Active low-pass filters — good to what frequencies?Does slew rate of an op-amp affect a low pass filter?How can I improve the response time of a low pass filter?Why this high-pass filter behaves like a low-pass filter for high frequencies, on this ideal LTSpice simulation?Not understanding why having a larger stop band attenuation is better for a low pass filter?Why does my active low pass filter produce triangle waves?Sallen-Key low pass filter cutoff frequencyDoes the order of connecting the low pass and high pass filter make any difference?Passive Low Pass FilterLow-pass Filter with zero drift amplifierWhat kind of filtering does this op-amp perform?

What is the maximum number of net attacks that one can make in a round?

What to do when surprise and a high initiative roll conflict with the narrative?

is it possible for a vehicle to be manufactured witout a catalitic converter

Is an entry level DSLR going to shoot nice portrait pictures?

What ways have you found to get edits from non-LaTeX users?

Is White controlling this game?

Certain search in list

I have a problem assistant manager, but I can't fire him

Why we don’t make use of the t-distribution for constructing a confidence interval for a proportion?

Implement Own Vector Class in C++

Is a lack of character descriptions a problem?

Generate basis elements of the Steenrod algebra

Does Disney no longer produce hand-drawn cartoon films?

How is John Wick 3 a 15 certificate?

Tangent point coordinates when the curve is a set of points

Teaching a class likely meant to inflate the GPA of student athletes

What is the actual quality of machine translations?

Is it legal for a bar bouncer to confiscate a fake ID

Fail to return int value from a function

Union with anonymous struct with flexible array member

How does an ordinary object become radioactive?

Colloquialism for “see you later”

Meaning of 'lose their grip on the groins of their followers'

How do I prevent employees from either switching to competitors or opening their own business?



Active low-pass filters — good to what frequencies?


Does slew rate of an op-amp affect a low pass filter?How can I improve the response time of a low pass filter?Why this high-pass filter behaves like a low-pass filter for high frequencies, on this ideal LTSpice simulation?Not understanding why having a larger stop band attenuation is better for a low pass filter?Why does my active low pass filter produce triangle waves?Sallen-Key low pass filter cutoff frequencyDoes the order of connecting the low pass and high pass filter make any difference?Passive Low Pass FilterLow-pass Filter with zero drift amplifierWhat kind of filtering does this op-amp perform?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








4












$begingroup$


Appendix E of The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition (LC Butterworth filters) starts by saying that "active filters are convenient at low-frequencies but impractical at higher frequencies". They go and say that "at frequencies of 100kHz and above, the best approach is passive LC filters" (paraphrased in both cases).



My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for active filters to be practical?



I understand that op-amps with high bandwidth and HIGH slew-rate can be pricey, making it "impractical" in the general case --- however, a low-pass LC filter with, say, 1MHz cutoff, T topology with a 1kΩ load ends up requiring inductors in the order of hundreds of μH --- if I need to avoid distortion (magnetic core saturation and hysteresis), an air-core inductor in that range makes the whole thing rather impractical.



Question 2 would be: is a cutoff frequency of, say, less than 10MHz too high for a Sallen-Key 2nd-order low-pass filter?





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



Analyzing it from the perspective of the ideal case (assuming op-amp always within linear operation), all three pins of the op-amp will be subject to the low-passed output signal --- at < 10MHz cutoff frequency that's certainly not an issue (neither bandwidth nor slew rate). Input capacitance shouldn't be a big issue --- with R in the order of 1k, the capacitors are in the order of a few tens of pF to a few hundreds of pF --- high enough to make the op-amp's input capacitance negligible.



Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10 or $20 range, that's fine)










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Can you define source R and load R and cable capacitance? and if possible phase shift at 10MHz @ -3dB and rejection -dB @ 20MHz. Linear phase, maximally flat or ?? Usually GBW must be much greater than signal BW to reduce 200 Ohm or so Ro by gain. There is a reason why it is limited and it depends on these parameters What is the purpose?
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    The main reason is unity gain instability with >= 100GBW on capacitive cable loads, high output impedance unless impedance matched as 1pF stray capacitance can cause peaking.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Walt Jung of ADI warns us "To achieve -40dB stopband performance in an active lowpass filter, the opamp needs to have 40dB gain surplus everywhere in the stopband." Additionally, opamps often have inductive Zout (rising resistance and a 90 degree phaseshift provided by the opamp rolloff), and the capacitors in the filter provide a high-frequency path AROUND the opamp; with rising Zout, the opamp cannot attenuate that high frequency energy. Thus if you REALLY need excellent stopband performance, have a passive RC LPF as the first pole, and be generous with opamp specs.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    50 mins ago

















4












$begingroup$


Appendix E of The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition (LC Butterworth filters) starts by saying that "active filters are convenient at low-frequencies but impractical at higher frequencies". They go and say that "at frequencies of 100kHz and above, the best approach is passive LC filters" (paraphrased in both cases).



