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Is it possible to have the age of the universe be unknown?


If universe has an end/boundary, what else exists after the boundary?What if we lived near a boundary of the universe?Liquid universe: The beginningSlowing the Heat Death of the UniverseEscaping the universeHow does a community of a Universe Simulator have the same language as its creator?What would entropy look like in an infinite number of universes?What objects can be found in the universe when all the stars are gone?If the universe turns out to be infinite does that mean that the multiverse isn't real?The One-Electron Universe postulate is true - what simple change can I make to change the whole universe?













6












$begingroup$


I’m making a fictional galaxy, and I want the inhabitants of this galaxy to be unable to calculate the age of the universe, I want them to be unaware of how much has already happened.



I’ve already decided that most other galaxies once visible from mine, has already passed beyond the cosmological horizon, and redshifted beyond detection; leaving only a few thousand local galaxies, close enough to be gravitationally bound, to be observed.



From what I can recall from school, the age of the universe is calculated by measuring the rate at which galaxies accelerate away from each other.



So would it still be possible to calculate the age of the universe using only these local galaxies?



If it is possible, when is the point (preferably before the heat death of the universe) where determining the age of the universe becomes impossible, or at least highly inaccurate?



Or does someone have a different idea of how I can achieve this without throwing too many laws of physics out the window?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    7 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    6 hours ago
















6












$begingroup$


I’m making a fictional galaxy, and I want the inhabitants of this galaxy to be unable to calculate the age of the universe, I want them to be unaware of how much has already happened.



I’ve already decided that most other galaxies once visible from mine, has already passed beyond the cosmological horizon, and redshifted beyond detection; leaving only a few thousand local galaxies, close enough to be gravitationally bound, to be observed.



From what I can recall from school, the age of the universe is calculated by measuring the rate at which galaxies accelerate away from each other.



So would it still be possible to calculate the age of the universe using only these local galaxies?



If it is possible, when is the point (preferably before the heat death of the universe) where determining the age of the universe becomes impossible, or at least highly inaccurate?



Or does someone have a different idea of how I can achieve this without throwing too many laws of physics out the window?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    7 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    6 hours ago














6












6








6


0



$begingroup$


I’m making a fictional galaxy, and I want the inhabitants of this galaxy to be unable to calculate the age of the universe, I want them to be unaware of how much has already happened.



I’ve already decided that most other galaxies once visible from mine, has already passed beyond the cosmological horizon, and redshifted beyond detection; leaving only a few thousand local galaxies, close enough to be gravitationally bound, to be observed.



From what I can recall from school, the age of the universe is calculated by measuring the rate at which galaxies accelerate away from each other.



So would it still be possible to calculate the age of the universe using only these local galaxies?



If it is possible, when is the point (preferably before the heat death of the universe) where determining the age of the universe becomes impossible, or at least highly inaccurate?



Or does someone have a different idea of how I can achieve this without throwing too many laws of physics out the window?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I’m making a fictional galaxy, and I want the inhabitants of this galaxy to be unable to calculate the age of the universe, I want them to be unaware of how much has already happened.



I’ve already decided that most other galaxies once visible from mine, has already passed beyond the cosmological horizon, and redshifted beyond detection; leaving only a few thousand local galaxies, close enough to be gravitationally bound, to be observed.



From what I can recall from school, the age of the universe is calculated by measuring the rate at which galaxies accelerate away from each other.



So would it still be possible to calculate the age of the universe using only these local galaxies?



If it is possible, when is the point (preferably before the heat death of the universe) where determining the age of the universe becomes impossible, or at least highly inaccurate?



