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What should I do about a religious player who refuses to accept the existence of multiple gods in D&D?


Best answer for people concerned about RPG activities being occult or dangerous?Can I be a follower of an evil god and not be evil?Two players are leaving, and there are conflicting desires for what to do with their PCs. How do I make everyone happy?Which Good Forgotten Realms gods accept the use of necromancy?How can I talk to an experienced player about metagaming?How else can I deal with a problem player?Who are the gods/deities with most followers?Can a demigod drown?What do I do when a player refuses to accept my decision?How to deal with a player who refuses to learn the description of their spells and abilities?How should I deal with a player who wants to dictate loot distribution?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








30












$begingroup$


I am working on a campaign which I am going to run for a group of friends, all of whom are new to D&D.



I was discussing available classes with one of the players, more specifically classes with access to magic and the differences between them. I brought up that paladins draw their powers from the gods. The player was offended by this and made a comment about how there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin. I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are different gods, to which the player responded, "No."



I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this, but I also don't want to kick this player out because they're a close friend of mine and it would probably cause a conflict I don't want.



I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems.










share|improve this question









New contributor



eeeee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$







  • 19




    $begingroup$
    This question is a very strong candidate for Good Subjective: I'm going to advise anyone who answers this question to focus on backing their answer with experience they've had dealing with players like this.
    $endgroup$
    – Xirema
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    "there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin" — did he explain, why? does he think the paladin's magic wouldn't work, or does it offend him in some way, or what?
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    11 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Did you already know your friend to be very strongly religious in this way, or did this come as something of a surprise? Do you know if they've consumed/how they feel about any other works of fantasy fiction or such media which feature gods that are not their god?
    $endgroup$
    – Carcer
    11 hours ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    I think we need more information to understand their problem and therefore your problem. Do they object just to paladins, or to the concept of multiple gods? What do they think about wizards, tieflings, warlocks, warlock patrons, faieries, thieves, primordials, druids, elementals, aberrations, the Far Realms, resurrection magic, zombies, necromancy, ghosts, devas, devils, demons? Not much use solving a paladin and/or polytheism problem if they’re just going to run into warlocks a few pages further and declare that nobody should play one of those either, because of undisclosed reasons.
    $endgroup$
    – SevenSidedDie
    10 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I've closed this as primarily opinion based, as "What should I do?" is pretty much a matter of opinion that depends on what your goal is. (Change everything to make them comfortable, kick them out, burn them at the stake, go out for burritos; all are theoretically valid "what should I do?" options though which is best and which ones are a bad idea depends on opinion.) What are you aiming for here? I imagine one of your primary goals is to just have a game with (at least most of) your friends.
    $endgroup$
    – doppelgreener
    6 hours ago


















30












$begingroup$


I am working on a campaign which I am going to run for a group of friends, all of whom are new to D&D.



I was discussing available classes with one of the players, more specifically classes with access to magic and the differences between them. I brought up that paladins draw their powers from the gods. The player was offended by this and made a comment about how there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin. I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are different gods, to which the player responded, "No."



I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this, but I also don't want to kick this player out because they're a close friend of mine and it would probably cause a conflict I don't want.



I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems.










share|improve this question









New contributor



eeeee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$







  • 19




    $begingroup$
    This question is a very strong candidate for Good Subjective: I'm going to advise anyone who answers this question to focus on backing their answer with experience they've had dealing with players like this.
    $endgroup$
    – Xirema
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    "there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin" — did he explain, why? does he think the paladin's magic wouldn't work, or does it offend him in some way, or what?
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    11 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Did you already know your friend to be very strongly religious in this way, or did this come as something of a surprise? Do you know if they've consumed/how they feel about any other works of fantasy fiction or such media which feature gods that are not their god?
    $endgroup$
    – Carcer
    11 hours ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    I think we need more information to understand their problem and therefore your problem. Do they object just to paladins, or to the concept of multiple gods? What do they think about wizards, tieflings, warlocks, warlock patrons, faieries, thieves, primordials, druids, elementals, aberrations, the Far Realms, resurrection magic, zombies, necromancy, ghosts, devas, devils, demons? Not much use solving a paladin and/or polytheism problem if they’re just going to run into warlocks a few pages further and declare that nobody should play one of those either, because of undisclosed reasons.
    $endgroup$
    – SevenSidedDie
    10 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I've closed this as primarily opinion based, as "What should I do?" is pretty much a matter of opinion that depends on what your goal is. (Change everything to make them comfortable, kick them out, burn them at the stake, go out for burritos; all are theoretically valid "what should I do?" options though which is best and which ones are a bad idea depends on opinion.) What are you aiming for here? I imagine one of your primary goals is to just have a game with (at least most of) your friends.
    $endgroup$
    – doppelgreener
    6 hours ago














30












30








30


1



$begingroup$


I am working on a campaign which I am going to run for a group of friends, all of whom are new to D&D.



I was discussing available classes with one of the players, more specifically classes with access to magic and the differences between them. I brought up that paladins draw their powers from the gods. The player was offended by this and made a comment about how there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin. I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are different gods, to which the player responded, "No."



I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this, but I also don't want to kick this player out because they're a close friend of mine and it would probably cause a conflict I don't want.



I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems.










share|improve this question









New contributor



eeeee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




I am working on a campaign which I am going to run for a group of friends, all of whom are new to D&D.



I was discussing available classes with one of the players, more specifically classes with access to magic and the differences between them. I brought up that paladins draw their powers from the gods. The player was offended by this and made a comment about how there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin. I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are different gods, to which the player responded, "No."



I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this, but I also don't want to kick this player out because they're a close friend of mine and it would probably cause a conflict I don't want.



I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems.







dnd-5e problem-players religions-and-deities






share|improve this question









New contributor



eeeee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question









New contributor



eeeee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 10 hours ago









Rubiksmoose

66.6k10323480




66.6k10323480






New contributor



eeeee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked 11 hours ago









eeeeeeeeee

15113




15113




New contributor



eeeee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor




eeeee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









  • 19




    $begingroup$
    This question is a very strong candidate for Good Subjective: I'm going to advise anyone who answers this question to focus on backing their answer with experience they've had dealing with players like this.
    $endgroup$
    – Xirema
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    "there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin" — did he explain, why? does he think the paladin's magic wouldn't work, or does it offend him in some way, or what?
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    11 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Did you already know your friend to be very strongly religious in this way, or did this come as something of a surprise? Do you know if they've consumed/how they feel about any other works of fantasy fiction or such media which feature gods that are not their god?
    $endgroup$
    – Carcer
    11 hours ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    I think we need more information to understand their problem and therefore your problem. Do they object just to paladins, or to the concept of multiple gods? What do they think about wizards, tieflings, warlocks, warlock patrons, faieries, thieves, primordials, druids, elementals, aberrations, the Far Realms, resurrection magic, zombies, necromancy, ghosts, devas, devils, demons? Not much use solving a paladin and/or polytheism problem if they’re just going to run into warlocks a few pages further and declare that nobody should play one of those either, because of undisclosed reasons.
    $endgroup$
    – SevenSidedDie
    10 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I've closed this as primarily opinion based, as "What should I do?" is pretty much a matter of opinion that depends on what your goal is. (Change everything to make them comfortable, kick them out, burn them at the stake, go out for burritos; all are theoretically valid "what should I do?" options though which is best and which ones are a bad idea depends on opinion.) What are you aiming for here? I imagine one of your primary goals is to just have a game with (at least most of) your friends.
    $endgroup$
    – doppelgreener
    6 hours ago













  • 19




    $begingroup$
    This question is a very strong candidate for Good Subjective: I'm going to advise anyone who answers this question to focus on backing their answer with experience they've had dealing with players like this.
    $endgroup$
    – Xirema
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    "there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin" — did he explain, why? does he think the paladin's magic wouldn't work, or does it offend him in some way, or what?
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    11 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Did you already know your friend to be very strongly religious in this way, or did this come as something of a surprise? Do you know if they've consumed/how they feel about any other works of fantasy fiction or such media which feature gods that are not their god?
    $endgroup$
    – Carcer
    11 hours ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    I think we need more information to understand their problem and therefore your problem. Do they object just to paladins, or to the concept of multiple gods? What do they think about wizards, tieflings, warlocks, warlock patrons, faieries, thieves, primordials, druids, elementals, aberrations, the Far Realms, resurrection magic, zombies, necromancy, ghosts, devas, devils, demons? Not much use solving a paladin and/or polytheism problem if they’re just going to run into warlocks a few pages further and declare that nobody should play one of those either, because of undisclosed reasons.
    $endgroup$
    – SevenSidedDie
    10 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I've closed this as primarily opinion based, as "What should I do?" is pretty much a matter of opinion that depends on what your goal is. (Change everything to make them comfortable, kick them out, burn them at the stake, go out for burritos; all are theoretically valid "what should I do?" options though which is best and which ones are a bad idea depends on opinion.) What are you aiming for here? I imagine one of your primary goals is to just have a game with (at least most of) your friends.
    $endgroup$
    – doppelgreener
    6 hours ago








19




19




$begingroup$
This question is a very strong candidate for Good Subjective: I'm going to advise anyone who answers this question to focus on backing their answer with experience they've had dealing with players like this.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
This question is a very strong candidate for Good Subjective: I'm going to advise anyone who answers this question to focus on backing their answer with experience they've had dealing with players like this.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
11 hours ago




5




5




$begingroup$
"there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin" — did he explain, why? does he think the paladin's magic wouldn't work, or does it offend him in some way, or what?
$endgroup$
– enkryptor
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
"there is only one god and no one should be allowed to play as a paladin" — did he explain, why? does he think the paladin's magic wouldn't work, or does it offend him in some way, or what?
$endgroup$
– enkryptor
11 hours ago




4




4




$begingroup$
Did you already know your friend to be very strongly religious in this way, or did this come as something of a surprise? Do you know if they've consumed/how they feel about any other works of fantasy fiction or such media which feature gods that are not their god?
$endgroup$
– Carcer
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
Did you already know your friend to be very strongly religious in this way, or did this come as something of a surprise? Do you know if they've consumed/how they feel about any other works of fantasy fiction or such media which feature gods that are not their god?
$endgroup$
– Carcer
11 hours ago




13




13




$begingroup$
I think we need more information to understand their problem and therefore your problem. Do they object just to paladins, or to the concept of multiple gods? What do they think about wizards, tieflings, warlocks, warlock patrons, faieries, thieves, primordials, druids, elementals, aberrations, the Far Realms, resurrection magic, zombies, necromancy, ghosts, devas, devils, demons? Not much use solving a paladin and/or polytheism problem if they’re just going to run into warlocks a few pages further and declare that nobody should play one of those either, because of undisclosed reasons.
$endgroup$
– SevenSidedDie
10 hours ago





$begingroup$
I think we need more information to understand their problem and therefore your problem. Do they object just to paladins, or to the concept of multiple gods? What do they think about wizards, tieflings, warlocks, warlock patrons, faieries, thieves, primordials, druids, elementals, aberrations, the Far Realms, resurrection magic, zombies, necromancy, ghosts, devas, devils, demons? Not much use solving a paladin and/or polytheism problem if they’re just going to run into warlocks a few pages further and declare that nobody should play one of those either, because of undisclosed reasons.
$endgroup$
– SevenSidedDie
10 hours ago





4




4




$begingroup$
I've closed this as primarily opinion based, as "What should I do?" is pretty much a matter of opinion that depends on what your goal is. (Change everything to make them comfortable, kick them out, burn them at the stake, go out for burritos; all are theoretically valid "what should I do?" options though which is best and which ones are a bad idea depends on opinion.) What are you aiming for here? I imagine one of your primary goals is to just have a game with (at least most of) your friends.
$endgroup$
– doppelgreener
6 hours ago





$begingroup$
I've closed this as primarily opinion based, as "What should I do?" is pretty much a matter of opinion that depends on what your goal is. (Change everything to make them comfortable, kick them out, burn them at the stake, go out for burritos; all are theoretically valid "what should I do?" options though which is best and which ones are a bad idea depends on opinion.) What are you aiming for here? I imagine one of your primary goals is to just have a game with (at least most of) your friends.
$endgroup$
– doppelgreener
6 hours ago











8 Answers
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active

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$begingroup$

The largest issue here, from what I can tell, seems to be that your player is unwilling to accept anything outside of their current worldview, or paradigm.