My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for active filters to be practical?



I understand that op-amps with high bandwidth and HIGH slew-rate can be pricey, making it "impractical" in the general case --- however, a low-pass LC filter with, say, 1MHz cutoff, T topology with a 1kΩ load ends up requiring inductors in the order of hundreds of μH --- if I need to avoid distortion (magnetic core saturation and hysteresis), an air-core inductor in that range makes the whole thing rather impractical.



Question 2 would be: is a cutoff frequency of, say, less than 10MHz too high for a Sallen-Key 2nd-order low-pass filter?





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



Analyzing it from the perspective of the ideal case (assuming op-amp always within linear operation), all three pins of the op-amp will be subject to the low-passed output signal --- at < 10MHz cutoff frequency that's certainly not an issue (neither bandwidth nor slew rate). Input capacitance shouldn't be a big issue --- with R in the order of 1k, the capacitors are in the order of a few tens of pF to a few hundreds of pF --- high enough to make the op-amp's input capacitance negligible.



Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10 or $20 range, that's fine)










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Can you define source R and load R and cable capacitance? and if possible phase shift at 10MHz @ -3dB and rejection -dB @ 20MHz. Linear phase, maximally flat or ?? Usually GBW must be much greater than signal BW to reduce 200 Ohm or so Ro by gain. There is a reason why it is limited and it depends on these parameters What is the purpose?
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    The main reason is unity gain instability with >= 100GBW on capacitive cable loads, high output impedance unless impedance matched as 1pF stray capacitance can cause peaking.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Walt Jung of ADI warns us "To achieve -40dB stopband performance in an active lowpass filter, the opamp needs to have 40dB gain surplus everywhere in the stopband." Additionally, opamps often have inductive Zout (rising resistance and a 90 degree phaseshift provided by the opamp rolloff), and the capacitors in the filter provide a high-frequency path AROUND the opamp; with rising Zout, the opamp cannot attenuate that high frequency energy. Thus if you REALLY need excellent stopband performance, have a passive RC LPF as the first pole, and be generous with opamp specs.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    50 mins ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$


Appendix E of The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition (LC Butterworth filters) starts by saying that "active filters are convenient at low-frequencies but impractical at higher frequencies". They go and say that "at frequencies of 100kHz and above, the best approach is passive LC filters" (paraphrased in both cases).



My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for active filters to be practical?



I understand that op-amps with high bandwidth and HIGH slew-rate can be pricey, making it "impractical" in the general case --- however, a low-pass LC filter with, say, 1MHz cutoff, T topology with a 1kΩ load ends up requiring inductors in the order of hundreds of μH --- if I need to avoid distortion (magnetic core saturation and hysteresis), an air-core inductor in that range makes the whole thing rather impractical.



Question 2 would be: is a cutoff frequency of, say, less than 10MHz too high for a Sallen-Key 2nd-order low-pass filter?





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



Analyzing it from the perspective of the ideal case (assuming op-amp always within linear operation), all three pins of the op-amp will be subject to the low-passed output signal --- at < 10MHz cutoff frequency that's certainly not an issue (neither bandwidth nor slew rate). Input capacitance shouldn't be a big issue --- with R in the order of 1k, the capacitors are in the order of a few tens of pF to a few hundreds of pF --- high enough to make the op-amp's input capacitance negligible.



Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10 or $20 range, that's fine)










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




Appendix E of The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition (LC Butterworth filters) starts by saying that "active filters are convenient at low-frequencies but impractical at higher frequencies". They go and say that "at frequencies of 100kHz and above, the best approach is passive LC filters" (paraphrased in both cases).



My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for active filters to be practical?



I understand that op-amps with high bandwidth and HIGH slew-rate can be pricey, making it "impractical" in the general case --- however, a low-pass LC filter with, say, 1MHz cutoff, T topology with a 1kΩ load ends up requiring inductors in the order of hundreds of μH --- if I need to avoid distortion (magnetic core saturation and hysteresis), an air-core inductor in that range makes the whole thing rather impractical.



Question 2 would be: is a cutoff frequency of, say, less than 10MHz too high for a Sallen-Key 2nd-order low-pass filter?





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



Analyzing it from the perspective of the ideal case (assuming op-amp always within linear operation), all three pins of the op-amp will be subject to the low-passed output signal --- at < 10MHz cutoff frequency that's certainly not an issue (neither bandwidth nor slew rate). Input capacitance shouldn't be a big issue --- with R in the order of 1k, the capacitors are in the order of a few tens of pF to a few hundreds of pF --- high enough to make the op-amp's input capacitance negligible.



Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10 or $20 range, that's fine)







operational-amplifier active-filter passive-filter sallen-key






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 8 hours ago









Cal-linuxCal-linux

452415




452415











  • $begingroup$
    Can you define source R and load R and cable capacitance? and if possible phase shift at 10MHz @ -3dB and rejection -dB @ 20MHz. Linear phase, maximally flat or ?? Usually GBW must be much greater than signal BW to reduce 200 Ohm or so Ro by gain. There is a reason why it is limited and it depends on these parameters What is the purpose?
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    The main reason is unity gain instability with >= 100GBW on capacitive cable loads, high output impedance unless impedance matched as 1pF stray capacitance can cause peaking.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Walt Jung of ADI warns us "To achieve -40dB stopband performance in an active lowpass filter, the opamp needs to have 40dB gain surplus everywhere in the stopband." Additionally, opamps often have inductive Zout (rising resistance and a 90 degree phaseshift provided by the opamp rolloff), and the capacitors in the filter provide a high-frequency path AROUND the opamp; with rising Zout, the opamp cannot attenuate that high frequency energy. Thus if you REALLY need excellent stopband performance, have a passive RC LPF as the first pole, and be generous with opamp specs.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    50 mins ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Can you define source R and load R and cable capacitance? and if possible phase shift at 10MHz @ -3dB and rejection -dB @ 20MHz. Linear phase, maximally flat or ?? Usually GBW must be much greater than signal BW to reduce 200 Ohm or so Ro by gain. There is a reason why it is limited and it depends on these parameters What is the purpose?
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    The main reason is unity gain instability with >= 100GBW on capacitive cable loads, high output impedance unless impedance matched as 1pF stray capacitance can cause peaking.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Walt Jung of ADI warns us "To achieve -40dB stopband performance in an active lowpass filter, the opamp needs to have 40dB gain surplus everywhere in the stopband." Additionally, opamps often have inductive Zout (rising resistance and a 90 degree phaseshift provided by the opamp rolloff), and the capacitors in the filter provide a high-frequency path AROUND the opamp; with rising Zout, the opamp cannot attenuate that high frequency energy. Thus if you REALLY need excellent stopband performance, have a passive RC LPF as the first pole, and be generous with opamp specs.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    50 mins ago















$begingroup$
Can you define source R and load R and cable capacitance? and if possible phase shift at 10MHz @ -3dB and rejection -dB @ 20MHz. Linear phase, maximally flat or ?? Usually GBW must be much greater than signal BW to reduce 200 Ohm or so Ro by gain. There is a reason why it is limited and it depends on these parameters What is the purpose?
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
Can you define source R and load R and cable capacitance? and if possible phase shift at 10MHz @ -3dB and rejection -dB @ 20MHz. Linear phase, maximally flat or ?? Usually GBW must be much greater than signal BW to reduce 200 Ohm or so Ro by gain. There is a reason why it is limited and it depends on these parameters What is the purpose?
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
7 hours ago













$begingroup$
The main reason is unity gain instability with >= 100GBW on capacitive cable loads, high output impedance unless impedance matched as 1pF stray capacitance can cause peaking.
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
The main reason is unity gain instability with >= 100GBW on capacitive cable loads, high output impedance unless impedance matched as 1pF stray capacitance can cause peaking.
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
7 hours ago













$begingroup$
Walt Jung of ADI warns us "To achieve -40dB stopband performance in an active lowpass filter, the opamp needs to have 40dB gain surplus everywhere in the stopband." Additionally, opamps often have inductive Zout (rising resistance and a 90 degree phaseshift provided by the opamp rolloff), and the capacitors in the filter provide a high-frequency path AROUND the opamp; with rising Zout, the opamp cannot attenuate that high frequency energy. Thus if you REALLY need excellent stopband performance, have a passive RC LPF as the first pole, and be generous with opamp specs.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
50 mins ago




$begingroup$
Walt Jung of ADI warns us "To achieve -40dB stopband performance in an active lowpass filter, the opamp needs to have 40dB gain surplus everywhere in the stopband." Additionally, opamps often have inductive Zout (rising resistance and a 90 degree phaseshift provided by the opamp rolloff), and the capacitors in the filter provide a high-frequency path AROUND the opamp; with rising Zout, the opamp cannot attenuate that high frequency energy. Thus if you REALLY need excellent stopband performance, have a passive RC LPF as the first pole, and be generous with opamp specs.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
50 mins ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















8












$begingroup$

I believe your analysis to be good. I've made sallen-key 4th order filters that cut-off around 3 MHz with absolutely no worry about performance. I don't see that 10 MHz is unachievable.



It's all about op-amp choice. For a unity gain stage it's easy to ascertain where the gain starts dropping below (say) 0.99 and regard that as the limiting frequency. On the other hand, the output impedance of an op-amp usually gets worse as it enters the MHz regions so you have to be sure it can deliver the peak current without clipping or going too sloppy.



