Why were Er and Onan punished if they were under 20?Why does earthly punishment start at 13 and divine punishment at 20?Why does a girl become Bat Mitzvah at 12 years old?What is the meaning of psak?Why wasn't Aharon punished for making the Golden CalfWhat were Naomi's sins?Does a Jewish woman married to a non-Jew need to cover her hair?What factors were used for determining leap years while the Israelites were in the desert?What teshuvot address educating children on inappropriate touch?Why were Er and Onan punished?What is gidul bonim (raising children), and who is responsible for itCan a Judge Issue a Ruling After his Death?
Integer Lists of Noah
How can I calculate the sum of 2 random dice out of a 3d6 pool in AnyDice?
How to memorize multiple pieces?
Print the last, middle and first character of your code
Managing and organizing the massively increased number of classes after switching to SOLID?
How can one write good dialogue in a story without sounding wooden?
What steps should I take to lawfully visit the United States as a tourist immediately after visiting on a B-1 visa?
How can a dictatorship government be beneficial to a dictator in a post-scarcity society?
How were Martello towers supposed to work?
Find image dimensions without importing the full image?
Why was hardware diversification an asset for the IBM PC ecosystem?
Does throwing a penny at a train stop the train?
The monorail explodes before I can get on it
Is there any word for "disobedience to God"?
Received a dinner invitation through my employer's email, is it ok to attend?
Why does the U.S. tolerate foreign influence from Saudi Arabia and Israel on its domestic policies while not tolerating that from China or Russia?
Sending less data than the TCP buffer could take
Changing trains in the Netherlands
US Civil War story: man hanged from a bridge
Is Trump personally blocking people on Twitter?
Why do players in the past play much longer tournaments than today's top players?
Confirming the Identity of a (Friendly) Reviewer After the Reviews
How to properly say "bail on somebody" in German?
Generating random numbers that keep a minimum distance
Why were Er and Onan punished if they were under 20?
Why does earthly punishment start at 13 and divine punishment at 20?Why does a girl become Bat Mitzvah at 12 years old?What is the meaning of psak?Why wasn't Aharon punished for making the Golden CalfWhat were Naomi's sins?Does a Jewish woman married to a non-Jew need to cover her hair?What factors were used for determining leap years while the Israelites were in the desert?What teshuvot address educating children on inappropriate touch?Why were Er and Onan punished?What is gidul bonim (raising children), and who is responsible for itCan a Judge Issue a Ruling After his Death?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
As seen from this question, the Heavenly Court does not punish an individual (at least in this life) if he or she is under 20.
However, according to Seder Hadoros (Year 2217) Er and Onan were 7 or 8 years old when G-d slew them for wasting seed.
So, if the Heavenly Court does not punish individuals under 20 why were Er and Onan punished when they were only 7 or 8 years old?
halacha halacha-theory reward-punishment capital-punishment heaven
add a comment |
As seen from this question, the Heavenly Court does not punish an individual (at least in this life) if he or she is under 20.
However, according to Seder Hadoros (Year 2217) Er and Onan were 7 or 8 years old when G-d slew them for wasting seed.
So, if the Heavenly Court does not punish individuals under 20 why were Er and Onan punished when they were only 7 or 8 years old?
halacha halacha-theory reward-punishment capital-punishment heaven
just to strengthen your question. before matan torah the age of punishment was 100 - chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8169/showrashi/true#v32
– Menachem
3 hours ago
@Menachem Rashi and Ramban in their commentaries on Bereishit 23 mention that Sarah was free from sin at 100 as she was at 20 i.e. at that time this rule already applied
– Dan Weisberg
7 mins ago
add a comment |
As seen from this question, the Heavenly Court does not punish an individual (at least in this life) if he or she is under 20.
However, according to Seder Hadoros (Year 2217) Er and Onan were 7 or 8 years old when G-d slew them for wasting seed.
So, if the Heavenly Court does not punish individuals under 20 why were Er and Onan punished when they were only 7 or 8 years old?
halacha halacha-theory reward-punishment capital-punishment heaven
As seen from this question, the Heavenly Court does not punish an individual (at least in this life) if he or she is under 20.
However, according to Seder Hadoros (Year 2217) Er and Onan were 7 or 8 years old when G-d slew them for wasting seed.
So, if the Heavenly Court does not punish individuals under 20 why were Er and Onan punished when they were only 7 or 8 years old?