Regardless of what RPG system you use (at least almost, I'm sure there are exceptions), you're going to run into situations where the game's reality is fundamentally different from ours in some way.



One of the great things about RPGs is they can challenge our worldviews, and allow us to explore realities different than our own. If your player isn't interested in exploring that, then maybe RPGs aren't their kind of game.



You have to consider the ramifications of other aspects here as well, like the concept of undead, resurrection, demons, devils, or even the concepts of magic and casting spells. It doesn't seem like a big leap to think if your player has an issue with Paladins and polytheism, that there might be some other issues along the way.



The fact that your player seems unwilling to suspend disbelief and explore a reality different than their own doesn't bode well for a) playing a fantasy game, or b) playing such a game with different people that may behave unpredictably.



I haven't dealt with this explicit situation where a religious player is unwilling to adapt, and I imagine there are only a few of us on this site that have, but I've encountered plenty of other scenarios where people get in the mindset of "I'm right and you can't tell me otherwise, even though the situation calls for it."



The best you can do is include them and encourage them to "play pretend" with their friends for a couple hours. Remind them of classic fantasy series like C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia or of J.R.R. Tolkein's The Lord of the Rings. Both of those authors had strong religious beliefs yet were able to translate them to fantasy settings.



The long and short of it is, there's no good way to "convince" your player to play D&D and there's no good way to sculpt D&D to their ideals. It's all about perspective, and hopefully your player can come around to the idea that this is really just pretend.



If not, then the answer may be that you just don't play RPGs with them.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This is a great answer, but I think you could go further with Lewis and Tolkien. Remember that The Chronicles of Narnia are a very thinly veiled allegory for Christian doctrine. Tolkien expressly avoided allegory or any type of moralizing, but his own Christianity still influenced his fiction in fairly clear ways. Lewis also wrote "Till We Have Faces" which is an even more obvious allegory and metaphor for certain Christian doctrines dressed up in Graeco-Roman myths with polytheistic deities playing major roles in the story.
    $endgroup$
    – TimothyAWiseman
    10 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Unfortunately, I don't think I'm educated enough on C.S. Lewis's works to really go into the details. I included the Chronicles series because I know it's a thinly-veiled allegory and it seems to reconcile to two concepts well. It's more proof that it's possible to meet in the middle and it could give the player some perspective on how to do that. While I'm sure the specifics of some of his other works like The Screwtape Letters, which deals with demons and devils, might be able to support my answer, I feel like that may go down the religious rabbit hole a bit more than I want to
    $endgroup$
    – G. Moylan
    10 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    another challenging aspect i see is when another player does something that's outright evil in the game. are they going to think that person is ACTUALLY evil in real life? i think sitting down and talking with this person over what's going on is the best move forward.
    $endgroup$
    – DForck42
    9 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @G.Moylan This is a good explanation for why the player would be uncomfortable with D&D and similar systems, although I'd advise a more flexible ending. If keeping this player is a priority, there are plenty of RPGs that don't involve religious symbols and could be more accessible to this player.
    $endgroup$
    – MikeQ
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @mikeq there are, although the OP specifically mentioned not wanting to change systems. He did also mention not cutting this player, but I suggest that only as a last resort
    $endgroup$
    – G. Moylan
    3 hours ago


















26












$begingroup$

One player should not be allowed to force his personal views on the other players. If he has a problem with Paladins, he's not going to react well to Clerics either.



This player needs to realize that the game world is not the real world, and it does not need to conform to his ideas of how the real world works. There are other stories - Greek and Roman, alongside a broad number of non-D&D fantasy works - that feature pantheism.



Unfortunately, if your player is vehemently opposed to the very concept of pantheism, you probably won't be able to convince him otherwise. Your best bet may be to remove him from the game. For the health of the game and the integrity of the teaching experience, it's best to do it before play has begun, rather than try to eject him later.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 13




    $begingroup$
    You mention problems with Clerics and Paladins. When they breach the subjects of summoning and interacting with dead/undead, demons, and devils, I imagine even more issues arising. This is potentially a huge can of worms and I think your evaluation here is correct that it's better to pre-empt the problem by removing it.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Moylan
    11 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    To be a little bit more precise: "One person should not be allowed to force his personal views on other people"...
    $endgroup$
    – Jorge Córdoba
    11 hours ago






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    Is this answer, specifically your last paragraph, based in any kind of experience that you can use to support your answer?
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    11 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Much as this answer strikes me as being a fair assessment of the situation, as Rubiksmoose suggests this is a kind of question where answers really need to be backed up with relevant experience in dealing with issues of this kind. (I think it's probably even fine if the relevant experience isn't even directly RPG-related and was a similar issue in some other context, but there needs to be experience and not just armchair speculation.)
    $endgroup$
    – Carcer
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. I see your point. In this "real" world, there are actually people who are pantheists. This fantasy game is no different. The player is more than welcome to impose their own handicap on their character to believe there is only one god in the game while others do ascribe to that viewpoint. His/her RP will like contain a bit of proselytizing, that can lead to "my guy syndrome" but it might be tolerable amongst your table.
    $endgroup$
    – Jammin4CO
    8 hours ago


















8












$begingroup$


I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this




You have a couple of options:



  • Dungeon Master's Guide has a variant for a monotheistic setting (at least in 5th edition). You can use it, if it works for you.

  • Don't touch the religion topic at all. If your setting requires polytheism, don't call them "gods", call them "powerful entities". Yes, some people pray to them.

  • Distinguish player's beliefs and character's beliefs. It's a game, where you're supposed to kill people and loot their bodies. I don't think you do the same things in real life.

Whatever approach you take, you need to make it clear to this player that they hold no veto over other players' choices. (thanks @frog)






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Do you have any experience using these techniques to solve a similar issue?
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    11 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also does the fact that a player refuses to accept one fictional premise not ring any kind of alarm bells for how comfortable this player might be in a fantasy setting in general? I have a strong suspicion that the player may not react positively to the idea of undead or magic or other worlds as well. Would you advise OP to change those aspects of the world as well to suit this player?
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    10 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @enkryptor even if you haven't had this particular problem at the table, sharing your experience dealing with players who object to details in your worldbuilding, or with reskinning elements your players object to (as your second bullet advocates) would be excellent support. As is, though, this answer is drawing flags for being unsupported speculation.
    $endgroup$
    – nitsua60
    10 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @enkryptor It may be worth including this quote from the DMG (related to the monotheistic variant) in your answer "If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
    $endgroup$
    – illustro
    10 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @illustro You're right! I missed the line "" If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
    $endgroup$
    – NautArch
    9 hours ago


















8












$begingroup$

Have an open discussion with your player on the type of game D&D is and the setting you will be playing in.



A single player shouldn't be dictating what classes everyone at the table can and can't play, and you will need to talk to your player about this. Here's my advice on how you might want to shape that discussion:




  • Do not criticize your player's religious beliefs. - Doing so will most likely cause them to become defensive, shut down, and close the door to further conversation. Don't approach this as a problem stemming from the player's religion (because it probably isn't), but one coming from the fact that they don't understand the game yet.


  • Try to find some common ground. - Point out the ways in which D&D, and particularly the setting that you are playing in, departs from your own beliefs (religious or otherwise). Explain to the player why playing the game doesn't bother you despite those things. Maybe you don't believe in ghosts, zombies, or magic, but they all exist in your setting anyway. Tell your player about how they add to the adventure without really challenging your beliefs; it's a fantasy game, after all.


  • Explain to your player that D&D takes place in a fantasy setting that is not a reflection of reality. Try giving your player a quick description of your setting, emphasizing the ways in which it departs from reality. Is your player ok with a world that contains Elf Wizards, Gnome Sorcerers, Owlbears, and Flail Snails, but not one that contains multiple gods? Try asking them why that might be the case. Is the one any more fantastical than the other? Pointing out some of the more ridiculous things in the game may help make the point with a bit of humor.


  • Make sure your player understands the difference between roleplaying and real belief. Remind your player that the beliefs of the character don't always align with the beliefs of the player. I've had atheist friends take on the roles of zealous Paladins of Bahamut. Did those players actually believe that there is a Platinum Dragon living on the sacred Mount Celestia? Of course not, but they enjoyed playing the game in that role. Making a comparison to actors on a stage or in a movie may help. An actor in the role of Shakespeare's Macbeth might well portray the role of a hero descending into a power-hungry tyrant, but this is not a reflection of the actor's character or beliefs.

Hopefully after a conversation, your player will come to realize that just as the just as D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics, it doesn't necessarily adhere to spiritual laws either. That departure from reality can be a big part of the fun if everyone can get on board.



If your player doesn't see your point of view after a discussion, or understands but simply decides that this doesn't sound like the game for them, that's ok too. Maybe they can create a different setting or find a different role-playing game that fits them better and they can DM a game for you.



Hopefully this helps give you an idea of how to approach this conversation.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Have you tried these? How have they worked out?
    $endgroup$
    – NautArch
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is entirely peripheral to your answer, but there's a very large difference between that tweet you linked to and "D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics", and by interpreting it that way you're reinforcing a common misconception. Since it is peripheral to your answer, I suggest you leave it out.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    52 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Adding to this answer, the OP is not obligated to persuade this player or to provide an explanation that the player finds acceptable. That way lies madness and frustration.
    $endgroup$
    – EvilSnack
    43 mins ago



















4












$begingroup$

Problem: the player doesn't understand player and DM roles



This may not be solvable. And it may be. Don't play until this is settled.




