgroup$
– Vasya
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
It doesn't make sense to say CH is true in ZFC. CH is true in some models of ZFC, and it's false in other models of ZFC. (Assuming there are any models of ZFC...)
$endgroup$
– Derek Elkins
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It doesn't make sense to say CH is true in ZFC. CH is true in some models of ZFC, and it's false in other models of ZFC. (Assuming there are any models of ZFC...)
$endgroup$
– Derek Elkins
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
what do you exactly mean by "true in ZFC"?
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
what do you exactly mean by "true in ZFC"?
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have in the title a very broad subject, and the body of your Question narrows this only in a fairly confused way. How would you define "CH is true in ZFC"? It might be more productive to begin your investigations on grounds where you have a clear understanding, rather than by combining several topics that are muddled.
$endgroup$
– hardmath
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have in the title a very broad subject, and the body of your Question narrows this only in a fairly confused way. How would you define "CH is true in ZFC"? It might be more productive to begin your investigations on grounds where you have a clear understanding, rather than by combining several topics that are muddled.
$endgroup$
– hardmath
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I meant to say that 'CH is true along the axioms of ZFC'. I'll edit my question. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the correct terminology.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I meant to say that 'CH is true along the axioms of ZFC'. I'll edit my question. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the correct terminology.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You may be interesting in reading this question and an excellent response: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1746563/…
$endgroup$
– Vasya
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You may be interesting in reading this question and an excellent response: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1746563/…
$endgroup$
– Vasya
2 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Your confusion is in conflating the truth of a set of axioms with their consistency. I'll assume ZFC is consistent throughout this explanation (that's not known, but it's assumed in the undecidability result you stated).
Let $diamond p$ denote "$p$ is consistent" and $square p$ denote "$p$ is provable" viz. modal logic (I'm tweaking its concepts slightly for the present context). Also, let $c,,z$ respectively denote the CH and ZFC. From the law of the excluded middle $clorneg c$ we deduce $zto((zland c)lor(zlandneg c))$, and the undecidability of $c$ in $z$ means that $(diamond(zland c))land(diamond(zlandneg c))$. But these results are not inconsistent. In particular, $zland c$ does not imply $square(zland c)$, and hence does not contradict $diamond(zlandneg c)$.
In particular, a general instance of the law of the excluded middle, $plorneg p$, doesn't imply $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$. Similarly, the law of non-contradiction $neg(plandneg p)$ doesn't imply $neg((diamond p)land(diamond(neg p)))$.
Just to relate all this to something you said earlier:
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false,
and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$
must be true.
An intuitionistic logician, who rejects the law of the excluded middle, would instead say you assume some statement is true, reach a contradiction, and thus conclude the statement was false. In other words, $(qtobot)toneg q$. The case $q:=neg p$ gives $(neg ptobot)tonegneg p$, which if $p=negneg p$ simplifies to $(neg ptobot)to p$ as you intended. This simplification follows from the law of the excluded middle, but fails in intuitionistic logic. One way to understand this is that intuitionistic logic tracks provability rather than truth (this isn't necessarily how to read it, but it gives the right logical structure). In other words, $plorneg p$ fails in intuitionistic logic because $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$ fails in classical logic.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
So is it possible for $P land neg P$ to be true in a consistent axiomatic system? I'm saying this since you claim $z land c$ doesn't contradict $z land neg c$ being consistent.
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Oh wait. $z land neg c$ being consistent doesn't even imply $z land neg c$, right?
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Usually when it is said that a "sentence $s$ is true of some theory $T$" it is meant that $s$ is satisfied in some particular model of $T$ that is considered as a standard model of $T$, that is a model that most captures the informal concept the formal system is about.
To say that $s$ is true in $T$ does imply that $T + s$ is consistent! But it doesn't necessarily imply that $T + neg s $ is inconsistent at all. To say that $T + neg s$ is inconsistent is to say that $s$ is not satisfied in any model of $T$ and not just the standard one. The picture should be clear by now, since $s$ being satisfied in a particular model of $T$ doesn't at all imply that $neg s$ cannot be satisfied in another model of $T$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I guess I now have to study models. I'm not even sure what they are.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
well models are the semantic counterpart of the formal system. Yes, you need to study them, otherwise it would be difficult to understand this situation.
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3208738%2fconfused-about-proofs-by-contradiction-the-law-of-the-excluded-middle-and-exist%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Your confusion is in conflating the truth of a set of axioms with their consistency. I'll assume ZFC is consistent throughout this explanation (that's not known, but it's assumed in the undecidability result you stated).
