How can a “proper” function have a vertical slope?Is a function that has a vertical tangent line a function?How can a point of symmetry have a slope which isn't either $0$ or $±infty$?How do I find the tangent slope function of a reciprocal function?Does the definition of derivative exclude the possibility for discontinuous rate of change?$f(x) = x^2 - sin2x$ function, slope and degreesProof of tangent lines to a curveOn A Textbook's Explanation Of Derivatives And Limits
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How can a “proper” function have a vertical slope?
Is a function that has a vertical tangent line a function?How can a point of symmetry have a slope which isn't either $0$ or $±infty$?How do I find the tangent slope function of a reciprocal function?Does the definition of derivative exclude the possibility for discontinuous rate of change?$f(x) = x^2 - sin2x$ function, slope and degreesProof of tangent lines to a curveOn A Textbook's Explanation Of Derivatives And Limits
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$begingroup$
given the function $f(x)=x^1/3$ defined for any real number $x$ gives us:
This is a function, which means that for any given $x$ value, it maps to a single y value (and not more than one $y$ value, because that would mean it's not a function as it fails the vertical line test); and this function also has a vertical tangent at $x=0$.
My question is: how can we have a function that also has a vertical tangent? To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points, which means that we are not working with a "proper" function as it has multiple y values mapping to a single $x$. How is it possible for a "proper" function to have a vertical tangent?
*************EDIT***************************
As I understand, in the graph I pasted we cannot take the derivative of x=0 because the slope is vertical, hence we cannot see the instantaneous rate of change of x to y as the y value is not a value (or many values, which ever way you want to look at it). How is it possible to have a perfectly vertical slope on a function? In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?
calculus functions
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
given the function $f(x)=x^1/3$ defined for any real number $x$ gives us:
This is a function, which means that for any given $x$ value, it maps to a single y value (and not more than one $y$ value, because that would mean it's not a function as it fails the vertical line test); and this function also has a vertical tangent at $x=0$.
My question is: how can we have a function that also has a vertical tangent? To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points, which means that we are not working with a "proper" function as it has multiple y values mapping to a single $x$. How is it possible for a "proper" function to have a vertical tangent?
*************EDIT***************************
As I understand, in the graph I pasted we cannot take the derivative of x=0 because the slope is vertical, hence we cannot see the instantaneous rate of change of x to y as the y value is not a value (or many values, which ever way you want to look at it). How is it possible to have a perfectly vertical slope on a function? In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?
calculus functions
New contributor
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Funny that you mention this, because I recall, back in the day, being very upset with $f'(x)$ being the slope of the tangent line, since in most cases this so-called "tangent line" used to intersect the curve plenty of times, as opposed to just $1$.
$endgroup$
– Gae. S.
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?" What do you think the slope of the tangent line at that point should be?
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber What should it be? My thoughts were/are as follows: say one secant point is at (0,0) and another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). The points can get infinitely close, yet the slope of the secant line would never get vertical. So to answer your question - very steep but less than 90 degrees :-)... but obviously I am wrong, I just haven't conceptually grasped where my thinking is wrong
$endgroup$
– Mike
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
given the function $f(x)=x^1/3$ defined for any real number $x$ gives us:
This is a function, which means that for any given $x$ value, it maps to a single y value (and not more than one $y$ value, because that would mean it's not a function as it fails the vertical line test); and this function also has a vertical tangent at $x=0$.
My question is: how can we have a function that also has a vertical tangent? To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points, which means that we are not working with a "proper" function as it has multiple y values mapping to a single $x$. How is it possible for a "proper" function to have a vertical tangent?
*************EDIT***************************
As I understand, in the graph I pasted we cannot take the derivative of x=0 because the slope is vertical, hence we cannot see the instantaneous rate of change of x to y as the y value is not a value (or many values, which ever way you want to look at it). How is it possible to have a perfectly vertical slope on a function? In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?
calculus functions
New contributor
$endgroup$
given the function $f(x)=x^1/3$ defined for any real number $x$ gives us:
This is a function, which means that for any given $x$ value, it maps to a single y value (and not more than one $y$ value, because that would mean it's not a function as it fails the vertical line test); and this function also has a vertical tangent at $x=0$.