You also have to consider slew rate limitations but, as far as I'm aware, that's about it.



It's quite possible that The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition didn't make any updates on that section since it first came out in 1980.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    That's the 7th down vote today - any ideas anyone?
    $endgroup$
    – Andy aka
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I get the same too. Must be newbies that do not appreciate free expertise and don't know how to write a comment
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    7 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Andyaka. The down votes have got to be frustrating. But your answers always get positive votes in the end .
    $endgroup$
    – Marla
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    indeed 10MHz is perfectly possible. I recently made an active low pass for 10 MHz and even let the OpAmp drive a 50 Ohm load. It works fine, however these OpAmps are pricey and also produce a bit of heat.
    $endgroup$
    – T. Pluess
    5 hours ago


















3












$begingroup$

The main problem with that Sallen Key topology at high frequency is that the output impedance of op-amps rises, so fails to control feedforward of the input signal through the 2C capacitor, trashing the stopband.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    3












    $begingroup$


    My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for
    active filters to be practical?




    No, 100kHz is nothing, but it all depends on the opamp. At some point the Gain Bandwidth Product is going to cause problems. If you had an op amp with a 1MHz or 10MHz GBWP (which may have been typical at the time of the first edition of AofE, maybe they didn't update it is my thinking so I'd compare editions) then 100kHz doesn't sound too unreasonable, because you'd only get a magnitude or two of filtering and then the bandwidth goes below unity gain. Then your lowpass filter looks more like a bandpass.




    Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being
    realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of
    a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10
    or $20 range, that's fine)




    If you really do need filtering past 50MHz then parasitics need to be modeled as ESR and ESL in capacitors will start to affect the filter poles and create their own filter poles at high frequencies. Use a spice package if possible. Make sure the GBWP is high enough, these days it's not hard to get op amps that work in the +100MHz range.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      TI has a 10MHz design App Note. It is based on their THS4001 low-cost 270 MHz -3dB Op Amp.



      Op Amps have an open loop output impedance much higher than your 50 Ω signal generator. This makes them stable with their short circuit protection. The higher GBW is used to lower the Zout = Zoc/GBW. The breadboard ESL (0.5nH/mm) and stray capacitance will need to be minimized.



      With 150 MHz GBW you can use 1k R's with 5 pf, 10pF.



      I did not read their design.



      http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/sloa032/sloa032.pdf



      To design any filter, you should consider these specs 1st;



      Source impedance $Z_S(f)$ 
      Load Impedance $Z_L(f)$
      Gain -3 dB passband $f_p$
      Loss @ $f_s$stop band edge e.g. $ ~-dB~ @ ~2*f_p, 10*f_p$
      .. or order of filter
      % load regulation error = % Output/Load impedance ratio ( for low % )
      Phase shift in passband, group delay
      Noise, supply power
      Output swing and slew rate limit





      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$













        Your Answer






        StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
        return StackExchange.using("schematics", function ()
        StackExchange.schematics.init();
        );
        , "cicuitlab");

        StackExchange.ready(function()
        var channelOptions =
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "135"
        ;
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
        createEditor();
        );

        else
        createEditor();

        );

        function createEditor()
        StackExchange.prepareEditor(
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: false,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: null,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader:
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        ,
        onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        );



        );













        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function ()
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f442120%2factive-low-pass-filters-good-to-what-frequencies%23new-answer', 'question_page');

        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes








        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        8












        $begingroup$

        I believe your analysis to be good. I've made sallen-key 4th order filters that cut-off around 3 MHz with absolutely no worry about performance. I don't see that 10 MHz is unachievable.



        It's all about op-amp choice. For a unity gain stage it's easy to ascertain where the gain starts dropping below (say) 0.99 and regard that as the limiting frequency. On the other hand, the output impedance of an op-amp usually gets worse as it enters the MHz regions so you have to be sure it can deliver the peak current without clipping or going too sloppy.



        You also have to consider slew rate limitations but, as far as I'm aware, that's about it.



        It's quite possible that The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition didn't make any updates on that section since it first came out in 1980.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$












        • $begingroup$
          That's the 7th down vote today - any ideas anyone?
          $endgroup$
          – Andy aka
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          I get the same too. Must be newbies that do not appreciate free expertise and don't know how to write a comment
          $endgroup$
          – Sunnyskyguy EE75
          7 hours ago







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @Andyaka. The down votes have got to be frustrating. But your answers always get positive votes in the end .
          $endgroup$
          – Marla
          7 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          indeed 10MHz is perfectly possible. I recently made an active low pass for 10 MHz and even let the OpAmp drive a 50 Ohm load. It works fine, however these OpAmps are pricey and also produce a bit of heat.
          $endgroup$
          – T. Pluess
          5 hours ago















        8












        $begingroup$

        I believe your analysis to be good. I've made sallen-key 4th order filters that cut-off around 3 MHz with absolutely no worry about performance. I don't see that 10 MHz is unachievable.



