How can I perform a deterministic physics simulation?Water/Ocean simulation and physicsgpgpu vs. physX for physics simulationphysics model simulationNumerical stability in continuous physics simulationDeterministic calculation in JavaScriptColliders for moving inside a spaceship when the whole spaceship is made of a single mesh (in Unity)Bird flight simulation (physics)Floating point determinism with respect to procedural generation, clustering and GPU offloadingCalculating displacement in physics simulationHow to implement a “Parent Constraint” in a custom 2D rigid body physics engine

Can the globes from multiple castings of the Otiluke's Freezing Sphere spell be stockpiled?

speaker impedence

Define tcolorbox in math mode

Transistor design with beta variation

Is the un-detonated globe of Otiluke's Freezing Sphere magical?

Any information about the photo with Army Uniforms

How were x-ray diffraction patterns deciphered before computers?

Is Illustrator accurate for business card sizes?

Does the problem of P vs NP come under the category of Operational Research?

Declaring a visitor to the UK as my "girlfriend" - effect on getting a Visitor visa?

Has J.J.Jameson ever found out that Peter Parker is Spider-Man?

Is Norway in the Single Market?

What is the most 'environmentally friendly' way to learn to fly?

A conjectural trigonometric identity

Export economy of Mars

Matrix condition number and reordering

Why have both: BJT and FET transistors on IC output?

How to get maximum number that newcount can hold?

How do people drown while wearing a life jacket?

δόλος = deceit in John 1:47

What is the reason behind water not falling from a bucket at the top of loop?

How do I know if I can replace the 27 inch wheels with 700c wheels on my MIELE bike?

Why are sugars in whole fruits not digested the same way sugars in juice are?

How does Rust's 128-bit integer `i128` work on a 64-bit system?



How can I perform a deterministic physics simulation?


Water/Ocean simulation and physicsgpgpu vs. physX for physics simulationphysics model simulationNumerical stability in continuous physics simulationDeterministic calculation in JavaScriptColliders for moving inside a spaceship when the whole spaceship is made of a single mesh (in Unity)Bird flight simulation (physics)Floating point determinism with respect to procedural generation, clustering and GPU offloadingCalculating displacement in physics simulationHow to implement a “Parent Constraint” in a custom 2D rigid body physics engine






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








3












$begingroup$


I'm creating a physics game involving rigid bodies in which players move pieces and parts to solve a puzzle. A hugely important aspect of the game is that when players start a simulation, it runs the same everywhere, regardless of their operating system, processor, etc...



There is room for a lot of complexity and simulations may run for a long time, so it's important that the physics engine is completely deterministic with regards to its floating point operations, otherwise a solution may appear to "solve" on one player's machine and "fail" on another.



How can I acieve this determinism in my game? I am willing to use a variety of frameworks and languages, including Javascript, C++, Java, Python, and C#.



I have been tempted by Box2D (C++) as well as its equivalents in other languages, as it seems to meet my needs, but it lacks floating point determinism, particularly with trigonometric functions.



The best option I've seen thus far has been Box2D's Java equivalent (JBox2D). It appears to make an attempt at floating point determinism by using StrictMath rather than Math for many operations, but it's unclear whether this engine will guarantee everything I need as I haven't built the game yet.



Is it possible to use or modify an existing engine to suit my needs? Or will I need to build an engine on my own?



EDIT: I'll further explain how the game is supposed to work. The player is given a puzzle or level, which contains obstacles and a goal. Initially, a simulation is not running. They can then use pieces or tools provided to them to build a machine. Once they press start, the simulation begins and they can no longer edit their machine. If the machine solves the puzzle, the player has beaten the level. Otherwise, they will have to press stop, alter their machine, and try again.










share|improve this question









New contributor



jvn91173 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Is there any way you can provide more detail on how this game is supposed to work? If you need all of the objects to fall into the EXACT same place at the beginning of a puzzle, you could bake the start of the simulation. That way, all of the objects are playing a pre-determined animation to get them into their initial positions. Then, when you want the player to interact with the objects in a non-deterministic way, just turn on the physics simulation for those objects.
    $endgroup$
    – JPSmithpg
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I've edited the OP to further explain how the game is supposed to work. The challenge isn't getting everything in the right place when the user first sees the level; it's making sure that when the user presses start, each simulation (given the exact position and orientation of every piece of the machine) produces the same result across all platforms.
    $endgroup$
    – jvn91173
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You have not set yourself an easy task if you want to target many different CPUs & and want to be able to publish updates to your game without changing any past version results. Before we get too deep into this, it's worth investigating if there's anything you can do at the game design level to simplify the problem. For instance, can you snap puzzle piece positions/orientations to a coarser resolution than raw floating point, restrict the vocabulary of the moving parts/interactions, or add rounding/coalescing steps?
    $endgroup$
    – DMGregory
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @DMGregory Snapping positions and/or rounding is an interesting thought. However, isn't this still subject to the same struggles that I faced before? For example, if sine on architecture 1 produces 0.49999999, and sine on architecture 2 produces 0.50000001, don't we have a problem once we round to the nearest unit?
    $endgroup$
    – jvn91173
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I'd strongly recommend keeping transcendentals out of your inner loop if you can. The rounding suggestion was more about limiting accumulation of drift. If two simulations are going to differ, you want them to do it early and obviously so you can spot the error (eg. in unit tests) and identify the exact simulation step that you need to correct, rather than letting small differences accumulate quietly in the lowest bits where they usually don't produce a visible deviation (until one player finds a situation 10000 steps later where they do, and who knows where the initial divergence happened).
    $endgroup$
    – DMGregory
    6 hours ago

















3












$begingroup$


I'm creating a physics game involving rigid bodies in which players move pieces and parts to solve a puzzle. A hugely important aspect of the game is that when players start a simulation, it runs the same everywhere, regardless of their operating system, processor, etc...



There is room for a lot of complexity and simulations may run for a long time, so it's important that the physics engine is completely deterministic with regards to its floating point operations, otherwise a solution may appear to "solve" on one player's machine and "fail" on another.



How can I acieve this determinism in my game? I am willing to use a variety of frameworks and languages, including Javascript, C++, Java, Python, and C#.



I have been tempted by Box2D (C++) as well as its equivalents in other languages, as it seems to meet my needs, but it lacks floating point determinism, particularly with trigonometric functions.



The best option I've seen thus far has been Box2D's Java equivalent (JBox2D). It appears to make an attempt at floating point determinism by using StrictMath rather than Math for many operations, but it's unclear whether this engine will guarantee everything I need as I haven't built the game yet.



Is it possible to use or modify an existing engine to suit my needs? Or will I need to build an engine on my own?