Let $diamond p$ denote "$p$ is consistent" and $square p$ denote "$p$ is provable" viz. modal logic (I'm tweaking its concepts slightly for the present context). Also, let $c,,z$ respectively denote the CH and ZFC. From the law of the excluded middle $clorneg c$ we deduce $zto((zland c)lor(zlandneg c))$, and the undecidability of $c$ in $z$ means that $(diamond(zland c))land(diamond(zlandneg c))$. But these results are not inconsistent. In particular, $zland c$ does not imply $square(zland c)$, and hence does not contradict $diamond(zlandneg c)$.
In particular, a general instance of the law of the excluded middle, $plorneg p$, doesn't imply $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$. Similarly, the law of non-contradiction $neg(plandneg p)$ doesn't imply $neg((diamond p)land(diamond(neg p)))$.
Just to relate all this to something you said earlier:
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false,
and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$
must be true.
An intuitionistic logician, who rejects the law of the excluded middle, would instead say you assume some statement is true, reach a contradiction, and thus conclude the statement was false. In other words, $(qtobot)toneg q$. The case $q:=neg p$ gives $(neg ptobot)tonegneg p$, which if $p=negneg p$ simplifies to $(neg ptobot)to p$ as you intended. This simplification follows from the law of the excluded middle, but fails in intuitionistic logic. One way to understand this is that intuitionistic logic tracks provability rather than truth (this isn't necessarily how to read it, but it gives the right logical structure). In other words, $plorneg p$ fails in intuitionistic logic because $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$ fails in classical logic.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
So is it possible for $P land neg P$ to be true in a consistent axiomatic system? I'm saying this since you claim $z land c$ doesn't contradict $z land neg c$ being consistent.
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Oh wait. $z land neg c$ being consistent doesn't even imply $z land neg c$, right?
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your confusion is in conflating the truth of a set of axioms with their consistency. I'll assume ZFC is consistent throughout this explanation (that's not known, but it's assumed in the undecidability result you stated).
Let $diamond p$ denote "$p$ is consistent" and $square p$ denote "$p$ is provable" viz. modal logic (I'm tweaking its concepts slightly for the present context). Also, let $c,,z$ respectively denote the CH and ZFC. From the law of the excluded middle $clorneg c$ we deduce $zto((zland c)lor(zlandneg c))$, and the undecidability of $c$ in $z$ means that $(diamond(zland c))land(diamond(zlandneg c))$. But these results are not inconsistent. In particular, $zland c$ does not imply $square(zland c)$, and hence does not contradict $diamond(zlandneg c)$.
In particular, a general instance of the law of the excluded middle, $plorneg p$, doesn't imply $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$. Similarly, the law of non-contradiction $neg(plandneg p)$ doesn't imply $neg((diamond p)land(diamond(neg p)))$.
Just to relate all this to something you said earlier:
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false,
and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$
must be true.
An intuitionistic logician, who rejects the law of the excluded middle, would instead say you assume some statement is true, reach a contradiction, and thus conclude the statement was false. In other words, $(qtobot)toneg q$. The case $q:=neg p$ gives $(neg ptobot)tonegneg p$, which if $p=negneg p$ simplifies to $(neg ptobot)to p$ as you intended. This simplification follows from the law of the excluded middle, but fails in intuitionistic logic. One way to understand this is that intuitionistic logic tracks provability rather than truth (this isn't necessarily how to read it, but it gives the right logical structure). In other words, $plorneg p$ fails in intuitionistic logic because $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$ fails in classical logic.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
So is it possible for $P land neg P$ to be true in a consistent axiomatic system? I'm saying this since you claim $z land c$ doesn't contradict $z land neg c$ being consistent.
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Oh wait. $z land neg c$ being consistent doesn't even imply $z land neg c$, right?
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your confusion is in conflating the truth of a set of axioms with their consistency. I'll assume ZFC is consistent throughout this explanation (that's not known, but it's assumed in the undecidability result you stated).
Let $diamond p$ denote "$p$ is consistent" and $square p$ denote "$p$ is provable" viz. modal logic (I'm tweaking its concepts slightly for the present context). Also, let $c,,z$ respectively denote the CH and ZFC. From the law of the excluded middle $clorneg c$ we deduce $zto((zland c)lor(zlandneg c))$, and the undecidability of $c$ in $z$ means that $(diamond(zland c))land(diamond(zlandneg c))$. But these results are not inconsistent. In particular, $zland c$ does not imply $square(zland c)$, and hence does not contradict $diamond(zlandneg c)$.