My question is: how can we have a function that also has a vertical tangent? To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points, which means that we are not working with a "proper" function as it has multiple y values mapping to a single $x$. How is it possible for a "proper" function to have a vertical tangent?
*************EDIT***************************
As I understand, in the graph I pasted we cannot take the derivative of x=0 because the slope is vertical, hence we cannot see the instantaneous rate of change of x to y as the y value is not a value (or many values, which ever way you want to look at it). How is it possible to have a perfectly vertical slope on a function? In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?
calculus functions
calculus functions
New contributor
New contributor
edited 9 hours ago
Mike
New contributor
asked 9 hours ago
MikeMike
1233 bronze badges
1233 bronze badges
New contributor
New contributor
$begingroup$
Funny that you mention this, because I recall, back in the day, being very upset with $f'(x)$ being the slope of the tangent line, since in most cases this so-called "tangent line" used to intersect the curve plenty of times, as opposed to just $1$.
$endgroup$
– Gae. S.
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?" What do you think the slope of the tangent line at that point should be?
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber What should it be? My thoughts were/are as follows: say one secant point is at (0,0) and another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). The points can get infinitely close, yet the slope of the secant line would never get vertical. So to answer your question - very steep but less than 90 degrees :-)... but obviously I am wrong, I just haven't conceptually grasped where my thinking is wrong
$endgroup$
– Mike
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Funny that you mention this, because I recall, back in the day, being very upset with $f'(x)$ being the slope of the tangent line, since in most cases this so-called "tangent line" used to intersect the curve plenty of times, as opposed to just $1$.
$endgroup$
– Gae. S.
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?" What do you think the slope of the tangent line at that point should be?
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber What should it be? My thoughts were/are as follows: say one secant point is at (0,0) and another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). The points can get infinitely close, yet the slope of the secant line would never get vertical. So to answer your question - very steep but less than 90 degrees :-)... but obviously I am wrong, I just haven't conceptually grasped where my thinking is wrong
$endgroup$
– Mike
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Funny that you mention this, because I recall, back in the day, being very upset with $f'(x)$ being the slope of the tangent line, since in most cases this so-called "tangent line" used to intersect the curve plenty of times, as opposed to just $1$.
$endgroup$
– Gae. S.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Funny that you mention this, because I recall, back in the day, being very upset with $f'(x)$ being the slope of the tangent line, since in most cases this so-called "tangent line" used to intersect the curve plenty of times, as opposed to just $1$.
$endgroup$
– Gae. S.
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
"In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?" What do you think the slope of the tangent line at that point should be?
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
"In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?" What do you think the slope of the tangent line at that point should be?
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber What should it be? My thoughts were/are as follows: say one secant point is at (0,0) and another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). The points can get infinitely close, yet the slope of the secant line would never get vertical. So to answer your question - very steep but less than 90 degrees :-)... but obviously I am wrong, I just haven't conceptually grasped where my thinking is wrong
$endgroup$
– Mike
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber What should it be? My thoughts were/are as follows: say one secant point is at (0,0) and another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). The points can get infinitely close, yet the slope of the secant line would never get vertical. So to answer your question - very steep but less than 90 degrees :-)... but obviously I am wrong, I just haven't conceptually grasped where my thinking is wrong
$endgroup$
– Mike
1 hour ago
add a comment
|
5 Answers
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$begingroup$
No, we don't need two vertical points. By the same idea, if the graph of a function $f$ has an horizontal tangent line somewhere, that there has to be two points of the graph of $f$ with the same $y$ coordinate. However, the tangnt at $0$ of $xmapsto x^3$ is horizontal, in spite of the fact that no two points of its graph have the same $y$ coordinate.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 - verticality is a total red herring here!
