Does my opponent need to prove his creature has morph?Prateor's Grasp - Can Opponent Determine Taken Card Before ShuffleCan I “hide” a Vesuvan Shapeshifter?Commander status as hidden informationDo I need to reveal a face-down card if it is put on top of my library?Am I obligated to distinguish between morphs and megamorphs when I'm casting a card face-down?If I try to kill a face down creature, can my opponent save it by flipping it?I am really confused on how corpseweft works?Can cards turned face-down by Ixidron be turned face up again?Does a face-down creature with morph retain its damage when it is turned face up?Am I required to correct my opponent's assumptions about my morph creatures?

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Does my opponent need to prove his creature has morph?


Prateor's Grasp - Can Opponent Determine Taken Card Before ShuffleCan I “hide” a Vesuvan Shapeshifter?Commander status as hidden informationDo I need to reveal a face-down card if it is put on top of my library?Am I obligated to distinguish between morphs and megamorphs when I'm casting a card face-down?If I try to kill a face down creature, can my opponent save it by flipping it?I am really confused on how corpseweft works?Can cards turned face-down by Ixidron be turned face up again?Does a face-down creature with morph retain its damage when it is turned face up?Am I required to correct my opponent's assumptions about my morph creatures?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








7















I'm playing against an opponent who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to give away more information than they have to. (Perhaps they're trying to limit what is known about their strategy, their decklist, or their tells)



My opponent is one damage off lethal, but any creature will get him there. (Let's say I know he has a Might of the Masses in hand.) He plays a morph creature face down, swings (and casts his might of the Masses) and wins. Can I demand he prove the card had morph? Doing so gives me information in our next round that I shouldn't have, but it also proves that he didn't put just any card face down for 3



Is the only solution to get a judge involved? What if he already started scooping his cards back into his deck? Should I have asked a judge to verify that the facedown creature had morph before it resolved? If so, it seems unreasonable to call over a judge every time a morph creature is played. In this instance it's clear the creature was crucial in the moment, but in other cases the creature could have been on the field for several turns, and it didn't look so conspicuous when it was played.










share|improve this question






























    7















    I'm playing against an opponent who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to give away more information than they have to. (Perhaps they're trying to limit what is known about their strategy, their decklist, or their tells)



    My opponent is one damage off lethal, but any creature will get him there. (Let's say I know he has a Might of the Masses in hand.) He plays a morph creature face down, swings (and casts his might of the Masses) and wins. Can I demand he prove the card had morph? Doing so gives me information in our next round that I shouldn't have, but it also proves that he didn't put just any card face down for 3



    Is the only solution to get a judge involved? What if he already started scooping his cards back into his deck? Should I have asked a judge to verify that the facedown creature had morph before it resolved? If so, it seems unreasonable to call over a judge every time a morph creature is played. In this instance it's clear the creature was crucial in the moment, but in other cases the creature could have been on the field for several turns, and it didn't look so conspicuous when it was played.










    share|improve this question


























      7












      7








      7








      I'm playing against an opponent who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to give away more information than they have to. (Perhaps they're trying to limit what is known about their strategy, their decklist, or their tells)



      My opponent is one damage off lethal, but any creature will get him there. (Let's say I know he has a Might of the Masses in hand.) He plays a morph creature face down, swings (and casts his might of the Masses) and wins. Can I demand he prove the card had morph? Doing so gives me information in our next round that I shouldn't have, but it also proves that he didn't put just any card face down for 3



      Is the only solution to get a judge involved? What if he already started scooping his cards back into his deck? Should I have asked a judge to verify that the facedown creature had morph before it resolved? If so, it seems unreasonable to call over a judge every time a morph creature is played. In this instance it's clear the creature was crucial in the moment, but in other cases the creature could have been on the field for several turns, and it didn't look so conspicuous when it was played.










      share|improve this question














      I'm playing against an opponent who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to give away more information than they have to. (Perhaps they're trying to limit what is known about their strategy, their decklist, or their tells)



      My opponent is one damage off lethal, but any creature will get him there. (Let's say I know he has a Might of the Masses in hand.) He plays a morph creature face down, swings (and casts his might of the Masses) and wins. Can I demand he prove the card had morph? Doing so gives me information in our next round that I shouldn't have, but it also proves that he didn't put just any card face down for 3



      Is the only solution to get a judge involved? What if he already started scooping his cards back into his deck? Should I have asked a judge to verify that the facedown creature had morph before it resolved? If so, it seems unreasonable to call over a judge every time a morph creature is played. In this instance it's clear the creature was crucial in the moment, but in other cases the creature could have been on the field for several turns, and it didn't look so conspicuous when it was played.







      magic-the-gathering mtg-regular-rel






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











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      share|improve this question










      asked 9 hours ago









      AetherfoxAetherfox

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          2 Answers
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          11
















          Rule 707.9 says this:




          If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.




