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Does a scale have more than seven chords?


A chord is three notes? What do you call just two notes?Why does the scale have seven (or five) notes? Why not six?What exactly is the difference between arranging a piece of music and composing it?How to figure out which scale to play a specific chord in?Need some help with perfect fifth power chordsWhy is the hexatonic scale that can be derived via a chain of perfect fifths so little-known?Music theory combinatorics trying to find all 'types' of set note combinations?Odd and Even Harmonic TheoryHow to name more than seven scale tones?Are there historical references that show that “diatonic” is a version of 'di-tonic' meaning 'two tonics'?Why is the vi chord so popular?













2















So I was watching this video and he goes to show that there's 48 (!) chords in the double harmonic major. Why so many? I thought there were only seven diatonic chords. Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?



In math it's under combinatorics. so combinations with no regards to order:




n!/(r!(n-r)!)




where n is number of things to choose from, and r is how much we take from it. If I plug it in it's 7!/(3!(7-3)!) = 35 different types of 3-note chords per scale. He says 48 because he's adding some four note chords as well. But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?










share|improve this question
























  • I think you meant to ask "...seven diatonic tertian triads..." otherwise you could have lots of different counts depending on what set of chords you want in the set... and what topo morto said about heptatonic scales.

    – Michael Curtis
    8 hours ago







  • 2





    Consider the chromatic scale. How many chords then? And we may only be talking triads...

    – Tim
    8 hours ago











  • You don't need an exotic scale to get more than seven 3-note chords. Consider e.g. sus2 and sus4 chords.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • Readers of this question may be interested in Jay Hook's article "Why Are There Twenty-Nine Tetrachords? A Tutorial on Combinatorics and Enumeration in Music Theory."

    – Richard
    7 hours ago












  • If you include 7ths, 9th, 11ths and 13ths there are quite a bit. But their function from a harmony perspective may not all be independent.

    – ggcg
    6 hours ago















2















So I was watching this video and he goes to show that there's 48 (!) chords in the double harmonic major. Why so many? I thought there were only seven diatonic chords. Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?



In math it's under combinatorics. so combinations with no regards to order:




n!/(r!(n-r)!)




where n is number of things to choose from, and r is how much we take from it. If I plug it in it's 7!/(3!(7-3)!) = 35 different types of 3-note chords per scale. He says 48 because he's adding some four note chords as well. But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?










share|improve this question
























  • I think you meant to ask "...seven diatonic tertian triads..." otherwise you could have lots of different counts depending on what set of chords you want in the set... and what topo morto said about heptatonic scales.

    – Michael Curtis
    8 hours ago







  • 2





    Consider the chromatic scale. How many chords then? And we may only be talking triads...

    – Tim
    8 hours ago











  • You don't need an exotic scale to get more than seven 3-note chords. Consider e.g. sus2 and sus4 chords.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • Readers of this question may be interested in Jay Hook's article "Why Are There Twenty-Nine Tetrachords? A Tutorial on Combinatorics and Enumeration in Music Theory."

    – Richard
    7 hours ago












  • If you include 7ths, 9th, 11ths and 13ths there are quite a bit. But their function from a harmony perspective may not all be independent.

    – ggcg
    6 hours ago













2












2








2








So I was watching this video and he goes to show that there's 48 (!) chords in the double harmonic major. Why so many? I thought there were only seven diatonic chords. Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?



In math it's under combinatorics. so combinations with no regards to order:




n!/(r!(n-r)!)




where n is number of things to choose from, and r is how much we take from it. If I plug it in it's 7!/(3!(7-3)!) = 35 different types of 3-note chords per scale. He says 48 because he's adding some four note chords as well. But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?










share|improve this question
















So I was watching this video and he goes to show that there's 48 (!) chords in the double harmonic major. Why so many? I thought there were only seven diatonic chords. Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?