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TonyK Oh! Ha! I misread it. Nevermind!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Vertical tangent does not mean vertical graph. The function is still one- to -one. If you find its inverse function you see the inverse is one to one and has derivative equal zero so your function is also one to one even if tangent line is vertical.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The tangent line is simply an ideal picture of what you would expect to see if you zoom in around the point $p$.
That being said, the vertical tangent line to the graph $y = sqrt[3]x$ at $(0,0)$ says nothing more than that the graph would look steeper as you further zoom in around $(0, 0)$.
We can also learn several things from this geometric intuition.
The line is never required to pass through two distinct points. In fact, in many classical examples such as conic sections, tangent lines pass through a single point.
It is not essential for $f$ to be differentiable in order to discuss a tangent line to the graph of $f$, although it is a sufficient condition. In your example, differentiating the function $x mapsto sqrt[3]x$ fails to detect the tangent line at $(0,0)$ since it is not differentiable at this point. On the other hand, it perfectly makes sense to discuss vertical tangent line of the curve
$$ mathcalC = (x, sqrt[3]x) :x in mathbbR = (y^3, y) : y in mathbbR , $$
and indeed the line $x = 0$ is the tangent line of $mathcalC$ at $(0, 0)$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 The plot is great!
$endgroup$
– Barranka
29 mins ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points...
Herein lies the error in your assumptions. A tangent intersects a curve at the point of tangency in just one point.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A tangent line may intersect the graph at different points. An extreme example is when the graph itself is already a line, say $y = ax + b$. Then the tangent line at any point coincides the graph itself, hence uncountably many intersections. A less extreme example would be $y = cos(x)$. The tangent line to this graph at $(0,1)$ is exactly $y = 1$, and it intersects the graph at every $(2pi k, 1)$ for $k inmathbbZ$.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee I meant at the point of tangency. I'll include that now. Thank you for alerting me to this imprecision in language.
$endgroup$
– Allawonder
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
As you observed, $fracdydx$ is not defined at $(x,y) = (0,0).$
And there is no straight segment anywhere on the graph where the slope could be exactly measured by taking any two distinct points on that segment.
But those are not the only ways to define the slope of a curve.
One approach is to take a secant line between $(0,0)$ and a nearby point, and find the limit of the slope of that line as the distance goes to zero.
You can also take the angle between the $x$ axis and the secant line between two points on either side of $(0,0),$ taking a limit as the distance between those points goes to zero.
If the limit is defined (it is not for every curve) then it gives you the tangent line.
Another approach is to parameterize the curve: $x = u(t)$ and $y = v(t)$ where we let $t$ range over some (possibly infinite) interval of $mathbb R.$
Consider the vector $left(fracddtu(t), fracddtv(t)right).$
As long as that vector is not $(0,0)$ we can consider it to be in the same direction as the slope of the curve.
Now let $x = u(t) = t^3,$ $y = v(t) = t.$
Then the vector along the curve at $(x,y) = (0,0)$ is $(0,1),$ which points straight up, so the tangent line is vertical.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I understand the first part of what you wrote, and perhaps my question is poorly phrased. so let me elaborate. say one secant point is at (0,0) and I another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). How could we ever create a vertical line in this case (as the two secant points are never in a vertical line)?
$endgroup$
– Mike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's the same principle as how you take the derivative at other points on the curve. None of the individual secant lines is vertical, but the angle of the line with the $x$ axis goes to $fracpi2$ ($90$ degrees) in the limit.
$endgroup$
– David K
6 hours ago
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5 Answers
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5 Answers
5
active
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$begingroup$
No, we don't need two vertical points. By the same idea, if the graph of a function $f$ has an horizontal tangent line somewhere, that there has to be two points of the graph of $f$ with the same $y$ coordinate. However, the tangnt at $0$ of $xmapsto x^3$ is horizontal, in spite of the fact that no two points of its graph have the same $y$ coordinate.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 - verticality is a total red herring here!