Or does someone have a different idea of how I can achieve this without throwing too many laws of physics out the window?







universe astrophysics






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 5 hours ago









Malady

2,16311346




2,16311346










asked 9 hours ago









NobbeNobbe

634




634







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    7 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    6 hours ago













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
    $endgroup$
    – L.Dutch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    7 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    6 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Edits should not invalidate existing answers. The edit I rolled back invalidated Renan's answer, thus is not legit.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
Well, if they are advanced enough for space travel they are advanced enough to have a good idea of the age of their solar system. Now if they are alive, their sun must be something like ours, at least a second generation star. So they have a lower bound for the age of the universe, they know that it is at least some 10 billion years old. I cannot imagine how it could possibly be important to the plot that they cannot guess that instead of 10 billion years old it is really 100 billion years old. It's not as if the galaxies which are not part of the Local Group have any influence on us.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago













$begingroup$
If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
$endgroup$
– JBH
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
If we assume your species evolved very late in the history of the universe - difficult, but probably not impossible - then we're left with the fact that while you can redshift light beyond biological visibility, you can't redshift it beyond detection. What's the tech level of your species?
$endgroup$
– JBH
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
@JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
@JBH: You cannot redshift light beyond detection, but you can expand the universe so that galaxies outside the local cluster move away faster than the speed of light so that their light will never reach us. See cosmological horizon and Hubble volume.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
7 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
@JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
6 hours ago





$begingroup$
@JBH: The galaxies do not themselves move faster than light; what happens is that the space between them expands so that the distance increases faster than light can traverse it. The largest object which is gravitationally bound so that it does not participate in universal expansion is the local cluster, which, in our case, is the Virgo Cluster -- 1300 galaxies, 54 million light years across; the members of the local cluster will always be with us, while eventually the rest of the universe will recede beyond the cosmological horizon.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
6 hours ago











6 Answers
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The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.



Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).



If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
    $endgroup$
    – Whitecold
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
    $endgroup$
    – Nosajimiki
    5 hours ago


















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Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.






share|improve this answer









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    2












    $begingroup$

    You can just have them be primitive.



    Roll safe



    Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.



    Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:



    Eagle nebula



    Or the Horsehead:



    Horsehead nebula



    Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
      $endgroup$
      – Nobbe
      8 hours ago


















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    First why not, and then how maybe ...



    I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.



    One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.



    Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).



    They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.



    Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.



    Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.



    Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).



    So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)



    How to avoid this ...



    One word : Desperation.



    Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.



    That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).



    Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.



    So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).



    I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
      $endgroup$
      – Mike Scott
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
      $endgroup$
      – StephenG
      1 hour ago


















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    $begingroup$

    How do we calculate the age of the universe?



    A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
    $$tsimfrac1H_0$$
    A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
    $$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
    There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:



    • Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations

    • Examining the sources of gravitational waves

    • Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background

    • Measuring gravitational lensing

    • Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect

    . . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.



    What your setup rules out



    We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.



    One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.



    I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$




















      0












      $begingroup$

      Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.



      A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.






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        3












        $begingroup$

        The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.



        Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).



        If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 1




          $begingroup$
          The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
          $endgroup$
          – Whitecold
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          @Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
          $endgroup$
          – Nosajimiki
          5 hours ago















        3












        $begingroup$

        The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.



        Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).



        If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 1




          $begingroup$
          The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
          $endgroup$
          – Whitecold
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          @Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
          $endgroup$
          – Nosajimiki
          5 hours ago













        3












        3








        3





        $begingroup$

        The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.



        Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).



        If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        The current 'measurements' of the age of the universe are actually measurements of some astronomical effects, that get mixed into calculations involving many constants. Most of what we know about the universe is (mostly implicitly) followed by '... if those values are indeed constant.'.



        Some weird effects are actually easier to explain when we assume the constants to be not that, i.e. slightly changing over time (or space).



        If your civilization realized that some important constant was actually variable, and a function of time that was not easily extrapolated (e.g. not a continuous function), their measurements might not be precise enough (maybe it would even be physically impossible to be precise enough) to pin it down, thus making the whole calculation impossible.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 8 hours ago









        bukwyrmbukwyrm

        4,538825




        4,538825







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
          $endgroup$
          – Whitecold
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          @Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
          $endgroup$
          – Nosajimiki
          5 hours ago












        • 1




          $begingroup$
          The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
          $endgroup$
          – Whitecold
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          @Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
          $endgroup$
          – Nosajimiki
          5 hours ago







        1




        1




        $begingroup$
        The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
        $endgroup$
        – Whitecold
        8 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        The only issue with changing natural constants is that they all hang together. Change them, and you quickly find out you turned matter unstable, or everything should collapse, or some other consequence that makes the current universe impossible. So it is always possible to constrain constants to some degree what they must have been.
        $endgroup$
        – Whitecold
        8 hours ago