I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are
different gods, to which the player responded, "No."




Your first answer to this is "Yes, it is, and if you don't accept that, then you are unable to play in this game." There are two reasons for this position as the way forward if you want them included in a D&D 5e game. (But I am not sure that this is about the game in the first place ... we'll save that for later).



  1. This particular game is structurally built to be an exploration of a subset of the lands of make believe, with magic and strange things that are not in this world.



  2. The DM is in charge of the world and that cosmos (to include such deites as the cosmos has) and - this is the key point - the DM's rule on that is the last word. See the DMG sections on "Master of Worlds" and "Master of Rules" in the opening chapter for more detail (pages 3-5). You need to brush up on your understanding of this system for your own benefit.



    There are a wide variety of role playing games where the world building itself, from the ground up, is a collaborative exercise. D&D 5e isn't one of them as laid out in the DMG at the structural level of world building.



There are a variety of ways that players in D&D 5e contribute to world building.



Each table will have a variation on how much the players flesh the world out.




  • I've seen it go from nothing, to the point in my brother's campaign
    where I recommended we add a deity, outlined its portfolio, and my
    brother, the DM, approved it.



    And we've seen all points in between.




  • In my first 5e campaign, I didn't find a deity that I liked in
    Faerun, so I worked with the DM and asked about some options. We
    settled on Thor. Notice that I didn't say "NO, ONLY THOR!" I worked
    with the DM to come up with a deal that we both liked. (With your player,
    see below).



    Telling you who the deities are or are not is beyond the player's level of contribution unless you (per my examples above) are amenable to a change in the deity line up, and for that matter, your other players are as well as interested parties.



    1. If you are playing in the baseline "Forgotten Realms" setting, the
      deities are listed in the PHB in Appendix B. So too are a variety
      of other pantheons such as Dragonlance, Eberron, Greyhawk, as well as Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, Norse, etc).


    2. If you are playing in your own world, whatever that world works like
      is how it works, deities or no. See the DMG for detailed treatment of that.



Sit down with this player and show them that you are the Master of Worlds per the DMG. It's in writing. The DMG is your support in this case, but this player apparently needs more than your say so. (See below for how this may be a symptom of a bigger problem).



If they still do not accept this premise, then D&D 5e isn't the game you ought to be using if you want this player to be included. They are toxic and will be a problem for your whole group.



It may be best to pick another game



For raw world building you can try Microscope. Some of the veteran players here have used Microscope as a prelude game to get an idea on what the world will look like before they embark on an adventure game in "another world" or in another time and place . There are numerous other games where the GM role isn't spelled out as having so much say in what the cosmos looks like. Those may be a better fit for your group if you really want to have this player included.



For a game with no gods (or very few), try Traveller. (Been years since I've played; there is some helpful advice here).



Lastly, you are being pushed: this has begun as a test of wills



Your player obviously has strong feelings, and may have a very strong personality. It may be that, when it comes to a test of wills IRL, they may be less willing to compromise than you are. If that is the relationship between you two, you've got an interpersonal issue to deal with that may not fit with playing RPGs together.



A rule learned by hard experience over the years: bad gaming is not better than no gaming.



If this kind of pushy behavior is to be expected session after session, there is no point in embarking on the game with this player included. I've seen games broken up, and in a couple of cases, friendships ruined, all thanks to disputes over a game. Yeah, it's an awful experience. An RPG isn't worth ruining a friendship over. (In my opinion and from bitter experience.)



"I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems"



It's your life: unless you get some movement on this player's part, you are setting yourself up for a hard time. If you want a train wreck, you can ignore what experience has taught me. Find out how the other players feel about this: actively solicit their input. Spend the time and effort to build a consensus. You need the buy in of all players, or you'll be wasting your efforts as a DM.



We play these games to have fun, not to get into an argument each time play starts.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$

    To try and add something that I don't believe I saw in the other answers: Allow this player to play a character who believes only in their deity, and in their probably lawful alignment. Magic from various sources is going to have to be explained away somehow.



    • Does this player have an issue with magic of any kind being a slight against their religion?


    • How does this player react to other religions and pantheons in real life?


    • What about in books/movies/series?


    • Would this player get along well with other players whose meta- or in-character beliefs clash?


    • How does this player handle losing in general? It may seem unrelated, but if even the concept of flexibility for game setting is so difficult, it could translate into other aspects of RP Gaming. They may not have an easy time accepting contradictions to what they want their character to do and what happens.


    As long as you can find a gray zone where the character's willful ignorance (because as the DM you know for a fact what exists in your world) can appease the player's sensibilities. Even if they call it demons (which other than warlocks is questionable), it allows them to exist in a world with other beings.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      You'll Need to have a Very Frank Chat with your Friend



      There are plenty of ways you could compromise so that HIS character can worship the "one true God"- he can even try to persuade his fellow players to convert (in character, of course). What he CANNOT do is dictate what content you can put in the world, or what choices other players make for their characters. Doing so not only undermines the other players' enjoyment of the game, it makes it so you cannot do your job as DM effectively. If your friend cannot agree to that, it's perfectly OK to politely suggest that D&D might not be a good fit for him.



      Compromise is still Important



      Having said that, tailoring your campaign to suit your players is something all good DMs should do. You need to know your players and create an environment where they can all enjoy themselves, and just as you'd avoid creating a role-playing scenario around a real-life trauma you know a friend has suffered, you should be aware if your campaign is going to make one or more of your players really uncomfortable, and try to find a way around it



      A Possible Compromise You Might Consider



      Perhaps your friend's character practices a faith that believes that the "gods" of different pantheons are all actually aspects of the "one true god". In a last ditch effort to save all of creation, the "one true god" sacrificed itself millennia ago- but since it couldn't be destroyed, it was instead shattered into fragments people now draw power from. His character is trying to live a life devoted to that one true god, in a world that has forgotten the origins of the "gods" they follow and fight over.



      For your friend, this could be compared to role-playing what life may have been like for early Christians in the Roman era, when the majority of the population had a different set of beliefs, and his faith was potentially dangerous. Most importantly, he'll be role-playing living in a world where no one feels it is necessary to concede to his world view.



      Be Prepared, Though



      Still, I have to agree with G. Moylan's answer that the objections of the player in question are unlikely to stop at polytheism- you're going to have push-back the first time you introduce the undead, or magic, or any number of other things. 5e is moving in a very socially progressive direction these days, so you'll probably need to decide early on whether you want to embrace same-sex marriages, gender-changing elves and the like.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$








      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Have you had this talk? Did you try the compromise? How was it received?
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        7 hours ago


















      1












      $begingroup$

      Once upon a time, D&D got a lot of press as a Tool of Satan that turns innocent children into murderous devil worshipers. Obviously that is BS, but American culture at the time was more fundamentalist than today and the attitudes of this "problem" player were not uncommon. Those of us who were not adults also had to deal with parents who were even more likely to have these type of concerns.



      What most of us did was explain the polytheistic aspects away by saying that the various "gods" in the game are just different aspects of the One God. Another similar approach was to describe the gods as servants of the One God something like saints in the Roman Catholic church. If you are playing Forgotten Realms then you can point to Ao as this higher power. I have not played any of the other current realms so I don't know what they have in this role. Mechanically nothing changes but making a semantic change in the label was generally enough to allay worries. A person either wants to play and will find a way to rationalize away their concerns or they will decide the game is "evil" and they will go away on their own.



      I should note that it was easier back then since clerics and paladins were all the same no matter what deity they chose. Alignment could make a difference but deity could generally just be ignored since it was really just a role playing concern rather than a mechanical issue like it is in modern editions.






      share|improve this answer









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        $begingroup$

        The largest issue here, from what I can tell, seems to be that your player is unwilling to accept anything outside of their current worldview, or paradigm.



        Regardless of what RPG system you use (at least almost, I'm sure there are exceptions), you're going to run into situations where the game's reality is fundamentally different from ours in some way.



        One of the great things about RPGs is they can challenge our worldviews, and allow us to explore realities different than our own. If your player isn't interested in exploring that, then maybe RPGs aren't their kind of game.



        You have to consider the ramifications of other aspects here as well, like the concept of undead, resurrection, demons, devils, or even the concepts of magic and casting spells. It doesn't seem like a big leap to think if your player has an issue with Paladins and polytheism, that there might be some other issues along the way.



        The fact that your player seems unwilling to suspend disbelief and explore a reality different than their own doesn't bode well for a) playing a fantasy game, or b) playing such a game with different people that may behave unpredictably.



        I haven't dealt with this explicit situation where a religious player is unwilling to adapt, and I imagine there are only a few of us on this site that have, but I've encountered plenty of other scenarios where people get in the mindset of "I'm right and you can't tell me otherwise, even though the situation calls for it."



        The best you can do is include them and encourage them to "play pretend" with their friends for a couple hours. Remind them of classic fantasy series like C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia or of J.R.R. Tolkein's The Lord of the Rings. Both of those authors had strong religious beliefs yet were able to translate them to fantasy settings.



        The long and short of it is, there's no good way to "convince" your player to play D&D and there's no good way to sculpt D&D to their ideals. It's all about perspective, and hopefully your player can come around to the idea that this is really just pretend.



        If not, then the answer may be that you just don't play RPGs with them.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          This is a great answer, but I think you could go further with Lewis and Tolkien. Remember that The Chronicles of Narnia are a very thinly veiled allegory for Christian doctrine. Tolkien expressly avoided allegory or any type of moralizing, but his own Christianity still influenced his fiction in fairly clear ways. Lewis also wrote "Till We Have Faces" which is an even more obvious allegory and metaphor for certain Christian doctrines dressed up in Graeco-Roman myths with polytheistic deities playing major roles in the story.
          $endgroup$
          – TimothyAWiseman
          10 hours ago







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Unfortunately, I don't think I'm educated enough on C.S. Lewis's works to really go into the details. I included the Chronicles series because I know it's a thinly-veiled allegory and it seems to reconcile to two concepts well. It's more proof that it's possible to meet in the middle and it could give the player some perspective on how to do that. While I'm sure the specifics of some of his other works like The Screwtape Letters, which deals with demons and devils, might be able to support my answer, I feel like that may go down the religious rabbit hole a bit more than I want to
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          10 hours ago






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          another challenging aspect i see is when another player does something that's outright evil in the game. are they going to think that person is ACTUALLY evil in real life? i think sitting down and talking with this person over what's going on is the best move forward.
          $endgroup$
          – DForck42
          9 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @G.Moylan This is a good explanation for why the player would be uncomfortable with D&D and similar systems, although I'd advise a more flexible ending. If keeping this player is a priority, there are plenty of RPGs that don't involve religious symbols and could be more accessible to this player.
          $endgroup$
          – MikeQ
          3 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @mikeq there are, although the OP specifically mentioned not wanting to change systems. He did also mention not cutting this player, but I suggest that only as a last resort
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          3 hours ago















        33












        $begingroup$

        The largest issue here, from what I can tell, seems to be that your player is unwilling to accept anything outside of their current worldview, or paradigm.



