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Is it good to engage in exceptional cases where it is permissible to do a typically forbidden action to which one has a taivah for

it is for forbidden to do something good for someone who does not acknowledge the good

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2

Billy is a violent and angry person and has a desire to kill and injure people to feel good. He has no outlet in polite society.

A Ben Soreh (rebellious son) case actually occurs in his town and as the verse says

"And all the men of his city shall pelt him to death with stones, and he shall die."

On one hand, Billy has an outlet to help kill this victim and he will have a kosher way to exercise his desire to kill.

On the other hand, Billy is indulging his desire. Some may say this makes his middos worse?

Is there a concern that Billy will develop worse middos if he participates in the execution?

mussar-ethics

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

Al Berko

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asked 8 hours ago

Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood

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• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Can we exchange Ben Su"M with a Shabbos transgressor, please, so we won't argue on whether it is fictional or real.
  
  – Al Berko
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  sefaria.org.il/Chullin.109b.12?lang=bi
  
  – Joel K
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Yibum when it's not lishmah is kind of like this
  
  – Heshy
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I think shabbos transgressors may be executed by witnesses or agents of the court but I know the laws for Ben Soreh or the Rebellious city are different.
  
  – Clint Eastwood
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Clint Al’s correct - Ben Sorer u’Moreh may or may not be real, but Chiyuvei Misas Beis Din who escaped can be killed by anyone.
  
  – DonielF
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

2

Billy is a violent and angry person and has a desire to kill and injure people to feel good. He has no outlet in polite society.

A Ben Soreh (rebellious son) case actually occurs in his town and as the verse says

"And all the men of his city shall pelt him to death with stones, and he shall die."

On one hand, Billy has an outlet to help kill this victim and he will have a kosher way to exercise his desire to kill.

On the other hand, Billy is indulging his desire. Some may say this makes his middos worse?

Is there a concern that Billy will develop worse middos if he participates in the execution?

mussar-ethics

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

Al Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood

4,02088 silver badges4040 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Can we exchange Ben Su"M with a Shabbos transgressor, please, so we won't argue on whether it is fictional or real.
  
  – Al Berko
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  sefaria.org.il/Chullin.109b.12?lang=bi
  
  – Joel K
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Yibum when it's not lishmah is kind of like this
  
  – Heshy
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  I think shabbos transgressors may be executed by witnesses or agents of the court but I know the laws for Ben Soreh or the Rebellious city are different.
  
  – Clint Eastwood
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Clint Al’s correct - Ben Sorer u’Moreh may or may not be real, but Chiyuvei Misas Beis Din who escaped can be killed by anyone.
  
  – DonielF
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

Billy is a violent and angry person and has a desire to kill and injure people to feel good. He has no outlet in polite society.

A Ben Soreh (rebellious son) case actually occurs in his town and as the verse says

"And all the men of his city shall pelt him to death with stones, and he shall die."

On one hand, Billy has an outlet to help kill this victim and he will have a kosher way to exercise his desire to kill.

On the other hand, Billy is indulging his desire. Some may say this makes his middos worse?

Is there a concern that Billy will develop worse middos if he participates in the execution?

mussar-ethics

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

Al Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood

4,02088 silver badges4040 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

Al Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood

4,02088 silver badges4040 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

Al Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood

4,02088 silver badges4040 bronze badges

edited 7 hours ago

Al Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

edited 7 hours ago

Al Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood

4,02088 silver badges4040 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood

4,02088 silver badges4040 bronze badges

2 Answers
2

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5

Shabbat156a

האי מאן דבמאדים יהי גבר אשיד דמא אמר רבי אשי אי אומנא אי גנבא אי טבחא אי מוהלא אמר רבה אנא במאדים הורי אמר אביי מר נמי עניש וקטיל

‘He who is born under Mars will be a shedder of blood. R. Ashi observed: Either a surgeon, a thief, a slaughterer, or a circumciser. Rabbah said: I was born under Mars. Abaye retorted: You too inflict punishment and kill.

(Soncino translation)

It sounds like you should channel your natural proclivities towards something permissible.

share|improve this answer

answered 4 hours ago

AlexAlex

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• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  +1 One famous Rabbi once used this gemara as an intro and said someone with the teva to be michalel shabbos should join hatzala:)
  
  – user6591
  3 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

2

I asked my Rabbi Z"L a similar question many years ago: assuming one's Middos are the tools that G-d provides, should one make use of it or overcome it, as we saw from Avraham's Akedah example.

