Why does English employ double possessive pronouns such as theirs and ours?Why is it usually “friend of his”, but no possessive apostrophe with “friend of Peter”?Difference between “yours” and “your”?Odd possessive form of a proper name: Why does Dryden write “Lord Nonsuch his” instead of “Lord Nonsuch’s” but “Bibber’s” instead of “Bibber his”?Why does “today’s lesson” seem to be possessive?When did “our” stop being used as an adjective (as in “other our dominions”, “any our Subjects”)?
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Why does English employ double possessive pronouns such as theirs and ours?
Why is it usually “friend of his”, but no possessive apostrophe with “friend of Peter”?Difference between “yours” and “your”?Odd possessive form of a proper name: Why does Dryden write “Lord Nonsuch his” instead of “Lord Nonsuch’s” but “Bibber’s” instead of “Bibber his”?Why does “today’s lesson” seem to be possessive?When did “our” stop being used as an adjective (as in “other our dominions”, “any our Subjects”)?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;
I am a native speaker of AmE. I understand when and where to use their vs theirs, etc. etc. (i.e. Don't migrate this to ELL!). I've searched the site and google, and I have not quite seen an answer to my question.
Etymonline describes the word theirs as:
possessive pronoun, "their own," early 14c., from their + possessive -s, on analogy of his, etc. In form, a double possessive.
And, their:
plural possessive pronoun, c. 1200, from Old Norse þierra "of them," genitive of plural personal and demonstrative pronoun þeir "they" (see they). Replaced Old English hiera. As an adjective from late 14c. Use with singular objects, scorned by grammarians, is attested from c. 1300, and OED quotes this in Fielding, Goldsmith, Sydney Smith, and Thackeray. Theirs (c. 1300) is a double possessive. Alternative form theirn (1836) is attested in Midlands and southern dialect in U.K. and the Ozarks region of the U.S. Emphasis mine
(Parenthetical question, what do they mean by use with singular objects in this case?)
The entires for our and ours are similar.
Why does English have a double possessive pronoun? And why does modifying it thusly change its usage? Singular-plural possessive pronoun - possessive adjective; double-plural possessive pronoun - possessive pronoun?
Theirs is used when there is not a following noun, but, I don't understand why a double possessive would be used in this way.
The book is theirs.
That is their book.
We cannot say:
The book is their.
nor
That is theirs book.
But, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why making it a double possessive would make this happen!
possessives
asked 8 hours ago
David MDavid M
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
|
show 12 more comments
I am a native speaker of AmE. I understand when and where to use their vs theirs, etc. etc. (i.e. Don't migrate this to ELL!). I've searched the site and google, and I have not quite seen an answer to my question.
Etymonline describes the word theirs as:
possessive pronoun, "their own," early 14c., from their + possessive -s, on analogy of his, etc. In form, a double possessive.
And, their:
plural possessive pronoun, c. 1200, from Old Norse þierra "of them," genitive of plural personal and demonstrative pronoun þeir "they" (see they). Replaced Old English hiera. As an adjective from late 14c. Use with singular objects, scorned by grammarians, is attested from c. 1300, and OED quotes this in Fielding, Goldsmith, Sydney Smith, and Thackeray. Theirs (c. 1300) is a double possessive. Alternative form theirn (1836) is attested in Midlands and southern dialect in U.K. and the Ozarks region of the U.S. Emphasis mine
(Parenthetical question, what do they mean by use with singular objects in this case?)
The entires for our and ours are similar.
Why does English have a double possessive pronoun? And why does modifying it thusly change its usage? Singular-plural possessive pronoun - possessive adjective; double-plural possessive pronoun - possessive pronoun?
Theirs is used when there is not a following noun, but, I don't understand why a double possessive would be used in this way.
The book is theirs.
That is their book.
We cannot say:
The book is their.
nor
That is theirs book.
But, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why making it a double possessive would make this happen!
possessives
asked 8 hours ago
David MDavid M
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
2
Nothing does. Pieces of grammar like pronouns get misshapen in the gears as they go around, billions of times a day, year after year. You can't "explain" why one pronoun takes one form and a different one takes another, any more than you can "explain" why two fish have different sizes. Variation is the norm in evolution; it's consistency that's suspicious.