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TonyK Oh! Ha! I misread it. Nevermind!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
No, we don't need two vertical points. By the same idea, if the graph of a function $f$ has an horizontal tangent line somewhere, that there has to be two points of the graph of $f$ with the same $y$ coordinate. However, the tangnt at $0$ of $xmapsto x^3$ is horizontal, in spite of the fact that no two points of its graph have the same $y$ coordinate.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 - verticality is a total red herring here!
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TonyK Oh! Ha! I misread it. Nevermind!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
No, we don't need two vertical points. By the same idea, if the graph of a function $f$ has an horizontal tangent line somewhere, that there has to be two points of the graph of $f$ with the same $y$ coordinate. However, the tangnt at $0$ of $xmapsto x^3$ is horizontal, in spite of the fact that no two points of its graph have the same $y$ coordinate.
$endgroup$
No, we don't need two vertical points. By the same idea, if the graph of a function $f$ has an horizontal tangent line somewhere, that there has to be two points of the graph of $f$ with the same $y$ coordinate. However, the tangnt at $0$ of $xmapsto x^3$ is horizontal, in spite of the fact that no two points of its graph have the same $y$ coordinate.
answered 9 hours ago
José Carlos SantosJosé Carlos Santos
219k26 gold badges168 silver badges293 bronze badges
219k26 gold badges168 silver badges293 bronze badges
$begingroup$
+1 - verticality is a total red herring here!
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TonyK Oh! Ha! I misread it. Nevermind!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
+1 - verticality is a total red herring here!
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TonyK Oh! Ha! I misread it. Nevermind!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 - verticality is a total red herring here!
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 - verticality is a total red herring here!
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TonyK Oh! Ha! I misread it. Nevermind!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TonyK Oh! Ha! I misread it. Nevermind!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Vertical tangent does not mean vertical graph. The function is still one- to -one. If you find its inverse function you see the inverse is one to one and has derivative equal zero so your function is also one to one even if tangent line is vertical.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Vertical tangent does not mean vertical graph. The function is still one- to -one. If you find its inverse function you see the inverse is one to one and has derivative equal zero so your function is also one to one even if tangent line is vertical.
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Vertical tangent does not mean vertical graph. The function is still one- to -one. If you find its inverse function you see the inverse is one to one and has derivative equal zero so your function is also one to one even if tangent line is vertical.
$endgroup$
Vertical tangent does not mean vertical graph. The function is still one- to -one. If you find its inverse function you see the inverse is one to one and has derivative equal zero so your function is also one to one even if tangent line is vertical.
answered 9 hours ago
Mohammad Riazi-KermaniMohammad Riazi-Kermani
54.5k4 gold badges27 silver badges74 bronze badges
54.5k4 gold badges27 silver badges74 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
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$begingroup$
The tangent line is simply an ideal picture of what you would expect to see if you zoom in around the point $p$.
That being said, the vertical tangent line to the graph $y = sqrt[3]x$ at $(0,0)$ says nothing more than that the graph would look steeper as you further zoom in around $(0, 0)$.
We can also learn several things from this geometric intuition.
The line is never required to pass through two distinct points. In fact, in many classical examples such as conic sections, tangent lines pass through a single point.
It is not essential for $f$ to be differentiable in order to discuss a tangent line to the graph of $f$, although it is a sufficient condition. In your example, differentiating the function $x mapsto sqrt[3]x$ fails to detect the tangent line at $(0,0)$ since it is not differentiable at this point. On the other hand, it perfectly makes sense to discuss vertical tangent line of the curve
$$ mathcalC = (x, sqrt[3]x) :x in mathbbR = (y^3, y) : y in mathbbR , $$
and indeed the line $x = 0$ is the tangent line of $mathcalC$ at $(0, 0)$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 The plot is great!
$endgroup$
– Barranka
29 mins ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The tangent line is simply an ideal picture of what you would expect to see if you zoom in around the point $p$.