The answer was that there are two levels of Avodas Hashem - on a lower level one makes use of the Middos - if he loves violence he could be a Shochet or an executor, as you mentioned. On a higher level, he should overcome "bad" Middos as G-d testifies for Avraham that was Middas Chesed on his last test "אתה ידעתי כי יראה א' אתה". He became "fearful" (or something). But that's much harder work.

share|improve this answer

answered 7 hours ago

Al BerkoAl Berko

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add a comment
 | 

5

Shabbat156a

האי מאן דבמאדים יהי גבר אשיד דמא אמר רבי אשי אי אומנא אי גנבא אי טבחא אי מוהלא אמר רבה אנא במאדים הורי אמר אביי מר נמי עניש וקטיל

‘He who is born under Mars will be a shedder of blood. R. Ashi observed: Either a surgeon, a thief, a slaughterer, or a circumciser. Rabbah said: I was born under Mars. Abaye retorted: You too inflict punishment and kill.

(Soncino translation)

It sounds like you should channel your natural proclivities towards something permissible.

share|improve this answer

answered 4 hours ago

AlexAlex

30.4k33 gold badges7676 silver badges158158 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  +1 One famous Rabbi once used this gemara as an intro and said someone with the teva to be michalel shabbos should join hatzala:)
  
  – user6591
  3 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

5

Shabbat156a

האי מאן דבמאדים יהי גבר אשיד דמא אמר רבי אשי אי אומנא אי גנבא אי טבחא אי מוהלא אמר רבה אנא במאדים הורי אמר אביי מר נמי עניש וקטיל

‘He who is born under Mars will be a shedder of blood. R. Ashi observed: Either a surgeon, a thief, a slaughterer, or a circumciser. Rabbah said: I was born under Mars. Abaye retorted: You too inflict punishment and kill.

(Soncino translation)

It sounds like you should channel your natural proclivities towards something permissible.

share|improve this answer

answered 4 hours ago

AlexAlex

30.4k33 gold badges7676 silver badges158158 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  +1 One famous Rabbi once used this gemara as an intro and said someone with the teva to be michalel shabbos should join hatzala:)
  
  – user6591
  3 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

Shabbat156a

האי מאן דבמאדים יהי גבר אשיד דמא אמר רבי אשי אי אומנא אי גנבא אי טבחא אי מוהלא אמר רבה אנא במאדים הורי אמר אביי מר נמי עניש וקטיל

‘He who is born under Mars will be a shedder of blood. R. Ashi observed: Either a surgeon, a thief, a slaughterer, or a circumciser. Rabbah said: I was born under Mars. Abaye retorted: You too inflict punishment and kill.

(Soncino translation)

It sounds like you should channel your natural proclivities towards something permissible.

share|improve this answer

answered 4 hours ago

AlexAlex

30.4k33 gold badges7676 silver badges158158 bronze badges

share|improve this answer

answered 4 hours ago

AlexAlex

30.4k33 gold badges7676 silver badges158158 bronze badges

answered 4 hours ago

AlexAlex

30.4k33 gold badges7676 silver badges158158 bronze badges

answered 4 hours ago

AlexAlex

30.4k33 gold badges7676 silver badges158158 bronze badges

2

I asked my Rabbi Z"L a similar question many years ago: assuming one's Middos are the tools that G-d provides, should one make use of it or overcome it, as we saw from Avraham's Akedah example.

The answer was that there are two levels of Avodas Hashem - on a lower level one makes use of the Middos - if he loves violence he could be a Shochet or an executor, as you mentioned. On a higher level, he should overcome "bad" Middos as G-d testifies for Avraham that was Middas Chesed on his last test "אתה ידעתי כי יראה א' אתה". He became "fearful" (or something). But that's much harder work.

share|improve this answer

answered 7 hours ago

Al BerkoAl Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

add a comment
 | 

2

I asked my Rabbi Z"L a similar question many years ago: assuming one's Middos are the tools that G-d provides, should one make use of it or overcome it, as we saw from Avraham's Akedah example.

The answer was that there are two levels of Avodas Hashem - on a lower level one makes use of the Middos - if he loves violence he could be a Shochet or an executor, as you mentioned. On a higher level, he should overcome "bad" Middos as G-d testifies for Avraham that was Middas Chesed on his last test "אתה ידעתי כי יראה א' אתה". He became "fearful" (or something). But that's much harder work.

share|improve this answer

answered 7 hours ago

Al BerkoAl Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

add a comment
 | 

I asked my Rabbi Z"L a similar question many years ago: assuming one's Middos are the tools that G-d provides, should one make use of it or overcome it, as we saw from Avraham's Akedah example.

The answer was that there are two levels of Avodas Hashem - on a lower level one makes use of the Middos - if he loves violence he could be a Shochet or an executor, as you mentioned. On a higher level, he should overcome "bad" Middos as G-d testifies for Avraham that was Middas Chesed on his last test "אתה ידעתי כי יראה א' אתה". He became "fearful" (or something). But that's much harder work.

share|improve this answer

answered 7 hours ago

Al BerkoAl Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

share|improve this answer

answered 7 hours ago

Al BerkoAl Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

answered 7 hours ago

Al BerkoAl Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges

answered 7 hours ago

Al BerkoAl Berko

9,75322 gold badges1010 silver badges3838 bronze badges