        $begingroup$
        @Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
        $endgroup$
        – Nosajimiki
        5 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @Whitecold Many universal consonants are based on an incomplete understanding. For example, Pythagoras knew that A² + B² = C² where Θ = 90°. And for nearly 2000 years, you could only calculate the sides of a triangle where Θ is a constant of 90°. Then al-Kāshī realized he could expand the formula to A² + B² - 2ABcos(Θ) = C². This change did not invalidate the truth of Pythagoras's work, it just expanded it to new frames of reference. Likewise, a variable "constant" may not change our observations from Earth, but would from the Andromeda Galaxy.
        $endgroup$
        – Nosajimiki
        5 hours ago











        2












        $begingroup$

        Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$

















          2












          $begingroup$

          Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$















            2












            2








            2





            $begingroup$

            Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            Your idea is sound. In the very far future when most galaxies are invisible and the cosmic background radiation has faded to the point of undetectability, evidence about the state of the early universe will be impossible to obtain at our current technology level, and some kind of steady-state theory may well be just as well supported by the available evidence. But remember that the visible universe will be very different from the one that we see around us today -- we're talking very far future, perhaps a trillion years from now. See this article.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 8 hours ago









            Mike ScottMike Scott

            12.4k32452




            12.4k32452





















                2












                $begingroup$

                You can just have them be primitive.



                Roll safe



                Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.



                Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:



                Eagle nebula



                Or the Horsehead:



                Horsehead nebula



                Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$












                • $begingroup$
                  Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Nobbe
                  8 hours ago















                2












                $begingroup$

                You can just have them be primitive.



                Roll safe



                Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.



                Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:



                Eagle nebula



                Or the Horsehead:



                Horsehead nebula



                Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$












                • $begingroup$
                  Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Nobbe
                  8 hours ago













                2












                2








                2





                $begingroup$

                You can just have them be primitive.



                Roll safe



                Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.



                Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:



                Eagle nebula



                Or the Horsehead:



                Horsehead nebula



                Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                You can just have them be primitive.



                Roll safe



                Alternatively, they did have the knowledge and tech to do it. They just lost of broke all their satellites and telescopes.



                Edit: you edited the question to mention they do have technology. Alright, have them be surrounded by nebulae, such as the Eagle:



                Eagle nebula



                Or the Horsehead:



                Horsehead nebula



                Those are thick enough that we cannot see past them, at least not in every frequency. If your inhabitants are in a bubble of dust, they won't be able to measure the doppler shift of distant galaxies.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 8 hours ago

























                answered 8 hours ago









                RenanRenan

                58.6k16132291




                58.6k16132291











                • $begingroup$
                  Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Nobbe
                  8 hours ago
















                • $begingroup$
                  Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Nobbe
                  8 hours ago















                $begingroup$
                Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
                $endgroup$
                – Nobbe
                8 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                Clearly I should have been more specific, I'm not even mad.
                $endgroup$
                – Nobbe
                8 hours ago











                2












                $begingroup$

                First why not, and then how maybe ...



                I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.



                One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.



                Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).



                They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.



                Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.



                Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.



                Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).



                So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)



                How to avoid this ...



                One word : Desperation.



                Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.



                That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).



                Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.



                So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).



                I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$












                • $begingroup$
                  But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Mike Scott
                  2 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  @MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
                  $endgroup$
                  – StephenG
                  1 hour ago















                2












                $begingroup$

                First why not, and then how maybe ...



                I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.



                One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.



                Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).



                They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.



                Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.



                Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.



                Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).



                So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)



                How to avoid this ...



                One word : Desperation.



                Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.



                That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).



                Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.



                So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).



                I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$












                • $begingroup$
                  But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Mike Scott
                  2 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  @MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
                  $endgroup$
                  – StephenG
                  1 hour ago













                2












                2








                2





                $begingroup$

                First why not, and then how maybe ...



                I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.



                One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.



                Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).



                They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.



                Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.



                Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.



                Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).



                So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)



                How to avoid this ...



                One word : Desperation.



                Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.



                That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).



                Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.



                So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).



                I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                First why not, and then how maybe ...



                I'm not convinced this is possible for an advanced technological society capable of space travel.



                One of the things they have to figure out on the way to getting that developed is the General Theory of Relativity. Although Einstein gets all the credit for this publicly, that's a gross simplification of a lot of investigation and discussion and ideas and theories that helped, so a society is going to get to it.



                Almost as soon as you can do anything with this theory, people will inevitably start trying to develop a model of the universe. What we got (and this model is also pretty likely to be found by someone) is the FLRW metric. Expansion is what we found going on, but even in your scenario, they'll see effects in their "Local" galaxies (which won't be all that local any more !).



                They'll also become aware of dark matter and dark energy, because this affects the motion of galaxies and even the motion of stars in galaxies.



                Note even in the late universe when it's "dark" and they're all alone, even the fact that you are alone with nothing obvious to see will be useful data in terms of fitting it to a model of the FLRW type.



                Quantum theory is also going to be found. Again inevitably people will seek explanations for the origin of the universe and look to it to provide explanations.



                Like us they'll look for ways to combine quantum theories and general relativity (which we haven't quite managed yet :-) ). These will result in concepts that tell them to look at e.g. the relative distribution of different isotopes as evidence for their origin (this is one piece of evidence we use).



                So they'll inevitably find clues and look for explanations, and go looking for more clues to test theories and find more data. They'll keep looking until they get an answer, because if there is one trait I suspect all intelligent life shares it's going to be "unrestrained nosiness". :-)



                How to avoid this ...



                One word : Desperation.



                Give them a world that is in turmoil, always at war with itself, with an ecological nightmare that makes staying alive hard as blazes.



                That pushes resources and all the inquisitive people into more practical work (if necessary in chains).



                Also keep in mind that the main motivation for all that "going into space" stuff was not (in our case) pure scientific interest. We were building rockets to throw nukes at each other and science gave an excuse that didn't sound so insane. But in doing that we came extremely close to wiping ourselves out.



                So we (and they) could just as easily have gotten to space travel and promptly almost wiped out most of the planet's life, including ourselves. (And the option is still there, kiddies - vote for sane people, please :-) ).



                I don;t know about you but if e.g. the Cuban missile crisis had gone full scale nuclear exchange, none of us would care one iota about the age of the universe or studies to find out about it.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 8 hours ago









                StephenGStephenG

                15.4k72156




                15.4k72156











                • $begingroup$
                  But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Mike Scott
                  2 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  @MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
                  $endgroup$
                  – StephenG
                  1 hour ago
















                • $begingroup$
                  But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Mike Scott
                  2 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  @MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
                  $endgroup$
                  – StephenG
                  1 hour ago















                $begingroup$
                But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
                $endgroup$
                – Mike Scott
                2 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                But we know that general relativity and quantum theory can’t both be right — they are incompatible. So they're probably both very good approximations to some other theory that we know nothing about (except that it approximates to quantum theory at small scales and to general relativity at large scales). And that theory may have different implications for cosmology.
                $endgroup$
                – Mike Scott
                2 hours ago












                $begingroup$
                @MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
                $endgroup$
                – StephenG
                1 hour ago




                $begingroup$
                @MikeScott I would not say they both can't be right. They're both spectacularly accurate theories in their intended domain. Any theory replacing them has to be practically the same as GR and QM in their respective domains. So a replacement theory would be expected to reproduce the results from GR we already have, including the cosmological results. QM and GR aren't incompatible - we have theories that mix them fine, but the problem is that these theories don't quite fit the data - we're looking for the "Goldilocks" theory. But theories mixing GR and QM - no problem - we've loads. :-)
                $endgroup$
                – StephenG
                1 hour ago











                1












                $begingroup$

                How do we calculate the age of the universe?



                A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
                $$tsimfrac1H_0$$
                A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
                $$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
                There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:



                • Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations

                • Examining the sources of gravitational waves

                • Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background

                • Measuring gravitational lensing

                • Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect

                . . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.



                What your setup rules out



                We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.



                One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.



                I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$

















                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  How do we calculate the age of the universe?