        Regardless of what RPG system you use (at least almost, I'm sure there are exceptions), you're going to run into situations where the game's reality is fundamentally different from ours in some way.



        One of the great things about RPGs is they can challenge our worldviews, and allow us to explore realities different than our own. If your player isn't interested in exploring that, then maybe RPGs aren't their kind of game.



        You have to consider the ramifications of other aspects here as well, like the concept of undead, resurrection, demons, devils, or even the concepts of magic and casting spells. It doesn't seem like a big leap to think if your player has an issue with Paladins and polytheism, that there might be some other issues along the way.



        The fact that your player seems unwilling to suspend disbelief and explore a reality different than their own doesn't bode well for a) playing a fantasy game, or b) playing such a game with different people that may behave unpredictably.



        I haven't dealt with this explicit situation where a religious player is unwilling to adapt, and I imagine there are only a few of us on this site that have, but I've encountered plenty of other scenarios where people get in the mindset of "I'm right and you can't tell me otherwise, even though the situation calls for it."



        The best you can do is include them and encourage them to "play pretend" with their friends for a couple hours. Remind them of classic fantasy series like C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia or of J.R.R. Tolkein's The Lord of the Rings. Both of those authors had strong religious beliefs yet were able to translate them to fantasy settings.



        The long and short of it is, there's no good way to "convince" your player to play D&D and there's no good way to sculpt D&D to their ideals. It's all about perspective, and hopefully your player can come around to the idea that this is really just pretend.



        If not, then the answer may be that you just don't play RPGs with them.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          This is a great answer, but I think you could go further with Lewis and Tolkien. Remember that The Chronicles of Narnia are a very thinly veiled allegory for Christian doctrine. Tolkien expressly avoided allegory or any type of moralizing, but his own Christianity still influenced his fiction in fairly clear ways. Lewis also wrote "Till We Have Faces" which is an even more obvious allegory and metaphor for certain Christian doctrines dressed up in Graeco-Roman myths with polytheistic deities playing major roles in the story.
          $endgroup$
          – TimothyAWiseman
          10 hours ago







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Unfortunately, I don't think I'm educated enough on C.S. Lewis's works to really go into the details. I included the Chronicles series because I know it's a thinly-veiled allegory and it seems to reconcile to two concepts well. It's more proof that it's possible to meet in the middle and it could give the player some perspective on how to do that. While I'm sure the specifics of some of his other works like The Screwtape Letters, which deals with demons and devils, might be able to support my answer, I feel like that may go down the religious rabbit hole a bit more than I want to
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          10 hours ago






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          another challenging aspect i see is when another player does something that's outright evil in the game. are they going to think that person is ACTUALLY evil in real life? i think sitting down and talking with this person over what's going on is the best move forward.
          $endgroup$
          – DForck42
          9 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @G.Moylan This is a good explanation for why the player would be uncomfortable with D&D and similar systems, although I'd advise a more flexible ending. If keeping this player is a priority, there are plenty of RPGs that don't involve religious symbols and could be more accessible to this player.
          $endgroup$
          – MikeQ
          3 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @mikeq there are, although the OP specifically mentioned not wanting to change systems. He did also mention not cutting this player, but I suggest that only as a last resort
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          3 hours ago













        33












        33








        33





        $begingroup$

        The largest issue here, from what I can tell, seems to be that your player is unwilling to accept anything outside of their current worldview, or paradigm.



        Regardless of what RPG system you use (at least almost, I'm sure there are exceptions), you're going to run into situations where the game's reality is fundamentally different from ours in some way.



        One of the great things about RPGs is they can challenge our worldviews, and allow us to explore realities different than our own. If your player isn't interested in exploring that, then maybe RPGs aren't their kind of game.



        You have to consider the ramifications of other aspects here as well, like the concept of undead, resurrection, demons, devils, or even the concepts of magic and casting spells. It doesn't seem like a big leap to think if your player has an issue with Paladins and polytheism, that there might be some other issues along the way.



        The fact that your player seems unwilling to suspend disbelief and explore a reality different than their own doesn't bode well for a) playing a fantasy game, or b) playing such a game with different people that may behave unpredictably.



        I haven't dealt with this explicit situation where a religious player is unwilling to adapt, and I imagine there are only a few of us on this site that have, but I've encountered plenty of other scenarios where people get in the mindset of "I'm right and you can't tell me otherwise, even though the situation calls for it."



        The best you can do is include them and encourage them to "play pretend" with their friends for a couple hours. Remind them of classic fantasy series like C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia or of J.R.R. Tolkein's The Lord of the Rings. Both of those authors had strong religious beliefs yet were able to translate them to fantasy settings.



        The long and short of it is, there's no good way to "convince" your player to play D&D and there's no good way to sculpt D&D to their ideals. It's all about perspective, and hopefully your player can come around to the idea that this is really just pretend.



        If not, then the answer may be that you just don't play RPGs with them.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        The largest issue here, from what I can tell, seems to be that your player is unwilling to accept anything outside of their current worldview, or paradigm.



        Regardless of what RPG system you use (at least almost, I'm sure there are exceptions), you're going to run into situations where the game's reality is fundamentally different from ours in some way.



        One of the great things about RPGs is they can challenge our worldviews, and allow us to explore realities different than our own. If your player isn't interested in exploring that, then maybe RPGs aren't their kind of game.



        You have to consider the ramifications of other aspects here as well, like the concept of undead, resurrection, demons, devils, or even the concepts of magic and casting spells. It doesn't seem like a big leap to think if your player has an issue with Paladins and polytheism, that there might be some other issues along the way.



        The fact that your player seems unwilling to suspend disbelief and explore a reality different than their own doesn't bode well for a) playing a fantasy game, or b) playing such a game with different people that may behave unpredictably.



        I haven't dealt with this explicit situation where a religious player is unwilling to adapt, and I imagine there are only a few of us on this site that have, but I've encountered plenty of other scenarios where people get in the mindset of "I'm right and you can't tell me otherwise, even though the situation calls for it."



        The best you can do is include them and encourage them to "play pretend" with their friends for a couple hours. Remind them of classic fantasy series like C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia or of J.R.R. Tolkein's The Lord of the Rings. Both of those authors had strong religious beliefs yet were able to translate them to fantasy settings.



        The long and short of it is, there's no good way to "convince" your player to play D&D and there's no good way to sculpt D&D to their ideals. It's all about perspective, and hopefully your player can come around to the idea that this is really just pretend.



        If not, then the answer may be that you just don't play RPGs with them.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 10 hours ago

























        answered 10 hours ago









        G. MoylanG. Moylan

        1,633625




        1,633625







        • 2




          $begingroup$
          This is a great answer, but I think you could go further with Lewis and Tolkien. Remember that The Chronicles of Narnia are a very thinly veiled allegory for Christian doctrine. Tolkien expressly avoided allegory or any type of moralizing, but his own Christianity still influenced his fiction in fairly clear ways. Lewis also wrote "Till We Have Faces" which is an even more obvious allegory and metaphor for certain Christian doctrines dressed up in Graeco-Roman myths with polytheistic deities playing major roles in the story.
          $endgroup$
          – TimothyAWiseman
          10 hours ago







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Unfortunately, I don't think I'm educated enough on C.S. Lewis's works to really go into the details. I included the Chronicles series because I know it's a thinly-veiled allegory and it seems to reconcile to two concepts well. It's more proof that it's possible to meet in the middle and it could give the player some perspective on how to do that. While I'm sure the specifics of some of his other works like The Screwtape Letters, which deals with demons and devils, might be able to support my answer, I feel like that may go down the religious rabbit hole a bit more than I want to
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          10 hours ago






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          another challenging aspect i see is when another player does something that's outright evil in the game. are they going to think that person is ACTUALLY evil in real life? i think sitting down and talking with this person over what's going on is the best move forward.
          $endgroup$
          – DForck42
          9 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @G.Moylan This is a good explanation for why the player would be uncomfortable with D&D and similar systems, although I'd advise a more flexible ending. If keeping this player is a priority, there are plenty of RPGs that don't involve religious symbols and could be more accessible to this player.
          $endgroup$
          – MikeQ
          3 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @mikeq there are, although the OP specifically mentioned not wanting to change systems. He did also mention not cutting this player, but I suggest that only as a last resort
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          3 hours ago












        • 2




          $begingroup$
          This is a great answer, but I think you could go further with Lewis and Tolkien. Remember that The Chronicles of Narnia are a very thinly veiled allegory for Christian doctrine. Tolkien expressly avoided allegory or any type of moralizing, but his own Christianity still influenced his fiction in fairly clear ways. Lewis also wrote "Till We Have Faces" which is an even more obvious allegory and metaphor for certain Christian doctrines dressed up in Graeco-Roman myths with polytheistic deities playing major roles in the story.
          $endgroup$
          – TimothyAWiseman
          10 hours ago







        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Unfortunately, I don't think I'm educated enough on C.S. Lewis's works to really go into the details. I included the Chronicles series because I know it's a thinly-veiled allegory and it seems to reconcile to two concepts well. It's more proof that it's possible to meet in the middle and it could give the player some perspective on how to do that. While I'm sure the specifics of some of his other works like The Screwtape Letters, which deals with demons and devils, might be able to support my answer, I feel like that may go down the religious rabbit hole a bit more than I want to
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          10 hours ago






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          another challenging aspect i see is when another player does something that's outright evil in the game. are they going to think that person is ACTUALLY evil in real life? i think sitting down and talking with this person over what's going on is the best move forward.
          $endgroup$
          – DForck42
          9 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @G.Moylan This is a good explanation for why the player would be uncomfortable with D&D and similar systems, although I'd advise a more flexible ending. If keeping this player is a priority, there are plenty of RPGs that don't involve religious symbols and could be more accessible to this player.
          $endgroup$
          – MikeQ
          3 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @mikeq there are, although the OP specifically mentioned not wanting to change systems. He did also mention not cutting this player, but I suggest that only as a last resort
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          3 hours ago







        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        This is a great answer, but I think you could go further with Lewis and Tolkien. Remember that The Chronicles of Narnia are a very thinly veiled allegory for Christian doctrine. Tolkien expressly avoided allegory or any type of moralizing, but his own Christianity still influenced his fiction in fairly clear ways. Lewis also wrote "Till We Have Faces" which is an even more obvious allegory and metaphor for certain Christian doctrines dressed up in Graeco-Roman myths with polytheistic deities playing major roles in the story.
        $endgroup$
        – TimothyAWiseman
        10 hours ago





