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Is it possible for both sides of an encounter to be surprised?


What happens if a caster is surprised while casting a spell with a long casting time?Can a PC be surprised if he expects combat before the encounter?Should players get a surprise attack by interrupting a villain's speech?How does burrowing interact with surprise and attacks from hiding?In this scenario, how do I determine whether the enemies are surprised?What to do in Labyrinth Lord when both PCs and Foes are surprised?How often during combat can you be Surprised?False Appearance, Movement, Surprise, and the Unseen Attacker bonusShould there always be a check (stealth vs perception) before someone can be surprised?How can we model “acting first” in a hostile parley?Does surprise begin during the planning of an ambush?Does Dexterity Really Affect the Chance of Being Surprised in Gamma World 2eIf an attack alerts someone to your presence, can their initiative save them from being surprised in time?Does the UA alternative ranger's Ambuscade affect his possible surprise on the opponent?What to do when surprise and a high initiative roll conflict with the narrative?






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Is it possible for both sides of an encounter to be surprised and if so what would happen? This is a hypothetical idea I just came up with but it made me wonder what would happen. Would the surprise for all intents and purposes cancel each other out as nobody can act on their first turn or is there some other way for things to play out. If you can provide an example in your answer so I can better understand it.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




















    4












    $begingroup$


    Is it possible for both sides of an encounter to be surprised and if so what would happen? This is a hypothetical idea I just came up with but it made me wonder what would happen. Would the surprise for all intents and purposes cancel each other out as nobody can act on their first turn or is there some other way for things to play out. If you can provide an example in your answer so I can better understand it.










    share|improve this question









    $endgroup$
















      4












      4








      4





      $begingroup$


      Is it possible for both sides of an encounter to be surprised and if so what would happen? This is a hypothetical idea I just came up with but it made me wonder what would happen. Would the surprise for all intents and purposes cancel each other out as nobody can act on their first turn or is there some other way for things to play out. If you can provide an example in your answer so I can better understand it.










      share|improve this question









      $endgroup$




      Is it possible for both sides of an encounter to be surprised and if so what would happen? This is a hypothetical idea I just came up with but it made me wonder what would happen. Would the surprise for all intents and purposes cancel each other out as nobody can act on their first turn or is there some other way for things to play out. If you can provide an example in your answer so I can better understand it.







      dnd-5e combat encounters surprise






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      asked 8 hours ago









      Himitsu_no_YamiHimitsu_no_Yami

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          $begingroup$

          Surprise is very much up to the GM



          How does surprise work?



          The section on "The Order of Combat" states:




          COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP



          1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised [...]




          The section on "Surprise" states:




          The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.




          One could interpret this to mean that the only way to be surprised is when a creature makes a stealth check. Then, if their stealth check exceeds your passive perception and you don't notice their attack/threat, you are surprised.



          That said, in my opinion, stealth is an explanation of one way to determine surprise; ultimately the last sentence is the rule that a GM can apply when determining surprise, regardless of stealth checks:




          Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter




          For further evidence that this is the case see these answers: "How does burrowing interact with surprise and attacks from hiding?", "In this scenario, how do I determine whether the enemies are surprised?", and "Can a PC be surprised if he expects combat before the encounter?". For evidence to the contrary see the answer here "Should players get a surprise attack by interrupting a villain's speech?".



          Thus whether this happens is up to a GM and/or the stealthiness of the sides.



          Can both sides be surprised?



          Perhaps it is not possible for the entirety of two sides to be surprised, this would require both sides to view the other as a non-threat and yet wish to have combat happen regardless. What certainly is possible, is for all but one character to be surprised, such as if they initiate a combat where nobody expected was going to occur. Everybody would be surprised except the initiator.



          A possible way mentioned by user @Ryan Thompson is if one party triggered a trap and were teleported into a room where another party is not expecting their arrival.



          What happens if both sides are surprised, even if it may not be possible?



          If both sides somehow are surprised the following would apply to both sides:




          If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.




          Thus the first round of combat would be everybody not moving and not taking actions. Additionally reactions couldn't be made until after their turn had passed but as nobody is doing anything, they can't actually react to anything.