– John Lawler
8 hours ago
1
@JohnLawler Perhaps I'm just seeking order in the universe.
– David M
8 hours ago
2
Because pronouns don't behave like nouns?
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
2
Incidentally, theirs and ours aren't "double possessive pronouns". They're possessive pronouns, period. Our and their are the adjective form, but they take -s as pronouns. This is true for all personal pronouns except my and thy, which take -n from the old pre-vocalic variants mine and thine (like the eyes you should drink to me only with). The -s isn't possessive any more than the -n is. It's just a different paradigm.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
1
As for following rules, it's the same as anything else. It doesn't follow simple rules, but when you look close enough you see patterns. But language rules are complicated by the fact that our culture doesn't look at language clearly. We think it's all letters and words, so sounds and constituents don't get noticed; but language rules work only for sounds and constituents, so it's kind of like trying to paint without noticing color.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
I am a native speaker of AmE. I understand when and where to use their vs theirs, etc. etc. (i.e. Don't migrate this to ELL!). I've searched the site and google, and I have not quite seen an answer to my question.
Etymonline describes the word theirs as:
possessive pronoun, "their own," early 14c., from their + possessive -s, on analogy of his, etc. In form, a double possessive.
And, their:
plural possessive pronoun, c. 1200, from Old Norse þierra "of them," genitive of plural personal and demonstrative pronoun þeir "they" (see they). Replaced Old English hiera. As an adjective from late 14c. Use with singular objects, scorned by grammarians, is attested from c. 1300, and OED quotes this in Fielding, Goldsmith, Sydney Smith, and Thackeray. Theirs (c. 1300) is a double possessive. Alternative form theirn (1836) is attested in Midlands and southern dialect in U.K. and the Ozarks region of the U.S. Emphasis mine
(Parenthetical question, what do they mean by use with singular objects in this case?)
The entires for our and ours are similar.
Why does English have a double possessive pronoun? And why does modifying it thusly change its usage? Singular-plural possessive pronoun - possessive adjective; double-plural possessive pronoun - possessive pronoun?
Theirs is used when there is not a following noun, but, I don't understand why a double possessive would be used in this way.
The book is theirs.
That is their book.
We cannot say:
The book is their.
nor
That is theirs book.
But, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why making it a double possessive would make this happen!
possessives
asked 8 hours ago
David MDavid M
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
I am a native speaker of AmE. I understand when and where to use their vs theirs, etc. etc. (i.e. Don't migrate this to ELL!). I've searched the site and google, and I have not quite seen an answer to my question.
Etymonline describes the word theirs as:
possessive pronoun, "their own," early 14c., from their + possessive -s, on analogy of his, etc. In form, a double possessive.
And, their:
plural possessive pronoun, c. 1200, from Old Norse þierra "of them," genitive of plural personal and demonstrative pronoun þeir "they" (see they). Replaced Old English hiera. As an adjective from late 14c. Use with singular objects, scorned by grammarians, is attested from c. 1300, and OED quotes this in Fielding, Goldsmith, Sydney Smith, and Thackeray. Theirs (c. 1300) is a double possessive. Alternative form theirn (1836) is attested in Midlands and southern dialect in U.K. and the Ozarks region of the U.S. Emphasis mine
(Parenthetical question, what do they mean by use with singular objects in this case?)
The entires for our and ours are similar.
Why does English have a double possessive pronoun? And why does modifying it thusly change its usage? Singular-plural possessive pronoun - possessive adjective; double-plural possessive pronoun - possessive pronoun?
Theirs is used when there is not a following noun, but, I don't understand why a double possessive would be used in this way.
The book is theirs.
That is their book.
We cannot say:
The book is their.
nor
That is theirs book.
But, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why making it a double possessive would make this happen!
possessives
possessives
asked 8 hours ago
David MDavid M
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
David MDavid M
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
edited 8 hours ago
David M
asked 8 hours ago
David MDavid M
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
David MDavid M
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
David MDavid M
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
17.6k8 gold badges57 silver badges109 bronze badges
2
Nothing does. Pieces of grammar like pronouns get misshapen in the gears as they go around, billions of times a day, year after year. You can't "explain" why one pronoun takes one form and a different one takes another, any more than you can "explain" why two fish have different sizes. Variation is the norm in evolution; it's consistency that's suspicious.
– John Lawler
8 hours ago
1
@JohnLawler Perhaps I'm just seeking order in the universe.
– David M
8 hours ago
2
Because pronouns don't behave like nouns?
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
2
Incidentally, theirs and ours aren't "double possessive pronouns". They're possessive pronouns, period. Our and their are the adjective form, but they take -s as pronouns. This is true for all personal pronouns except my and thy, which take -n from the old pre-vocalic variants mine and thine (like the eyes you should drink to me only with). The -s isn't possessive any more than the -n is. It's just a different paradigm.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
1
As for following rules, it's the same as anything else. It doesn't follow simple rules, but when you look close enough you see patterns. But language rules are complicated by the fact that our culture doesn't look at language clearly. We think it's all letters and words, so sounds and constituents don't get noticed; but language rules work only for sounds and constituents, so it's kind of like trying to paint without noticing color.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
2
Nothing does. Pieces of grammar like pronouns get misshapen in the gears as they go around, billions of times a day, year after year. You can't "explain" why one pronoun takes one form and a different one takes another, any more than you can "explain" why two fish have different sizes. Variation is the norm in evolution; it's consistency that's suspicious.
– John Lawler
8 hours ago
1
@JohnLawler Perhaps I'm just seeking order in the universe.
– David M
8 hours ago
2
Because pronouns don't behave like nouns?
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
2
Incidentally, theirs and ours aren't "double possessive pronouns". They're possessive pronouns, period. Our and their are the adjective form, but they take -s as pronouns. This is true for all personal pronouns except my and thy, which take -n from the old pre-vocalic variants mine and thine (like the eyes you should drink to me only with). The -s isn't possessive any more than the -n is. It's just a different paradigm.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
1
As for following rules, it's the same as anything else. It doesn't follow simple rules, but when you look close enough you see patterns. But language rules are complicated by the fact that our culture doesn't look at language clearly. We think it's all letters and words, so sounds and constituents don't get noticed; but language rules work only for sounds and constituents, so it's kind of like trying to paint without noticing color.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
2
2
Nothing does. Pieces of grammar like pronouns get misshapen in the gears as they go around, billions of times a day, year after year. You can't "explain" why one pronoun takes one form and a different one takes another, any more than you can "explain" why two fish have different sizes. Variation is the norm in evolution; it's consistency that's suspicious.
– John Lawler
8 hours ago
Nothing does. Pieces of grammar like pronouns get misshapen in the gears as they go around, billions of times a day, year after year. You can't "explain" why one pronoun takes one form and a different one takes another, any more than you can "explain" why two fish have different sizes. Variation is the norm in evolution; it's consistency that's suspicious.
– John Lawler
8 hours ago
1
1
@JohnLawler Perhaps I'm just seeking order in the universe.
– David M
8 hours ago
@JohnLawler Perhaps I'm just seeking order in the universe.
– David M
8 hours ago
2
2
Because pronouns don't behave like nouns?
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
Because pronouns don't behave like nouns?