That being said, the vertical tangent line to the graph $y = sqrt[3]x$ at $(0,0)$ says nothing more than that the graph would look steeper as you further zoom in around $(0, 0)$.
We can also learn several things from this geometric intuition.
The line is never required to pass through two distinct points. In fact, in many classical examples such as conic sections, tangent lines pass through a single point.
It is not essential for $f$ to be differentiable in order to discuss a tangent line to the graph of $f$, although it is a sufficient condition. In your example, differentiating the function $x mapsto sqrt[3]x$ fails to detect the tangent line at $(0,0)$ since it is not differentiable at this point. On the other hand, it perfectly makes sense to discuss vertical tangent line of the curve
$$ mathcalC = (x, sqrt[3]x) :x in mathbbR = (y^3, y) : y in mathbbR , $$
and indeed the line $x = 0$ is the tangent line of $mathcalC$ at $(0, 0)$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 The plot is great!
$endgroup$
– Barranka
29 mins ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The tangent line is simply an ideal picture of what you would expect to see if you zoom in around the point $p$.
That being said, the vertical tangent line to the graph $y = sqrt[3]x$ at $(0,0)$ says nothing more than that the graph would look steeper as you further zoom in around $(0, 0)$.
We can also learn several things from this geometric intuition.
The line is never required to pass through two distinct points. In fact, in many classical examples such as conic sections, tangent lines pass through a single point.
It is not essential for $f$ to be differentiable in order to discuss a tangent line to the graph of $f$, although it is a sufficient condition. In your example, differentiating the function $x mapsto sqrt[3]x$ fails to detect the tangent line at $(0,0)$ since it is not differentiable at this point. On the other hand, it perfectly makes sense to discuss vertical tangent line of the curve
$$ mathcalC = (x, sqrt[3]x) :x in mathbbR = (y^3, y) : y in mathbbR , $$
and indeed the line $x = 0$ is the tangent line of $mathcalC$ at $(0, 0)$.
$endgroup$
The tangent line is simply an ideal picture of what you would expect to see if you zoom in around the point $p$.
That being said, the vertical tangent line to the graph $y = sqrt[3]x$ at $(0,0)$ says nothing more than that the graph would look steeper as you further zoom in around $(0, 0)$.
We can also learn several things from this geometric intuition.
The line is never required to pass through two distinct points. In fact, in many classical examples such as conic sections, tangent lines pass through a single point.
It is not essential for $f$ to be differentiable in order to discuss a tangent line to the graph of $f$, although it is a sufficient condition. In your example, differentiating the function $x mapsto sqrt[3]x$ fails to detect the tangent line at $(0,0)$ since it is not differentiable at this point. On the other hand, it perfectly makes sense to discuss vertical tangent line of the curve
$$ mathcalC = (x, sqrt[3]x) :x in mathbbR = (y^3, y) : y in mathbbR , $$
and indeed the line $x = 0$ is the tangent line of $mathcalC$ at $(0, 0)$.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Sangchul LeeSangchul Lee
104k12 gold badges183 silver badges300 bronze badges
104k12 gold badges183 silver badges300 bronze badges
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+1 The plot is great!
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– Barranka
29 mins ago
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$begingroup$
+1 The plot is great!
$endgroup$
– Barranka
29 mins ago
$begingroup$
+1 The plot is great!
$endgroup$
– Barranka
29 mins ago
$begingroup$
+1 The plot is great!
$endgroup$
– Barranka
29 mins ago
add a comment
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To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points...
Herein lies the error in your assumptions. A tangent intersects a curve at the point of tangency in just one point.
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A tangent line may intersect the graph at different points. An extreme example is when the graph itself is already a line, say $y = ax + b$. Then the tangent line at any point coincides the graph itself, hence uncountably many intersections. A less extreme example would be $y = cos(x)$. The tangent line to this graph at $(0,1)$ is exactly $y = 1$, and it intersects the graph at every $(2pi k, 1)$ for $k inmathbbZ$.