        $begingroup$
        This is a great answer, but I think you could go further with Lewis and Tolkien. Remember that The Chronicles of Narnia are a very thinly veiled allegory for Christian doctrine. Tolkien expressly avoided allegory or any type of moralizing, but his own Christianity still influenced his fiction in fairly clear ways. Lewis also wrote "Till We Have Faces" which is an even more obvious allegory and metaphor for certain Christian doctrines dressed up in Graeco-Roman myths with polytheistic deities playing major roles in the story.
        $endgroup$
        – TimothyAWiseman
        10 hours ago





        1




        1




        $begingroup$
        Unfortunately, I don't think I'm educated enough on C.S. Lewis's works to really go into the details. I included the Chronicles series because I know it's a thinly-veiled allegory and it seems to reconcile to two concepts well. It's more proof that it's possible to meet in the middle and it could give the player some perspective on how to do that. While I'm sure the specifics of some of his other works like The Screwtape Letters, which deals with demons and devils, might be able to support my answer, I feel like that may go down the religious rabbit hole a bit more than I want to
        $endgroup$
        – G. Moylan
        10 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        Unfortunately, I don't think I'm educated enough on C.S. Lewis's works to really go into the details. I included the Chronicles series because I know it's a thinly-veiled allegory and it seems to reconcile to two concepts well. It's more proof that it's possible to meet in the middle and it could give the player some perspective on how to do that. While I'm sure the specifics of some of his other works like The Screwtape Letters, which deals with demons and devils, might be able to support my answer, I feel like that may go down the religious rabbit hole a bit more than I want to
        $endgroup$
        – G. Moylan
        10 hours ago




        5




        5




        $begingroup$
        another challenging aspect i see is when another player does something that's outright evil in the game. are they going to think that person is ACTUALLY evil in real life? i think sitting down and talking with this person over what's going on is the best move forward.
        $endgroup$
        – DForck42
        9 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        another challenging aspect i see is when another player does something that's outright evil in the game. are they going to think that person is ACTUALLY evil in real life? i think sitting down and talking with this person over what's going on is the best move forward.
        $endgroup$
        – DForck42
        9 hours ago




        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        @G.Moylan This is a good explanation for why the player would be uncomfortable with D&D and similar systems, although I'd advise a more flexible ending. If keeping this player is a priority, there are plenty of RPGs that don't involve religious symbols and could be more accessible to this player.
        $endgroup$
        – MikeQ
        3 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @G.Moylan This is a good explanation for why the player would be uncomfortable with D&D and similar systems, although I'd advise a more flexible ending. If keeping this player is a priority, there are plenty of RPGs that don't involve religious symbols and could be more accessible to this player.
        $endgroup$
        – MikeQ
        3 hours ago




        1




        1




        $begingroup$
        @mikeq there are, although the OP specifically mentioned not wanting to change systems. He did also mention not cutting this player, but I suggest that only as a last resort
        $endgroup$
        – G. Moylan
        3 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @mikeq there are, although the OP specifically mentioned not wanting to change systems. He did also mention not cutting this player, but I suggest that only as a last resort
        $endgroup$
        – G. Moylan
        3 hours ago













        26












        $begingroup$

        One player should not be allowed to force his personal views on the other players. If he has a problem with Paladins, he's not going to react well to Clerics either.



        This player needs to realize that the game world is not the real world, and it does not need to conform to his ideas of how the real world works. There are other stories - Greek and Roman, alongside a broad number of non-D&D fantasy works - that feature pantheism.



        Unfortunately, if your player is vehemently opposed to the very concept of pantheism, you probably won't be able to convince him otherwise. Your best bet may be to remove him from the game. For the health of the game and the integrity of the teaching experience, it's best to do it before play has begun, rather than try to eject him later.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 13




          $begingroup$
          You mention problems with Clerics and Paladins. When they breach the subjects of summoning and interacting with dead/undead, demons, and devils, I imagine even more issues arising. This is potentially a huge can of worms and I think your evaluation here is correct that it's better to pre-empt the problem by removing it.
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          11 hours ago






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          To be a little bit more precise: "One person should not be allowed to force his personal views on other people"...
          $endgroup$
          – Jorge Córdoba
          11 hours ago






        • 7




          $begingroup$
          Is this answer, specifically your last paragraph, based in any kind of experience that you can use to support your answer?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          11 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Much as this answer strikes me as being a fair assessment of the situation, as Rubiksmoose suggests this is a kind of question where answers really need to be backed up with relevant experience in dealing with issues of this kind. (I think it's probably even fine if the relevant experience isn't even directly RPG-related and was a similar issue in some other context, but there needs to be experience and not just armchair speculation.)
          $endgroup$
          – Carcer
          10 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          @T.J.L. I see your point. In this "real" world, there are actually people who are pantheists. This fantasy game is no different. The player is more than welcome to impose their own handicap on their character to believe there is only one god in the game while others do ascribe to that viewpoint. His/her RP will like contain a bit of proselytizing, that can lead to "my guy syndrome" but it might be tolerable amongst your table.
          $endgroup$
          – Jammin4CO
          8 hours ago















        26












        $begingroup$

        One player should not be allowed to force his personal views on the other players. If he has a problem with Paladins, he's not going to react well to Clerics either.



        This player needs to realize that the game world is not the real world, and it does not need to conform to his ideas of how the real world works. There are other stories - Greek and Roman, alongside a broad number of non-D&D fantasy works - that feature pantheism.



        Unfortunately, if your player is vehemently opposed to the very concept of pantheism, you probably won't be able to convince him otherwise. Your best bet may be to remove him from the game. For the health of the game and the integrity of the teaching experience, it's best to do it before play has begun, rather than try to eject him later.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 13




          $begingroup$
          You mention problems with Clerics and Paladins. When they breach the subjects of summoning and interacting with dead/undead, demons, and devils, I imagine even more issues arising. This is potentially a huge can of worms and I think your evaluation here is correct that it's better to pre-empt the problem by removing it.
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          11 hours ago






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          To be a little bit more precise: "One person should not be allowed to force his personal views on other people"...
          $endgroup$
          – Jorge Córdoba
          11 hours ago






        • 7




          $begingroup$
          Is this answer, specifically your last paragraph, based in any kind of experience that you can use to support your answer?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          11 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Much as this answer strikes me as being a fair assessment of the situation, as Rubiksmoose suggests this is a kind of question where answers really need to be backed up with relevant experience in dealing with issues of this kind. (I think it's probably even fine if the relevant experience isn't even directly RPG-related and was a similar issue in some other context, but there needs to be experience and not just armchair speculation.)
          $endgroup$
          – Carcer
          10 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          @T.J.L. I see your point. In this "real" world, there are actually people who are pantheists. This fantasy game is no different. The player is more than welcome to impose their own handicap on their character to believe there is only one god in the game while others do ascribe to that viewpoint. His/her RP will like contain a bit of proselytizing, that can lead to "my guy syndrome" but it might be tolerable amongst your table.
          $endgroup$
          – Jammin4CO
          8 hours ago













        26












        26








        26





        $begingroup$

        One player should not be allowed to force his personal views on the other players. If he has a problem with Paladins, he's not going to react well to Clerics either.



        This player needs to realize that the game world is not the real world, and it does not need to conform to his ideas of how the real world works. There are other stories - Greek and Roman, alongside a broad number of non-D&D fantasy works - that feature pantheism.



        Unfortunately, if your player is vehemently opposed to the very concept of pantheism, you probably won't be able to convince him otherwise. Your best bet may be to remove him from the game. For the health of the game and the integrity of the teaching experience, it's best to do it before play has begun, rather than try to eject him later.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        One player should not be allowed to force his personal views on the other players. If he has a problem with Paladins, he's not going to react well to Clerics either.



        This player needs to realize that the game world is not the real world, and it does not need to conform to his ideas of how the real world works. There are other stories - Greek and Roman, alongside a broad number of non-D&D fantasy works - that feature pantheism.



        Unfortunately, if your player is vehemently opposed to the very concept of pantheism, you probably won't be able to convince him otherwise. Your best bet may be to remove him from the game. For the health of the game and the integrity of the teaching experience, it's best to do it before play has begun, rather than try to eject him later.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 11 hours ago









        T.J.L.T.J.L.

        34.5k5124180




        34.5k5124180







        • 13




          $begingroup$
          You mention problems with Clerics and Paladins. When they breach the subjects of summoning and interacting with dead/undead, demons, and devils, I imagine even more issues arising. This is potentially a huge can of worms and I think your evaluation here is correct that it's better to pre-empt the problem by removing it.
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          11 hours ago






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          To be a little bit more precise: "One person should not be allowed to force his personal views on other people"...
          $endgroup$
          – Jorge Córdoba
          11 hours ago






        • 7




          $begingroup$
          Is this answer, specifically your last paragraph, based in any kind of experience that you can use to support your answer?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          11 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Much as this answer strikes me as being a fair assessment of the situation, as Rubiksmoose suggests this is a kind of question where answers really need to be backed up with relevant experience in dealing with issues of this kind. (I think it's probably even fine if the relevant experience isn't even directly RPG-related and was a similar issue in some other context, but there needs to be experience and not just armchair speculation.)
          $endgroup$
          – Carcer
          10 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          @T.J.L. I see your point. In this "real" world, there are actually people who are pantheists. This fantasy game is no different. The player is more than welcome to impose their own handicap on their character to believe there is only one god in the game while others do ascribe to that viewpoint. His/her RP will like contain a bit of proselytizing, that can lead to "my guy syndrome" but it might be tolerable amongst your table.
          $endgroup$
          – Jammin4CO
          8 hours ago












        • 13




          $begingroup$
          You mention problems with Clerics and Paladins. When they breach the subjects of summoning and interacting with dead/undead, demons, and devils, I imagine even more issues arising. This is potentially a huge can of worms and I think your evaluation here is correct that it's better to pre-empt the problem by removing it.
          $endgroup$
          – G. Moylan
          11 hours ago






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          To be a little bit more precise: "One person should not be allowed to force his personal views on other people"...
          $endgroup$
          – Jorge Córdoba
          11 hours ago






        • 7




          $begingroup$
          Is this answer, specifically your last paragraph, based in any kind of experience that you can use to support your answer?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          11 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Much as this answer strikes me as being a fair assessment of the situation, as Rubiksmoose suggests this is a kind of question where answers really need to be backed up with relevant experience in dealing with issues of this kind. (I think it's probably even fine if the relevant experience isn't even directly RPG-related and was a similar issue in some other context, but there needs to be experience and not just armchair speculation.)
          $endgroup$
          – Carcer
          10 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          @T.J.L. I see your point. In this "real" world, there are actually people who are pantheists. This fantasy game is no different. The player is more than welcome to impose their own handicap on their character to believe there is only one god in the game while others do ascribe to that viewpoint. His/her RP will like contain a bit of proselytizing, that can lead to "my guy syndrome" but it might be tolerable amongst your table.
          $endgroup$
          – Jammin4CO
          8 hours ago