EDIT: I'll further explain how the game is supposed to work. The player is given a puzzle or level, which contains obstacles and a goal. Initially, a simulation is not running. They can then use pieces or tools provided to them to build a machine. Once they press start, the simulation begins and they can no longer edit their machine. If the machine solves the puzzle, the player has beaten the level. Otherwise, they will have to press stop, alter their machine, and try again.










share|improve this question









New contributor



jvn91173 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Is there any way you can provide more detail on how this game is supposed to work? If you need all of the objects to fall into the EXACT same place at the beginning of a puzzle, you could bake the start of the simulation. That way, all of the objects are playing a pre-determined animation to get them into their initial positions. Then, when you want the player to interact with the objects in a non-deterministic way, just turn on the physics simulation for those objects.
    $endgroup$
    – JPSmithpg
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I've edited the OP to further explain how the game is supposed to work. The challenge isn't getting everything in the right place when the user first sees the level; it's making sure that when the user presses start, each simulation (given the exact position and orientation of every piece of the machine) produces the same result across all platforms.
    $endgroup$
    – jvn91173
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You have not set yourself an easy task if you want to target many different CPUs & and want to be able to publish updates to your game without changing any past version results. Before we get too deep into this, it's worth investigating if there's anything you can do at the game design level to simplify the problem. For instance, can you snap puzzle piece positions/orientations to a coarser resolution than raw floating point, restrict the vocabulary of the moving parts/interactions, or add rounding/coalescing steps?
    $endgroup$
    – DMGregory
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @DMGregory Snapping positions and/or rounding is an interesting thought. However, isn't this still subject to the same struggles that I faced before? For example, if sine on architecture 1 produces 0.49999999, and sine on architecture 2 produces 0.50000001, don't we have a problem once we round to the nearest unit?
    $endgroup$
    – jvn91173
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I'd strongly recommend keeping transcendentals out of your inner loop if you can. The rounding suggestion was more about limiting accumulation of drift. If two simulations are going to differ, you want them to do it early and obviously so you can spot the error (eg. in unit tests) and identify the exact simulation step that you need to correct, rather than letting small differences accumulate quietly in the lowest bits where they usually don't produce a visible deviation (until one player finds a situation 10000 steps later where they do, and who knows where the initial divergence happened).
    $endgroup$
    – DMGregory
    6 hours ago













3












3








3





$begingroup$


I'm creating a physics game involving rigid bodies in which players move pieces and parts to solve a puzzle. A hugely important aspect of the game is that when players start a simulation, it runs the same everywhere, regardless of their operating system, processor, etc...



There is room for a lot of complexity and simulations may run for a long time, so it's important that the physics engine is completely deterministic with regards to its floating point operations, otherwise a solution may appear to "solve" on one player's machine and "fail" on another.



How can I acieve this determinism in my game? I am willing to use a variety of frameworks and languages, including Javascript, C++, Java, Python, and C#.



I have been tempted by Box2D (C++) as well as its equivalents in other languages, as it seems to meet my needs, but it lacks floating point determinism, particularly with trigonometric functions.



The best option I've seen thus far has been Box2D's Java equivalent (JBox2D). It appears to make an attempt at floating point determinism by using StrictMath rather than Math for many operations, but it's unclear whether this engine will guarantee everything I need as I haven't built the game yet.



Is it possible to use or modify an existing engine to suit my needs? Or will I need to build an engine on my own?



EDIT: I'll further explain how the game is supposed to work. The player is given a puzzle or level, which contains obstacles and a goal. Initially, a simulation is not running. They can then use pieces or tools provided to them to build a machine. Once they press start, the simulation begins and they can no longer edit their machine. If the machine solves the puzzle, the player has beaten the level. Otherwise, they will have to press stop, alter their machine, and try again.










share|improve this question









New contributor



jvn91173 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




I'm creating a physics game involving rigid bodies in which players move pieces and parts to solve a puzzle. A hugely important aspect of the game is that when players start a simulation, it runs the same everywhere, regardless of their operating system, processor, etc...



There is room for a lot of complexity and simulations may run for a long time, so it's important that the physics engine is completely deterministic with regards to its floating point operations, otherwise a solution may appear to "solve" on one player's machine and "fail" on another.



How can I acieve this determinism in my game? I am willing to use a variety of frameworks and languages, including Javascript, C++, Java, Python, and C#.



I have been tempted by Box2D (C++) as well as its equivalents in other languages, as it seems to meet my needs, but it lacks floating point determinism, particularly with trigonometric functions.



The best option I've seen thus far has been Box2D's Java equivalent (JBox2D). It appears to make an attempt at floating point determinism by using StrictMath rather than Math for many operations, but it's unclear whether this engine will guarantee everything I need as I haven't built the game yet.



Is it possible to use or modify an existing engine to suit my needs? Or will I need to build an engine on my own?



EDIT: I'll further explain how the game is supposed to work. The player is given a puzzle or level, which contains obstacles and a goal. Initially, a simulation is not running. They can then use pieces or tools provided to them to build a machine. Once they press start, the simulation begins and they can no longer edit their machine. If the machine solves the puzzle, the player has beaten the level. Otherwise, they will have to press stop, alter their machine, and try again.







physics physics-engine floating-point






share|improve this question









New contributor



jvn91173 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question









New contributor



jvn91173 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 7 hours ago







jvn91173













New contributor



jvn91173 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








asked 9 hours ago









jvn91173jvn91173

163 bronze badges




163 bronze badges




New contributor



jvn91173 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




jvn91173 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • $begingroup$
    Is there any way you can provide more detail on how this game is supposed to work? If you need all of the objects to fall into the EXACT same place at the beginning of a puzzle, you could bake the start of the simulation. That way, all of the objects are playing a pre-determined animation to get them into their initial positions. Then, when you want the player to interact with the objects in a non-deterministic way, just turn on the physics simulation for those objects.
    $endgroup$
    – JPSmithpg
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I've edited the OP to further explain how the game is supposed to work. The challenge isn't getting everything in the right place when the user first sees the level; it's making sure that when the user presses start, each simulation (given the exact position and orientation of every piece of the machine) produces the same result across all platforms.
    $endgroup$
    – jvn91173
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You have not set yourself an easy task if you want to target many different CPUs & and want to be able to publish updates to your game without changing any past version results. Before we get too deep into this, it's worth investigating if there's anything you can do at the game design level to simplify the problem. For instance, can you snap puzzle piece positions/orientations to a coarser resolution than raw floating point, restrict the vocabulary of the moving parts/interactions, or add rounding/coalescing steps?
    $endgroup$
    – DMGregory
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @DMGregory Snapping positions and/or rounding is an interesting thought. However, isn't this still subject to the same struggles that I faced before? For example, if sine on architecture 1 produces 0.49999999, and sine on architecture 2 produces 0.50000001, don't we have a problem once we round to the nearest unit?
    $endgroup$
    – jvn91173
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I'd strongly recommend keeping transcendentals out of your inner loop if you can. The rounding suggestion was more about limiting accumulation of drift. If two simulations are going to differ, you want them to do it early and obviously so you can spot the error (eg. in unit tests) and identify the exact simulation step that you need to correct, rather than letting small differences accumulate quietly in the lowest bits where they usually don't produce a visible deviation (until one player finds a situation 10000 steps later where they do, and who knows where the initial divergence happened).
    $endgroup$
    – DMGregory
    6 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Is there any way you can provide more detail on how this game is supposed to work? If you need all of the objects to fall into the EXACT same place at the beginning of a puzzle, you could bake the start of the simulation. That way, all of the objects are playing a pre-determined animation to get them into their initial positions. Then, when you want the player to interact with the objects in a non-deterministic way, just turn on the physics simulation for those objects.
    $endgroup$
    – JPSmithpg
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I've edited the OP to further explain how the game is supposed to work. The challenge isn't getting everything in the right place when the user first sees the level; it's making sure that when the user presses start, each simulation (given the exact position and orientation of every piece of the machine) produces the same result across all platforms.
    $endgroup$
    – jvn91173
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You have not set yourself an easy task if you want to target many different CPUs & and want to be able to publish updates to your game without changing any past version results. Before we get too deep into this, it's worth investigating if there's anything you can do at the game design level to simplify the problem. For instance, can you snap puzzle piece positions/orientations to a coarser resolution than raw floating point, restrict the vocabulary of the moving parts/interactions, or add rounding/coalescing steps?
    $endgroup$
    – DMGregory
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @DMGregory Snapping positions and/or rounding is an interesting thought. However, isn't this still subject to the same struggles that I faced before? For example, if sine on architecture 1 produces 0.49999999, and sine on architecture 2 produces 0.50000001, don't we have a problem once we round to the nearest unit?
    $endgroup$
    – jvn91173
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I'd strongly recommend keeping transcendentals out of your inner loop if you can. The rounding suggestion was more about limiting accumulation of drift. If two simulations are going to differ, you want them to do it early and obviously so you can spot the error (eg. in unit tests) and identify the exact simulation step that you need to correct, rather than letting small differences accumulate quietly in the lowest bits where they usually don't produce a visible deviation (until one player finds a situation 10000 steps later where they do, and who knows where the initial divergence happened).
    $endgroup$
    – DMGregory
    6 hours ago