          There is no way for a game to end without one of these things happening to each face down permanent, so every face down permanent must be revealed one way or another by the end of the game.






          share|improve this answer

























          • Right, the player at some point will have to prove that the card does have morph, but doesn't do so when playing it. The proof comes at essentially the last opportunity - when the morphed permanent moves zones and stops being a morphed permanent, or when the game ends.

            – Nuclear Wang
            5 hours ago


















          6
















          Failing to reveal a face down creature with Morph at the end of the game is treated as a Game Loss.



          Per the MTG Infraction Procedure Guide:




          3.2. Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error



          Penalty



          Warning



          Definition



          A player commits an error in the game that cannot be corrected by only publicly available information. It is not a Hidden Card Error if the opponent acknowledges the action or controls the continuous effect modifying the game rule that was violated. This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both beforeand after the error.



          (...)



          Upgrade



          If a face-down card cast using a morph ability is discovered during the game to not have a morph ability, the penalty is a Game Loss. If the player has one or more cards with a morph ability in hand, has not added previously unknown cards to their hand since casting the card found in violation, and has discovered the error themselves, the upgrade does not apply and they may swap the card for a card with the morph ability in hand




          This is reinforced by rule 707.9 of the Magic Comprehensive rules.




          707.9. If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as theymove it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all playersas theymove it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.







          share|improve this answer



























          • That's an old version of the guide, the new version is: media.wpn.wizards.com/attachements/mtg_ipg_12jul19_en.pdf and the section you'd want to reference is 2.3 Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error

            – firedraco
            8 hours ago












          • @firedraco Fixed

            – DenisS
            8 hours ago






          • 1





            It seems a little weird to say that the comprehensive rules "reinforce" the IPG. The comprehensive rules are the core rules, and the IPG is about how to enforce the rules.

            – murgatroid99
            8 hours ago











          • Also, keep in mind that the question is tagged with "mtg-regular-rel", and Regular REL is a rules enforcement level the IPG doesn't apply to. Even more so, it doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic (which you didn't claim, but I'll add for completeness's sake).

            – TheThirdMan
            8 hours ago












          • Right, for regular REL, the document that applies is Judging at Regular REL instead of the IPG.

            – murgatroid99
            7 hours ago













          Your Answer








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          2 Answers
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          2 Answers
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          11
















          Rule 707.9 says this:




          If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.




          There is no way for a game to end without one of these things happening to each face down permanent, so every face down permanent must be revealed one way or another by the end of the game.






          share|improve this answer

























          • Right, the player at some point will have to prove that the card does have morph, but doesn't do so when playing it. The proof comes at essentially the last opportunity - when the morphed permanent moves zones and stops being a morphed permanent, or when the game ends.

            – Nuclear Wang
            5 hours ago















          11
















          Rule 707.9 says this:




          If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.




          There is no way for a game to end without one of these things happening to each face down permanent, so every face down permanent must be revealed one way or another by the end of the game.






          share|improve this answer

























          • Right, the player at some point will have to prove that the card does have morph, but doesn't do so when playing it. The proof comes at essentially the last opportunity - when the morphed permanent moves zones and stops being a morphed permanent, or when the game ends.

            – Nuclear Wang
            5 hours ago













          11














          11










          11









          Rule 707.9 says this:




          If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.




          There is no way for a game to end without one of these things happening to each face down permanent, so every face down permanent must be revealed one way or another by the end of the game.






          share|improve this answer













          Rule 707.9 says this:




          If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all players as they move it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.




          There is no way for a game to end without one of these things happening to each face down permanent, so every face down permanent must be revealed one way or another by the end of the game.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 8 hours ago









          murgatroid99murgatroid99

          52.8k8 gold badges134 silver badges221 bronze badges




          52.8k8 gold badges134 silver badges221 bronze badges















          • Right, the player at some point will have to prove that the card does have morph, but doesn't do so when playing it. The proof comes at essentially the last opportunity - when the morphed permanent moves zones and stops being a morphed permanent, or when the game ends.

            – Nuclear Wang
            5 hours ago

















          • Right, the player at some point will have to prove that the card does have morph, but doesn't do so when playing it. The proof comes at essentially the last opportunity - when the morphed permanent moves zones and stops being a morphed permanent, or when the game ends.

            – Nuclear Wang
            5 hours ago
















          Right, the player at some point will have to prove that the card does have morph, but doesn't do so when playing it. The proof comes at essentially the last opportunity - when the morphed permanent moves zones and stops being a morphed permanent, or when the game ends.

          – Nuclear Wang
          5 hours ago





          Right, the player at some point will have to prove that the card does have morph, but doesn't do so when playing it. The proof comes at essentially the last opportunity - when the morphed permanent moves zones and stops being a morphed permanent, or when the game ends.