        13




        13




        $begingroup$
        You mention problems with Clerics and Paladins. When they breach the subjects of summoning and interacting with dead/undead, demons, and devils, I imagine even more issues arising. This is potentially a huge can of worms and I think your evaluation here is correct that it's better to pre-empt the problem by removing it.
        $endgroup$
        – G. Moylan
        11 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        You mention problems with Clerics and Paladins. When they breach the subjects of summoning and interacting with dead/undead, demons, and devils, I imagine even more issues arising. This is potentially a huge can of worms and I think your evaluation here is correct that it's better to pre-empt the problem by removing it.
        $endgroup$
        – G. Moylan
        11 hours ago




        3




        3




        $begingroup$
        To be a little bit more precise: "One person should not be allowed to force his personal views on other people"...
        $endgroup$
        – Jorge Córdoba
        11 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        To be a little bit more precise: "One person should not be allowed to force his personal views on other people"...
        $endgroup$
        – Jorge Córdoba
        11 hours ago




        7




        7




        $begingroup$
        Is this answer, specifically your last paragraph, based in any kind of experience that you can use to support your answer?
        $endgroup$
        – Rubiksmoose
        11 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        Is this answer, specifically your last paragraph, based in any kind of experience that you can use to support your answer?
        $endgroup$
        – Rubiksmoose
        11 hours ago




        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        Much as this answer strikes me as being a fair assessment of the situation, as Rubiksmoose suggests this is a kind of question where answers really need to be backed up with relevant experience in dealing with issues of this kind. (I think it's probably even fine if the relevant experience isn't even directly RPG-related and was a similar issue in some other context, but there needs to be experience and not just armchair speculation.)
        $endgroup$
        – Carcer
        10 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        Much as this answer strikes me as being a fair assessment of the situation, as Rubiksmoose suggests this is a kind of question where answers really need to be backed up with relevant experience in dealing with issues of this kind. (I think it's probably even fine if the relevant experience isn't even directly RPG-related and was a similar issue in some other context, but there needs to be experience and not just armchair speculation.)
        $endgroup$
        – Carcer
        10 hours ago












        $begingroup$
        @T.J.L. I see your point. In this "real" world, there are actually people who are pantheists. This fantasy game is no different. The player is more than welcome to impose their own handicap on their character to believe there is only one god in the game while others do ascribe to that viewpoint. His/her RP will like contain a bit of proselytizing, that can lead to "my guy syndrome" but it might be tolerable amongst your table.
        $endgroup$
        – Jammin4CO
        8 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @T.J.L. I see your point. In this "real" world, there are actually people who are pantheists. This fantasy game is no different. The player is more than welcome to impose their own handicap on their character to believe there is only one god in the game while others do ascribe to that viewpoint. His/her RP will like contain a bit of proselytizing, that can lead to "my guy syndrome" but it might be tolerable amongst your table.
        $endgroup$
        – Jammin4CO
        8 hours ago











        8












        $begingroup$


        I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this




        You have a couple of options:



        • Dungeon Master's Guide has a variant for a monotheistic setting (at least in 5th edition). You can use it, if it works for you.

        • Don't touch the religion topic at all. If your setting requires polytheism, don't call them "gods", call them "powerful entities". Yes, some people pray to them.

        • Distinguish player's beliefs and character's beliefs. It's a game, where you're supposed to kill people and loot their bodies. I don't think you do the same things in real life.

        Whatever approach you take, you need to make it clear to this player that they hold no veto over other players' choices. (thanks @frog)






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Do you have any experience using these techniques to solve a similar issue?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          11 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Also does the fact that a player refuses to accept one fictional premise not ring any kind of alarm bells for how comfortable this player might be in a fantasy setting in general? I have a strong suspicion that the player may not react positively to the idea of undead or magic or other worlds as well. Would you advise OP to change those aspects of the world as well to suit this player?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          10 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @enkryptor even if you haven't had this particular problem at the table, sharing your experience dealing with players who object to details in your worldbuilding, or with reskinning elements your players object to (as your second bullet advocates) would be excellent support. As is, though, this answer is drawing flags for being unsupported speculation.
          $endgroup$
          – nitsua60
          10 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @enkryptor It may be worth including this quote from the DMG (related to the monotheistic variant) in your answer "If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
          $endgroup$
          – illustro
          10 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @illustro You're right! I missed the line "" If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          9 hours ago















        8












        $begingroup$


        I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this




        You have a couple of options:



        • Dungeon Master's Guide has a variant for a monotheistic setting (at least in 5th edition). You can use it, if it works for you.

        • Don't touch the religion topic at all. If your setting requires polytheism, don't call them "gods", call them "powerful entities". Yes, some people pray to them.

        • Distinguish player's beliefs and character's beliefs. It's a game, where you're supposed to kill people and loot their bodies. I don't think you do the same things in real life.

        Whatever approach you take, you need to make it clear to this player that they hold no veto over other players' choices. (thanks @frog)






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Do you have any experience using these techniques to solve a similar issue?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          11 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Also does the fact that a player refuses to accept one fictional premise not ring any kind of alarm bells for how comfortable this player might be in a fantasy setting in general? I have a strong suspicion that the player may not react positively to the idea of undead or magic or other worlds as well. Would you advise OP to change those aspects of the world as well to suit this player?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          10 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @enkryptor even if you haven't had this particular problem at the table, sharing your experience dealing with players who object to details in your worldbuilding, or with reskinning elements your players object to (as your second bullet advocates) would be excellent support. As is, though, this answer is drawing flags for being unsupported speculation.
          $endgroup$
          – nitsua60
          10 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @enkryptor It may be worth including this quote from the DMG (related to the monotheistic variant) in your answer "If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
          $endgroup$
          – illustro
          10 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @illustro You're right! I missed the line "" If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          9 hours ago













        8












        8








        8





        $begingroup$


        I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this




        You have a couple of options:



        • Dungeon Master's Guide has a variant for a monotheistic setting (at least in 5th edition). You can use it, if it works for you.

        • Don't touch the religion topic at all. If your setting requires polytheism, don't call them "gods", call them "powerful entities". Yes, some people pray to them.

        • Distinguish player's beliefs and character's beliefs. It's a game, where you're supposed to kill people and loot their bodies. I don't think you do the same things in real life.

        Whatever approach you take, you need to make it clear to this player that they hold no veto over other players' choices. (thanks @frog)






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$




        I really don't know how to deal with this, because I would prefer not to limit the classes or my world creation because of this




        You have a couple of options:



        • Dungeon Master's Guide has a variant for a monotheistic setting (at least in 5th edition). You can use it, if it works for you.

        • Don't touch the religion topic at all. If your setting requires polytheism, don't call them "gods", call them "powerful entities". Yes, some people pray to them.

        • Distinguish player's beliefs and character's beliefs. It's a game, where you're supposed to kill people and loot their bodies. I don't think you do the same things in real life.

        Whatever approach you take, you need to make it clear to this player that they hold no veto over other players' choices. (thanks @frog)







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 11 hours ago









        enkryptorenkryptor

        26.7k14101211




        26.7k14101211







        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Do you have any experience using these techniques to solve a similar issue?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          11 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Also does the fact that a player refuses to accept one fictional premise not ring any kind of alarm bells for how comfortable this player might be in a fantasy setting in general? I have a strong suspicion that the player may not react positively to the idea of undead or magic or other worlds as well. Would you advise OP to change those aspects of the world as well to suit this player?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          10 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @enkryptor even if you haven't had this particular problem at the table, sharing your experience dealing with players who object to details in your worldbuilding, or with reskinning elements your players object to (as your second bullet advocates) would be excellent support. As is, though, this answer is drawing flags for being unsupported speculation.
          $endgroup$
          – nitsua60
          10 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @enkryptor It may be worth including this quote from the DMG (related to the monotheistic variant) in your answer "If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
          $endgroup$
          – illustro
          10 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @illustro You're right! I missed the line "" If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          9 hours ago












        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Do you have any experience using these techniques to solve a similar issue?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          11 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Also does the fact that a player refuses to accept one fictional premise not ring any kind of alarm bells for how comfortable this player might be in a fantasy setting in general? I have a strong suspicion that the player may not react positively to the idea of undead or magic or other worlds as well. Would you advise OP to change those aspects of the world as well to suit this player?
          $endgroup$
          – Rubiksmoose
          10 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @enkryptor even if you haven't had this particular problem at the table, sharing your experience dealing with players who object to details in your worldbuilding, or with reskinning elements your players object to (as your second bullet advocates) would be excellent support. As is, though, this answer is drawing flags for being unsupported speculation.
          $endgroup$
          – nitsua60
          10 hours ago






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          @enkryptor It may be worth including this quote from the DMG (related to the monotheistic variant) in your answer "If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
          $endgroup$
          – illustro
          10 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @illustro You're right! I missed the line "" If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          9 hours ago







        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        Do you have any experience using these techniques to solve a similar issue?
        $endgroup$
        – Rubiksmoose
        11 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        Do you have any experience using these techniques to solve a similar issue?
        $endgroup$
        – Rubiksmoose
        11 hours ago




        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        Also does the fact that a player refuses to accept one fictional premise not ring any kind of alarm bells for how comfortable this player might be in a fantasy setting in general? I have a strong suspicion that the player may not react positively to the idea of undead or magic or other worlds as well. Would you advise OP to change those aspects of the world as well to suit this player?
        $endgroup$
        – Rubiksmoose
        10 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        Also does the fact that a player refuses to accept one fictional premise not ring any kind of alarm bells for how comfortable this player might be in a fantasy setting in general? I have a strong suspicion that the player may not react positively to the idea of undead or magic or other worlds as well. Would you advise OP to change those aspects of the world as well to suit this player?
        $endgroup$
        – Rubiksmoose
        10 hours ago




        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        @enkryptor even if you haven't had this particular problem at the table, sharing your experience dealing with players who object to details in your worldbuilding, or with reskinning elements your players object to (as your second bullet advocates) would be excellent support. As is, though, this answer is drawing flags for being unsupported speculation.
        $endgroup$
        – nitsua60
        10 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @enkryptor even if you haven't had this particular problem at the table, sharing your experience dealing with players who object to details in your worldbuilding, or with reskinning elements your players object to (as your second bullet advocates) would be excellent support. As is, though, this answer is drawing flags for being unsupported speculation.
        $endgroup$
        – nitsua60
        10 hours ago




        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        @enkryptor It may be worth including this quote from the DMG (related to the monotheistic variant) in your answer "If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
        $endgroup$
        – illustro
        10 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @enkryptor It may be worth including this quote from the DMG (related to the monotheistic variant) in your answer "If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
        $endgroup$
        – illustro
        10 hours ago




        1




        1




        $begingroup$
        @illustro You're right! I missed the line "" If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        9 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @illustro You're right! I missed the line "" If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don’t, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren’t deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        9 hours ago











        8












        $begingroup$

        Have an open discussion with your player on the type of game D&D is and the setting you will be playing in.