In math it's under combinatorics. so combinations with no regards to order:




n!/(r!(n-r)!)




where n is number of things to choose from, and r is how much we take from it. If I plug it in it's 7!/(3!(7-3)!) = 35 different types of 3-note chords per scale. He says 48 because he's adding some four note chords as well. But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?







theory chords scales






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago







foreyez

















asked 8 hours ago









foreyezforeyez

5,88542793




5,88542793












  • I think you meant to ask "...seven diatonic tertian triads..." otherwise you could have lots of different counts depending on what set of chords you want in the set... and what topo morto said about heptatonic scales.

    – Michael Curtis
    8 hours ago







  • 2





    Consider the chromatic scale. How many chords then? And we may only be talking triads...

    – Tim
    8 hours ago











  • You don't need an exotic scale to get more than seven 3-note chords. Consider e.g. sus2 and sus4 chords.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • Readers of this question may be interested in Jay Hook's article "Why Are There Twenty-Nine Tetrachords? A Tutorial on Combinatorics and Enumeration in Music Theory."

    – Richard
    7 hours ago












  • If you include 7ths, 9th, 11ths and 13ths there are quite a bit. But their function from a harmony perspective may not all be independent.

    – ggcg
    6 hours ago

















  • I think you meant to ask "...seven diatonic tertian triads..." otherwise you could have lots of different counts depending on what set of chords you want in the set... and what topo morto said about heptatonic scales.

    – Michael Curtis
    8 hours ago







  • 2





    Consider the chromatic scale. How many chords then? And we may only be talking triads...

    – Tim
    8 hours ago











  • You don't need an exotic scale to get more than seven 3-note chords. Consider e.g. sus2 and sus4 chords.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • Readers of this question may be interested in Jay Hook's article "Why Are There Twenty-Nine Tetrachords? A Tutorial on Combinatorics and Enumeration in Music Theory."

    – Richard
    7 hours ago












  • If you include 7ths, 9th, 11ths and 13ths there are quite a bit. But their function from a harmony perspective may not all be independent.

    – ggcg
    6 hours ago
















I think you meant to ask "...seven diatonic tertian triads..." otherwise you could have lots of different counts depending on what set of chords you want in the set... and what topo morto said about heptatonic scales.

– Michael Curtis
8 hours ago






I think you meant to ask "...seven diatonic tertian triads..." otherwise you could have lots of different counts depending on what set of chords you want in the set... and what topo morto said about heptatonic scales.

– Michael Curtis
8 hours ago





2




2





Consider the chromatic scale. How many chords then? And we may only be talking triads...

– Tim
8 hours ago





Consider the chromatic scale. How many chords then? And we may only be talking triads...

– Tim
8 hours ago













You don't need an exotic scale to get more than seven 3-note chords. Consider e.g. sus2 and sus4 chords.

– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago





You don't need an exotic scale to get more than seven 3-note chords. Consider e.g. sus2 and sus4 chords.

– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago













Readers of this question may be interested in Jay Hook's article "Why Are There Twenty-Nine Tetrachords? A Tutorial on Combinatorics and Enumeration in Music Theory."

– Richard
7 hours ago






Readers of this question may be interested in Jay Hook's article "Why Are There Twenty-Nine Tetrachords? A Tutorial on Combinatorics and Enumeration in Music Theory."

– Richard
7 hours ago














If you include 7ths, 9th, 11ths and 13ths there are quite a bit. But their function from a harmony perspective may not all be independent.

– ggcg
6 hours ago





If you include 7ths, 9th, 11ths and 13ths there are quite a bit. But their function from a harmony perspective may not all be independent.

– ggcg
6 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3















Does a scale have more than seven chords?




Yes, any scale of at least 4 or 5 notes (depending on whether you're defining a chord as having at least 2, or at least 3, notes) can generate more than 7 chords.




Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?




Depending on how you are defining 'chord', you can take any group of 2/3 or more notes and call it a chord.



Of course not all of these chords will be triads.