$begingroup$
Is there any way you can provide more detail on how this game is supposed to work? If you need all of the objects to fall into the EXACT same place at the beginning of a puzzle, you could bake the start of the simulation. That way, all of the objects are playing a pre-determined animation to get them into their initial positions. Then, when you want the player to interact with the objects in a non-deterministic way, just turn on the physics simulation for those objects.
$endgroup$
– JPSmithpg
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Is there any way you can provide more detail on how this game is supposed to work? If you need all of the objects to fall into the EXACT same place at the beginning of a puzzle, you could bake the start of the simulation. That way, all of the objects are playing a pre-determined animation to get them into their initial positions. Then, when you want the player to interact with the objects in a non-deterministic way, just turn on the physics simulation for those objects.
$endgroup$
– JPSmithpg
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
I've edited the OP to further explain how the game is supposed to work. The challenge isn't getting everything in the right place when the user first sees the level; it's making sure that when the user presses start, each simulation (given the exact position and orientation of every piece of the machine) produces the same result across all platforms.
$endgroup$
– jvn91173
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
I've edited the OP to further explain how the game is supposed to work. The challenge isn't getting everything in the right place when the user first sees the level; it's making sure that when the user presses start, each simulation (given the exact position and orientation of every piece of the machine) produces the same result across all platforms.
$endgroup$
– jvn91173
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
You have not set yourself an easy task if you want to target many different CPUs & and want to be able to publish updates to your game without changing any past version results. Before we get too deep into this, it's worth investigating if there's anything you can do at the game design level to simplify the problem. For instance, can you snap puzzle piece positions/orientations to a coarser resolution than raw floating point, restrict the vocabulary of the moving parts/interactions, or add rounding/coalescing steps?
$endgroup$
– DMGregory
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
You have not set yourself an easy task if you want to target many different CPUs & and want to be able to publish updates to your game without changing any past version results. Before we get too deep into this, it's worth investigating if there's anything you can do at the game design level to simplify the problem. For instance, can you snap puzzle piece positions/orientations to a coarser resolution than raw floating point, restrict the vocabulary of the moving parts/interactions, or add rounding/coalescing steps?
$endgroup$
– DMGregory
7 hours ago













$begingroup$
@DMGregory Snapping positions and/or rounding is an interesting thought. However, isn't this still subject to the same struggles that I faced before? For example, if sine on architecture 1 produces 0.49999999, and sine on architecture 2 produces 0.50000001, don't we have a problem once we round to the nearest unit?
$endgroup$
– jvn91173
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
@DMGregory Snapping positions and/or rounding is an interesting thought. However, isn't this still subject to the same struggles that I faced before? For example, if sine on architecture 1 produces 0.49999999, and sine on architecture 2 produces 0.50000001, don't we have a problem once we round to the nearest unit?
$endgroup$
– jvn91173
7 hours ago













$begingroup$
I'd strongly recommend keeping transcendentals out of your inner loop if you can. The rounding suggestion was more about limiting accumulation of drift. If two simulations are going to differ, you want them to do it early and obviously so you can spot the error (eg. in unit tests) and identify the exact simulation step that you need to correct, rather than letting small differences accumulate quietly in the lowest bits where they usually don't produce a visible deviation (until one player finds a situation 10000 steps later where they do, and who knows where the initial divergence happened).
$endgroup$
– DMGregory
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
I'd strongly recommend keeping transcendentals out of your inner loop if you can. The rounding suggestion was more about limiting accumulation of drift. If two simulations are going to differ, you want them to do it early and obviously so you can spot the error (eg. in unit tests) and identify the exact simulation step that you need to correct, rather than letting small differences accumulate quietly in the lowest bits where they usually don't produce a visible deviation (until one player finds a situation 10000 steps later where they do, and who knows where the initial divergence happened).
$endgroup$
– DMGregory
6 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

I will end up saying to use fixed point number. However, this is a ride I am taking you on.




Floating point is deterministic. Well, it should be. It is complicated.



There is plenty of literature on floating point numbers:



  • What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic

  • THE NEW IEEE-754 STANDARD FOR FLOATING POINT ARITHMETIC

  • IEEE 754-2008 revision

And how they are problematic:




  • Consistency of Floating Point Results or Why doesn’t my application always give the same answer?.


  • Cross-Platform Issues With Floating-Point Arithmetics in C++.


  • The pitfalls of verifying floating-point computations.


  • Is floating point math deterministic?.


  • What could cause a deterministic process to generate floating point errors.


  • Consistency: how to defeat the purpose of IEEE floating point.

For abstract. At least, on a single thread, the same operations, with the same data, happening in the same order, should be deterministic. Thus, we can start by worrying about inputs, and reordering.




One such input that causes problems is time.



Firat of all, you should always compute the same timestep. I am not saying to not measure time, I am saying that you will not pass time to the physics simulation, because variations in time are a source of noise in the simulation.



Why do you measure time if you are not passing it to the physics simulation? You want to measure the elapsed time to know when a simulation step should be called, and - assuming you are using sleep - how much time to sleep.



Thus:



  • Measure time: Yes

  • Use time in simulation: No


Now, instruction reordering. There are two sources of reordering: 1) the CPU...



It is possible to ensure that instructions happen in the same order in each CPU core, up until the point where they need to interact. The problem is as follows: if a CPU core needs to do an instruction that requires a value that has to be retrieved from the cache of another core, it is likely that it will pospone that instruction to one that uses values that are in its own cache, while it waits for the value from the other core.



Physics has plenty of opportunities for parallelism. However, if you want to avoid these problems - and keep the code easy to follow anyway - have your physics be single threaded.



Addendum: This reminds me, you want to miminize trips to RAM. They have a similar effect on the instruction order and a bigger effect on performance.



Thus:



  • Single threaded: Yes

  • Optimize for CPU cache: Yes


... and 2) the compiler.



It could decide that f * a + b is the same as b + f * a, however that may have a different result. It could also compile to fmadd, or it could decide take multiple lines like that that happen togheter and write them with SIMD, or some other optimization I cannot think of right now. And remember we want the same operations to happen on the same order, it comes to reason that we want to control what operations happen.



And no, using double will not save you.



You need to worry about the compiler and its configuration, in particular to synchronize floating point numbers across the network. You need to get the builds to agree to do the same thing.



Arguebly, writing assembly would be ideal. That way you decide what operation to do. However, that could be a problem for supporting multiple platforms.



Thus:



  • Ern... Hmm... Use a compiler that let you configure how they deal with floating point numbers. For example see /fp (Specify floating-point behavior)
    .