halacha halacha-theory reward-punishment capital-punishment heaven
halacha halacha-theory reward-punishment capital-punishment heaven
asked 11 hours ago
Dan WeisbergDan Weisberg
4538 bronze badges
4538 bronze badges
just to strengthen your question. before matan torah the age of punishment was 100 - chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8169/showrashi/true#v32
– Menachem
3 hours ago
@Menachem Rashi and Ramban in their commentaries on Bereishit 23 mention that Sarah was free from sin at 100 as she was at 20 i.e. at that time this rule already applied
– Dan Weisberg
7 mins ago
add a comment |
just to strengthen your question. before matan torah the age of punishment was 100 - chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8169/showrashi/true#v32
– Menachem
3 hours ago
@Menachem Rashi and Ramban in their commentaries on Bereishit 23 mention that Sarah was free from sin at 100 as she was at 20 i.e. at that time this rule already applied
– Dan Weisberg
7 mins ago
just to strengthen your question. before matan torah the age of punishment was 100 - chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8169/showrashi/true#v32
– Menachem
3 hours ago
just to strengthen your question. before matan torah the age of punishment was 100 - chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8169/showrashi/true#v32
– Menachem
3 hours ago
@Menachem Rashi and Ramban in their commentaries on Bereishit 23 mention that Sarah was free from sin at 100 as she was at 20 i.e. at that time this rule already applied
– Dan Weisberg
7 mins ago
@Menachem Rashi and Ramban in their commentaries on Bereishit 23 mention that Sarah was free from sin at 100 as she was at 20 i.e. at that time this rule already applied
– Dan Weisberg
7 mins ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
This exact question was asked by the Tosafist R. Yehuda Ben Elazar in his commentary to Genesis 38:10:
וא"ת למה נענשו ער ואונן והלא לא היו אלא בני ח' שנה כדאי' בסדר עולם ואמרי' בית דין של מעלה אין מענישין עד כ' שנה ותירץ ר' יהודה החסיד דאין הדבר תלוי אלא בדעת ובמחשבה כי יש פחות מי"ג שנה ערום בדעת ובמחשבה לרעה או לטובה
Why were Er and Onan punished? Weren't they only 8 years old as [mentioned] in Seder Olam, and we say that the Divine Court doesn't punish until [the age of] 20 years?
And R. Yehuda HaChasid answered that the matter is only dependent on intellect and thought, for there are those younger than 13 years who are subtle in intellect and thought [whether] to bad or to good.
Another Tosafist, R. Avigdor Tzarfati, asked the same question and gave the same answer and also suggested an additional answer:
וקשה והלא ער ואונן לא היו כ"א בני ח' שנים או ט' ולא הגיע עדיין לכלל עונשין א"כ למה נענשו והא אמרינן דאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא מבן עשרים וי"ל כך דיני שמים דעונשין אדם לפי חכמתו בין שהוא גדול ואם קטן בן ט' חכם כבן עשרים עונשין אותו וראיה משמואל הנביא שרצה עלי הכהן להענישו בעבור שהורה הלכה בפני רבו אע"פ שלא היה כ"א בן ג' שנים [עוד י"ל] דהא דאמרי' שאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא עד שיהא בן כ' זה ר"ל בגזירה גזירה גדולה כששופט אומה אחת ביחד אז מונה מכ' שנים ולמעלה ודן אותם אחר הרוב או לעתיד לבא (כשיצא) [כשיצחק ימליץ] טוב על ישראל אז לא יזכור אלא מבן כ' ולמעלה אבל אדם אחד אפי' פחות מי"ג עונשין אותו למעלה וכן לטובה
And it is difficult – weren't Er and Onan only 8 or 9 years old, and they hadn't yet attained punishable status? If so, why were they punished? We say that Heaven only punishes from age 20!
We could say that the rules of Heaven are that they punish a person based on his knowledge, whether [or not] he is an adult, and if a 9 year old minor is as knowledgeable as a 20 year old they punish him.
And the proof is from Samuel the prophet, for Eli the priest wanted to punish him for ruling on a matter of law in the presence of his teacher, even though he was only 3 years old.
We can further say that that which Heaven doesn't punish until age 20 is when there is a major decree and a nation is being judged as one. Then they count from 20 years and above and judge them based on the majority. Or in the future when Isaac advocates in defense of Israel then they will only mention from age 20 and above. But an individual person even younger than 13 can be punished by Heaven, and the same [applies] for good.
Do you prefer the Sefaria link to the Riva?
– robev
3 hours ago
@robev judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5015/… judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5016/13438
– Alex
3 hours ago
add a comment |
In Kallah Rabasi 4:6
it mentions the fact that Er and Onan were punished by heavenly court, followed by the fact that children can reach lofty levels. The Nachlas Yaakov, a commentary printed on the side there in the Gemara, writes that the connection between the two points of the Brasisa, is to answer your question. The reason why these children were punished, is because if they were advanced enough to reach high levels, they are mature enough to be punished as well.
ונ"ל הא דמייתי האי דרשה הכא בא ליישב שלא תקשה היכא ילפינן מער שחייב מיתה הא ער ואונן קטנים היו וא"כ ע"כ לאו משום חטאן מתו דלאו בני עונשין נינהו מש"ה מביא ראיה דקטנים מקבלין פני השכינה וא"כ מסתברא דנענשו נמי כשיחטאו
add a comment |
This question was asked by many authorities. For example, the Chacham Tzvi § 49.
He says that there are those that suggest it was because of their intellectual maturity. Even though they were minors, they were mentally responsible for their actions like an adult. The Dovev Mesharim ed. of the Chacham Tzvi points to the Sefer Chassidim (Makitzei Nirdamim ed., based on Italian manuscripts) § 217 who says this answer (you can also see a different version quoted in @Alex's answer).
קטן שחילל שבת אינו נהרג וקטן שהורה לפני רבו חייב מיתה כשמואל לעלי, אלא כשאמרה חנה (ש"א א כז) אל הנער הזה התפללתי, הרי משמים מענישין קטן הואיל ודעתו כגדול כער ואונן
However, the Chacham Tzvi rejects this approach. Instead, he wants to limit the scope of this concept. He gives four approaches on how to limit it (see here for a summary), as he is bothered how could someone commit crimes as a minor and not be punished in the world to come. However, three of them don't address Er and Onan. The one that does is that the concept that Heavenly punishment is only above twenty is that we sometimes see this to be true.