I thought there were only seven diatonic chords.




A diatonic scale has only seven diatonic triads. But we aren't limited to thinking in terms of triadic harmony (nor are we limited to the diatonic scale, for that matter).






share|improve this answer
































    2














    This may help. https://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations-calculator.html



    I don't know this math so a calculator in Enlish helps me!



    • Types to choose from? 7

    • Number Chosen? 3

    • Is Order important? No

    • Is Repetition allowed? No

    Combinations without repetition (n=7, r=3)
    Using Items: a,b,c,d,e,f,g



    List has 35 entries.
    abc abd abe abf abg acd ace acf acg ade adf adg aef aeg afg bcd bce bcf bcg bde bdf bdg bef beg bfg cde cdf cdg cef ceg cfg def deg dfg efg



    But that included tertian triads ace & seventh chords acg, quartal ade, tone clusters abc etc.




    But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?




    Yes. Even in fairly basic classical harmony, the seventh chords on ii and V are so common that 9 would be the bare minimum of major diatonic chords. Sequential harmony using all 7 diatonic seventh chords is a common pattern so that would be 14 chords. If you are looking for a rough number of chords for diatonic, functional harmony in a single key (not scale) 9-14 seems reasonable.




    double harmonic major... diatonic chords... random notes from a scale... combinatorics




    I think a lot of concepts are packed together.



    With exotic scales like the double harmonic I think the typical approach is not building triads on each scale degree. It's more likely to be a folk music style or some eclectic modern style. 'Chords of the double harmonic scale' or the 'diatonic chords of double harmonic' isn't really a standard thing. Of course you can do it, but there aren't necessarily conventions to follow.



    Combinatorics comes up in classical styles, but it seems to be mostly about permuting melodic material. Chords and harmony don't get treated with interchangeable reordering. ii6 V7 I doesn't get permuted into ii6 I V7 and V7 ii6 I, etc. Also, I think a lot of the melodic combinations are constrained to harmony. So, CEG can become CGE, GEC,GCE, etc. Permutations of the notes of the chord. But the scale setCDEFGABC` is not just randomly permuted. So while there is the idea of Ars Combinatoria in the common practice ear it wasn't random. In those styles harmony followed a kind of grammar that could not be arbitrarily re-ordered. Chord construction as well wasn't random sets of tones from a scale. You can get dozens or hundreds of 'chords' from a seven tone scale, but they won't be common practice chords.



    Contrast that with 12 tone music where the whole point was to treat the 12 chromatic tones equally and un-do the harmonic grammar of common practice. When the harmony is freed from that constrained grammar you can create all kinds of tone sets (chords.)



    When you look at music and combinatorics these contrasting aspects of Ars Combinatoria and 12-tone or other eclectic modern styles.






    share|improve this answer

























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      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes








      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3















      Does a scale have more than seven chords?




      Yes, any scale of at least 4 or 5 notes (depending on whether you're defining a chord as having at least 2, or at least 3, notes) can generate more than 7 chords.




      Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?




      Depending on how you are defining 'chord', you can take any group of 2/3 or more notes and call it a chord.



      Of course not all of these chords will be triads.




      I thought there were only seven diatonic chords.




      A diatonic scale has only seven diatonic triads. But we aren't limited to thinking in terms of triadic harmony (nor are we limited to the diatonic scale, for that matter).






      share|improve this answer





























        3















        Does a scale have more than seven chords?




        Yes, any scale of at least 4 or 5 notes (depending on whether you're defining a chord as having at least 2, or at least 3, notes) can generate more than 7 chords.




        Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?




        Depending on how you are defining 'chord', you can take any group of 2/3 or more notes and call it a chord.



        Of course not all of these chords will be triads.




        I thought there were only seven diatonic chords.




        A diatonic scale has only seven diatonic triads. But we aren't limited to thinking in terms of triadic harmony (nor are we limited to the diatonic scale, for that matter).






        share|improve this answer



























          3












          3








          3








          Does a scale have more than seven chords?