That brings me to different idea: keep your values small and truncate the results.



Due to the way floats are represented in memory, large values are going to lose precision. It comes to reason that keeping your values small (clamp) mitigates the problem. Thus, no huge speeds and no large rooms. Which also means you can use discrete physics because you have less risk of tunneling.



On the other hand, small errors will accumulate. So, truncate. I mean, scale and cast to an integer type. That way you know nothing is building up. There will be operations you can do staying with the integer type. When you need to go back to floating point you cast and unscale.



Note I say scale. The idea is that 1 unit will actually be represented as a power of two (16384 for example). Whatever it is, make it a constant and use it. You are basically using it as fixed point number. In fact, if you can use proper fixed point numbers from some reliable library much better.



I am saying truncate. About the rounding problem, it means you cannot trust the last bit of whaever value you got after the cast. So, before the cast scale to get one bit more than you need, and truncate it afterwads.



Thus:



  • Keep values small: Yes

  • Careful rounding: Yes

  • Fixed point numbers when possible: Yes


Wait, why do you need floating point? Could you not work only with an integer type? Oh, right. Trigonometry and radication. You can compute tables for trigonometry and radication and have them baked in your source. Or you can implement the algorithms used to compute them with floating point number, except using fixed point numbers instead. Yes, you need to balance memory, performance and precision. Yet, you could stay out of floating point numbers, and stay deterministic.



Did you know they did stuff like that for the original PlayStation? Please Meet My Dog, Patches.



By the way, I am not saying to not use floating point for graphics. Just for the physics. I mean, sure, the positions will depend on the physics. However, as you know a collider does not have to match a model. We do not want to see the results of truncation of the models.



Thus: USE FIXED POINT NUMBERS.




See also:



  • 3D Graphics on Mobile Devices - Part 2: Fixed Point Math

  • The neglected art of Fixed Point arithmetic

  • CORDIC Algorithm Simulation Code





share|improve this answer











$endgroup$






















    0












    $begingroup$

    Use double floating point precision, instead of single floating point precision. Although not perfect, it is accurate enough to be deemed deterministic in your physics.



    If you truly need perfect determinism, use fixed point math. This will give you less precision, but deterministic results. I am not aware of any physics engines that use fixed point math, so you may need to write your own if you wanted to go this route. (Something I would advise against.)






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      I recommend my other answer over this answer: gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/174324/41345
      $endgroup$
      – Evorlor
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The double-precision approach runs afoul of the butterfly effect. In a dynamical system (like a physics sim), even a tiny deviation in initial conditions can amplify through feedback, snowballing up to a perceptible error. All the extra digits do is delay this a little longer - forcing the snowball to roll a bit further before it gets big enough to cause problems.
      $endgroup$
      – DMGregory
      3 hours ago



















    0












    $begingroup$

    Use the Memento Pattern.



    In your initial run, save off the positional data each frame, or whatever benchmarks you need. If that is too unperformance, only do it every n frames.



    Then when you reproduce the simulation, follow the arbitrary physics, but update the positional data every n frames.



    Overly simplified pseudo-code:



    function Update():
    if(firstRun) then (SaveData(frame, position));
    else if(reproducedRun) then (this.position = GetData(frame));





    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      I don't think this works for OP's case. Let's say you and I are both playing the game on different systems. Each of us places the puzzle pieces in the same way - a solution that was not predicted in advance by the developer. When you click "start," your PC simulates the physics such that the solution is successful. When I do the same, some small difference in the simulation leads to my (identical) solution not being graded as successful. Here, I don't have the opportunity to consult the memento from your successful run, because it happened on your machine, not at dev time.
      $endgroup$
      – DMGregory
      3 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DMGregory That's correct. Thank you.
      $endgroup$
      – jvn91173
      2 hours ago













    Your Answer






    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function ()
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function ()
    StackExchange.snippets.init();
    );
    );
    , "code-snippets");

    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "53"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );






    jvn91173 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fgamedev.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f174320%2fhow-can-i-perform-a-deterministic-physics-simulation%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2












    $begingroup$

    I will end up saying to use fixed point number. However, this is a ride I am taking you on.




    Floating point is deterministic. Well, it should be. It is complicated.



    There is plenty of literature on floating point numbers:



    • What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic

    • THE NEW IEEE-754 STANDARD FOR FLOATING POINT ARITHMETIC

    • IEEE 754-2008 revision

    And how they are problematic:




    • Consistency of Floating Point Results or Why doesn’t my application always give the same answer?.


    • Cross-Platform Issues With Floating-Point Arithmetics in C++.


    • The pitfalls of verifying floating-point computations.


    • Is floating point math deterministic?.


    • What could cause a deterministic process to generate floating point errors.


    • Consistency: how to defeat the purpose of IEEE floating point.

    For abstract. At least, on a single thread, the same operations, with the same data, happening in the same order, should be deterministic. Thus, we can start by worrying about inputs, and reordering.




    One such input that causes problems is time.



    Firat of all, you should always compute the same timestep. I am not saying to not measure time, I am saying that you will not pass time to the physics simulation, because variations in time are a source of noise in the simulation.



    Why do you measure time if you are not passing it to the physics simulation? You want to measure the elapsed time to know when a simulation step should be called, and - assuming you are using sleep - how much time to sleep.



    Thus:



    • Measure time: Yes

    • Use time in simulation: No


    Now, instruction reordering. There are two sources of reordering: 1) the CPU...



    It is possible to ensure that instructions happen in the same order in each CPU core, up until the point where they need to interact. The problem is as follows: if a CPU core needs to do an instruction that requires a value that has to be retrieved from the cache of another core, it is likely that it will pospone that instruction to one that uses values that are in its own cache, while it waits for the value from the other core.



    Physics has plenty of opportunities for parallelism. However, if you want to avoid these problems - and keep the code easy to follow anyway - have your physics be single threaded.



    Addendum: This reminds me, you want to miminize trips to RAM. They have a similar effect on the instruction order and a bigger effect on performance.



    Thus:



    • Single threaded: Yes

    • Optimize for CPU cache: Yes


    ... and 2) the compiler.



    It could decide that f * a + b is the same as b + f * a, however that may have a different result. It could also compile to fmadd, or it could decide take multiple lines like that that happen togheter and write them with SIMD, or some other optimization I cannot think of right now. And remember we want the same operations to happen on the same order, it comes to reason that we want to control what operations happen.



    And no, using double will not save you.



    You need to worry about the compiler and its configuration, in particular to synchronize floating point numbers across the network. You need to get the builds to agree to do the same thing.



    Arguebly, writing assembly would be ideal. That way you decide what operation to do. However, that could be a problem for supporting multiple platforms.



    Thus:



    • Ern... Hmm... Use a compiler that let you configure how they deal with floating point numbers. For example see /fp (Specify floating-point behavior)
      .


    That brings me to different idea: keep your values small and truncate the results.



    Due to the way floats are represented in memory, large values are going to lose precision. It comes to reason that keeping your values small (clamp) mitigates the problem. Thus, no huge speeds and no large rooms. Which also means you can use discrete physics because you have less risk of tunneling.



    On the other hand, small errors will accumulate. So, truncate. I mean, scale and cast to an integer type. That way you know nothing is building up. There will be operations you can do staying with the integer type. When you need to go back to floating point you cast and unscale.



    Note I say scale. The idea is that 1 unit will actually be represented as a power of two (16384 for example). Whatever it is, make it a constant and use it. You are basically using it as fixed point number. In fact, if you can use proper fixed point numbers from some reliable library much better.