          – Nuclear Wang
          5 hours ago













          6
















          Failing to reveal a face down creature with Morph at the end of the game is treated as a Game Loss.



          Per the MTG Infraction Procedure Guide:




          3.2. Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error



          Penalty



          Warning



          Definition



          A player commits an error in the game that cannot be corrected by only publicly available information. It is not a Hidden Card Error if the opponent acknowledges the action or controls the continuous effect modifying the game rule that was violated. This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both beforeand after the error.



          (...)



          Upgrade



          If a face-down card cast using a morph ability is discovered during the game to not have a morph ability, the penalty is a Game Loss. If the player has one or more cards with a morph ability in hand, has not added previously unknown cards to their hand since casting the card found in violation, and has discovered the error themselves, the upgrade does not apply and they may swap the card for a card with the morph ability in hand




          This is reinforced by rule 707.9 of the Magic Comprehensive rules.




          707.9. If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as theymove it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all playersas theymove it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.







          share|improve this answer



























          • That's an old version of the guide, the new version is: media.wpn.wizards.com/attachements/mtg_ipg_12jul19_en.pdf and the section you'd want to reference is 2.3 Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error

            – firedraco
            8 hours ago












          • @firedraco Fixed

            – DenisS
            8 hours ago






          • 1





            It seems a little weird to say that the comprehensive rules "reinforce" the IPG. The comprehensive rules are the core rules, and the IPG is about how to enforce the rules.

            – murgatroid99
            8 hours ago











          • Also, keep in mind that the question is tagged with "mtg-regular-rel", and Regular REL is a rules enforcement level the IPG doesn't apply to. Even more so, it doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic (which you didn't claim, but I'll add for completeness's sake).

            – TheThirdMan
            8 hours ago












          • Right, for regular REL, the document that applies is Judging at Regular REL instead of the IPG.

            – murgatroid99
            7 hours ago















          6
















          Failing to reveal a face down creature with Morph at the end of the game is treated as a Game Loss.



          Per the MTG Infraction Procedure Guide:




          3.2. Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error



          Penalty



          Warning



          Definition



          A player commits an error in the game that cannot be corrected by only publicly available information. It is not a Hidden Card Error if the opponent acknowledges the action or controls the continuous effect modifying the game rule that was violated. This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both beforeand after the error.



          (...)



          Upgrade



          If a face-down card cast using a morph ability is discovered during the game to not have a morph ability, the penalty is a Game Loss. If the player has one or more cards with a morph ability in hand, has not added previously unknown cards to their hand since casting the card found in violation, and has discovered the error themselves, the upgrade does not apply and they may swap the card for a card with the morph ability in hand




          This is reinforced by rule 707.9 of the Magic Comprehensive rules.




          707.9. If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as theymove it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all playersas theymove it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.







          share|improve this answer



























          • That's an old version of the guide, the new version is: media.wpn.wizards.com/attachements/mtg_ipg_12jul19_en.pdf and the section you'd want to reference is 2.3 Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error

            – firedraco
            8 hours ago












          • @firedraco Fixed

            – DenisS
            8 hours ago






          • 1





            It seems a little weird to say that the comprehensive rules "reinforce" the IPG. The comprehensive rules are the core rules, and the IPG is about how to enforce the rules.

            – murgatroid99
            8 hours ago











          • Also, keep in mind that the question is tagged with "mtg-regular-rel", and Regular REL is a rules enforcement level the IPG doesn't apply to. Even more so, it doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic (which you didn't claim, but I'll add for completeness's sake).

            – TheThirdMan
            8 hours ago












          • Right, for regular REL, the document that applies is Judging at Regular REL instead of the IPG.

            – murgatroid99
            7 hours ago













          6














          6










          6









          Failing to reveal a face down creature with Morph at the end of the game is treated as a Game Loss.



          Per the MTG Infraction Procedure Guide:




          3.2. Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error



          Penalty



          Warning



          Definition



          A player commits an error in the game that cannot be corrected by only publicly available information. It is not a Hidden Card Error if the opponent acknowledges the action or controls the continuous effect modifying the game rule that was violated. This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both beforeand after the error.



          (...)



          Upgrade



          If a face-down card cast using a morph ability is discovered during the game to not have a morph ability, the penalty is a Game Loss. If the player has one or more cards with a morph ability in hand, has not added previously unknown cards to their hand since casting the card found in violation, and has discovered the error themselves, the upgrade does not apply and they may swap the card for a card with the morph ability in hand




          This is reinforced by rule 707.9 of the Magic Comprehensive rules.




          707.9. If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as theymove it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all playersas theymove it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.







          share|improve this answer















          Failing to reveal a face down creature with Morph at the end of the game is treated as a Game Loss.