        It's all about op-amp choice. For a unity gain stage it's easy to ascertain where the gain starts dropping below (say) 0.99 and regard that as the limiting frequency. On the other hand, the output impedance of an op-amp usually gets worse as it enters the MHz regions so you have to be sure it can deliver the peak current without clipping or going too sloppy.



        You also have to consider slew rate limitations but, as far as I'm aware, that's about it.



        It's quite possible that The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition didn't make any updates on that section since it first came out in 1980.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$












        • $begingroup$
          That's the 7th down vote today - any ideas anyone?
          $endgroup$
          – Andy aka
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          I get the same too. Must be newbies that do not appreciate free expertise and don't know how to write a comment
          $endgroup$
          – Sunnyskyguy EE75
          7 hours ago







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @Andyaka. The down votes have got to be frustrating. But your answers always get positive votes in the end .
          $endgroup$
          – Marla
          7 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          indeed 10MHz is perfectly possible. I recently made an active low pass for 10 MHz and even let the OpAmp drive a 50 Ohm load. It works fine, however these OpAmps are pricey and also produce a bit of heat.
          $endgroup$
          – T. Pluess
          5 hours ago













        8












        8








        8





        $begingroup$

        I believe your analysis to be good. I've made sallen-key 4th order filters that cut-off around 3 MHz with absolutely no worry about performance. I don't see that 10 MHz is unachievable.



        It's all about op-amp choice. For a unity gain stage it's easy to ascertain where the gain starts dropping below (say) 0.99 and regard that as the limiting frequency. On the other hand, the output impedance of an op-amp usually gets worse as it enters the MHz regions so you have to be sure it can deliver the peak current without clipping or going too sloppy.



        You also have to consider slew rate limitations but, as far as I'm aware, that's about it.



        It's quite possible that The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition didn't make any updates on that section since it first came out in 1980.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        I believe your analysis to be good. I've made sallen-key 4th order filters that cut-off around 3 MHz with absolutely no worry about performance. I don't see that 10 MHz is unachievable.



        It's all about op-amp choice. For a unity gain stage it's easy to ascertain where the gain starts dropping below (say) 0.99 and regard that as the limiting frequency. On the other hand, the output impedance of an op-amp usually gets worse as it enters the MHz regions so you have to be sure it can deliver the peak current without clipping or going too sloppy.



        You also have to consider slew rate limitations but, as far as I'm aware, that's about it.



        It's quite possible that The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition didn't make any updates on that section since it first came out in 1980.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 8 hours ago

























        answered 8 hours ago









        Andy akaAndy aka

        247k11189431




        247k11189431











        • $begingroup$
          That's the 7th down vote today - any ideas anyone?
          $endgroup$
          – Andy aka
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          I get the same too. Must be newbies that do not appreciate free expertise and don't know how to write a comment
          $endgroup$
          – Sunnyskyguy EE75
          7 hours ago







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @Andyaka. The down votes have got to be frustrating. But your answers always get positive votes in the end .
          $endgroup$
          – Marla
          7 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          indeed 10MHz is perfectly possible. I recently made an active low pass for 10 MHz and even let the OpAmp drive a 50 Ohm load. It works fine, however these OpAmps are pricey and also produce a bit of heat.
          $endgroup$
          – T. Pluess
          5 hours ago
















        • $begingroup$
          That's the 7th down vote today - any ideas anyone?
          $endgroup$
          – Andy aka
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          I get the same too. Must be newbies that do not appreciate free expertise and don't know how to write a comment
          $endgroup$
          – Sunnyskyguy EE75
          7 hours ago







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @Andyaka. The down votes have got to be frustrating. But your answers always get positive votes in the end .
          $endgroup$
          – Marla
          7 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          indeed 10MHz is perfectly possible. I recently made an active low pass for 10 MHz and even let the OpAmp drive a 50 Ohm load. It works fine, however these OpAmps are pricey and also produce a bit of heat.
          $endgroup$
          – T. Pluess
          5 hours ago















        $begingroup$
        That's the 7th down vote today - any ideas anyone?
        $endgroup$
        – Andy aka
        8 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        That's the 7th down vote today - any ideas anyone?
        $endgroup$
        – Andy aka
        8 hours ago












        $begingroup$
        I get the same too. Must be newbies that do not appreciate free expertise and don't know how to write a comment
        $endgroup$
        – Sunnyskyguy EE75
        7 hours ago





        $begingroup$
        I get the same too. Must be newbies that do not appreciate free expertise and don't know how to write a comment
        $endgroup$
        – Sunnyskyguy EE75
        7 hours ago