    I am saying truncate. About the rounding problem, it means you cannot trust the last bit of whaever value you got after the cast. So, before the cast scale to get one bit more than you need, and truncate it afterwads.



    Thus:



    • Keep values small: Yes

    • Careful rounding: Yes

    • Fixed point numbers when possible: Yes


    Wait, why do you need floating point? Could you not work only with an integer type? Oh, right. Trigonometry and radication. You can compute tables for trigonometry and radication and have them baked in your source. Or you can implement the algorithms used to compute them with floating point number, except using fixed point numbers instead. Yes, you need to balance memory, performance and precision. Yet, you could stay out of floating point numbers, and stay deterministic.



    Did you know they did stuff like that for the original PlayStation? Please Meet My Dog, Patches.



    By the way, I am not saying to not use floating point for graphics. Just for the physics. I mean, sure, the positions will depend on the physics. However, as you know a collider does not have to match a model. We do not want to see the results of truncation of the models.



    Thus: USE FIXED POINT NUMBERS.




    See also:



    • 3D Graphics on Mobile Devices - Part 2: Fixed Point Math

    • The neglected art of Fixed Point arithmetic

    • CORDIC Algorithm Simulation Code





    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



















      2












      $begingroup$

      I will end up saying to use fixed point number. However, this is a ride I am taking you on.




      Floating point is deterministic. Well, it should be. It is complicated.



      There is plenty of literature on floating point numbers:



      • What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic

      • THE NEW IEEE-754 STANDARD FOR FLOATING POINT ARITHMETIC

      • IEEE 754-2008 revision

      And how they are problematic:




      • Consistency of Floating Point Results or Why doesn’t my application always give the same answer?.


      • Cross-Platform Issues With Floating-Point Arithmetics in C++.


      • The pitfalls of verifying floating-point computations.


      • Is floating point math deterministic?.


      • What could cause a deterministic process to generate floating point errors.


      • Consistency: how to defeat the purpose of IEEE floating point.

      For abstract. At least, on a single thread, the same operations, with the same data, happening in the same order, should be deterministic. Thus, we can start by worrying about inputs, and reordering.




      One such input that causes problems is time.



      Firat of all, you should always compute the same timestep. I am not saying to not measure time, I am saying that you will not pass time to the physics simulation, because variations in time are a source of noise in the simulation.



      Why do you measure time if you are not passing it to the physics simulation? You want to measure the elapsed time to know when a simulation step should be called, and - assuming you are using sleep - how much time to sleep.



      Thus:



      • Measure time: Yes

      • Use time in simulation: No


      Now, instruction reordering. There are two sources of reordering: 1) the CPU...



      It is possible to ensure that instructions happen in the same order in each CPU core, up until the point where they need to interact. The problem is as follows: if a CPU core needs to do an instruction that requires a value that has to be retrieved from the cache of another core, it is likely that it will pospone that instruction to one that uses values that are in its own cache, while it waits for the value from the other core.



      Physics has plenty of opportunities for parallelism. However, if you want to avoid these problems - and keep the code easy to follow anyway - have your physics be single threaded.



      Addendum: This reminds me, you want to miminize trips to RAM. They have a similar effect on the instruction order and a bigger effect on performance.



      Thus:



      • Single threaded: Yes

      • Optimize for CPU cache: Yes


      ... and 2) the compiler.



      It could decide that f * a + b is the same as b + f * a, however that may have a different result. It could also compile to fmadd, or it could decide take multiple lines like that that happen togheter and write them with SIMD, or some other optimization I cannot think of right now. And remember we want the same operations to happen on the same order, it comes to reason that we want to control what operations happen.



      And no, using double will not save you.



      You need to worry about the compiler and its configuration, in particular to synchronize floating point numbers across the network. You need to get the builds to agree to do the same thing.



      Arguebly, writing assembly would be ideal. That way you decide what operation to do. However, that could be a problem for supporting multiple platforms.



      Thus:



      • Ern... Hmm... Use a compiler that let you configure how they deal with floating point numbers. For example see /fp (Specify floating-point behavior)
        .


      That brings me to different idea: keep your values small and truncate the results.



      Due to the way floats are represented in memory, large values are going to lose precision. It comes to reason that keeping your values small (clamp) mitigates the problem. Thus, no huge speeds and no large rooms. Which also means you can use discrete physics because you have less risk of tunneling.



      On the other hand, small errors will accumulate. So, truncate. I mean, scale and cast to an integer type. That way you know nothing is building up. There will be operations you can do staying with the integer type. When you need to go back to floating point you cast and unscale.



      Note I say scale. The idea is that 1 unit will actually be represented as a power of two (16384 for example). Whatever it is, make it a constant and use it. You are basically using it as fixed point number. In fact, if you can use proper fixed point numbers from some reliable library much better.



      I am saying truncate. About the rounding problem, it means you cannot trust the last bit of whaever value you got after the cast. So, before the cast scale to get one bit more than you need, and truncate it afterwads.



      Thus:



      • Keep values small: Yes

      • Careful rounding: Yes

      • Fixed point numbers when possible: Yes


      Wait, why do you need floating point? Could you not work only with an integer type? Oh, right. Trigonometry and radication. You can compute tables for trigonometry and radication and have them baked in your source. Or you can implement the algorithms used to compute them with floating point number, except using fixed point numbers instead. Yes, you need to balance memory, performance and precision. Yet, you could stay out of floating point numbers, and stay deterministic.



      Did you know they did stuff like that for the original PlayStation? Please Meet My Dog, Patches.



      By the way, I am not saying to not use floating point for graphics. Just for the physics. I mean, sure, the positions will depend on the physics. However, as you know a collider does not have to match a model. We do not want to see the results of truncation of the models.



      Thus: USE FIXED POINT NUMBERS.




      See also:



      • 3D Graphics on Mobile Devices - Part 2: Fixed Point Math

      • The neglected art of Fixed Point arithmetic

      • CORDIC Algorithm Simulation Code





      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        2












        2








        2





        $begingroup$

        I will end up saying to use fixed point number. However, this is a ride I am taking you on.




        Floating point is deterministic. Well, it should be. It is complicated.



        There is plenty of literature on floating point numbers:



        • What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic

        • THE NEW IEEE-754 STANDARD FOR FLOATING POINT ARITHMETIC

        • IEEE 754-2008 revision

        And how they are problematic:




        • Consistency of Floating Point Results or Why doesn’t my application always give the same answer?.


        • Cross-Platform Issues With Floating-Point Arithmetics in C++.


        • The pitfalls of verifying floating-point computations.


        • Is floating point math deterministic?.


        • What could cause a deterministic process to generate floating point errors.


        • Consistency: how to defeat the purpose of IEEE floating point.

        For abstract. At least, on a single thread, the same operations, with the same data, happening in the same order, should be deterministic. Thus, we can start by worrying about inputs, and reordering.




        One such input that causes problems is time.



        Firat of all, you should always compute the same timestep. I am not saying to not measure time, I am saying that you will not pass time to the physics simulation, because variations in time are a source of noise in the simulation.



        Why do you measure time if you are not passing it to the physics simulation? You want to measure the elapsed time to know when a simulation step should be called, and - assuming you are using sleep - how much time to sleep.



        Thus:



        • Measure time: Yes

        • Use time in simulation: No


        Now, instruction reordering. There are two sources of reordering: 1) the CPU...