In particular, a general instance of the law of the excluded middle, $plorneg p$, doesn't imply $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$. Similarly, the law of non-contradiction $neg(plandneg p)$ doesn't imply $neg((diamond p)land(diamond(neg p)))$.
Just to relate all this to something you said earlier:
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false,
and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$
must be true.
An intuitionistic logician, who rejects the law of the excluded middle, would instead say you assume some statement is true, reach a contradiction, and thus conclude the statement was false. In other words, $(qtobot)toneg q$. The case $q:=neg p$ gives $(neg ptobot)tonegneg p$, which if $p=negneg p$ simplifies to $(neg ptobot)to p$ as you intended. This simplification follows from the law of the excluded middle, but fails in intuitionistic logic. One way to understand this is that intuitionistic logic tracks provability rather than truth (this isn't necessarily how to read it, but it gives the right logical structure). In other words, $plorneg p$ fails in intuitionistic logic because $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$ fails in classical logic.
$endgroup$
Your confusion is in conflating the truth of a set of axioms with their consistency. I'll assume ZFC is consistent throughout this explanation (that's not known, but it's assumed in the undecidability result you stated).
Let $diamond p$ denote "$p$ is consistent" and $square p$ denote "$p$ is provable" viz. modal logic (I'm tweaking its concepts slightly for the present context). Also, let $c,,z$ respectively denote the CH and ZFC. From the law of the excluded middle $clorneg c$ we deduce $zto((zland c)lor(zlandneg c))$, and the undecidability of $c$ in $z$ means that $(diamond(zland c))land(diamond(zlandneg c))$. But these results are not inconsistent. In particular, $zland c$ does not imply $square(zland c)$, and hence does not contradict $diamond(zlandneg c)$.
In particular, a general instance of the law of the excluded middle, $plorneg p$, doesn't imply $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$. Similarly, the law of non-contradiction $neg(plandneg p)$ doesn't imply $neg((diamond p)land(diamond(neg p)))$.
Just to relate all this to something you said earlier:
Proof by contradiction consists of assuming a statement $P$ is false,
and then reach a contradiction thus allowing us to conclude that $P$
must be true.
An intuitionistic logician, who rejects the law of the excluded middle, would instead say you assume some statement is true, reach a contradiction, and thus conclude the statement was false. In other words, $(qtobot)toneg q$. The case $q:=neg p$ gives $(neg ptobot)tonegneg p$, which if $p=negneg p$ simplifies to $(neg ptobot)to p$ as you intended. This simplification follows from the law of the excluded middle, but fails in intuitionistic logic. One way to understand this is that intuitionistic logic tracks provability rather than truth (this isn't necessarily how to read it, but it gives the right logical structure). In other words, $plorneg p$ fails in intuitionistic logic because $(square p)lor(square(neg p))$ fails in classical logic.
answered 2 hours ago
J.G.J.G.
35.1k23352
35.1k23352
$begingroup$
So is it possible for $P land neg P$ to be true in a consistent axiomatic system? I'm saying this since you claim $z land c$ doesn't contradict $z land neg c$ being consistent.
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Oh wait. $z land neg c$ being consistent doesn't even imply $z land neg c$, right?
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
So is it possible for $P land neg P$ to be true in a consistent axiomatic system? I'm saying this since you claim $z land c$ doesn't contradict $z land neg c$ being consistent.
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Oh wait. $z land neg c$ being consistent doesn't even imply $z land neg c$, right?
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
So is it possible for $P land neg P$ to be true in a consistent axiomatic system? I'm saying this since you claim $z land c$ doesn't contradict $z land neg c$ being consistent.
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
So is it possible for $P land neg P$ to be true in a consistent axiomatic system? I'm saying this since you claim $z land c$ doesn't contradict $z land neg c$ being consistent.
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Oh wait. $z land neg c$ being consistent doesn't even imply $z land neg c$, right?
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Oh wait. $z land neg c$ being consistent doesn't even imply $z land neg c$, right?
$endgroup$
– Leo
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Usually when it is said that a "sentence $s$ is true of some theory $T$" it is meant that $s$ is satisfied in some particular model of $T$ that is considered as a standard model of $T$, that is a model that most captures the informal concept the formal system is about.