          Per the MTG Infraction Procedure Guide:




          3.2. Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error



          Penalty



          Warning



          Definition



          A player commits an error in the game that cannot be corrected by only publicly available information. It is not a Hidden Card Error if the opponent acknowledges the action or controls the continuous effect modifying the game rule that was violated. This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both beforeand after the error.



          (...)



          Upgrade



          If a face-down card cast using a morph ability is discovered during the game to not have a morph ability, the penalty is a Game Loss. If the player has one or more cards with a morph ability in hand, has not added previously unknown cards to their hand since casting the card found in violation, and has discovered the error themselves, the upgrade does not apply and they may swap the card for a card with the morph ability in hand




          This is reinforced by rule 707.9 of the Magic Comprehensive rules.




          707.9. If a face-down permanent moves from the battlefield to any other zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as theymove it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the battlefield, its owner must reveal it to all playersas theymove it. If a player leaves the game, all face-down permanents and spells owned by that player must be revealed to all players. At the end of each game, all face-down permanents and spells must be revealed to all players.








          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 8 hours ago

























          answered 8 hours ago









          DenisSDenisS

          6203 silver badges14 bronze badges




          6203 silver badges14 bronze badges















          • That's an old version of the guide, the new version is: media.wpn.wizards.com/attachements/mtg_ipg_12jul19_en.pdf and the section you'd want to reference is 2.3 Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error

            – firedraco
            8 hours ago












          • @firedraco Fixed

            – DenisS
            8 hours ago






          • 1





            It seems a little weird to say that the comprehensive rules "reinforce" the IPG. The comprehensive rules are the core rules, and the IPG is about how to enforce the rules.

            – murgatroid99
            8 hours ago











          • Also, keep in mind that the question is tagged with "mtg-regular-rel", and Regular REL is a rules enforcement level the IPG doesn't apply to. Even more so, it doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic (which you didn't claim, but I'll add for completeness's sake).

            – TheThirdMan
            8 hours ago












          • Right, for regular REL, the document that applies is Judging at Regular REL instead of the IPG.

            – murgatroid99
            7 hours ago

















          • That's an old version of the guide, the new version is: media.wpn.wizards.com/attachements/mtg_ipg_12jul19_en.pdf and the section you'd want to reference is 2.3 Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error

            – firedraco
            8 hours ago












          • @firedraco Fixed

            – DenisS
            8 hours ago






          • 1





            It seems a little weird to say that the comprehensive rules "reinforce" the IPG. The comprehensive rules are the core rules, and the IPG is about how to enforce the rules.

            – murgatroid99
            8 hours ago











          • Also, keep in mind that the question is tagged with "mtg-regular-rel", and Regular REL is a rules enforcement level the IPG doesn't apply to. Even more so, it doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic (which you didn't claim, but I'll add for completeness's sake).

            – TheThirdMan
            8 hours ago












          • Right, for regular REL, the document that applies is Judging at Regular REL instead of the IPG.

            – murgatroid99
            7 hours ago
















          That's an old version of the guide, the new version is: media.wpn.wizards.com/attachements/mtg_ipg_12jul19_en.pdf and the section you'd want to reference is 2.3 Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error

          – firedraco
          8 hours ago






          That's an old version of the guide, the new version is: media.wpn.wizards.com/attachements/mtg_ipg_12jul19_en.pdf and the section you'd want to reference is 2.3 Game Play Error — Hidden Card Error

          – firedraco
          8 hours ago














          @firedraco Fixed

          – DenisS
          8 hours ago





          @firedraco Fixed

          – DenisS
          8 hours ago




          1




          1





          It seems a little weird to say that the comprehensive rules "reinforce" the IPG. The comprehensive rules are the core rules, and the IPG is about how to enforce the rules.

          – murgatroid99
          8 hours ago





          It seems a little weird to say that the comprehensive rules "reinforce" the IPG. The comprehensive rules are the core rules, and the IPG is about how to enforce the rules.

          – murgatroid99
          8 hours ago













          Also, keep in mind that the question is tagged with "mtg-regular-rel", and Regular REL is a rules enforcement level the IPG doesn't apply to. Even more so, it doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic (which you didn't claim, but I'll add for completeness's sake).

          – TheThirdMan
          8 hours ago






          Also, keep in mind that the question is tagged with "mtg-regular-rel", and Regular REL is a rules enforcement level the IPG doesn't apply to. Even more so, it doesn't apply to kitchen table Magic (which you didn't claim, but I'll add for completeness's sake).

          – TheThirdMan
          8 hours ago














          Right, for regular REL, the document that applies is Judging at Regular REL instead of the IPG.

          – murgatroid99
          7 hours ago





          Right, for regular REL, the document that applies is Judging at Regular REL instead of the IPG.

          – murgatroid99
          7 hours ago


















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