        It is possible to ensure that instructions happen in the same order in each CPU core, up until the point where they need to interact. The problem is as follows: if a CPU core needs to do an instruction that requires a value that has to be retrieved from the cache of another core, it is likely that it will pospone that instruction to one that uses values that are in its own cache, while it waits for the value from the other core.



        Physics has plenty of opportunities for parallelism. However, if you want to avoid these problems - and keep the code easy to follow anyway - have your physics be single threaded.



        Addendum: This reminds me, you want to miminize trips to RAM. They have a similar effect on the instruction order and a bigger effect on performance.



        Thus:



        • Single threaded: Yes

        • Optimize for CPU cache: Yes


        ... and 2) the compiler.



        It could decide that f * a + b is the same as b + f * a, however that may have a different result. It could also compile to fmadd, or it could decide take multiple lines like that that happen togheter and write them with SIMD, or some other optimization I cannot think of right now. And remember we want the same operations to happen on the same order, it comes to reason that we want to control what operations happen.



        And no, using double will not save you.



        You need to worry about the compiler and its configuration, in particular to synchronize floating point numbers across the network. You need to get the builds to agree to do the same thing.



        Arguebly, writing assembly would be ideal. That way you decide what operation to do. However, that could be a problem for supporting multiple platforms.



        Thus:



        • Ern... Hmm... Use a compiler that let you configure how they deal with floating point numbers. For example see /fp (Specify floating-point behavior)
          .


        That brings me to different idea: keep your values small and truncate the results.



        Due to the way floats are represented in memory, large values are going to lose precision. It comes to reason that keeping your values small (clamp) mitigates the problem. Thus, no huge speeds and no large rooms. Which also means you can use discrete physics because you have less risk of tunneling.



        On the other hand, small errors will accumulate. So, truncate. I mean, scale and cast to an integer type. That way you know nothing is building up. There will be operations you can do staying with the integer type. When you need to go back to floating point you cast and unscale.



        Note I say scale. The idea is that 1 unit will actually be represented as a power of two (16384 for example). Whatever it is, make it a constant and use it. You are basically using it as fixed point number. In fact, if you can use proper fixed point numbers from some reliable library much better.



        I am saying truncate. About the rounding problem, it means you cannot trust the last bit of whaever value you got after the cast. So, before the cast scale to get one bit more than you need, and truncate it afterwads.



        Thus:



        • Keep values small: Yes

        • Careful rounding: Yes

        • Fixed point numbers when possible: Yes


        Wait, why do you need floating point? Could you not work only with an integer type? Oh, right. Trigonometry and radication. You can compute tables for trigonometry and radication and have them baked in your source. Or you can implement the algorithms used to compute them with floating point number, except using fixed point numbers instead. Yes, you need to balance memory, performance and precision. Yet, you could stay out of floating point numbers, and stay deterministic.



        Did you know they did stuff like that for the original PlayStation? Please Meet My Dog, Patches.



        By the way, I am not saying to not use floating point for graphics. Just for the physics. I mean, sure, the positions will depend on the physics. However, as you know a collider does not have to match a model. We do not want to see the results of truncation of the models.



        Thus: USE FIXED POINT NUMBERS.




        See also:



        • 3D Graphics on Mobile Devices - Part 2: Fixed Point Math

        • The neglected art of Fixed Point arithmetic

        • CORDIC Algorithm Simulation Code





        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        I will end up saying to use fixed point number. However, this is a ride I am taking you on.




        Floating point is deterministic. Well, it should be. It is complicated.



        There is plenty of literature on floating point numbers:



        • What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic

        • THE NEW IEEE-754 STANDARD FOR FLOATING POINT ARITHMETIC

        • IEEE 754-2008 revision

        And how they are problematic:




        • Consistency of Floating Point Results or Why doesn’t my application always give the same answer?.


        • Cross-Platform Issues With Floating-Point Arithmetics in C++.


        • The pitfalls of verifying floating-point computations.


        • Is floating point math deterministic?.


        • What could cause a deterministic process to generate floating point errors.


        • Consistency: how to defeat the purpose of IEEE floating point.

        For abstract. At least, on a single thread, the same operations, with the same data, happening in the same order, should be deterministic. Thus, we can start by worrying about inputs, and reordering.




        One such input that causes problems is time.



        Firat of all, you should always compute the same timestep. I am not saying to not measure time, I am saying that you will not pass time to the physics simulation, because variations in time are a source of noise in the simulation.



        Why do you measure time if you are not passing it to the physics simulation? You want to measure the elapsed time to know when a simulation step should be called, and - assuming you are using sleep - how much time to sleep.



        Thus:



        • Measure time: Yes

        • Use time in simulation: No


        Now, instruction reordering. There are two sources of reordering: 1) the CPU...



        It is possible to ensure that instructions happen in the same order in each CPU core, up until the point where they need to interact. The problem is as follows: if a CPU core needs to do an instruction that requires a value that has to be retrieved from the cache of another core, it is likely that it will pospone that instruction to one that uses values that are in its own cache, while it waits for the value from the other core.



        Physics has plenty of opportunities for parallelism. However, if you want to avoid these problems - and keep the code easy to follow anyway - have your physics be single threaded.



        Addendum: This reminds me, you want to miminize trips to RAM. They have a similar effect on the instruction order and a bigger effect on performance.



        Thus:



        • Single threaded: Yes

        • Optimize for CPU cache: Yes


        ... and 2) the compiler.



        It could decide that f * a + b is the same as b + f * a, however that may have a different result. It could also compile to fmadd, or it could decide take multiple lines like that that happen togheter and write them with SIMD, or some other optimization I cannot think of right now. And remember we want the same operations to happen on the same order, it comes to reason that we want to control what operations happen.



        And no, using double will not save you.



        You need to worry about the compiler and its configuration, in particular to synchronize floating point numbers across the network. You need to get the builds to agree to do the same thing.



        Arguebly, writing assembly would be ideal. That way you decide what operation to do. However, that could be a problem for supporting multiple platforms.



        Thus:



        • Ern... Hmm... Use a compiler that let you configure how they deal with floating point numbers. For example see /fp (Specify floating-point behavior)
          .


        That brings me to different idea: keep your values small and truncate the results.



        Due to the way floats are represented in memory, large values are going to lose precision. It comes to reason that keeping your values small (clamp) mitigates the problem. Thus, no huge speeds and no large rooms. Which also means you can use discrete physics because you have less risk of tunneling.



        On the other hand, small errors will accumulate. So, truncate. I mean, scale and cast to an integer type. That way you know nothing is building up. There will be operations you can do staying with the integer type. When you need to go back to floating point you cast and unscale.



        Note I say scale. The idea is that 1 unit will actually be represented as a power of two (16384 for example). Whatever it is, make it a constant and use it. You are basically using it as fixed point number. In fact, if you can use proper fixed point numbers from some reliable library much better.



        I am saying truncate. About the rounding problem, it means you cannot trust the last bit of whaever value you got after the cast. So, before the cast scale to get one bit more than you need, and truncate it afterwads.



        Thus:



        • Keep values small: Yes

        • Careful rounding: Yes

        • Fixed point numbers when possible: Yes


        Wait, why do you need floating point? Could you not work only with an integer type? Oh, right. Trigonometry and radication. You can compute tables for trigonometry and radication and have them baked in your source. Or you can implement the algorithms used to compute them with floating point number, except using fixed point numbers instead. Yes, you need to balance memory, performance and precision. Yet, you could stay out of floating point numbers, and stay deterministic.