Someone I found who tries to use the Chacham Tzvi's rejected approach is Rav Dovid Kronglass (former Mashgiach at Yeshivas Ner Yisroel) in Sichos Chochmah UMussar II § 50. He builds off the Chavos Yair § 166, who explains this concept to only apply to "mitzvos sichliyos", intuitive mitzvos. Something someone can figure out on their own, they're punished for, even as a child. He gives the example of machlokes, where we see the babies of Korach and his assembly were punished. This is pointed out in various sources:
Bamidbar Rabbah 18:4; Midrash Tanchuma Korach § 3:
כַּמָּה קָשָׁה הַמַּחֲלֹקֶת, שֶׁבֵּית דִּין שֶׁל מַעְלָה אֵין קוֹנְסִין אֶלָּא מִבֶּן עֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה, וּבֵית דִּין שֶׁל מַטָּה מִבֶּן שְׁלֹשׁ עֶשְׂרֵה. וּבְמַחֲלֻקְתּוֹ שֶׁל קֹרַח, תִּינוֹקוֹת בֶּן יוֹמָן נִשְׂרְפוּ וְנִבְלְעוּ בִּשְׁאוֹל תַּחְתִּית
How harmful is dissension! An emissary of the court on high only imposes a penalty [on people] from the age of twenty years, while the court below [only imposes a penalty] from the age of thirteen years. In the case of Korah's dissension, however, one-day-old babies were burned and swallowed up in nethermost Sheol
Machlokes is intuitively negative. However, prohibitions that are explicit are equally punished by Heaven and Earth starting at the ages of 12/13. Rav Kronglass says the Chasam Sofer (YD 155) writes somewhat similar to this:
בשרה נאמר בת עשרים כבת ז' בלא חטא התם קודם מ"ת הוה והכל אצלה כמצות שכליות וע"ז נאמרו שיעורי' הללו
As well, Rav Kronglass points out that this explains why children died during the flood, and why children in Sedom were punished. Both those events involved mitzvos sichliyos.
Rav Kronglass takes this differentiation and uses it to explain Er and Onan. He says that it can't be that their sin was part of the mitzvos sichliyos, so that means someone thirteen and above should be punished by Heaven. However, as you pointed out, they were even younger than that. He says that their intelligence was that of someone over the age of thirteen, so they were punished by Heaven by that standard.
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
This exact question was asked by the Tosafist R. Yehuda Ben Elazar in his commentary to Genesis 38:10:
וא"ת למה נענשו ער ואונן והלא לא היו אלא בני ח' שנה כדאי' בסדר עולם ואמרי' בית דין של מעלה אין מענישין עד כ' שנה ותירץ ר' יהודה החסיד דאין הדבר תלוי אלא בדעת ובמחשבה כי יש פחות מי"ג שנה ערום בדעת ובמחשבה לרעה או לטובה
Why were Er and Onan punished? Weren't they only 8 years old as [mentioned] in Seder Olam, and we say that the Divine Court doesn't punish until [the age of] 20 years?
And R. Yehuda HaChasid answered that the matter is only dependent on intellect and thought, for there are those younger than 13 years who are subtle in intellect and thought [whether] to bad or to good.
Another Tosafist, R. Avigdor Tzarfati, asked the same question and gave the same answer and also suggested an additional answer:
וקשה והלא ער ואונן לא היו כ"א בני ח' שנים או ט' ולא הגיע עדיין לכלל עונשין א"כ למה נענשו והא אמרינן דאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא מבן עשרים וי"ל כך דיני שמים דעונשין אדם לפי חכמתו בין שהוא גדול ואם קטן בן ט' חכם כבן עשרים עונשין אותו וראיה משמואל הנביא שרצה עלי הכהן להענישו בעבור שהורה הלכה בפני רבו אע"פ שלא היה כ"א בן ג' שנים [עוד י"ל] דהא דאמרי' שאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא עד שיהא בן כ' זה ר"ל בגזירה גזירה גדולה כששופט אומה אחת ביחד אז מונה מכ' שנים ולמעלה ודן אותם אחר הרוב או לעתיד לבא (כשיצא) [כשיצחק ימליץ] טוב על ישראל אז לא יזכור אלא מבן כ' ולמעלה אבל אדם אחד אפי' פחות מי"ג עונשין אותו למעלה וכן לטובה
And it is difficult – weren't Er and Onan only 8 or 9 years old, and they hadn't yet attained punishable status? If so, why were they punished? We say that Heaven only punishes from age 20!
We could say that the rules of Heaven are that they punish a person based on his knowledge, whether [or not] he is an adult, and if a 9 year old minor is as knowledgeable as a 20 year old they punish him.
And the proof is from Samuel the prophet, for Eli the priest wanted to punish him for ruling on a matter of law in the presence of his teacher, even though he was only 3 years old.
We can further say that that which Heaven doesn't punish until age 20 is when there is a major decree and a nation is being judged as one. Then they count from 20 years and above and judge them based on the majority. Or in the future when Isaac advocates in defense of Israel then they will only mention from age 20 and above. But an individual person even younger than 13 can be punished by Heaven, and the same [applies] for good.
Do you prefer the Sefaria link to the Riva?