          Notable exceptions occur if only some of a certain group is surprised, perhaps one of them has the Alert feat, or is under the effects of the foresight spell. Another time this may matter is if there were casters who were in the middle of casting long casting time spells. The result in this specific scenario is debated in the question "What happens if a caster is surprised while casting a spell with a long casting time?"






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$






















            3














            $begingroup$

            No.



            An encounter does not start, initiative is not rolled, and surprise is not determined, until some combatant has reason to attempt to initiate it.



            For all combatants to be surprised, that must mean that no combatant has noticed a threat.

            And if no combatant has noticed a threat, why is initiative being rolled?




            There is an important distinction to be drawn between surprised - the english word describing an unexpected occurrance - and surprised - the game mechanic by which some combatants cannot act during the first round of an encounter.



            It is absolutely possible for everyone involved to be surprised, because they did not expect an encounter to be occurring. Such could happen when a party falls down a pit into the middle of a group of enemies - certainly the enemies are surprised to see adventurers so suddenly, and certainly the adventurers are surprised to land in the midst of a bunch of monsters, but it is not possible to claim that either side "did not notice a threat" - so neither side should be surprised when initiative is rolled.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$
















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              $begingroup$

              Surprise is very much up to the GM



              How does surprise work?



              The section on "The Order of Combat" states:




              COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP



              1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised [...]




              The section on "Surprise" states:




              The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.




              One could interpret this to mean that the only way to be surprised is when a creature makes a stealth check. Then, if their stealth check exceeds your passive perception and you don't notice their attack/threat, you are surprised.



              That said, in my opinion, stealth is an explanation of one way to determine surprise; ultimately the last sentence is the rule that a GM can apply when determining surprise, regardless of stealth checks:




              Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter




              For further evidence that this is the case see these answers: "How does burrowing interact with surprise and attacks from hiding?", "In this scenario, how do I determine whether the enemies are surprised?", and "Can a PC be surprised if he expects combat before the encounter?". For evidence to the contrary see the answer here "Should players get a surprise attack by interrupting a villain's speech?".



              Thus whether this happens is up to a GM and/or the stealthiness of the sides.



              Can both sides be surprised?



              Perhaps it is not possible for the entirety of two sides to be surprised, this would require both sides to view the other as a non-threat and yet wish to have combat happen regardless. What certainly is possible, is for all but one character to be surprised, such as if they initiate a combat where nobody expected was going to occur. Everybody would be surprised except the initiator.



              A possible way mentioned by user @Ryan Thompson is if one party triggered a trap and were teleported into a room where another party is not expecting their arrival.



              What happens if both sides are surprised, even if it may not be possible?



              If both sides somehow are surprised the following would apply to both sides:




              If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.




              Thus the first round of combat would be everybody not moving and not taking actions. Additionally reactions couldn't be made until after their turn had passed but as nobody is doing anything, they can't actually react to anything.



              Notable exceptions occur if only some of a certain group is surprised, perhaps one of them has the Alert feat, or is under the effects of the foresight spell. Another time this may matter is if there were casters who were in the middle of casting long casting time spells. The result in this specific scenario is debated in the question "What happens if a caster is surprised while casting a spell with a long casting time?"






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



















                6














                $begingroup$

                Surprise is very much up to the GM



                How does surprise work?



                The section on "The Order of Combat" states:




                COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP



                1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised [...]




                The section on "Surprise" states:




                The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.




                One could interpret this to mean that the only way to be surprised is when a creature makes a stealth check. Then, if their stealth check exceeds your passive perception and you don't notice their attack/threat, you are surprised.



                That said, in my opinion, stealth is an explanation of one way to determine surprise; ultimately the last sentence is the rule that a GM can apply when determining surprise, regardless of stealth checks:




                Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter




                For further evidence that this is the case see these answers: "How does burrowing interact with surprise and attacks from hiding?", "In this scenario, how do I determine whether the enemies are surprised?", and "Can a PC be surprised if he expects combat before the encounter?". For evidence to the contrary see the answer here "Should players get a surprise attack by interrupting a villain's speech?".