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
2
2
Incidentally, theirs and ours aren't "double possessive pronouns". They're possessive pronouns, period. Our and their are the adjective form, but they take -s as pronouns. This is true for all personal pronouns except my and thy, which take -n from the old pre-vocalic variants mine and thine (like the eyes you should drink to me only with). The -s isn't possessive any more than the -n is. It's just a different paradigm.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
Incidentally, theirs and ours aren't "double possessive pronouns". They're possessive pronouns, period. Our and their are the adjective form, but they take -s as pronouns. This is true for all personal pronouns except my and thy, which take -n from the old pre-vocalic variants mine and thine (like the eyes you should drink to me only with). The -s isn't possessive any more than the -n is. It's just a different paradigm.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
1
1
As for following rules, it's the same as anything else. It doesn't follow simple rules, but when you look close enough you see patterns. But language rules are complicated by the fact that our culture doesn't look at language clearly. We think it's all letters and words, so sounds and constituents don't get noticed; but language rules work only for sounds and constituents, so it's kind of like trying to paint without noticing color.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
As for following rules, it's the same as anything else. It doesn't follow simple rules, but when you look close enough you see patterns. But language rules are complicated by the fact that our culture doesn't look at language clearly. We think it's all letters and words, so sounds and constituents don't get noticed; but language rules work only for sounds and constituents, so it's kind of like trying to paint without noticing color.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
I don't know why etymonline calls theirs 'a double possessive', but it's not.
The unfortunate terminology of 'the double possessive', aka 'the double genitive', is not due to the pronoun theirs itself but to the common construction like a friend of theirs where traditional grammar treats the preposition of as another possessive on top of the possessive pronoun theirs.
So in a construction that doesn't contain of, theirs itself is no double possessive:
The book is theirs.
This example of yours, for example, doesn't contain of, so there's only one possessive, the possessive pronoun theirs, which means their book. (Note the subject of the first clause does contain of, so you can call it a double possessive.)
Now, some grammarians don't like the term 'the double possessive/genitive' even for constructions like a friend of theirs.
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 468), for example, treats She's a friend of Kim's not as a double possessive/genitive but as a oblique genitive:
...we do not regard of as a genitive case marker, and hence there is only one genitive here, not two.
As for the distinction between their and theirs, CGEL classifies the former as a dependent genitive (possessive) and the latter as an independent genitive (possessive), which easily explains why these don't work:
*The book is their.
*That is theirs book.
answered 7 hours ago
JK2JK2
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
Thanks, that's actually quite helpful!
– David M
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
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I don't know why etymonline calls theirs 'a double possessive', but it's not.
The unfortunate terminology of 'the double possessive', aka 'the double genitive', is not due to the pronoun theirs itself but to the common construction like a friend of theirs where traditional grammar treats the preposition of as another possessive on top of the possessive pronoun theirs.
So in a construction that doesn't contain of, theirs itself is no double possessive:
The book is theirs.
This example of yours, for example, doesn't contain of, so there's only one possessive, the possessive pronoun theirs, which means their book. (Note the subject of the first clause does contain of, so you can call it a double possessive.)
Now, some grammarians don't like the term 'the double possessive/genitive' even for constructions like a friend of theirs.
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 468), for example, treats She's a friend of Kim's not as a double possessive/genitive but as a oblique genitive:
...we do not regard of as a genitive case marker, and hence there is only one genitive here, not two.
As for the distinction between their and theirs, CGEL classifies the former as a dependent genitive (possessive) and the latter as an independent genitive (possessive), which easily explains why these don't work:
*The book is their.
*That is theirs book.
answered 7 hours ago
JK2JK2
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
Thanks, that's actually quite helpful!
– David M
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
I don't know why etymonline calls theirs 'a double possessive', but it's not.
The unfortunate terminology of 'the double possessive', aka 'the double genitive', is not due to the pronoun theirs itself but to the common construction like a friend of theirs where traditional grammar treats the preposition of as another possessive on top of the possessive pronoun theirs.
So in a construction that doesn't contain of, theirs itself is no double possessive:
The book is theirs.
This example of yours, for example, doesn't contain of, so there's only one possessive, the possessive pronoun theirs, which means their book. (Note the subject of the first clause does contain of, so you can call it a double possessive.)
Now, some grammarians don't like the term 'the double possessive/genitive' even for constructions like a friend of theirs.
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 468), for example, treats She's a friend of Kim's not as a double possessive/genitive but as a oblique genitive:
...we do not regard of as a genitive case marker, and hence there is only one genitive here, not two.