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– Sangchul Lee
7 hours ago
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@SangchulLee I meant at the point of tangency. I'll include that now. Thank you for alerting me to this imprecision in language.
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– Allawonder
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points...
Herein lies the error in your assumptions. A tangent intersects a curve at the point of tangency in just one point.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A tangent line may intersect the graph at different points. An extreme example is when the graph itself is already a line, say $y = ax + b$. Then the tangent line at any point coincides the graph itself, hence uncountably many intersections. A less extreme example would be $y = cos(x)$. The tangent line to this graph at $(0,1)$ is exactly $y = 1$, and it intersects the graph at every $(2pi k, 1)$ for $k inmathbbZ$.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
7 hours ago
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@SangchulLee I meant at the point of tangency. I'll include that now. Thank you for alerting me to this imprecision in language.
$endgroup$
– Allawonder
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points...
Herein lies the error in your assumptions. A tangent intersects a curve at the point of tangency in just one point.
$endgroup$
To get a vertical tangent we need 2 vertical points...
Herein lies the error in your assumptions. A tangent intersects a curve at the point of tangency in just one point.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
AllawonderAllawonder
6,81710 silver badges19 bronze badges
6,81710 silver badges19 bronze badges
$begingroup$
A tangent line may intersect the graph at different points. An extreme example is when the graph itself is already a line, say $y = ax + b$. Then the tangent line at any point coincides the graph itself, hence uncountably many intersections. A less extreme example would be $y = cos(x)$. The tangent line to this graph at $(0,1)$ is exactly $y = 1$, and it intersects the graph at every $(2pi k, 1)$ for $k inmathbbZ$.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee I meant at the point of tangency. I'll include that now. Thank you for alerting me to this imprecision in language.
$endgroup$
– Allawonder
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
A tangent line may intersect the graph at different points. An extreme example is when the graph itself is already a line, say $y = ax + b$. Then the tangent line at any point coincides the graph itself, hence uncountably many intersections. A less extreme example would be $y = cos(x)$. The tangent line to this graph at $(0,1)$ is exactly $y = 1$, and it intersects the graph at every $(2pi k, 1)$ for $k inmathbbZ$.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee I meant at the point of tangency. I'll include that now. Thank you for alerting me to this imprecision in language.
$endgroup$
– Allawonder
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
A tangent line may intersect the graph at different points. An extreme example is when the graph itself is already a line, say $y = ax + b$. Then the tangent line at any point coincides the graph itself, hence uncountably many intersections. A less extreme example would be $y = cos(x)$. The tangent line to this graph at $(0,1)$ is exactly $y = 1$, and it intersects the graph at every $(2pi k, 1)$ for $k inmathbbZ$.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
A tangent line may intersect the graph at different points. An extreme example is when the graph itself is already a line, say $y = ax + b$. Then the tangent line at any point coincides the graph itself, hence uncountably many intersections. A less extreme example would be $y = cos(x)$. The tangent line to this graph at $(0,1)$ is exactly $y = 1$, and it intersects the graph at every $(2pi k, 1)$ for $k inmathbbZ$.
$endgroup$
– Sangchul Lee
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee I meant at the point of tangency. I'll include that now. Thank you for alerting me to this imprecision in language.
$endgroup$
– Allawonder
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SangchulLee I meant at the point of tangency. I'll include that now. Thank you for alerting me to this imprecision in language.
$endgroup$
– Allawonder
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
As you observed, $fracdydx$ is not defined at $(x,y) = (0,0).$
And there is no straight segment anywhere on the graph where the slope could be exactly measured by taking any two distinct points on that segment.
But those are not the only ways to define the slope of a curve.
One approach is to take a secant line between $(0,0)$ and a nearby point, and find the limit of the slope of that line as the distance goes to zero.
You can also take the angle between the $x$ axis and the secant line between two points on either side of $(0,0),$ taking a limit as the distance between those points goes to zero.