                Thus whether this happens is up to a GM and/or the stealthiness of the sides.



                Can both sides be surprised?



                Perhaps it is not possible for the entirety of two sides to be surprised, this would require both sides to view the other as a non-threat and yet wish to have combat happen regardless. What certainly is possible, is for all but one character to be surprised, such as if they initiate a combat where nobody expected was going to occur. Everybody would be surprised except the initiator.



                A possible way mentioned by user @Ryan Thompson is if one party triggered a trap and were teleported into a room where another party is not expecting their arrival.



                What happens if both sides are surprised, even if it may not be possible?



                If both sides somehow are surprised the following would apply to both sides:




                If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.




                Thus the first round of combat would be everybody not moving and not taking actions. Additionally reactions couldn't be made until after their turn had passed but as nobody is doing anything, they can't actually react to anything.



                Notable exceptions occur if only some of a certain group is surprised, perhaps one of them has the Alert feat, or is under the effects of the foresight spell. Another time this may matter is if there were casters who were in the middle of casting long casting time spells. The result in this specific scenario is debated in the question "What happens if a caster is surprised while casting a spell with a long casting time?"






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$

















                  6














                  6










                  6







                  $begingroup$

                  Surprise is very much up to the GM



                  How does surprise work?



                  The section on "The Order of Combat" states:




                  COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP



                  1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised [...]




                  The section on "Surprise" states:




                  The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.




                  One could interpret this to mean that the only way to be surprised is when a creature makes a stealth check. Then, if their stealth check exceeds your passive perception and you don't notice their attack/threat, you are surprised.



                  That said, in my opinion, stealth is an explanation of one way to determine surprise; ultimately the last sentence is the rule that a GM can apply when determining surprise, regardless of stealth checks:




                  Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter




                  For further evidence that this is the case see these answers: "How does burrowing interact with surprise and attacks from hiding?", "In this scenario, how do I determine whether the enemies are surprised?", and "Can a PC be surprised if he expects combat before the encounter?". For evidence to the contrary see the answer here "Should players get a surprise attack by interrupting a villain's speech?".



                  Thus whether this happens is up to a GM and/or the stealthiness of the sides.



                  Can both sides be surprised?



                  Perhaps it is not possible for the entirety of two sides to be surprised, this would require both sides to view the other as a non-threat and yet wish to have combat happen regardless. What certainly is possible, is for all but one character to be surprised, such as if they initiate a combat where nobody expected was going to occur. Everybody would be surprised except the initiator.



                  A possible way mentioned by user @Ryan Thompson is if one party triggered a trap and were teleported into a room where another party is not expecting their arrival.



                  What happens if both sides are surprised, even if it may not be possible?



                  If both sides somehow are surprised the following would apply to both sides:




                  If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.




                  Thus the first round of combat would be everybody not moving and not taking actions. Additionally reactions couldn't be made until after their turn had passed but as nobody is doing anything, they can't actually react to anything.



                  Notable exceptions occur if only some of a certain group is surprised, perhaps one of them has the Alert feat, or is under the effects of the foresight spell. Another time this may matter is if there were casters who were in the middle of casting long casting time spells. The result in this specific scenario is debated in the question "What happens if a caster is surprised while casting a spell with a long casting time?"






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Surprise is very much up to the GM



                  How does surprise work?



                  The section on "The Order of Combat" states:




                  COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP



                  1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised [...]




                  The section on "Surprise" states:




                  The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.




                  One could interpret this to mean that the only way to be surprised is when a creature makes a stealth check. Then, if their stealth check exceeds your passive perception and you don't notice their attack/threat, you are surprised.



                  That said, in my opinion, stealth is an explanation of one way to determine surprise; ultimately the last sentence is the rule that a GM can apply when determining surprise, regardless of stealth checks:




                  Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter




                  For further evidence that this is the case see these answers: "How does burrowing interact with surprise and attacks from hiding?", "In this scenario, how do I determine whether the enemies are surprised?", and "Can a PC be surprised if he expects combat before the encounter?". For evidence to the contrary see the answer here "Should players get a surprise attack by interrupting a villain's speech?".