        1




        1




        $begingroup$
        @Andyaka. The down votes have got to be frustrating. But your answers always get positive votes in the end .
        $endgroup$
        – Marla
        7 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @Andyaka. The down votes have got to be frustrating. But your answers always get positive votes in the end .
        $endgroup$
        – Marla
        7 hours ago












        $begingroup$
        indeed 10MHz is perfectly possible. I recently made an active low pass for 10 MHz and even let the OpAmp drive a 50 Ohm load. It works fine, however these OpAmps are pricey and also produce a bit of heat.
        $endgroup$
        – T. Pluess
        5 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        indeed 10MHz is perfectly possible. I recently made an active low pass for 10 MHz and even let the OpAmp drive a 50 Ohm load. It works fine, however these OpAmps are pricey and also produce a bit of heat.
        $endgroup$
        – T. Pluess
        5 hours ago













        3












        $begingroup$

        The main problem with that Sallen Key topology at high frequency is that the output impedance of op-amps rises, so fails to control feedforward of the input signal through the 2C capacitor, trashing the stopband.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$

















          3












          $begingroup$

          The main problem with that Sallen Key topology at high frequency is that the output impedance of op-amps rises, so fails to control feedforward of the input signal through the 2C capacitor, trashing the stopband.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$















            3












            3








            3





            $begingroup$

            The main problem with that Sallen Key topology at high frequency is that the output impedance of op-amps rises, so fails to control feedforward of the input signal through the 2C capacitor, trashing the stopband.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            The main problem with that Sallen Key topology at high frequency is that the output impedance of op-amps rises, so fails to control feedforward of the input signal through the 2C capacitor, trashing the stopband.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 8 hours ago









            Neil_UKNeil_UK

            81.4k285188




            81.4k285188





















                3












                $begingroup$


                My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for
                active filters to be practical?




                No, 100kHz is nothing, but it all depends on the opamp. At some point the Gain Bandwidth Product is going to cause problems. If you had an op amp with a 1MHz or 10MHz GBWP (which may have been typical at the time of the first edition of AofE, maybe they didn't update it is my thinking so I'd compare editions) then 100kHz doesn't sound too unreasonable, because you'd only get a magnitude or two of filtering and then the bandwidth goes below unity gain. Then your lowpass filter looks more like a bandpass.




                Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being
                realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of
                a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10
                or $20 range, that's fine)




                If you really do need filtering past 50MHz then parasitics need to be modeled as ESR and ESL in capacitors will start to affect the filter poles and create their own filter poles at high frequencies. Use a spice package if possible. Make sure the GBWP is high enough, these days it's not hard to get op amps that work in the +100MHz range.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$

















                  3












                  $begingroup$


                  My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for
                  active filters to be practical?




                  No, 100kHz is nothing, but it all depends on the opamp. At some point the Gain Bandwidth Product is going to cause problems. If you had an op amp with a 1MHz or 10MHz GBWP (which may have been typical at the time of the first edition of AofE, maybe they didn't update it is my thinking so I'd compare editions) then 100kHz doesn't sound too unreasonable, because you'd only get a magnitude or two of filtering and then the bandwidth goes below unity gain. Then your lowpass filter looks more like a bandpass.




                  Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being
                  realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of
                  a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10
                  or $20 range, that's fine)




                  If you really do need filtering past 50MHz then parasitics need to be modeled as ESR and ESL in capacitors will start to affect the filter poles and create their own filter poles at high frequencies. Use a spice package if possible. Make sure the GBWP is high enough, these days it's not hard to get op amps that work in the +100MHz range.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$















                    3












                    3








                    3





                    $begingroup$


                    My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for
                    active filters to be practical?




                    No, 100kHz is nothing, but it all depends on the opamp. At some point the Gain Bandwidth Product is going to cause problems. If you had an op amp with a 1MHz or 10MHz GBWP (which may have been typical at the time of the first edition of AofE, maybe they didn't update it is my thinking so I'd compare editions) then 100kHz doesn't sound too unreasonable, because you'd only get a magnitude or two of filtering and then the bandwidth goes below unity gain. Then your lowpass filter looks more like a bandpass.




                    Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being
                    realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of
                    a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10
                    or $20 range, that's fine)




                    If you really do need filtering past 50MHz then parasitics need to be modeled as ESR and ESL in capacitors will start to affect the filter poles and create their own filter poles at high frequencies. Use a spice package if possible. Make sure the GBWP is high enough, these days it's not hard to get op amps that work in the +100MHz range.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$




                    My first question: really? A mere 100kHz is already too high for
                    active filters to be practical?




                    No, 100kHz is nothing, but it all depends on the opamp. At some point the Gain Bandwidth Product is going to cause problems. If you had an op amp with a 1MHz or 10MHz GBWP (which may have been typical at the time of the first edition of AofE, maybe they didn't update it is my thinking so I'd compare editions) then 100kHz doesn't sound too unreasonable, because you'd only get a magnitude or two of filtering and then the bandwidth goes below unity gain. Then your lowpass filter looks more like a bandpass.




