Is it possible to have the age of the universe be unknown?If universe has an end/boundary, what else exists after the boundary?What if we lived near a boundary of the universe?Liquid universe: The beginningSlowing the Heat Death of the UniverseEscaping the universeHow does a community of a Universe Simulator have the same language as its creator?What would entropy look like in an infinite number of universes?What objects can be found in the universe when all the stars are gone?If the universe turns out to be infinite does that mean that the multiverse isn't real?The One-Electron Universe postulate is true - what simple change can I make to change the whole universe?
Is a lack of character descriptions a problem?
How to create a pyramidal panel for a door?
How can I tell the difference between unmarked sugar and stevia?
Why NewDocumentEnvironment within ExplSyntaxOn/Off removes spaces from content passed to it outside of ExplSyntaxOn/Off?
Should I give professor gift at the beginning of my PhD?
Is the term 'open source' a trademark?
How to draw a Technology Radar?
Medieval flying castle propulsion
Using "subway" as name for London Underground?
Paying more mana for a Flashed creature
Certain search in list
1980s live-action movie where individually-coloured nations on clouds fight
How do I prevent employees from either switching to competitors or opening their own business?
is it possible for a vehicle to be manufactured witout a catalitic converter
How is John Wick 3 a 15 certificate?
Thread Pool C++ Implementation
How to trick the reader into thinking they're following a redshirt instead of the protagonist?
Soft question: Examples where lack of mathematical rigour cause security breaches?
Inward extrusion is not working
A IP can traceroute to it, but can not ping
Someone whose aspirations exceed abilities or means
Is using haveibeenpwned to validate password strength rational?
How to tell your grandparent to not come to fetch you with their car?
Why can't I use =default for default ctors with a member initializer list
Is it possible to have the age of the universe be unknown?
If universe has an end/boundary, what else exists after the boundary?What if we lived near a boundary of the universe?Liquid universe: The beginningSlowing the Heat Death of the UniverseEscaping the universeHow does a community of a Universe Simulator have the same language as its creator?What would entropy look like in an infinite number of universes?What objects can be found in the universe when all the stars are gone?If the universe turns out to be infinite does that mean that the multiverse isn't real?The One-Electron Universe postulate is true - what simple change can I make to change the whole universe?
$begingroup$
I’m making a fictional galaxy, and I want the inhabitants of this galaxy to be unable to calculate the age of the universe, I want them to be unaware of how much has already happened.
I’ve already decided that most other galaxies once visible from mine, has already passed beyond the cosmological horizon, and redshifted beyond detection; leaving only a few thousand local galaxies, close enough to be gravitationally bound, to be observed.
From what I can recall from school, the age of the universe is calculated by measuring the rate at which galaxies accelerate away from each other.
So would it still be possible to calculate the age of the universe using only these local galaxies?
If it is possible, when is the point (preferably before the heat death of the universe) where determining the age of the universe becomes impossible, or at least highly inaccurate?
Or does someone have a different idea of how I can achieve this without throwing too many laws of physics out the window?
universe astrophysics
$endgroup$
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
I’m making a fictional galaxy, and I want the inhabitants of this galaxy to be unable to calculate the age of the universe, I want them to be unaware of how much has already happened.
I’ve already decided that most other galaxies once visible from mine, has already passed beyond the cosmological horizon, and redshifted beyond detection; leaving only a few thousand local galaxies, close enough to be gravitationally bound, to be observed.
From what I can recall from school, the age of the universe is calculated by measuring the rate at which galaxies accelerate away from each other.
So would it still be possible to calculate the age of the universe using only these local galaxies?
If it is possible, when is the point (preferably before the heat death of the universe) where determining the age of the universe becomes impossible, or at least highly inaccurate?
Or does someone have a different idea of how I can achieve this without throwing too many laws of physics out the window?
universe astrophysics
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
$endgroup$
– JBH
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
6 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
I’m making a fictional galaxy, and I want the inhabitants of this galaxy to be unable to calculate the age of the universe, I want them to be unaware of how much has already happened.
I’ve already decided that most other galaxies once visible from mine, has already passed beyond the cosmological horizon, and redshifted beyond detection; leaving only a few thousand local galaxies, close enough to be gravitationally bound, to be observed.
From what I can recall from school, the age of the universe is calculated by measuring the rate at which galaxies accelerate away from each other.
So would it still be possible to calculate the age of the universe using only these local galaxies?
If it is possible, when is the point (preferably before the heat death of the universe) where determining the age of the universe becomes impossible, or at least highly inaccurate?
Or does someone have a different idea of how I can achieve this without throwing too many laws of physics out the window?
universe astrophysics
$endgroup$
I’m making a fictional galaxy, and I want the inhabitants of this galaxy to be unable to calculate the age of the universe, I want them to be unaware of how much has already happened.
I’ve already decided that most other galaxies once visible from mine, has already passed beyond the cosmological horizon, and redshifted beyond detection; leaving only a few thousand local galaxies, close enough to be gravitationally bound, to be observed.
From what I can recall from school, the age of the universe is calculated by measuring the rate at which galaxies accelerate away from each other.
So would it still be possible to calculate the age of the universe using only these local galaxies?
If it is possible, when is the point (preferably before the heat death of the universe) where determining the age of the universe becomes impossible, or at least highly inaccurate?
Or does someone have a different idea of how I can achieve this without throwing too many laws of physics out the window?
universe astrophysics
universe astrophysics
edited 5 hours ago
Malady
2,16311346
2,16311346
asked 9 hours ago
NobbeNobbe
634
634
1
$begingroup$
Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
$endgroup$
– JBH
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
6 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
$begingroup$
Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
$endgroup$
– JBH
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
$endgroup$
– JBH
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
$endgroup$
– JBH
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
@JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
6 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.
Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).
If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
$endgroup$
– Whitecold
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can just have them be primitive.

Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.
Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:

Or the Horsehead:

Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
$endgroup$
– Nobbe
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First why not, and then how maybe ...
I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.
One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.
Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).
They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.
Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.
Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.
Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).
So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)
How to avoid this ...
One word : Desperation.
Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.
That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).
Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.
So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).
I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
$endgroup$
– Mike Scott
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
$endgroup$
– StephenG
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
How do we calculate the age of the universe?
A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
$$tsimfrac1H_0$$
A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
$$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:
- Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations
- Examining the sources of gravitational waves
- Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background
- Measuring gravitational lensing
- Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect
. . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.
What your setup rules out
We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.
One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.
I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.
A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "579"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f148369%2fis-it-possible-to-have-the-age-of-the-universe-be-unknown%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.
Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).
If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
$endgroup$
– Whitecold
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.
Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).
If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
$endgroup$
– Whitecold
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.
Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).
If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.
$endgroup$
The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.
Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).
If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.
answered 8 hours ago
bukwyrmbukwyrm
4,538825
4,538825
1
$begingroup$
The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
$endgroup$
– Whitecold
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
$endgroup$
– Whitecold
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
$endgroup$
– Whitecold
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
$endgroup$
– Whitecold
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.
$endgroup$
Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.
answered 8 hours ago
Mike ScottMike Scott
12.4k32452
12.4k32452
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can just have them be primitive.

Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.
Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:

Or the Horsehead:

Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
$endgroup$
– Nobbe
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can just have them be primitive.

Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.
Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:

Or the Horsehead:

Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
$endgroup$
– Nobbe
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can just have them be primitive.

Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.
Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:

Or the Horsehead:

Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.
$endgroup$
You can just have them be primitive.

Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.
Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:

Or the Horsehead:

Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
RenanRenan
58.6k16132291
58.6k16132291
$begingroup$
Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
$endgroup$
– Nobbe
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
$endgroup$
– Nobbe
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
$endgroup$
– Nobbe
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
$endgroup$
– Nobbe
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First why not, and then how maybe ...
I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.
One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.
Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).
They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.
Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.
Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.
Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).
So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)
How to avoid this ...
One word : Desperation.
Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.
That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).
Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.
So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).
I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
$endgroup$
– Mike Scott
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
$endgroup$
– StephenG
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First why not, and then how maybe ...
I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.
One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.
Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).
They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.
Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.
Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.
Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).
So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)
How to avoid this ...
One word : Desperation.
Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.
That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).
Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.
So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).
I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
$endgroup$
– Mike Scott
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
$endgroup$
– StephenG
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First why not, and then how maybe ...
I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.
One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.
Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).
They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.
Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.
Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.
Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).
So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)
How to avoid this ...
One word : Desperation.
Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.
That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).
Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.
So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).
I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.
$endgroup$
First why not, and then how maybe ...
I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.
One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.
Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).
They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.
Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.
Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.
Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).
So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)
How to avoid this ...
One word : Desperation.
Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.
That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).
Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.
So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).
I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.
answered 8 hours ago
StephenGStephenG
15.4k72156
15.4k72156
$begingroup$
But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
$endgroup$
– Mike Scott
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
$endgroup$
– StephenG
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
$endgroup$
– Mike Scott
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
$endgroup$
– StephenG
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
$endgroup$
– Mike Scott
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
$endgroup$
– Mike Scott
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
$endgroup$
– StephenG
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
$endgroup$
– StephenG
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
How do we calculate the age of the universe?
A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
$$tsimfrac1H_0$$
A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
$$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:
- Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations
- Examining the sources of gravitational waves
- Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background
- Measuring gravitational lensing
- Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect
. . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.
What your setup rules out
We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.
One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.
I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
How do we calculate the age of the universe?
A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
$$tsimfrac1H_0$$
A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
$$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:
- Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations
- Examining the sources of gravitational waves
- Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background
- Measuring gravitational lensing
- Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect
. . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.
What your setup rules out
We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.
One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.
I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
How do we calculate the age of the universe?
A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
$$tsimfrac1H_0$$
A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
$$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:
- Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations
- Examining the sources of gravitational waves
- Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background
- Measuring gravitational lensing
- Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect
. . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.
What your setup rules out
We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.
One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.
I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.
$endgroup$
How do we calculate the age of the universe?
A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
$$tsimfrac1H_0$$
A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
$$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:
- Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations
- Examining the sources of gravitational waves
- Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background
- Measuring gravitational lensing
- Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect
. . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.
What your setup rules out
We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.
One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.
I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
HDE 226868♦HDE 226868
68k15238440
68k15238440
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.
A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.
A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.
A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.
$endgroup$
Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.
A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
NosajimikiNosajimiki
5,9921537
5,9921537
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f148369%2fis-it-possible-to-have-the-age-of-the-universe-be-unknown%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
$begingroup$
Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
$endgroup$
– JBH
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
6 hours ago