– robev
3 hours ago
@robev judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5015/… judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5016/13438
– Alex
3 hours ago
add a comment |
This exact question was asked by the Tosafist R. Yehuda Ben Elazar in his commentary to Genesis 38:10:
וא"ת למה נענשו ער ואונן והלא לא היו אלא בני ח' שנה כדאי' בסדר עולם ואמרי' בית דין של מעלה אין מענישין עד כ' שנה ותירץ ר' יהודה החסיד דאין הדבר תלוי אלא בדעת ובמחשבה כי יש פחות מי"ג שנה ערום בדעת ובמחשבה לרעה או לטובה
Why were Er and Onan punished? Weren't they only 8 years old as [mentioned] in Seder Olam, and we say that the Divine Court doesn't punish until [the age of] 20 years?
And R. Yehuda HaChasid answered that the matter is only dependent on intellect and thought, for there are those younger than 13 years who are subtle in intellect and thought [whether] to bad or to good.
Another Tosafist, R. Avigdor Tzarfati, asked the same question and gave the same answer and also suggested an additional answer:
וקשה והלא ער ואונן לא היו כ"א בני ח' שנים או ט' ולא הגיע עדיין לכלל עונשין א"כ למה נענשו והא אמרינן דאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא מבן עשרים וי"ל כך דיני שמים דעונשין אדם לפי חכמתו בין שהוא גדול ואם קטן בן ט' חכם כבן עשרים עונשין אותו וראיה משמואל הנביא שרצה עלי הכהן להענישו בעבור שהורה הלכה בפני רבו אע"פ שלא היה כ"א בן ג' שנים [עוד י"ל] דהא דאמרי' שאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא עד שיהא בן כ' זה ר"ל בגזירה גזירה גדולה כששופט אומה אחת ביחד אז מונה מכ' שנים ולמעלה ודן אותם אחר הרוב או לעתיד לבא (כשיצא) [כשיצחק ימליץ] טוב על ישראל אז לא יזכור אלא מבן כ' ולמעלה אבל אדם אחד אפי' פחות מי"ג עונשין אותו למעלה וכן לטובה
And it is difficult – weren't Er and Onan only 8 or 9 years old, and they hadn't yet attained punishable status? If so, why were they punished? We say that Heaven only punishes from age 20!
We could say that the rules of Heaven are that they punish a person based on his knowledge, whether [or not] he is an adult, and if a 9 year old minor is as knowledgeable as a 20 year old they punish him.
And the proof is from Samuel the prophet, for Eli the priest wanted to punish him for ruling on a matter of law in the presence of his teacher, even though he was only 3 years old.
We can further say that that which Heaven doesn't punish until age 20 is when there is a major decree and a nation is being judged as one. Then they count from 20 years and above and judge them based on the majority. Or in the future when Isaac advocates in defense of Israel then they will only mention from age 20 and above. But an individual person even younger than 13 can be punished by Heaven, and the same [applies] for good.
Do you prefer the Sefaria link to the Riva?
– robev
3 hours ago
@robev judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5015/… judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5016/13438
– Alex
3 hours ago
add a comment |
This exact question was asked by the Tosafist R. Yehuda Ben Elazar in his commentary to Genesis 38:10:
וא"ת למה נענשו ער ואונן והלא לא היו אלא בני ח' שנה כדאי' בסדר עולם ואמרי' בית דין של מעלה אין מענישין עד כ' שנה ותירץ ר' יהודה החסיד דאין הדבר תלוי אלא בדעת ובמחשבה כי יש פחות מי"ג שנה ערום בדעת ובמחשבה לרעה או לטובה
Why were Er and Onan punished? Weren't they only 8 years old as [mentioned] in Seder Olam, and we say that the Divine Court doesn't punish until [the age of] 20 years?
And R. Yehuda HaChasid answered that the matter is only dependent on intellect and thought, for there are those younger than 13 years who are subtle in intellect and thought [whether] to bad or to good.
Another Tosafist, R. Avigdor Tzarfati, asked the same question and gave the same answer and also suggested an additional answer:
וקשה והלא ער ואונן לא היו כ"א בני ח' שנים או ט' ולא הגיע עדיין לכלל עונשין א"כ למה נענשו והא אמרינן דאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא מבן עשרים וי"ל כך דיני שמים דעונשין אדם לפי חכמתו בין שהוא גדול ואם קטן בן ט' חכם כבן עשרים עונשין אותו וראיה משמואל הנביא שרצה עלי הכהן להענישו בעבור שהורה הלכה בפני רבו אע"פ שלא היה כ"א בן ג' שנים [עוד י"ל] דהא דאמרי' שאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא עד שיהא בן כ' זה ר"ל בגזירה גזירה גדולה כששופט אומה אחת ביחד אז מונה מכ' שנים ולמעלה ודן אותם אחר הרוב או לעתיד לבא (כשיצא) [כשיצחק ימליץ] טוב על ישראל אז לא יזכור אלא מבן כ' ולמעלה אבל אדם אחד אפי' פחות מי"ג עונשין אותו למעלה וכן לטובה
And it is difficult – weren't Er and Onan only 8 or 9 years old, and they hadn't yet attained punishable status? If so, why were they punished? We say that Heaven only punishes from age 20!
We could say that the rules of Heaven are that they punish a person based on his knowledge, whether [or not] he is an adult, and if a 9 year old minor is as knowledgeable as a 20 year old they punish him.
And the proof is from Samuel the prophet, for Eli the priest wanted to punish him for ruling on a matter of law in the presence of his teacher, even though he was only 3 years old.