        Did you know they did stuff like that for the original PlayStation? Please Meet My Dog, Patches.



        By the way, I am not saying to not use floating point for graphics. Just for the physics. I mean, sure, the positions will depend on the physics. However, as you know a collider does not have to match a model. We do not want to see the results of truncation of the models.



        Thus: USE FIXED POINT NUMBERS.




        See also:



        • 3D Graphics on Mobile Devices - Part 2: Fixed Point Math

        • The neglected art of Fixed Point arithmetic

        • CORDIC Algorithm Simulation Code






        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 43 mins ago

























        answered 1 hour ago









        TheraotTheraot

        7,4993 gold badges19 silver badges28 bronze badges




        7,4993 gold badges19 silver badges28 bronze badges


























            0












            $begingroup$

            Use double floating point precision, instead of single floating point precision. Although not perfect, it is accurate enough to be deemed deterministic in your physics.



            If you truly need perfect determinism, use fixed point math. This will give you less precision, but deterministic results. I am not aware of any physics engines that use fixed point math, so you may need to write your own if you wanted to go this route. (Something I would advise against.)






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              I recommend my other answer over this answer: gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/174324/41345
              $endgroup$
              – Evorlor
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              The double-precision approach runs afoul of the butterfly effect. In a dynamical system (like a physics sim), even a tiny deviation in initial conditions can amplify through feedback, snowballing up to a perceptible error. All the extra digits do is delay this a little longer - forcing the snowball to roll a bit further before it gets big enough to cause problems.
              $endgroup$
              – DMGregory
              3 hours ago
















            0












            $begingroup$

            Use double floating point precision, instead of single floating point precision. Although not perfect, it is accurate enough to be deemed deterministic in your physics.



            If you truly need perfect determinism, use fixed point math. This will give you less precision, but deterministic results. I am not aware of any physics engines that use fixed point math, so you may need to write your own if you wanted to go this route. (Something I would advise against.)






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              I recommend my other answer over this answer: gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/174324/41345
              $endgroup$
              – Evorlor
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              The double-precision approach runs afoul of the butterfly effect. In a dynamical system (like a physics sim), even a tiny deviation in initial conditions can amplify through feedback, snowballing up to a perceptible error. All the extra digits do is delay this a little longer - forcing the snowball to roll a bit further before it gets big enough to cause problems.
              $endgroup$
              – DMGregory
              3 hours ago














            0












            0








            0





            $begingroup$

            Use double floating point precision, instead of single floating point precision. Although not perfect, it is accurate enough to be deemed deterministic in your physics.



            If you truly need perfect determinism, use fixed point math. This will give you less precision, but deterministic results. I am not aware of any physics engines that use fixed point math, so you may need to write your own if you wanted to go this route. (Something I would advise against.)






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Use double floating point precision, instead of single floating point precision. Although not perfect, it is accurate enough to be deemed deterministic in your physics.



            If you truly need perfect determinism, use fixed point math. This will give you less precision, but deterministic results. I am not aware of any physics engines that use fixed point math, so you may need to write your own if you wanted to go this route. (Something I would advise against.)







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 5 hours ago

























            answered 5 hours ago









            EvorlorEvorlor

            2,5064 gold badges27 silver badges70 bronze badges




            2,5064 gold badges27 silver badges70 bronze badges














            • $begingroup$
              I recommend my other answer over this answer: gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/174324/41345
              $endgroup$
              – Evorlor
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              The double-precision approach runs afoul of the butterfly effect. In a dynamical system (like a physics sim), even a tiny deviation in initial conditions can amplify through feedback, snowballing up to a perceptible error. All the extra digits do is delay this a little longer - forcing the snowball to roll a bit further before it gets big enough to cause problems.
              $endgroup$
              – DMGregory
              3 hours ago

















            • $begingroup$
              I recommend my other answer over this answer: gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/174324/41345
              $endgroup$
              – Evorlor
              5 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              The double-precision approach runs afoul of the butterfly effect. In a dynamical system (like a physics sim), even a tiny deviation in initial conditions can amplify through feedback, snowballing up to a perceptible error. All the extra digits do is delay this a little longer - forcing the snowball to roll a bit further before it gets big enough to cause problems.
              $endgroup$
              – DMGregory
              3 hours ago
















            $begingroup$
            I recommend my other answer over this answer: gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/174324/41345
            $endgroup$
            – Evorlor
            5 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            I recommend my other answer over this answer: gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/174324/41345
            $endgroup$
            – Evorlor
            5 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            The double-precision approach runs afoul of the butterfly effect. In a dynamical system (like a physics sim), even a tiny deviation in initial conditions can amplify through feedback, snowballing up to a perceptible error. All the extra digits do is delay this a little longer - forcing the snowball to roll a bit further before it gets big enough to cause problems.
            $endgroup$
            – DMGregory
            3 hours ago





            $begingroup$
            The double-precision approach runs afoul of the butterfly effect. In a dynamical system (like a physics sim), even a tiny deviation in initial conditions can amplify through feedback, snowballing up to a perceptible error. All the extra digits do is delay this a little longer - forcing the snowball to roll a bit further before it gets big enough to cause problems.
            $endgroup$
            – DMGregory
            3 hours ago












            0












            $begingroup$

            Use the Memento Pattern.



            In your initial run, save off the positional data each frame, or whatever benchmarks you need. If that is too unperformance, only do it every n frames.



            Then when you reproduce the simulation, follow the arbitrary physics, but update the positional data every n frames.



            Overly simplified pseudo-code:



            function Update():
            if(firstRun) then (SaveData(frame, position));
            else if(reproducedRun) then (this.position = GetData(frame));





            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              I don't think this works for OP's case. Let's say you and I are both playing the game on different systems. Each of us places the puzzle pieces in the same way - a solution that was not predicted in advance by the developer. When you click "start," your PC simulates the physics such that the solution is successful. When I do the same, some small difference in the simulation leads to my (identical) solution not being graded as successful. Here, I don't have the opportunity to consult the memento from your successful run, because it happened on your machine, not at dev time.
              $endgroup$
              – DMGregory
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @DMGregory That's correct. Thank you.
              $endgroup$
              – jvn91173
              2 hours ago















            0












            $begingroup$

            Use the Memento Pattern.



            In your initial run, save off the positional data each frame, or whatever benchmarks you need. If that is too unperformance, only do it every n frames.



            Then when you reproduce the simulation, follow the arbitrary physics, but update the positional data every n frames.



            Overly simplified pseudo-code:



            function Update():
            if(firstRun) then (SaveData(frame, position));
            else if(reproducedRun) then (this.position = GetData(frame));





            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              I don't think this works for OP's case. Let's say you and I are both playing the game on different systems. Each of us places the puzzle pieces in the same way - a solution that was not predicted in advance by the developer. When you click "start," your PC simulates the physics such that the solution is successful. When I do the same, some small difference in the simulation leads to my (identical) solution not being graded as successful. Here, I don't have the opportunity to consult the memento from your successful run, because it happened on your machine, not at dev time.
              $endgroup$
              – DMGregory
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @DMGregory That's correct. Thank you.
              $endgroup$
              – jvn91173
              2 hours ago













            0












            0








            0





            $begingroup$

            Use the Memento Pattern.



            In your initial run, save off the positional data each frame, or whatever benchmarks you need. If that is too unperformance, only do it every n frames.



            Then when you reproduce the simulation, follow the arbitrary physics, but update the positional data every n frames.