                  Thus whether this happens is up to a GM and/or the stealthiness of the sides.



                  Can both sides be surprised?



                  Perhaps it is not possible for the entirety of two sides to be surprised, this would require both sides to view the other as a non-threat and yet wish to have combat happen regardless. What certainly is possible, is for all but one character to be surprised, such as if they initiate a combat where nobody expected was going to occur. Everybody would be surprised except the initiator.



                  A possible way mentioned by user @Ryan Thompson is if one party triggered a trap and were teleported into a room where another party is not expecting their arrival.



                  What happens if both sides are surprised, even if it may not be possible?



                  If both sides somehow are surprised the following would apply to both sides:




                  If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.




                  Thus the first round of combat would be everybody not moving and not taking actions. Additionally reactions couldn't be made until after their turn had passed but as nobody is doing anything, they can't actually react to anything.



                  Notable exceptions occur if only some of a certain group is surprised, perhaps one of them has the Alert feat, or is under the effects of the foresight spell. Another time this may matter is if there were casters who were in the middle of casting long casting time spells. The result in this specific scenario is debated in the question "What happens if a caster is surprised while casting a spell with a long casting time?"







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 2 hours ago

























                  answered 8 hours ago









                  Medix2Medix2

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                      3














                      $begingroup$

                      No.



                      An encounter does not start, initiative is not rolled, and surprise is not determined, until some combatant has reason to attempt to initiate it.



                      For all combatants to be surprised, that must mean that no combatant has noticed a threat.

                      And if no combatant has noticed a threat, why is initiative being rolled?




                      There is an important distinction to be drawn between surprised - the english word describing an unexpected occurrance - and surprised - the game mechanic by which some combatants cannot act during the first round of an encounter.



                      It is absolutely possible for everyone involved to be surprised, because they did not expect an encounter to be occurring. Such could happen when a party falls down a pit into the middle of a group of enemies - certainly the enemies are surprised to see adventurers so suddenly, and certainly the adventurers are surprised to land in the midst of a bunch of monsters, but it is not possible to claim that either side "did not notice a threat" - so neither side should be surprised when initiative is rolled.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



















                        3














                        $begingroup$

                        No.



                        An encounter does not start, initiative is not rolled, and surprise is not determined, until some combatant has reason to attempt to initiate it.



                        For all combatants to be surprised, that must mean that no combatant has noticed a threat.

                        And if no combatant has noticed a threat, why is initiative being rolled?




                        There is an important distinction to be drawn between surprised - the english word describing an unexpected occurrance - and surprised - the game mechanic by which some combatants cannot act during the first round of an encounter.



                        It is absolutely possible for everyone involved to be surprised, because they did not expect an encounter to be occurring. Such could happen when a party falls down a pit into the middle of a group of enemies - certainly the enemies are surprised to see adventurers so suddenly, and certainly the adventurers are surprised to land in the midst of a bunch of monsters, but it is not possible to claim that either side "did not notice a threat" - so neither side should be surprised when initiative is rolled.






                        share|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$

















                          3














                          3










                          3







                          $begingroup$

                          No.



                          An encounter does not start, initiative is not rolled, and surprise is not determined, until some combatant has reason to attempt to initiate it.



                          For all combatants to be surprised, that must mean that no combatant has noticed a threat.

                          And if no combatant has noticed a threat, why is initiative being rolled?




                          There is an important distinction to be drawn between surprised - the english word describing an unexpected occurrance - and surprised - the game mechanic by which some combatants cannot act during the first round of an encounter.



                          It is absolutely possible for everyone involved to be surprised, because they did not expect an encounter to be occurring. Such could happen when a party falls down a pit into the middle of a group of enemies - certainly the enemies are surprised to see adventurers so suddenly, and certainly the adventurers are surprised to land in the midst of a bunch of monsters, but it is not possible to claim that either side "did not notice a threat" - so neither side should be surprised when initiative is rolled.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$



                          No.