As for the distinction between their and theirs, CGEL classifies the former as a dependent genitive (possessive) and the latter as an independent genitive (possessive), which easily explains why these don't work:
*The book is their.
*That is theirs book.
answered 7 hours ago
JK2JK2
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
Thanks, that's actually quite helpful!
– David M
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
I don't know why etymonline calls theirs 'a double possessive', but it's not.
The unfortunate terminology of 'the double possessive', aka 'the double genitive', is not due to the pronoun theirs itself but to the common construction like a friend of theirs where traditional grammar treats the preposition of as another possessive on top of the possessive pronoun theirs.
So in a construction that doesn't contain of, theirs itself is no double possessive:
The book is theirs.
This example of yours, for example, doesn't contain of, so there's only one possessive, the possessive pronoun theirs, which means their book. (Note the subject of the first clause does contain of, so you can call it a double possessive.)
Now, some grammarians don't like the term 'the double possessive/genitive' even for constructions like a friend of theirs.
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 468), for example, treats She's a friend of Kim's not as a double possessive/genitive but as a oblique genitive:
...we do not regard of as a genitive case marker, and hence there is only one genitive here, not two.
As for the distinction between their and theirs, CGEL classifies the former as a dependent genitive (possessive) and the latter as an independent genitive (possessive), which easily explains why these don't work:
*The book is their.
*That is theirs book.
answered 7 hours ago
JK2JK2
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
I don't know why etymonline calls theirs 'a double possessive', but it's not.
The unfortunate terminology of 'the double possessive', aka 'the double genitive', is not due to the pronoun theirs itself but to the common construction like a friend of theirs where traditional grammar treats the preposition of as another possessive on top of the possessive pronoun theirs.
So in a construction that doesn't contain of, theirs itself is no double possessive:
The book is theirs.
This example of yours, for example, doesn't contain of, so there's only one possessive, the possessive pronoun theirs, which means their book. (Note the subject of the first clause does contain of, so you can call it a double possessive.)
Now, some grammarians don't like the term 'the double possessive/genitive' even for constructions like a friend of theirs.
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 468), for example, treats She's a friend of Kim's not as a double possessive/genitive but as a oblique genitive:
...we do not regard of as a genitive case marker, and hence there is only one genitive here, not two.
As for the distinction between their and theirs, CGEL classifies the former as a dependent genitive (possessive) and the latter as an independent genitive (possessive), which easily explains why these don't work:
*The book is their.
*That is theirs book.
answered 7 hours ago
JK2JK2
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
JK2JK2
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
answered 7 hours ago
JK2JK2
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
answered 7 hours ago
JK2JK2
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
9262 gold badges23 silver badges63 bronze badges
Thanks, that's actually quite helpful!
– David M
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
Thanks, that's actually quite helpful!
– David M
7 hours ago
Thanks, that's actually quite helpful!
– David M
7 hours ago
Thanks, that's actually quite helpful!
– David M
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
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Nothing does. Pieces of grammar like pronouns get misshapen in the gears as they go around, billions of times a day, year after year. You can't "explain" why one pronoun takes one form and a different one takes another, any more than you can "explain" why two fish have different sizes. Variation is the norm in evolution; it's consistency that's suspicious.
– John Lawler
8 hours ago
1
@JohnLawler Perhaps I'm just seeking order in the universe.
– David M
8 hours ago
2
Because pronouns don't behave like nouns?
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
2
Incidentally, theirs and ours aren't "double possessive pronouns". They're possessive pronouns, period. Our and their are the adjective form, but they take -s as pronouns. This is true for all personal pronouns except my and thy, which take -n from the old pre-vocalic variants mine and thine (like the eyes you should drink to me only with). The -s isn't possessive any more than the -n is. It's just a different paradigm.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago
1
As for following rules, it's the same as anything else. It doesn't follow simple rules, but when you look close enough you see patterns. But language rules are complicated by the fact that our culture doesn't look at language clearly. We think it's all letters and words, so sounds and constituents don't get noticed; but language rules work only for sounds and constituents, so it's kind of like trying to paint without noticing color.
– John Lawler
7 hours ago