To say that $s$ is true in $T$ does imply that $T + s$ is consistent! But it doesn't necessarily imply that $T + neg s $ is inconsistent at all. To say that $T + neg s$ is inconsistent is to say that $s$ is not satisfied in any model of $T$ and not just the standard one. The picture should be clear by now, since $s$ being satisfied in a particular model of $T$ doesn't at all imply that $neg s$ cannot be satisfied in another model of $T$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I guess I now have to study models. I'm not even sure what they are.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
well models are the semantic counterpart of the formal system. Yes, you need to study them, otherwise it would be difficult to understand this situation.
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Usually when it is said that a "sentence $s$ is true of some theory $T$" it is meant that $s$ is satisfied in some particular model of $T$ that is considered as a standard model of $T$, that is a model that most captures the informal concept the formal system is about.
To say that $s$ is true in $T$ does imply that $T + s$ is consistent! But it doesn't necessarily imply that $T + neg s $ is inconsistent at all. To say that $T + neg s$ is inconsistent is to say that $s$ is not satisfied in any model of $T$ and not just the standard one. The picture should be clear by now, since $s$ being satisfied in a particular model of $T$ doesn't at all imply that $neg s$ cannot be satisfied in another model of $T$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I guess I now have to study models. I'm not even sure what they are.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
well models are the semantic counterpart of the formal system. Yes, you need to study them, otherwise it would be difficult to understand this situation.
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Usually when it is said that a "sentence $s$ is true of some theory $T$" it is meant that $s$ is satisfied in some particular model of $T$ that is considered as a standard model of $T$, that is a model that most captures the informal concept the formal system is about.
To say that $s$ is true in $T$ does imply that $T + s$ is consistent! But it doesn't necessarily imply that $T + neg s $ is inconsistent at all. To say that $T + neg s$ is inconsistent is to say that $s$ is not satisfied in any model of $T$ and not just the standard one. The picture should be clear by now, since $s$ being satisfied in a particular model of $T$ doesn't at all imply that $neg s$ cannot be satisfied in another model of $T$.
$endgroup$
Usually when it is said that a "sentence $s$ is true of some theory $T$" it is meant that $s$ is satisfied in some particular model of $T$ that is considered as a standard model of $T$, that is a model that most captures the informal concept the formal system is about.
To say that $s$ is true in $T$ does imply that $T + s$ is consistent! But it doesn't necessarily imply that $T + neg s $ is inconsistent at all. To say that $T + neg s$ is inconsistent is to say that $s$ is not satisfied in any model of $T$ and not just the standard one. The picture should be clear by now, since $s$ being satisfied in a particular model of $T$ doesn't at all imply that $neg s$ cannot be satisfied in another model of $T$.
answered 2 hours ago
ZuhairZuhair
400212
400212
$begingroup$
I guess I now have to study models. I'm not even sure what they are.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
well models are the semantic counterpart of the formal system. Yes, you need to study them, otherwise it would be difficult to understand this situation.
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I guess I now have to study models. I'm not even sure what they are.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
well models are the semantic counterpart of the formal system. Yes, you need to study them, otherwise it would be difficult to understand this situation.
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I guess I now have to study models. I'm not even sure what they are.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I guess I now have to study models. I'm not even sure what they are.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
well models are the semantic counterpart of the formal system. Yes, you need to study them, otherwise it would be difficult to understand this situation.
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
well models are the semantic counterpart of the formal system. Yes, you need to study them, otherwise it would be difficult to understand this situation.
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3208738%2fconfused-about-proofs-by-contradiction-the-law-of-the-excluded-middle-and-exist%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
$begingroup$
It doesn't make sense to say CH is true in ZFC. CH is true in some models of ZFC, and it's false in other models of ZFC. (Assuming there are any models of ZFC...)
$endgroup$
– Derek Elkins
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
what do you exactly mean by "true in ZFC"?
$endgroup$
– Zuhair
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have in the title a very broad subject, and the body of your Question narrows this only in a fairly confused way. How would you define "CH is true in ZFC"? It might be more productive to begin your investigations on grounds where you have a clear understanding, rather than by combining several topics that are muddled.
$endgroup$
– hardmath
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I meant to say that 'CH is true along the axioms of ZFC'. I'll edit my question. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the correct terminology.
$endgroup$
– Leo
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You may be interesting in reading this question and an excellent response: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1746563/…
$endgroup$
– Vasya
2 hours ago