          Yes, any scale of at least 4 or 5 notes (depending on whether you're defining a chord as having at least 2, or at least 3, notes) can generate more than 7 chords.




          Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?




          Depending on how you are defining 'chord', you can take any group of 2/3 or more notes and call it a chord.



          Of course not all of these chords will be triads.




          I thought there were only seven diatonic chords.




          A diatonic scale has only seven diatonic triads. But we aren't limited to thinking in terms of triadic harmony (nor are we limited to the diatonic scale, for that matter).






          share|improve this answer
















          Does a scale have more than seven chords?




          Yes, any scale of at least 4 or 5 notes (depending on whether you're defining a chord as having at least 2, or at least 3, notes) can generate more than 7 chords.




          Should one take just 3 random notes from a scale and call each a chord?




          Depending on how you are defining 'chord', you can take any group of 2/3 or more notes and call it a chord.



          Of course not all of these chords will be triads.




          I thought there were only seven diatonic chords.




          A diatonic scale has only seven diatonic triads. But we aren't limited to thinking in terms of triadic harmony (nor are we limited to the diatonic scale, for that matter).







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 7 hours ago

























          answered 8 hours ago









          topo mortotopo morto

          29.3k249116




          29.3k249116





















              2














              This may help. https://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations-calculator.html



              I don't know this math so a calculator in Enlish helps me!



              • Types to choose from? 7

              • Number Chosen? 3

              • Is Order important? No

              • Is Repetition allowed? No

              Combinations without repetition (n=7, r=3)
              Using Items: a,b,c,d,e,f,g



              List has 35 entries.
              abc abd abe abf abg acd ace acf acg ade adf adg aef aeg afg bcd bce bcf bcg bde bdf bdg bef beg bfg cde cdf cdg cef ceg cfg def deg dfg efg



              But that included tertian triads ace & seventh chords acg, quartal ade, tone clusters abc etc.




              But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?




              Yes. Even in fairly basic classical harmony, the seventh chords on ii and V are so common that 9 would be the bare minimum of major diatonic chords. Sequential harmony using all 7 diatonic seventh chords is a common pattern so that would be 14 chords. If you are looking for a rough number of chords for diatonic, functional harmony in a single key (not scale) 9-14 seems reasonable.




              double harmonic major... diatonic chords... random notes from a scale... combinatorics




              I think a lot of concepts are packed together.



              With exotic scales like the double harmonic I think the typical approach is not building triads on each scale degree. It's more likely to be a folk music style or some eclectic modern style. 'Chords of the double harmonic scale' or the 'diatonic chords of double harmonic' isn't really a standard thing. Of course you can do it, but there aren't necessarily conventions to follow.



              Combinatorics comes up in classical styles, but it seems to be mostly about permuting melodic material. Chords and harmony don't get treated with interchangeable reordering. ii6 V7 I doesn't get permuted into ii6 I V7 and V7 ii6 I, etc. Also, I think a lot of the melodic combinations are constrained to harmony. So, CEG can become CGE, GEC,GCE, etc. Permutations of the notes of the chord. But the scale setCDEFGABC` is not just randomly permuted. So while there is the idea of Ars Combinatoria in the common practice ear it wasn't random. In those styles harmony followed a kind of grammar that could not be arbitrarily re-ordered. Chord construction as well wasn't random sets of tones from a scale. You can get dozens or hundreds of 'chords' from a seven tone scale, but they won't be common practice chords.



              Contrast that with 12 tone music where the whole point was to treat the 12 chromatic tones equally and un-do the harmonic grammar of common practice. When the harmony is freed from that constrained grammar you can create all kinds of tone sets (chords.)



              When you look at music and combinatorics these contrasting aspects of Ars Combinatoria and 12-tone or other eclectic modern styles.






              share|improve this answer





























                2














                This may help. https://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations-calculator.html



                I don't know this math so a calculator in Enlish helps me!