We can further say that that which Heaven doesn't punish until age 20 is when there is a major decree and a nation is being judged as one. Then they count from 20 years and above and judge them based on the majority. Or in the future when Isaac advocates in defense of Israel then they will only mention from age 20 and above. But an individual person even younger than 13 can be punished by Heaven, and the same [applies] for good.
This exact question was asked by the Tosafist R. Yehuda Ben Elazar in his commentary to Genesis 38:10:
וא"ת למה נענשו ער ואונן והלא לא היו אלא בני ח' שנה כדאי' בסדר עולם ואמרי' בית דין של מעלה אין מענישין עד כ' שנה ותירץ ר' יהודה החסיד דאין הדבר תלוי אלא בדעת ובמחשבה כי יש פחות מי"ג שנה ערום בדעת ובמחשבה לרעה או לטובה
Why were Er and Onan punished? Weren't they only 8 years old as [mentioned] in Seder Olam, and we say that the Divine Court doesn't punish until [the age of] 20 years?
And R. Yehuda HaChasid answered that the matter is only dependent on intellect and thought, for there are those younger than 13 years who are subtle in intellect and thought [whether] to bad or to good.
Another Tosafist, R. Avigdor Tzarfati, asked the same question and gave the same answer and also suggested an additional answer:
וקשה והלא ער ואונן לא היו כ"א בני ח' שנים או ט' ולא הגיע עדיין לכלל עונשין א"כ למה נענשו והא אמרינן דאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא מבן עשרים וי"ל כך דיני שמים דעונשין אדם לפי חכמתו בין שהוא גדול ואם קטן בן ט' חכם כבן עשרים עונשין אותו וראיה משמואל הנביא שרצה עלי הכהן להענישו בעבור שהורה הלכה בפני רבו אע"פ שלא היה כ"א בן ג' שנים [עוד י"ל] דהא דאמרי' שאין עונשין מלמעלה אלא עד שיהא בן כ' זה ר"ל בגזירה גזירה גדולה כששופט אומה אחת ביחד אז מונה מכ' שנים ולמעלה ודן אותם אחר הרוב או לעתיד לבא (כשיצא) [כשיצחק ימליץ] טוב על ישראל אז לא יזכור אלא מבן כ' ולמעלה אבל אדם אחד אפי' פחות מי"ג עונשין אותו למעלה וכן לטובה
And it is difficult – weren't Er and Onan only 8 or 9 years old, and they hadn't yet attained punishable status? If so, why were they punished? We say that Heaven only punishes from age 20!
We could say that the rules of Heaven are that they punish a person based on his knowledge, whether [or not] he is an adult, and if a 9 year old minor is as knowledgeable as a 20 year old they punish him.
And the proof is from Samuel the prophet, for Eli the priest wanted to punish him for ruling on a matter of law in the presence of his teacher, even though he was only 3 years old.
We can further say that that which Heaven doesn't punish until age 20 is when there is a major decree and a nation is being judged as one. Then they count from 20 years and above and judge them based on the majority. Or in the future when Isaac advocates in defense of Israel then they will only mention from age 20 and above. But an individual person even younger than 13 can be punished by Heaven, and the same [applies] for good.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
AlexAlex
27.2k2 gold badges67 silver badges145 bronze badges
27.2k2 gold badges67 silver badges145 bronze badges
Do you prefer the Sefaria link to the Riva?
– robev
3 hours ago
@robev judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5015/… judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5016/13438
– Alex
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Do you prefer the Sefaria link to the Riva?
– robev
3 hours ago
@robev judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5015/… judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5016/13438
– Alex
3 hours ago
Do you prefer the Sefaria link to the Riva?
– robev
3 hours ago
Do you prefer the Sefaria link to the Riva?
– robev
3 hours ago
@robev judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5015/… judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5016/13438
– Alex
3 hours ago
@robev judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5015/… judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5016/13438
– Alex
3 hours ago
add a comment |
In Kallah Rabasi 4:6
it mentions the fact that Er and Onan were punished by heavenly court, followed by the fact that children can reach lofty levels. The Nachlas Yaakov, a commentary printed on the side there in the Gemara, writes that the connection between the two points of the Brasisa, is to answer your question. The reason why these children were punished, is because if they were advanced enough to reach high levels, they are mature enough to be punished as well.
ונ"ל הא דמייתי האי דרשה הכא בא ליישב שלא תקשה היכא ילפינן מער שחייב מיתה הא ער ואונן קטנים היו וא"כ ע"כ לאו משום חטאן מתו דלאו בני עונשין נינהו מש"ה מביא ראיה דקטנים מקבלין פני השכינה וא"כ מסתברא דנענשו נמי כשיחטאו
add a comment |
In Kallah Rabasi 4:6
it mentions the fact that Er and Onan were punished by heavenly court, followed by the fact that children can reach lofty levels. The Nachlas Yaakov, a commentary printed on the side there in the Gemara, writes that the connection between the two points of the Brasisa, is to answer your question. The reason why these children were punished, is because if they were advanced enough to reach high levels, they are mature enough to be punished as well.