                    Are there any other practical issues that I'm overlooking? Am I being
                    realistic if I want such an active filter with cutoff in the order of
                    a few MHz? (pricing is not an issue --- if I need an op-amp in the $10
                    or $20 range, that's fine)




                    If you really do need filtering past 50MHz then parasitics need to be modeled as ESR and ESL in capacitors will start to affect the filter poles and create their own filter poles at high frequencies. Use a spice package if possible. Make sure the GBWP is high enough, these days it's not hard to get op amps that work in the +100MHz range.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 7 hours ago









                    laptop2dlaptop2d

                    31.7k123898




                    31.7k123898





















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        TI has a 10MHz design App Note. It is based on their THS4001 low-cost 270 MHz -3dB Op Amp.



                        Op Amps have an open loop output impedance much higher than your 50 Ω signal generator. This makes them stable with their short circuit protection. The higher GBW is used to lower the Zout = Zoc/GBW. The breadboard ESL (0.5nH/mm) and stray capacitance will need to be minimized.



                        With 150 MHz GBW you can use 1k R's with 5 pf, 10pF.



                        I did not read their design.



                        http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/sloa032/sloa032.pdf



                        To design any filter, you should consider these specs 1st;



                        Source impedance $Z_S(f)$ 
                        Load Impedance $Z_L(f)$
                        Gain -3 dB passband $f_p$
                        Loss @ $f_s$stop band edge e.g. $ ~-dB~ @ ~2*f_p, 10*f_p$
                        .. or order of filter
                        % load regulation error = % Output/Load impedance ratio ( for low % )
                        Phase shift in passband, group delay
                        Noise, supply power
                        Output swing and slew rate limit





                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$

















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          TI has a 10MHz design App Note. It is based on their THS4001 low-cost 270 MHz -3dB Op Amp.



                          Op Amps have an open loop output impedance much higher than your 50 Ω signal generator. This makes them stable with their short circuit protection. The higher GBW is used to lower the Zout = Zoc/GBW. The breadboard ESL (0.5nH/mm) and stray capacitance will need to be minimized.



                          With 150 MHz GBW you can use 1k R's with 5 pf, 10pF.



                          I did not read their design.



                          http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/sloa032/sloa032.pdf



                          To design any filter, you should consider these specs 1st;



                          Source impedance $Z_S(f)$ 
                          Load Impedance $Z_L(f)$
                          Gain -3 dB passband $f_p$
                          Loss @ $f_s$stop band edge e.g. $ ~-dB~ @ ~2*f_p, 10*f_p$
                          .. or order of filter
                          % load regulation error = % Output/Load impedance ratio ( for low % )
                          Phase shift in passband, group delay
                          Noise, supply power
                          Output swing and slew rate limit





                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            TI has a 10MHz design App Note. It is based on their THS4001 low-cost 270 MHz -3dB Op Amp.



                            Op Amps have an open loop output impedance much higher than your 50 Ω signal generator. This makes them stable with their short circuit protection. The higher GBW is used to lower the Zout = Zoc/GBW. The breadboard ESL (0.5nH/mm) and stray capacitance will need to be minimized.



                            With 150 MHz GBW you can use 1k R's with 5 pf, 10pF.



                            I did not read their design.



                            http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/sloa032/sloa032.pdf



                            To design any filter, you should consider these specs 1st;



                            Source impedance $Z_S(f)$ 
                            Load Impedance $Z_L(f)$
                            Gain -3 dB passband $f_p$
                            Loss @ $f_s$stop band edge e.g. $ ~-dB~ @ ~2*f_p, 10*f_p$
                            .. or order of filter
                            % load regulation error = % Output/Load impedance ratio ( for low % )
                            Phase shift in passband, group delay
                            Noise, supply power
                            Output swing and slew rate limit





                            share|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$



                            TI has a 10MHz design App Note. It is based on their THS4001 low-cost 270 MHz -3dB Op Amp.



                            Op Amps have an open loop output impedance much higher than your 50 Ω signal generator. This makes them stable with their short circuit protection. The higher GBW is used to lower the Zout = Zoc/GBW. The breadboard ESL (0.5nH/mm) and stray capacitance will need to be minimized.



                            With 150 MHz GBW you can use 1k R's with 5 pf, 10pF.



                            I did not read their design.