If the limit is defined (it is not for every curve) then it gives you the tangent line.
Another approach is to parameterize the curve: $x = u(t)$ and $y = v(t)$ where we let $t$ range over some (possibly infinite) interval of $mathbb R.$
Consider the vector $left(fracddtu(t), fracddtv(t)right).$
As long as that vector is not $(0,0)$ we can consider it to be in the same direction as the slope of the curve.
Now let $x = u(t) = t^3,$ $y = v(t) = t.$
Then the vector along the curve at $(x,y) = (0,0)$ is $(0,1),$ which points straight up, so the tangent line is vertical.
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I understand the first part of what you wrote, and perhaps my question is poorly phrased. so let me elaborate. say one secant point is at (0,0) and I another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). How could we ever create a vertical line in this case (as the two secant points are never in a vertical line)?
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– Mike
7 hours ago
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It's the same principle as how you take the derivative at other points on the curve. None of the individual secant lines is vertical, but the angle of the line with the $x$ axis goes to $fracpi2$ ($90$ degrees) in the limit.
$endgroup$
– David K
6 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
As you observed, $fracdydx$ is not defined at $(x,y) = (0,0).$
And there is no straight segment anywhere on the graph where the slope could be exactly measured by taking any two distinct points on that segment.
But those are not the only ways to define the slope of a curve.
One approach is to take a secant line between $(0,0)$ and a nearby point, and find the limit of the slope of that line as the distance goes to zero.
You can also take the angle between the $x$ axis and the secant line between two points on either side of $(0,0),$ taking a limit as the distance between those points goes to zero.
If the limit is defined (it is not for every curve) then it gives you the tangent line.
Another approach is to parameterize the curve: $x = u(t)$ and $y = v(t)$ where we let $t$ range over some (possibly infinite) interval of $mathbb R.$
Consider the vector $left(fracddtu(t), fracddtv(t)right).$
As long as that vector is not $(0,0)$ we can consider it to be in the same direction as the slope of the curve.
Now let $x = u(t) = t^3,$ $y = v(t) = t.$
Then the vector along the curve at $(x,y) = (0,0)$ is $(0,1),$ which points straight up, so the tangent line is vertical.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I understand the first part of what you wrote, and perhaps my question is poorly phrased. so let me elaborate. say one secant point is at (0,0) and I another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). How could we ever create a vertical line in this case (as the two secant points are never in a vertical line)?
$endgroup$
– Mike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's the same principle as how you take the derivative at other points on the curve. None of the individual secant lines is vertical, but the angle of the line with the $x$ axis goes to $fracpi2$ ($90$ degrees) in the limit.
$endgroup$
– David K
6 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
As you observed, $fracdydx$ is not defined at $(x,y) = (0,0).$
And there is no straight segment anywhere on the graph where the slope could be exactly measured by taking any two distinct points on that segment.
But those are not the only ways to define the slope of a curve.
One approach is to take a secant line between $(0,0)$ and a nearby point, and find the limit of the slope of that line as the distance goes to zero.
You can also take the angle between the $x$ axis and the secant line between two points on either side of $(0,0),$ taking a limit as the distance between those points goes to zero.
If the limit is defined (it is not for every curve) then it gives you the tangent line.
Another approach is to parameterize the curve: $x = u(t)$ and $y = v(t)$ where we let $t$ range over some (possibly infinite) interval of $mathbb R.$
Consider the vector $left(fracddtu(t), fracddtv(t)right).$
As long as that vector is not $(0,0)$ we can consider it to be in the same direction as the slope of the curve.
Now let $x = u(t) = t^3,$ $y = v(t) = t.$
Then the vector along the curve at $(x,y) = (0,0)$ is $(0,1),$ which points straight up, so the tangent line is vertical.
$endgroup$
As you observed, $fracdydx$ is not defined at $(x,y) = (0,0).$
And there is no straight segment anywhere on the graph where the slope could be exactly measured by taking any two distinct points on that segment.