            Overly simplified pseudo-code:



            function Update():
            if(firstRun) then (SaveData(frame, position));
            else if(reproducedRun) then (this.position = GetData(frame));





            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Use the Memento Pattern.



            In your initial run, save off the positional data each frame, or whatever benchmarks you need. If that is too unperformance, only do it every n frames.



            Then when you reproduce the simulation, follow the arbitrary physics, but update the positional data every n frames.



            Overly simplified pseudo-code:



            function Update():
            if(firstRun) then (SaveData(frame, position));
            else if(reproducedRun) then (this.position = GetData(frame));






            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 5 hours ago

























            answered 5 hours ago









            EvorlorEvorlor

            2,5064 gold badges27 silver badges70 bronze badges




            2,5064 gold badges27 silver badges70 bronze badges














            • $begingroup$
              I don't think this works for OP's case. Let's say you and I are both playing the game on different systems. Each of us places the puzzle pieces in the same way - a solution that was not predicted in advance by the developer. When you click "start," your PC simulates the physics such that the solution is successful. When I do the same, some small difference in the simulation leads to my (identical) solution not being graded as successful. Here, I don't have the opportunity to consult the memento from your successful run, because it happened on your machine, not at dev time.
              $endgroup$
              – DMGregory
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @DMGregory That's correct. Thank you.
              $endgroup$
              – jvn91173
              2 hours ago
















            • $begingroup$
              I don't think this works for OP's case. Let's say you and I are both playing the game on different systems. Each of us places the puzzle pieces in the same way - a solution that was not predicted in advance by the developer. When you click "start," your PC simulates the physics such that the solution is successful. When I do the same, some small difference in the simulation leads to my (identical) solution not being graded as successful. Here, I don't have the opportunity to consult the memento from your successful run, because it happened on your machine, not at dev time.
              $endgroup$
              – DMGregory
              3 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              @DMGregory That's correct. Thank you.
              $endgroup$
              – jvn91173
              2 hours ago















            $begingroup$
            I don't think this works for OP's case. Let's say you and I are both playing the game on different systems. Each of us places the puzzle pieces in the same way - a solution that was not predicted in advance by the developer. When you click "start," your PC simulates the physics such that the solution is successful. When I do the same, some small difference in the simulation leads to my (identical) solution not being graded as successful. Here, I don't have the opportunity to consult the memento from your successful run, because it happened on your machine, not at dev time.
            $endgroup$
            – DMGregory
            3 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            I don't think this works for OP's case. Let's say you and I are both playing the game on different systems. Each of us places the puzzle pieces in the same way - a solution that was not predicted in advance by the developer. When you click "start," your PC simulates the physics such that the solution is successful. When I do the same, some small difference in the simulation leads to my (identical) solution not being graded as successful. Here, I don't have the opportunity to consult the memento from your successful run, because it happened on your machine, not at dev time.
            $endgroup$
            – DMGregory
            3 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            @DMGregory That's correct. Thank you.
            $endgroup$
            – jvn91173
            2 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            @DMGregory That's correct. Thank you.
            $endgroup$
            – jvn91173
            2 hours ago










            jvn91173 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            jvn91173 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












            jvn91173 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











            jvn91173 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














            Thanks for contributing an answer to Game Development Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fgamedev.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f174320%2fhow-can-i-perform-a-deterministic-physics-simulation%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Invision Community Contents History See also References External links Navigation menuProprietaryinvisioncommunity.comIPS Community ForumsIPS Community Forumsthis blog entry"License Changes, IP.Board 3.4, and the Future""Interview -- Matt Mecham of Ibforums""CEO Invision Power Board, Matt Mecham Is a Liar, Thief!"IPB License Explanation 1.3, 1.3.1, 2.0, and 2.1ArchivedSecurity Fixes, Updates And Enhancements For IPB 1.3.1Archived"New Demo Accounts - Invision Power Services"the original"New Default Skin"the original"Invision Power Board 3.0.0 and Applications Released"the original"Archived copy"the original"Perpetual licenses being done away with""Release Notes - Invision Power Services""Introducing: IPS Community Suite 4!"Invision Community Release Notes

            Canceling a color specificationRandomly assigning color to Graphics3D objects?Default color for Filling in Mathematica 9Coloring specific elements of sets with a prime modified order in an array plotHow to pick a color differing significantly from the colors already in a given color list?Detection of the text colorColor numbers based on their valueCan color schemes for use with ColorData include opacity specification?My dynamic color schemes

            Tom Holland Mục lục Đầu đời và giáo dục | Sự nghiệp | Cuộc sống cá nhân | Phim tham gia | Giải thưởng và đề cử | Chú thích | Liên kết ngoài | Trình đơn chuyển hướngProfile“Person Details for Thomas Stanley Holland, "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008" — FamilySearch.org”"Meet Tom Holland... the 16-year-old star of The Impossible""Schoolboy actor Tom Holland finds himself in Oscar contention for role in tsunami drama"“Naomi Watts on the Prince William and Harry's reaction to her film about the late Princess Diana”lưu trữ"Holland and Pflueger Are West End's Two New 'Billy Elliots'""I'm so envious of my son, the movie star! British writer Dominic Holland's spent 20 years trying to crack Hollywood - but he's been beaten to it by a very unlikely rival"“Richard and Margaret Povey of Jersey, Channel Islands, UK: Information about Thomas Stanley Holland”"Tom Holland to play Billy Elliot""New Billy Elliot leaving the garage"Billy Elliot the Musical - Tom Holland - Billy"A Tale of four Billys: Tom Holland""The Feel Good Factor""Thames Christian College schoolboys join Myleene Klass for The Feelgood Factor""Government launches £600,000 arts bursaries pilot""BILLY's Chapman, Holland, Gardner & Jackson-Keen Visit Prime Minister""Elton John 'blown away' by Billy Elliot fifth birthday" (video with John's interview and fragments of Holland's performance)"First News interviews Arrietty's Tom Holland"“33rd Critics' Circle Film Awards winners”“National Board of Review Current Awards”Bản gốc"Ron Howard Whaling Tale 'In The Heart Of The Sea' Casts Tom Holland"“'Spider-Man' Finds Tom Holland to Star as New Web-Slinger”lưu trữ“Captain America: Civil War (2016)”“Film Review: ‘Captain America: Civil War’”lưu trữ“‘Captain America: Civil War’ review: Choose your own avenger”lưu trữ“The Lost City of Z reviews”“Sony Pictures and Marvel Studios Find Their 'Spider-Man' Star and Director”“‘Mary Magdalene’, ‘Current War’ & ‘Wind River’ Get 2017 Release Dates From Weinstein”“Lionsgate Unleashing Daisy Ridley & Tom Holland Starrer ‘Chaos Walking’ In Cannes”“PTA's 'Master' Leads Chicago Film Critics Nominations, UPDATED: Houston and Indiana Critics Nominations”“Nominaciones Goya 2013 Telecinco Cinema – ENG”“Jameson Empire Film Awards: Martin Freeman wins best actor for performance in The Hobbit”“34th Annual Young Artist Awards”Bản gốc“Teen Choice Awards 2016—Captain America: Civil War Leads Second Wave of Nominations”“BAFTA Film Award Nominations: ‘La La Land’ Leads Race”“Saturn Awards Nominations 2017: 'Rogue One,' 'Walking Dead' Lead”Tom HollandTom HollandTom HollandTom Hollandmedia.gettyimages.comWorldCat Identities300279794no20130442900000 0004 0355 42791085670554170004732cb16706349t(data)XX5557367