                            http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/an/sloa032/sloa032.pdf



                            To design any filter, you should consider these specs 1st;



                            Source impedance $Z_S(f)$ 
                            Load Impedance $Z_L(f)$
                            Gain -3 dB passband $f_p$
                            Loss @ $f_s$stop band edge e.g. $ ~-dB~ @ ~2*f_p, 10*f_p$
                            .. or order of filter
                            % load regulation error = % Output/Load impedance ratio ( for low % )
                            Phase shift in passband, group delay
                            Noise, supply power
                            Output swing and slew rate limit






                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 6 hours ago

























                            answered 6 hours ago









                            Sunnyskyguy EE75Sunnyskyguy EE75

                            75.5k229107




                            75.5k229107



























                                draft saved

                                draft discarded
















































                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid


                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                                Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function ()
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f442120%2factive-low-pass-filters-good-to-what-frequencies%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                Popular posts from this blog

                                Invision Community Contents History See also References External links Navigation menuProprietaryinvisioncommunity.comIPS Community ForumsIPS Community Forumsthis blog entry"License Changes, IP.Board 3.4, and the Future""Interview -- Matt Mecham of Ibforums""CEO Invision Power Board, Matt Mecham Is a Liar, Thief!"IPB License Explanation 1.3, 1.3.1, 2.0, and 2.1ArchivedSecurity Fixes, Updates And Enhancements For IPB 1.3.1Archived"New Demo Accounts - Invision Power Services"the original"New Default Skin"the original"Invision Power Board 3.0.0 and Applications Released"the original"Archived copy"the original"Perpetual licenses being done away with""Release Notes - Invision Power Services""Introducing: IPS Community Suite 4!"Invision Community Release Notes

                                Canceling a color specificationRandomly assigning color to Graphics3D objects?Default color for Filling in Mathematica 9Coloring specific elements of sets with a prime modified order in an array plotHow to pick a color differing significantly from the colors already in a given color list?Detection of the text colorColor numbers based on their valueCan color schemes for use with ColorData include opacity specification?My dynamic color schemes

                                Tom Holland Mục lục Đầu đời và giáo dục | Sự nghiệp | Cuộc sống cá nhân | Phim tham gia | Giải thưởng và đề cử | Chú thích | Liên kết ngoài | Trình đơn chuyển hướngProfile“Person Details for Thomas Stanley Holland, "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008" — FamilySearch.org”"Meet Tom Holland... the 16-year-old star of The Impossible""Schoolboy actor Tom Holland finds himself in Oscar contention for role in tsunami drama"“Naomi Watts on the Prince William and Harry's reaction to her film about the late Princess Diana”lưu trữ"Holland and Pflueger Are West End's Two New 'Billy Elliots'""I'm so envious of my son, the movie star! British writer Dominic Holland's spent 20 years trying to crack Hollywood - but he's been beaten to it by a very unlikely rival"“Richard and Margaret Povey of Jersey, Channel Islands, UK: Information about Thomas Stanley Holland”"Tom Holland to play Billy Elliot""New Billy Elliot leaving the garage"Billy Elliot the Musical - Tom Holland - Billy"A Tale of four Billys: Tom Holland""The Feel Good Factor""Thames Christian College schoolboys join Myleene Klass for The Feelgood Factor""Government launches £600,000 arts bursaries pilot""BILLY's Chapman, Holland, Gardner & Jackson-Keen Visit Prime Minister""Elton John 'blown away' by Billy Elliot fifth birthday" (video with John's interview and fragments of Holland's performance)"First News interviews Arrietty's Tom Holland"“33rd Critics' Circle Film Awards winners”“National Board of Review Current Awards”Bản gốc"Ron Howard Whaling Tale 'In The Heart Of The Sea' Casts Tom Holland"“'Spider-Man' Finds Tom Holland to Star as New Web-Slinger”lưu trữ“Captain America: Civil War (2016)”“Film Review: ‘Captain America: Civil War’”lưu trữ“‘Captain America: Civil War’ review: Choose your own avenger”lưu trữ“The Lost City of Z reviews”“Sony Pictures and Marvel Studios Find Their 'Spider-Man' Star and Director”“‘Mary Magdalene’, ‘Current War’ & ‘Wind River’ Get 2017 Release Dates From Weinstein”“Lionsgate Unleashing Daisy Ridley & Tom Holland Starrer ‘Chaos Walking’ In Cannes”“PTA's 'Master' Leads Chicago Film Critics Nominations, UPDATED: Houston and Indiana Critics Nominations”“Nominaciones Goya 2013 Telecinco Cinema – ENG”“Jameson Empire Film Awards: Martin Freeman wins best actor for performance in The Hobbit”“34th Annual Young Artist Awards”Bản gốc“Teen Choice Awards 2016—Captain America: Civil War Leads Second Wave of Nominations”“BAFTA Film Award Nominations: ‘La La Land’ Leads Race”“Saturn Awards Nominations 2017: 'Rogue One,' 'Walking Dead' Lead”Tom HollandTom HollandTom HollandTom Hollandmedia.gettyimages.comWorldCat Identities300279794no20130442900000 0004 0355 42791085670554170004732cb16706349t(data)XX5557367