        A single player shouldn't be dictating what classes everyone at the table can and can't play, and you will need to talk to your player about this. Here's my advice on how you might want to shape that discussion:




        • Do not criticize your player's religious beliefs. - Doing so will most likely cause them to become defensive, shut down, and close the door to further conversation. Don't approach this as a problem stemming from the player's religion (because it probably isn't), but one coming from the fact that they don't understand the game yet.


        • Try to find some common ground. - Point out the ways in which D&D, and particularly the setting that you are playing in, departs from your own beliefs (religious or otherwise). Explain to the player why playing the game doesn't bother you despite those things. Maybe you don't believe in ghosts, zombies, or magic, but they all exist in your setting anyway. Tell your player about how they add to the adventure without really challenging your beliefs; it's a fantasy game, after all.


        • Explain to your player that D&D takes place in a fantasy setting that is not a reflection of reality. Try giving your player a quick description of your setting, emphasizing the ways in which it departs from reality. Is your player ok with a world that contains Elf Wizards, Gnome Sorcerers, Owlbears, and Flail Snails, but not one that contains multiple gods? Try asking them why that might be the case. Is the one any more fantastical than the other? Pointing out some of the more ridiculous things in the game may help make the point with a bit of humor.


        • Make sure your player understands the difference between roleplaying and real belief. Remind your player that the beliefs of the character don't always align with the beliefs of the player. I've had atheist friends take on the roles of zealous Paladins of Bahamut. Did those players actually believe that there is a Platinum Dragon living on the sacred Mount Celestia? Of course not, but they enjoyed playing the game in that role. Making a comparison to actors on a stage or in a movie may help. An actor in the role of Shakespeare's Macbeth might well portray the role of a hero descending into a power-hungry tyrant, but this is not a reflection of the actor's character or beliefs.

        Hopefully after a conversation, your player will come to realize that just as the just as D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics, it doesn't necessarily adhere to spiritual laws either. That departure from reality can be a big part of the fun if everyone can get on board.



        If your player doesn't see your point of view after a discussion, or understands but simply decides that this doesn't sound like the game for them, that's ok too. Maybe they can create a different setting or find a different role-playing game that fits them better and they can DM a game for you.



        Hopefully this helps give you an idea of how to approach this conversation.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Have you tried these? How have they worked out?
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          This is entirely peripheral to your answer, but there's a very large difference between that tweet you linked to and "D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics", and by interpreting it that way you're reinforcing a common misconception. Since it is peripheral to your answer, I suggest you leave it out.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark Wells
          52 mins ago










        • $begingroup$
          Adding to this answer, the OP is not obligated to persuade this player or to provide an explanation that the player finds acceptable. That way lies madness and frustration.
          $endgroup$
          – EvilSnack
          43 mins ago
















        8












        $begingroup$

        Have an open discussion with your player on the type of game D&D is and the setting you will be playing in.



        A single player shouldn't be dictating what classes everyone at the table can and can't play, and you will need to talk to your player about this. Here's my advice on how you might want to shape that discussion:




        • Do not criticize your player's religious beliefs. - Doing so will most likely cause them to become defensive, shut down, and close the door to further conversation. Don't approach this as a problem stemming from the player's religion (because it probably isn't), but one coming from the fact that they don't understand the game yet.


        • Try to find some common ground. - Point out the ways in which D&D, and particularly the setting that you are playing in, departs from your own beliefs (religious or otherwise). Explain to the player why playing the game doesn't bother you despite those things. Maybe you don't believe in ghosts, zombies, or magic, but they all exist in your setting anyway. Tell your player about how they add to the adventure without really challenging your beliefs; it's a fantasy game, after all.


        • Explain to your player that D&D takes place in a fantasy setting that is not a reflection of reality. Try giving your player a quick description of your setting, emphasizing the ways in which it departs from reality. Is your player ok with a world that contains Elf Wizards, Gnome Sorcerers, Owlbears, and Flail Snails, but not one that contains multiple gods? Try asking them why that might be the case. Is the one any more fantastical than the other? Pointing out some of the more ridiculous things in the game may help make the point with a bit of humor.


        • Make sure your player understands the difference between roleplaying and real belief. Remind your player that the beliefs of the character don't always align with the beliefs of the player. I've had atheist friends take on the roles of zealous Paladins of Bahamut. Did those players actually believe that there is a Platinum Dragon living on the sacred Mount Celestia? Of course not, but they enjoyed playing the game in that role. Making a comparison to actors on a stage or in a movie may help. An actor in the role of Shakespeare's Macbeth might well portray the role of a hero descending into a power-hungry tyrant, but this is not a reflection of the actor's character or beliefs.

        Hopefully after a conversation, your player will come to realize that just as the just as D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics, it doesn't necessarily adhere to spiritual laws either. That departure from reality can be a big part of the fun if everyone can get on board.



        If your player doesn't see your point of view after a discussion, or understands but simply decides that this doesn't sound like the game for them, that's ok too. Maybe they can create a different setting or find a different role-playing game that fits them better and they can DM a game for you.



        Hopefully this helps give you an idea of how to approach this conversation.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Have you tried these? How have they worked out?
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          This is entirely peripheral to your answer, but there's a very large difference between that tweet you linked to and "D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics", and by interpreting it that way you're reinforcing a common misconception. Since it is peripheral to your answer, I suggest you leave it out.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark Wells
          52 mins ago










        • $begingroup$
          Adding to this answer, the OP is not obligated to persuade this player or to provide an explanation that the player finds acceptable. That way lies madness and frustration.
          $endgroup$
          – EvilSnack
          43 mins ago














        8












        8








        8





        $begingroup$

        Have an open discussion with your player on the type of game D&D is and the setting you will be playing in.



        A single player shouldn't be dictating what classes everyone at the table can and can't play, and you will need to talk to your player about this. Here's my advice on how you might want to shape that discussion:




        • Do not criticize your player's religious beliefs. - Doing so will most likely cause them to become defensive, shut down, and close the door to further conversation. Don't approach this as a problem stemming from the player's religion (because it probably isn't), but one coming from the fact that they don't understand the game yet.


        • Try to find some common ground. - Point out the ways in which D&D, and particularly the setting that you are playing in, departs from your own beliefs (religious or otherwise). Explain to the player why playing the game doesn't bother you despite those things. Maybe you don't believe in ghosts, zombies, or magic, but they all exist in your setting anyway. Tell your player about how they add to the adventure without really challenging your beliefs; it's a fantasy game, after all.


        • Explain to your player that D&D takes place in a fantasy setting that is not a reflection of reality. Try giving your player a quick description of your setting, emphasizing the ways in which it departs from reality. Is your player ok with a world that contains Elf Wizards, Gnome Sorcerers, Owlbears, and Flail Snails, but not one that contains multiple gods? Try asking them why that might be the case. Is the one any more fantastical than the other? Pointing out some of the more ridiculous things in the game may help make the point with a bit of humor.


        • Make sure your player understands the difference between roleplaying and real belief. Remind your player that the beliefs of the character don't always align with the beliefs of the player. I've had atheist friends take on the roles of zealous Paladins of Bahamut. Did those players actually believe that there is a Platinum Dragon living on the sacred Mount Celestia? Of course not, but they enjoyed playing the game in that role. Making a comparison to actors on a stage or in a movie may help. An actor in the role of Shakespeare's Macbeth might well portray the role of a hero descending into a power-hungry tyrant, but this is not a reflection of the actor's character or beliefs.

        Hopefully after a conversation, your player will come to realize that just as the just as D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics, it doesn't necessarily adhere to spiritual laws either. That departure from reality can be a big part of the fun if everyone can get on board.



        If your player doesn't see your point of view after a discussion, or understands but simply decides that this doesn't sound like the game for them, that's ok too. Maybe they can create a different setting or find a different role-playing game that fits them better and they can DM a game for you.



        Hopefully this helps give you an idea of how to approach this conversation.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Have an open discussion with your player on the type of game D&D is and the setting you will be playing in.



        A single player shouldn't be dictating what classes everyone at the table can and can't play, and you will need to talk to your player about this. Here's my advice on how you might want to shape that discussion:




        • Do not criticize your player's religious beliefs. - Doing so will most likely cause them to become defensive, shut down, and close the door to further conversation. Don't approach this as a problem stemming from the player's religion (because it probably isn't), but one coming from the fact that they don't understand the game yet.


        • Try to find some common ground. - Point out the ways in which D&D, and particularly the setting that you are playing in, departs from your own beliefs (religious or otherwise). Explain to the player why playing the game doesn't bother you despite those things. Maybe you don't believe in ghosts, zombies, or magic, but they all exist in your setting anyway. Tell your player about how they add to the adventure without really challenging your beliefs; it's a fantasy game, after all.


        • Explain to your player that D&D takes place in a fantasy setting that is not a reflection of reality. Try giving your player a quick description of your setting, emphasizing the ways in which it departs from reality. Is your player ok with a world that contains Elf Wizards, Gnome Sorcerers, Owlbears, and Flail Snails, but not one that contains multiple gods? Try asking them why that might be the case. Is the one any more fantastical than the other? Pointing out some of the more ridiculous things in the game may help make the point with a bit of humor.


        • Make sure your player understands the difference between roleplaying and real belief. Remind your player that the beliefs of the character don't always align with the beliefs of the player. I've had atheist friends take on the roles of zealous Paladins of Bahamut. Did those players actually believe that there is a Platinum Dragon living on the sacred Mount Celestia? Of course not, but they enjoyed playing the game in that role. Making a comparison to actors on a stage or in a movie may help. An actor in the role of Shakespeare's Macbeth might well portray the role of a hero descending into a power-hungry tyrant, but this is not a reflection of the actor's character or beliefs.

        Hopefully after a conversation, your player will come to realize that just as the just as D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics, it doesn't necessarily adhere to spiritual laws either. That departure from reality can be a big part of the fun if everyone can get on board.



        If your player doesn't see your point of view after a discussion, or understands but simply decides that this doesn't sound like the game for them, that's ok too. Maybe they can create a different setting or find a different role-playing game that fits them better and they can DM a game for you.