                  A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
                  $$tsimfrac1H_0$$
                  A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
                  $$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
                  There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:



                  • Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations

                  • Examining the sources of gravitational waves

                  • Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background

                  • Measuring gravitational lensing

                  • Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect

                  . . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.



                  What your setup rules out



                  We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.



                  One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.



                  I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$















                    1












                    1








                    1





                    $begingroup$

                    How do we calculate the age of the universe?



                    A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
                    $$tsimfrac1H_0$$
                    A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
                    $$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
                    There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:



                    • Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations

                    • Examining the sources of gravitational waves

                    • Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background

                    • Measuring gravitational lensing

                    • Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect

                    . . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.



                    What your setup rules out



                    We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.



                    One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.



                    I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    How do we calculate the age of the universe?



                    A very simple estimate of the age of the universe can be found via the Hubble constant:
                    $$tsimfrac1H_0$$
                    A more sophisticated (and exact) technique is to determine the standard cosmological parameters. By this, I mean the various relative densities of dark energy, matter, and radiation ($Omega_Lambda$, $Omega_m$, and $Omega_r$). We can then calculate the age of the universe by integrating the scale factor:
                    $$t=frac1H_0int_0^1 Big(Omega_m,0a^-1 + Omega_r,0a^-2 + Omega_Lambda,0a^2 + Omega_k,0Big)^-1/2 da$$
                    There are a number of ways to do determine the Hubble constant and the density parameters:



                    • Analyzing baryon acoustic oscillations

                    • Examining the sources of gravitational waves

                    • Looking at peaks and anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background

                    • Measuring gravitational lensing

                    • Studying the Sunyaev–Zeldovich effect

                    . . . and many others. We've recently seen discrepancies between some of the values derived by different methods, which implies that our standard cosmological model may be incomplete, but they're nonetheless all valid.



                    What your setup rules out



                    We can throw out all methods that require measurements of objects at high redshifts. Regrettably, this includes basically all the techniques I've described here. If you're looking for a time period at which it becomes difficult to determine the age of the universe - well, you picked a good one. All high-redshift sources aren't visible.



                    One possibility that might remain is looking for anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background (which I alluded to before), from which we can determine $H_0$. Unfortunately, it happens that $H_0$ is degenerate with the radiation density $Omega_Lambda$ and the equation of state parameter $w$; that is, you need two of those to determine the other one. This means you can only constrain the relationships between these three. Of course, if there was an independent way to determine $w$ and $Omega_Lambda$, you might be able to get somewhere.



                    I should note that this assumes that the CMB will still be detectable far in the future. Over time, it gets more and more redshifted; by this point, it may exist only at such long wavelengths that your civilization will be unable to observe it.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 3 hours ago

























                    answered 4 hours ago









                    HDE 226868HDE 226868

                    68k15238440




                    68k15238440





















                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.



                        A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$

















                          0












                          $begingroup$

                          Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.



                          A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.






                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$















                            0












                            0








                            0





                            $begingroup$

                            Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.



                            A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.






                            share|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$



                            Make redshift the natural effect of a resistance caused by a currently unknown scalar field. Right now we assume we can track the universe's origins to a big bang because we believe it is expanding. We believe this because of redshift, but if redshift is just what happens to light over distance, then all of our theories about the universe's age, size, mass, and energy would just be wrong. Another reason we believe this is because of the universe's background radiation which we be believe to be caused by the big bang, might instead just be the result of light losing its energy as it travels through space. All of our models to date only work because the effect of this field is so predictable, but a predictable phenomenon and an accurate hypothesis to explain it are not mutually exclusive.



                            A more advanced civilization than our own could prove the existence a redshifting-scalar field by the inconsistencies it would create in travel times between stars (A thing we have not yet been able to test for ourselves). Once this field is proven, the new model of the universe would have to except that matter could go out indefinitely past our cosmological horizon, and observing the drift of galaxies would reveal nothing about the actual age of the universe if general expansion proves to just be an optical illusion.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 4 hours ago

























                            answered 5 hours ago









                            NosajimikiNosajimiki

                            5,9921537




                            5,9921537



























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