ונ"ל הא דמייתי האי דרשה הכא בא ליישב שלא תקשה היכא ילפינן מער שחייב מיתה הא ער ואונן קטנים היו וא"כ ע"כ לאו משום חטאן מתו דלאו בני עונשין נינהו מש"ה מביא ראיה דקטנים מקבלין פני השכינה וא"כ מסתברא דנענשו נמי כשיחטאו
add a comment |
In Kallah Rabasi 4:6
it mentions the fact that Er and Onan were punished by heavenly court, followed by the fact that children can reach lofty levels. The Nachlas Yaakov, a commentary printed on the side there in the Gemara, writes that the connection between the two points of the Brasisa, is to answer your question. The reason why these children were punished, is because if they were advanced enough to reach high levels, they are mature enough to be punished as well.
ונ"ל הא דמייתי האי דרשה הכא בא ליישב שלא תקשה היכא ילפינן מער שחייב מיתה הא ער ואונן קטנים היו וא"כ ע"כ לאו משום חטאן מתו דלאו בני עונשין נינהו מש"ה מביא ראיה דקטנים מקבלין פני השכינה וא"כ מסתברא דנענשו נמי כשיחטאו
In Kallah Rabasi 4:6
it mentions the fact that Er and Onan were punished by heavenly court, followed by the fact that children can reach lofty levels. The Nachlas Yaakov, a commentary printed on the side there in the Gemara, writes that the connection between the two points of the Brasisa, is to answer your question. The reason why these children were punished, is because if they were advanced enough to reach high levels, they are mature enough to be punished as well.
ונ"ל הא דמייתי האי דרשה הכא בא ליישב שלא תקשה היכא ילפינן מער שחייב מיתה הא ער ואונן קטנים היו וא"כ ע"כ לאו משום חטאן מתו דלאו בני עונשין נינהו מש"ה מביא ראיה דקטנים מקבלין פני השכינה וא"כ מסתברא דנענשו נמי כשיחטאו
edited 6 hours ago
Double AA♦
81k6 gold badges202 silver badges447 bronze badges
81k6 gold badges202 silver badges447 bronze badges
answered 7 hours ago
פרי זהבפרי זהב
3,0474 silver badges15 bronze badges
3,0474 silver badges15 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
This question was asked by many authorities. For example, the Chacham Tzvi § 49.
He says that there are those that suggest it was because of their intellectual maturity. Even though they were minors, they were mentally responsible for their actions like an adult. The Dovev Mesharim ed. of the Chacham Tzvi points to the Sefer Chassidim (Makitzei Nirdamim ed., based on Italian manuscripts) § 217 who says this answer (you can also see a different version quoted in @Alex's answer).
קטן שחילל שבת אינו נהרג וקטן שהורה לפני רבו חייב מיתה כשמואל לעלי, אלא כשאמרה חנה (ש"א א כז) אל הנער הזה התפללתי, הרי משמים מענישין קטן הואיל ודעתו כגדול כער ואונן
However, the Chacham Tzvi rejects this approach. Instead, he wants to limit the scope of this concept. He gives four approaches on how to limit it (see here for a summary), as he is bothered how could someone commit crimes as a minor and not be punished in the world to come. However, three of them don't address Er and Onan. The one that does is that the concept that Heavenly punishment is only above twenty is that we sometimes see this to be true.
Someone I found who tries to use the Chacham Tzvi's rejected approach is Rav Dovid Kronglass (former Mashgiach at Yeshivas Ner Yisroel) in Sichos Chochmah UMussar II § 50. He builds off the Chavos Yair § 166, who explains this concept to only apply to "mitzvos sichliyos", intuitive mitzvos. Something someone can figure out on their own, they're punished for, even as a child. He gives the example of machlokes, where we see the babies of Korach and his assembly were punished. This is pointed out in various sources:
Bamidbar Rabbah 18:4; Midrash Tanchuma Korach § 3:
כַּמָּה קָשָׁה הַמַּחֲלֹקֶת, שֶׁבֵּית דִּין שֶׁל מַעְלָה אֵין קוֹנְסִין אֶלָּא מִבֶּן עֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה, וּבֵית דִּין שֶׁל מַטָּה מִבֶּן שְׁלֹשׁ עֶשְׂרֵה. וּבְמַחֲלֻקְתּוֹ שֶׁל קֹרַח, תִּינוֹקוֹת בֶּן יוֹמָן נִשְׂרְפוּ וְנִבְלְעוּ בִּשְׁאוֹל תַּחְתִּית
How harmful is dissension! An emissary of the court on high only imposes a penalty [on people] from the age of twenty years, while the court below [only imposes a penalty] from the age of thirteen years. In the case of Korah's dissension, however, one-day-old babies were burned and swallowed up in nethermost Sheol
Machlokes is intuitively negative. However, prohibitions that are explicit are equally punished by Heaven and Earth starting at the ages of 12/13. Rav Kronglass says the Chasam Sofer (YD 155) writes somewhat similar to this:
בשרה נאמר בת עשרים כבת ז' בלא חטא התם קודם מ"ת הוה והכל אצלה כמצות שכליות וע"ז נאמרו שיעורי' הללו
As well, Rav Kronglass points out that this explains why children died during the flood, and why children in Sedom were punished. Both those events involved mitzvos sichliyos.
Rav Kronglass takes this differentiation and uses it to explain Er and Onan. He says that it can't be that their sin was part of the mitzvos sichliyos, so that means someone thirteen and above should be punished by Heaven. However, as you pointed out, they were even younger than that. He says that their intelligence was that of someone over the age of thirteen, so they were punished by Heaven by that standard.
add a comment |
This question was asked by many authorities. For example, the Chacham Tzvi § 49.