                • Types to choose from? 7

                • Number Chosen? 3

                • Is Order important? No

                • Is Repetition allowed? No

                Combinations without repetition (n=7, r=3)
                Using Items: a,b,c,d,e,f,g



                List has 35 entries.
                abc abd abe abf abg acd ace acf acg ade adf adg aef aeg afg bcd bce bcf bcg bde bdf bdg bef beg bfg cde cdf cdg cef ceg cfg def deg dfg efg



                But that included tertian triads ace & seventh chords acg, quartal ade, tone clusters abc etc.




                But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?




                Yes. Even in fairly basic classical harmony, the seventh chords on ii and V are so common that 9 would be the bare minimum of major diatonic chords. Sequential harmony using all 7 diatonic seventh chords is a common pattern so that would be 14 chords. If you are looking for a rough number of chords for diatonic, functional harmony in a single key (not scale) 9-14 seems reasonable.




                double harmonic major... diatonic chords... random notes from a scale... combinatorics




                I think a lot of concepts are packed together.



                With exotic scales like the double harmonic I think the typical approach is not building triads on each scale degree. It's more likely to be a folk music style or some eclectic modern style. 'Chords of the double harmonic scale' or the 'diatonic chords of double harmonic' isn't really a standard thing. Of course you can do it, but there aren't necessarily conventions to follow.



                Combinatorics comes up in classical styles, but it seems to be mostly about permuting melodic material. Chords and harmony don't get treated with interchangeable reordering. ii6 V7 I doesn't get permuted into ii6 I V7 and V7 ii6 I, etc. Also, I think a lot of the melodic combinations are constrained to harmony. So, CEG can become CGE, GEC,GCE, etc. Permutations of the notes of the chord. But the scale setCDEFGABC` is not just randomly permuted. So while there is the idea of Ars Combinatoria in the common practice ear it wasn't random. In those styles harmony followed a kind of grammar that could not be arbitrarily re-ordered. Chord construction as well wasn't random sets of tones from a scale. You can get dozens or hundreds of 'chords' from a seven tone scale, but they won't be common practice chords.



                Contrast that with 12 tone music where the whole point was to treat the 12 chromatic tones equally and un-do the harmonic grammar of common practice. When the harmony is freed from that constrained grammar you can create all kinds of tone sets (chords.)



                When you look at music and combinatorics these contrasting aspects of Ars Combinatoria and 12-tone or other eclectic modern styles.






                share|improve this answer



























                  2












                  2








                  2







                  This may help. https://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations-calculator.html



                  I don't know this math so a calculator in Enlish helps me!



                  • Types to choose from? 7

                  • Number Chosen? 3

                  • Is Order important? No

                  • Is Repetition allowed? No

                  Combinations without repetition (n=7, r=3)
                  Using Items: a,b,c,d,e,f,g



                  List has 35 entries.
                  abc abd abe abf abg acd ace acf acg ade adf adg aef aeg afg bcd bce bcf bcg bde bdf bdg bef beg bfg cde cdf cdg cef ceg cfg def deg dfg efg



                  But that included tertian triads ace & seventh chords acg, quartal ade, tone clusters abc etc.




                  But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?




                  Yes. Even in fairly basic classical harmony, the seventh chords on ii and V are so common that 9 would be the bare minimum of major diatonic chords. Sequential harmony using all 7 diatonic seventh chords is a common pattern so that would be 14 chords. If you are looking for a rough number of chords for diatonic, functional harmony in a single key (not scale) 9-14 seems reasonable.




                  double harmonic major... diatonic chords... random notes from a scale... combinatorics




                  I think a lot of concepts are packed together.



                  With exotic scales like the double harmonic I think the typical approach is not building triads on each scale degree. It's more likely to be a folk music style or some eclectic modern style. 'Chords of the double harmonic scale' or the 'diatonic chords of double harmonic' isn't really a standard thing. Of course you can do it, but there aren't necessarily conventions to follow.