But those are not the only ways to define the slope of a curve.
One approach is to take a secant line between $(0,0)$ and a nearby point, and find the limit of the slope of that line as the distance goes to zero.
You can also take the angle between the $x$ axis and the secant line between two points on either side of $(0,0),$ taking a limit as the distance between those points goes to zero.
If the limit is defined (it is not for every curve) then it gives you the tangent line.
Another approach is to parameterize the curve: $x = u(t)$ and $y = v(t)$ where we let $t$ range over some (possibly infinite) interval of $mathbb R.$
Consider the vector $left(fracddtu(t), fracddtv(t)right).$
As long as that vector is not $(0,0)$ we can consider it to be in the same direction as the slope of the curve.
Now let $x = u(t) = t^3,$ $y = v(t) = t.$
Then the vector along the curve at $(x,y) = (0,0)$ is $(0,1),$ which points straight up, so the tangent line is vertical.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
David KDavid K
60.7k4 gold badges48 silver badges137 bronze badges
60.7k4 gold badges48 silver badges137 bronze badges
$begingroup$
I understand the first part of what you wrote, and perhaps my question is poorly phrased. so let me elaborate. say one secant point is at (0,0) and I another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). How could we ever create a vertical line in this case (as the two secant points are never in a vertical line)?
$endgroup$
– Mike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's the same principle as how you take the derivative at other points on the curve. None of the individual secant lines is vertical, but the angle of the line with the $x$ axis goes to $fracpi2$ ($90$ degrees) in the limit.
$endgroup$
– David K
6 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
I understand the first part of what you wrote, and perhaps my question is poorly phrased. so let me elaborate. say one secant point is at (0,0) and I another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). How could we ever create a vertical line in this case (as the two secant points are never in a vertical line)?
$endgroup$
– Mike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's the same principle as how you take the derivative at other points on the curve. None of the individual secant lines is vertical, but the angle of the line with the $x$ axis goes to $fracpi2$ ($90$ degrees) in the limit.
$endgroup$
– David K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand the first part of what you wrote, and perhaps my question is poorly phrased. so let me elaborate. say one secant point is at (0,0) and I another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). How could we ever create a vertical line in this case (as the two secant points are never in a vertical line)?
$endgroup$
– Mike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I understand the first part of what you wrote, and perhaps my question is poorly phrased. so let me elaborate. say one secant point is at (0,0) and I another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). How could we ever create a vertical line in this case (as the two secant points are never in a vertical line)?
$endgroup$
– Mike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's the same principle as how you take the derivative at other points on the curve. None of the individual secant lines is vertical, but the angle of the line with the $x$ axis goes to $fracpi2$ ($90$ degrees) in the limit.
$endgroup$
– David K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's the same principle as how you take the derivative at other points on the curve. None of the individual secant lines is vertical, but the angle of the line with the $x$ axis goes to $fracpi2$ ($90$ degrees) in the limit.
$endgroup$
– David K
6 hours ago
add a comment
|
Mike is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Mike is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Mike is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Mike is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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$begingroup$
Funny that you mention this, because I recall, back in the day, being very upset with $f'(x)$ being the slope of the tangent line, since in most cases this so-called "tangent line" used to intersect the curve plenty of times, as opposed to just $1$.
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– Gae. S.
9 hours ago
1
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"In this case I can imagine a very steep curve at 0.... but vertical?!? I can't wrap my mind around it. How can we get a vertical slope on a non vertical function?" What do you think the slope of the tangent line at that point should be?
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– Noah Schweber
8 hours ago
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@NoahSchweber What should it be? My thoughts were/are as follows: say one secant point is at (0,0) and another point is moving closer and closer to it (from either side, doesn't matter). The points can get infinitely close, yet the slope of the secant line would never get vertical. So to answer your question - very steep but less than 90 degrees :-)... but obviously I am wrong, I just haven't conceptually grasped where my thinking is wrong
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– Mike
1 hour ago