He says that there are those that suggest it was because of their intellectual maturity. Even though they were minors, they were mentally responsible for their actions like an adult. The Dovev Mesharim ed. of the Chacham Tzvi points to the Sefer Chassidim (Makitzei Nirdamim ed., based on Italian manuscripts) § 217 who says this answer (you can also see a different version quoted in @Alex's answer).
קטן שחילל שבת אינו נהרג וקטן שהורה לפני רבו חייב מיתה כשמואל לעלי, אלא כשאמרה חנה (ש"א א כז) אל הנער הזה התפללתי, הרי משמים מענישין קטן הואיל ודעתו כגדול כער ואונן
However, the Chacham Tzvi rejects this approach. Instead, he wants to limit the scope of this concept. He gives four approaches on how to limit it (see here for a summary), as he is bothered how could someone commit crimes as a minor and not be punished in the world to come. However, three of them don't address Er and Onan. The one that does is that the concept that Heavenly punishment is only above twenty is that we sometimes see this to be true.
Someone I found who tries to use the Chacham Tzvi's rejected approach is Rav Dovid Kronglass (former Mashgiach at Yeshivas Ner Yisroel) in Sichos Chochmah UMussar II § 50. He builds off the Chavos Yair § 166, who explains this concept to only apply to "mitzvos sichliyos", intuitive mitzvos. Something someone can figure out on their own, they're punished for, even as a child. He gives the example of machlokes, where we see the babies of Korach and his assembly were punished. This is pointed out in various sources:
Bamidbar Rabbah 18:4; Midrash Tanchuma Korach § 3:
כַּמָּה קָשָׁה הַמַּחֲלֹקֶת, שֶׁבֵּית דִּין שֶׁל מַעְלָה אֵין קוֹנְסִין אֶלָּא מִבֶּן עֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה, וּבֵית דִּין שֶׁל מַטָּה מִבֶּן שְׁלֹשׁ עֶשְׂרֵה. וּבְמַחֲלֻקְתּוֹ שֶׁל קֹרַח, תִּינוֹקוֹת בֶּן יוֹמָן נִשְׂרְפוּ וְנִבְלְעוּ בִּשְׁאוֹל תַּחְתִּית
How harmful is dissension! An emissary of the court on high only imposes a penalty [on people] from the age of twenty years, while the court below [only imposes a penalty] from the age of thirteen years. In the case of Korah's dissension, however, one-day-old babies were burned and swallowed up in nethermost Sheol
Machlokes is intuitively negative. However, prohibitions that are explicit are equally punished by Heaven and Earth starting at the ages of 12/13. Rav Kronglass says the Chasam Sofer (YD 155) writes somewhat similar to this:
בשרה נאמר בת עשרים כבת ז' בלא חטא התם קודם מ"ת הוה והכל אצלה כמצות שכליות וע"ז נאמרו שיעורי' הללו
As well, Rav Kronglass points out that this explains why children died during the flood, and why children in Sedom were punished. Both those events involved mitzvos sichliyos.
Rav Kronglass takes this differentiation and uses it to explain Er and Onan. He says that it can't be that their sin was part of the mitzvos sichliyos, so that means someone thirteen and above should be punished by Heaven. However, as you pointed out, they were even younger than that. He says that their intelligence was that of someone over the age of thirteen, so they were punished by Heaven by that standard.
add a comment |
This question was asked by many authorities. For example, the Chacham Tzvi § 49.
He says that there are those that suggest it was because of their intellectual maturity. Even though they were minors, they were mentally responsible for their actions like an adult. The Dovev Mesharim ed. of the Chacham Tzvi points to the Sefer Chassidim (Makitzei Nirdamim ed., based on Italian manuscripts) § 217 who says this answer (you can also see a different version quoted in @Alex's answer).
קטן שחילל שבת אינו נהרג וקטן שהורה לפני רבו חייב מיתה כשמואל לעלי, אלא כשאמרה חנה (ש"א א כז) אל הנער הזה התפללתי, הרי משמים מענישין קטן הואיל ודעתו כגדול כער ואונן
However, the Chacham Tzvi rejects this approach. Instead, he wants to limit the scope of this concept. He gives four approaches on how to limit it (see here for a summary), as he is bothered how could someone commit crimes as a minor and not be punished in the world to come. However, three of them don't address Er and Onan. The one that does is that the concept that Heavenly punishment is only above twenty is that we sometimes see this to be true.