                  Combinatorics comes up in classical styles, but it seems to be mostly about permuting melodic material. Chords and harmony don't get treated with interchangeable reordering. ii6 V7 I doesn't get permuted into ii6 I V7 and V7 ii6 I, etc. Also, I think a lot of the melodic combinations are constrained to harmony. So, CEG can become CGE, GEC,GCE, etc. Permutations of the notes of the chord. But the scale setCDEFGABC` is not just randomly permuted. So while there is the idea of Ars Combinatoria in the common practice ear it wasn't random. In those styles harmony followed a kind of grammar that could not be arbitrarily re-ordered. Chord construction as well wasn't random sets of tones from a scale. You can get dozens or hundreds of 'chords' from a seven tone scale, but they won't be common practice chords.



                  Contrast that with 12 tone music where the whole point was to treat the 12 chromatic tones equally and un-do the harmonic grammar of common practice. When the harmony is freed from that constrained grammar you can create all kinds of tone sets (chords.)



                  When you look at music and combinatorics these contrasting aspects of Ars Combinatoria and 12-tone or other eclectic modern styles.






                  share|improve this answer















                  This may help. https://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations-calculator.html



                  I don't know this math so a calculator in Enlish helps me!



                  • Types to choose from? 7

                  • Number Chosen? 3

                  • Is Order important? No

                  • Is Repetition allowed? No

                  Combinations without repetition (n=7, r=3)
                  Using Items: a,b,c,d,e,f,g



                  List has 35 entries.
                  abc abd abe abf abg acd ace acf acg ade adf adg aef aeg afg bcd bce bcf bcg bde bdf bdg bef beg bfg cde cdf cdg cef ceg cfg def deg dfg efg



                  But that included tertian triads ace & seventh chords acg, quartal ade, tone clusters abc etc.




                  But in any case, is there more than seven chords in a scale?




                  Yes. Even in fairly basic classical harmony, the seventh chords on ii and V are so common that 9 would be the bare minimum of major diatonic chords. Sequential harmony using all 7 diatonic seventh chords is a common pattern so that would be 14 chords. If you are looking for a rough number of chords for diatonic, functional harmony in a single key (not scale) 9-14 seems reasonable.




                  double harmonic major... diatonic chords... random notes from a scale... combinatorics




                  I think a lot of concepts are packed together.



                  With exotic scales like the double harmonic I think the typical approach is not building triads on each scale degree. It's more likely to be a folk music style or some eclectic modern style. 'Chords of the double harmonic scale' or the 'diatonic chords of double harmonic' isn't really a standard thing. Of course you can do it, but there aren't necessarily conventions to follow.



                  Combinatorics comes up in classical styles, but it seems to be mostly about permuting melodic material. Chords and harmony don't get treated with interchangeable reordering. ii6 V7 I doesn't get permuted into ii6 I V7 and V7 ii6 I, etc. Also, I think a lot of the melodic combinations are constrained to harmony. So, CEG can become CGE, GEC,GCE, etc. Permutations of the notes of the chord. But the scale setCDEFGABC` is not just randomly permuted. So while there is the idea of Ars Combinatoria in the common practice ear it wasn't random. In those styles harmony followed a kind of grammar that could not be arbitrarily re-ordered. Chord construction as well wasn't random sets of tones from a scale. You can get dozens or hundreds of 'chords' from a seven tone scale, but they won't be common practice chords.



                  Contrast that with 12 tone music where the whole point was to treat the 12 chromatic tones equally and un-do the harmonic grammar of common practice. When the harmony is freed from that constrained grammar you can create all kinds of tone sets (chords.)



                  When you look at music and combinatorics these contrasting aspects of Ars Combinatoria and 12-tone or other eclectic modern styles.







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                  edited 3 hours ago

























                  answered 7 hours ago









                  Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

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