                          An encounter does not start, initiative is not rolled, and surprise is not determined, until some combatant has reason to attempt to initiate it.



                          For all combatants to be surprised, that must mean that no combatant has noticed a threat.

                          And if no combatant has noticed a threat, why is initiative being rolled?




                          There is an important distinction to be drawn between surprised - the english word describing an unexpected occurrance - and surprised - the game mechanic by which some combatants cannot act during the first round of an encounter.



                          It is absolutely possible for everyone involved to be surprised, because they did not expect an encounter to be occurring. Such could happen when a party falls down a pit into the middle of a group of enemies - certainly the enemies are surprised to see adventurers so suddenly, and certainly the adventurers are surprised to land in the midst of a bunch of monsters, but it is not possible to claim that either side "did not notice a threat" - so neither side should be surprised when initiative is rolled.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered 3 hours ago









                          SpeedkatSpeedkat

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                              Tom Holland Mục lục Đầu đời và giáo dục | Sự nghiệp | Cuộc sống cá nhân | Phim tham gia | Giải thưởng và đề cử | Chú thích | Liên kết ngoài | Trình đơn chuyển hướngProfile“Person Details for Thomas Stanley Holland, "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008" — FamilySearch.org”"Meet Tom Holland... the 16-year-old star of The Impossible""Schoolboy actor Tom Holland finds himself in Oscar contention for role in tsunami drama"“Naomi Watts on the Prince William and Harry's reaction to her film about the late Princess Diana”lưu trữ"Holland and Pflueger Are West End's Two New 'Billy Elliots'""I'm so envious of my son, the movie star! British writer Dominic Holland's spent 20 years trying to crack Hollywood - but he's been beaten to it by a very unlikely rival"“Richard and Margaret Povey of Jersey, Channel Islands, UK: Information about Thomas Stanley Holland”"Tom Holland to play Billy Elliot""New Billy Elliot leaving the garage"Billy Elliot the Musical - Tom Holland - Billy"A Tale of four Billys: Tom Holland""The Feel Good Factor""Thames Christian College schoolboys join Myleene Klass for The Feelgood Factor""Government launches £600,000 arts bursaries pilot""BILLY's Chapman, Holland, Gardner & Jackson-Keen Visit Prime Minister""Elton John 'blown away' by Billy Elliot fifth birthday" (video with John's interview and fragments of Holland's performance)"First News interviews Arrietty's Tom Holland"“33rd Critics' Circle Film Awards winners”“National Board of Review Current Awards”Bản gốc"Ron Howard Whaling Tale 'In The Heart Of The Sea' Casts Tom Holland"“'Spider-Man' Finds Tom Holland to Star as New Web-Slinger”lưu trữ“Captain America: Civil War (2016)”“Film Review: ‘Captain America: Civil War’”lưu trữ“‘Captain America: Civil War’ review: Choose your own avenger”lưu trữ“The Lost City of Z reviews”“Sony Pictures and Marvel Studios Find Their 'Spider-Man' Star and Director”“‘Mary Magdalene’, ‘Current War’ & ‘Wind River’ Get 2017 Release Dates From Weinstein”“Lionsgate Unleashing Daisy Ridley & Tom Holland Starrer ‘Chaos Walking’ In Cannes”“PTA's 'Master' Leads Chicago Film Critics Nominations, UPDATED: Houston and Indiana Critics Nominations”“Nominaciones Goya 2013 Telecinco Cinema – ENG”“Jameson Empire Film Awards: Martin Freeman wins best actor for performance in The Hobbit”“34th Annual Young Artist Awards”Bản gốc“Teen Choice Awards 2016—Captain America: Civil War Leads Second Wave of Nominations”“BAFTA Film Award Nominations: ‘La La Land’ Leads Race”“Saturn Awards Nominations 2017: 'Rogue One,' 'Walking Dead' Lead”Tom HollandTom HollandTom HollandTom Hollandmedia.gettyimages.comWorldCat Identities300279794no20130442900000 0004 0355 42791085670554170004732cb16706349t(data)XX5557367