Someone I found who tries to use the Chacham Tzvi's rejected approach is Rav Dovid Kronglass (former Mashgiach at Yeshivas Ner Yisroel) in Sichos Chochmah UMussar II § 50. He builds off the Chavos Yair § 166, who explains this concept to only apply to "mitzvos sichliyos", intuitive mitzvos. Something someone can figure out on their own, they're punished for, even as a child. He gives the example of machlokes, where we see the babies of Korach and his assembly were punished. This is pointed out in various sources:
Bamidbar Rabbah 18:4; Midrash Tanchuma Korach § 3:
כַּמָּה קָשָׁה הַמַּחֲלֹקֶת, שֶׁבֵּית דִּין שֶׁל מַעְלָה אֵין קוֹנְסִין אֶלָּא מִבֶּן עֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה, וּבֵית דִּין שֶׁל מַטָּה מִבֶּן שְׁלֹשׁ עֶשְׂרֵה. וּבְמַחֲלֻקְתּוֹ שֶׁל קֹרַח, תִּינוֹקוֹת בֶּן יוֹמָן נִשְׂרְפוּ וְנִבְלְעוּ בִּשְׁאוֹל תַּחְתִּית
How harmful is dissension! An emissary of the court on high only imposes a penalty [on people] from the age of twenty years, while the court below [only imposes a penalty] from the age of thirteen years. In the case of Korah's dissension, however, one-day-old babies were burned and swallowed up in nethermost Sheol
Machlokes is intuitively negative. However, prohibitions that are explicit are equally punished by Heaven and Earth starting at the ages of 12/13. Rav Kronglass says the Chasam Sofer (YD 155) writes somewhat similar to this:
בשרה נאמר בת עשרים כבת ז' בלא חטא התם קודם מ"ת הוה והכל אצלה כמצות שכליות וע"ז נאמרו שיעורי' הללו
As well, Rav Kronglass points out that this explains why children died during the flood, and why children in Sedom were punished. Both those events involved mitzvos sichliyos.
Rav Kronglass takes this differentiation and uses it to explain Er and Onan. He says that it can't be that their sin was part of the mitzvos sichliyos, so that means someone thirteen and above should be punished by Heaven. However, as you pointed out, they were even younger than that. He says that their intelligence was that of someone over the age of thirteen, so they were punished by Heaven by that standard.
This question was asked by many authorities. For example, the Chacham Tzvi § 49.
He says that there are those that suggest it was because of their intellectual maturity. Even though they were minors, they were mentally responsible for their actions like an adult. The Dovev Mesharim ed. of the Chacham Tzvi points to the Sefer Chassidim (Makitzei Nirdamim ed., based on Italian manuscripts) § 217 who says this answer (you can also see a different version quoted in @Alex's answer).
קטן שחילל שבת אינו נהרג וקטן שהורה לפני רבו חייב מיתה כשמואל לעלי, אלא כשאמרה חנה (ש"א א כז) אל הנער הזה התפללתי, הרי משמים מענישין קטן הואיל ודעתו כגדול כער ואונן
However, the Chacham Tzvi rejects this approach. Instead, he wants to limit the scope of this concept. He gives four approaches on how to limit it (see here for a summary), as he is bothered how could someone commit crimes as a minor and not be punished in the world to come. However, three of them don't address Er and Onan. The one that does is that the concept that Heavenly punishment is only above twenty is that we sometimes see this to be true.
Someone I found who tries to use the Chacham Tzvi's rejected approach is Rav Dovid Kronglass (former Mashgiach at Yeshivas Ner Yisroel) in Sichos Chochmah UMussar II § 50. He builds off the Chavos Yair § 166, who explains this concept to only apply to "mitzvos sichliyos", intuitive mitzvos. Something someone can figure out on their own, they're punished for, even as a child. He gives the example of machlokes, where we see the babies of Korach and his assembly were punished. This is pointed out in various sources:
Bamidbar Rabbah 18:4; Midrash Tanchuma Korach § 3:
כַּמָּה קָשָׁה הַמַּחֲלֹקֶת, שֶׁבֵּית דִּין שֶׁל מַעְלָה אֵין קוֹנְסִין אֶלָּא מִבֶּן עֶשְׂרִים שָׁנָה וָמַעְלָה, וּבֵית דִּין שֶׁל מַטָּה מִבֶּן שְׁלֹשׁ עֶשְׂרֵה. וּבְמַחֲלֻקְתּוֹ שֶׁל קֹרַח, תִּינוֹקוֹת בֶּן יוֹמָן נִשְׂרְפוּ וְנִבְלְעוּ בִּשְׁאוֹל תַּחְתִּית
How harmful is dissension! An emissary of the court on high only imposes a penalty [on people] from the age of twenty years, while the court below [only imposes a penalty] from the age of thirteen years. In the case of Korah's dissension, however, one-day-old babies were burned and swallowed up in nethermost Sheol
Machlokes is intuitively negative. However, prohibitions that are explicit are equally punished by Heaven and Earth starting at the ages of 12/13. Rav Kronglass says the Chasam Sofer (YD 155) writes somewhat similar to this:
בשרה נאמר בת עשרים כבת ז' בלא חטא התם קודם מ"ת הוה והכל אצלה כמצות שכליות וע"ז נאמרו שיעורי' הללו
As well, Rav Kronglass points out that this explains why children died during the flood, and why children in Sedom were punished. Both those events involved mitzvos sichliyos.
Rav Kronglass takes this differentiation and uses it to explain Er and Onan. He says that it can't be that their sin was part of the mitzvos sichliyos, so that means someone thirteen and above should be punished by Heaven. However, as you pointed out, they were even younger than that. He says that their intelligence was that of someone over the age of thirteen, so they were punished by Heaven by that standard.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
robevrobev
7,1642 gold badges18 silver badges50 bronze badges
7,1642 gold badges18 silver badges50 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
just to strengthen your question. before matan torah the age of punishment was 100 - chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8169/showrashi/true#v32
– Menachem
3 hours ago
@Menachem Rashi and Ramban in their commentaries on Bereishit 23 mention that Sarah was free from sin at 100 as she was at 20 i.e. at that time this rule already applied
– Dan Weisberg
7 mins ago