        Hopefully this helps give you an idea of how to approach this conversation.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 8 hours ago









        user48255user48255

        6,7971340




        6,7971340







        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Have you tried these? How have they worked out?
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          This is entirely peripheral to your answer, but there's a very large difference between that tweet you linked to and "D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics", and by interpreting it that way you're reinforcing a common misconception. Since it is peripheral to your answer, I suggest you leave it out.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark Wells
          52 mins ago










        • $begingroup$
          Adding to this answer, the OP is not obligated to persuade this player or to provide an explanation that the player finds acceptable. That way lies madness and frustration.
          $endgroup$
          – EvilSnack
          43 mins ago













        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Have you tried these? How have they worked out?
          $endgroup$
          – NautArch
          8 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          This is entirely peripheral to your answer, but there's a very large difference between that tweet you linked to and "D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics", and by interpreting it that way you're reinforcing a common misconception. Since it is peripheral to your answer, I suggest you leave it out.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark Wells
          52 mins ago










        • $begingroup$
          Adding to this answer, the OP is not obligated to persuade this player or to provide an explanation that the player finds acceptable. That way lies madness and frustration.
          $endgroup$
          – EvilSnack
          43 mins ago








        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        Have you tried these? How have they worked out?
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        8 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        Have you tried these? How have they worked out?
        $endgroup$
        – NautArch
        8 hours ago












        $begingroup$
        This is entirely peripheral to your answer, but there's a very large difference between that tweet you linked to and "D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics", and by interpreting it that way you're reinforcing a common misconception. Since it is peripheral to your answer, I suggest you leave it out.
        $endgroup$
        – Mark Wells
        52 mins ago




        $begingroup$
        This is entirely peripheral to your answer, but there's a very large difference between that tweet you linked to and "D&D doesn't adhere to the laws of physics", and by interpreting it that way you're reinforcing a common misconception. Since it is peripheral to your answer, I suggest you leave it out.
        $endgroup$
        – Mark Wells
        52 mins ago












        $begingroup$
        Adding to this answer, the OP is not obligated to persuade this player or to provide an explanation that the player finds acceptable. That way lies madness and frustration.
        $endgroup$
        – EvilSnack
        43 mins ago





        $begingroup$
        Adding to this answer, the OP is not obligated to persuade this player or to provide an explanation that the player finds acceptable. That way lies madness and frustration.
        $endgroup$
        – EvilSnack
        43 mins ago












        4












        $begingroup$

        Problem: the player doesn't understand player and DM roles



        This may not be solvable. And it may be. Don't play until this is settled.




        I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are
        different gods, to which the player responded, "No."




        Your first answer to this is "Yes, it is, and if you don't accept that, then you are unable to play in this game." There are two reasons for this position as the way forward if you want them included in a D&D 5e game. (But I am not sure that this is about the game in the first place ... we'll save that for later).



        1. This particular game is structurally built to be an exploration of a subset of the lands of make believe, with magic and strange things that are not in this world.



        2. The DM is in charge of the world and that cosmos (to include such deites as the cosmos has) and - this is the key point - the DM's rule on that is the last word. See the DMG sections on "Master of Worlds" and "Master of Rules" in the opening chapter for more detail (pages 3-5). You need to brush up on your understanding of this system for your own benefit.



          There are a wide variety of role playing games where the world building itself, from the ground up, is a collaborative exercise. D&D 5e isn't one of them as laid out in the DMG at the structural level of world building.



        There are a variety of ways that players in D&D 5e contribute to world building.



        Each table will have a variation on how much the players flesh the world out.




        • I've seen it go from nothing, to the point in my brother's campaign
          where I recommended we add a deity, outlined its portfolio, and my
          brother, the DM, approved it.



          And we've seen all points in between.




        • In my first 5e campaign, I didn't find a deity that I liked in
          Faerun, so I worked with the DM and asked about some options. We
          settled on Thor. Notice that I didn't say "NO, ONLY THOR!" I worked
          with the DM to come up with a deal that we both liked. (With your player,
          see below).



          Telling you who the deities are or are not is beyond the player's level of contribution unless you (per my examples above) are amenable to a change in the deity line up, and for that matter, your other players are as well as interested parties.



          1. If you are playing in the baseline "Forgotten Realms" setting, the
            deities are listed in the PHB in Appendix B. So too are a variety
            of other pantheons such as Dragonlance, Eberron, Greyhawk, as well as Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, Norse, etc).


          2. If you are playing in your own world, whatever that world works like
            is how it works, deities or no. See the DMG for detailed treatment of that.



        Sit down with this player and show them that you are the Master of Worlds per the DMG. It's in writing. The DMG is your support in this case, but this player apparently needs more than your say so. (See below for how this may be a symptom of a bigger problem).



        If they still do not accept this premise, then D&D 5e isn't the game you ought to be using if you want this player to be included. They are toxic and will be a problem for your whole group.



        It may be best to pick another game



        For raw world building you can try Microscope. Some of the veteran players here have used Microscope as a prelude game to get an idea on what the world will look like before they embark on an adventure game in "another world" or in another time and place . There are numerous other games where the GM role isn't spelled out as having so much say in what the cosmos looks like. Those may be a better fit for your group if you really want to have this player included.



        For a game with no gods (or very few), try Traveller. (Been years since I've played; there is some helpful advice here).



        Lastly, you are being pushed: this has begun as a test of wills



        Your player obviously has strong feelings, and may have a very strong personality. It may be that, when it comes to a test of wills IRL, they may be less willing to compromise than you are. If that is the relationship between you two, you've got an interpersonal issue to deal with that may not fit with playing RPGs together.



        A rule learned by hard experience over the years: bad gaming is not better than no gaming.



        If this kind of pushy behavior is to be expected session after session, there is no point in embarking on the game with this player included. I've seen games broken up, and in a couple of cases, friendships ruined, all thanks to disputes over a game. Yeah, it's an awful experience. An RPG isn't worth ruining a friendship over. (In my opinion and from bitter experience.)



        "I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems"



        It's your life: unless you get some movement on this player's part, you are setting yourself up for a hard time. If you want a train wreck, you can ignore what experience has taught me. Find out how the other players feel about this: actively solicit their input. Spend the time and effort to build a consensus. You need the buy in of all players, or you'll be wasting your efforts as a DM.



        We play these games to have fun, not to get into an argument each time play starts.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$

















          4












          $begingroup$

          Problem: the player doesn't understand player and DM roles



          This may not be solvable. And it may be. Don't play until this is settled.




          I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are
          different gods, to which the player responded, "No."




          Your first answer to this is "Yes, it is, and if you don't accept that, then you are unable to play in this game." There are two reasons for this position as the way forward if you want them included in a D&D 5e game. (But I am not sure that this is about the game in the first place ... we'll save that for later).



          1. This particular game is structurally built to be an exploration of a subset of the lands of make believe, with magic and strange things that are not in this world.



          2. The DM is in charge of the world and that cosmos (to include such deites as the cosmos has) and - this is the key point - the DM's rule on that is the last word. See the DMG sections on "Master of Worlds" and "Master of Rules" in the opening chapter for more detail (pages 3-5). You need to brush up on your understanding of this system for your own benefit.



            There are a wide variety of role playing games where the world building itself, from the ground up, is a collaborative exercise. D&D 5e isn't one of them as laid out in the DMG at the structural level of world building.



          There are a variety of ways that players in D&D 5e contribute to world building.



          Each table will have a variation on how much the players flesh the world out.




          • I've seen it go from nothing, to the point in my brother's campaign
            where I recommended we add a deity, outlined its portfolio, and my
            brother, the DM, approved it.



            And we've seen all points in between.




          • In my first 5e campaign, I didn't find a deity that I liked in
            Faerun, so I worked with the DM and asked about some options. We
            settled on Thor. Notice that I didn't say "NO, ONLY THOR!" I worked
            with the DM to come up with a deal that we both liked. (With your player,
            see below).



            Telling you who the deities are or are not is beyond the player's level of contribution unless you (per my examples above) are amenable to a change in the deity line up, and for that matter, your other players are as well as interested parties.



            1. If you are playing in the baseline "Forgotten Realms" setting, the
              deities are listed in the PHB in Appendix B. So too are a variety
              of other pantheons such as Dragonlance, Eberron, Greyhawk, as well as Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, Norse, etc).


            2. If you are playing in your own world, whatever that world works like
              is how it works, deities or no. See the DMG for detailed treatment of that.



          Sit down with this player and show them that you are the Master of Worlds per the DMG. It's in writing. The DMG is your support in this case, but this player apparently needs more than your say so. (See below for how this may be a symptom of a bigger problem).



          If they still do not accept this premise, then D&D 5e isn't the game you ought to be using if you want this player to be included. They are toxic and will be a problem for your whole group.



          It may be best to pick another game



          For raw world building you can try Microscope. Some of the veteran players here have used Microscope as a prelude game to get an idea on what the world will look like before they embark on an adventure game in "another world" or in another time and place . There are numerous other games where the GM role isn't spelled out as having so much say in what the cosmos looks like. Those may be a better fit for your group if you really want to have this player included.



          For a game with no gods (or very few), try Traveller. (Been years since I've played; there is some helpful advice here).



          Lastly, you are being pushed: this has begun as a test of wills



          Your player obviously has strong feelings, and may have a very strong personality. It may be that, when it comes to a test of wills IRL, they may be less willing to compromise than you are. If that is the relationship between you two, you've got an interpersonal issue to deal with that may not fit with playing RPGs together.



          A rule learned by hard experience over the years: bad gaming is not better than no gaming.



          If this kind of pushy behavior is to be expected session after session, there is no point in embarking on the game with this player included. I've seen games broken up, and in a couple of cases, friendships ruined, all thanks to disputes over a game. Yeah, it's an awful experience. An RPG isn't worth ruining a friendship over. (In my opinion and from bitter experience.)



          "I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems"



          It's your life: unless you get some movement on this player's part, you are setting yourself up for a hard time. If you want a train wreck, you can ignore what experience has taught me. Find out how the other players feel about this: actively solicit their input. Spend the time and effort to build a consensus. You need the buy in of all players, or you'll be wasting your efforts as a DM.



          We play these games to have fun, not to get into an argument each time play starts.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$















            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            Problem: the player doesn't understand player and DM roles



            This may not be solvable. And it may be. Don't play until this is settled.




            I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are
            different gods, to which the player responded, "No."




            Your first answer to this is "Yes, it is, and if you don't accept that, then you are unable to play in this game." There are two reasons for this position as the way forward if you want them included in a D&D 5e game. (But I am not sure that this is about the game in the first place ... we'll save that for later).



            1. This particular game is structurally built to be an exploration of a subset of the lands of make believe, with magic and strange things that are not in this world.



            2. The DM is in charge of the world and that cosmos (to include such deites as the cosmos has) and - this is the key point - the DM's rule on that is the last word. See the DMG sections on "Master of Worlds" and "Master of Rules" in the opening chapter for more detail (pages 3-5). You need to brush up on your understanding of this system for your own benefit.



              There are a wide variety of role playing games where the world building itself, from the ground up, is a collaborative exercise. D&D 5e isn't one of them as laid out in the DMG at the structural level of world building.



            There are a variety of ways that players in D&D 5e contribute to world building.



            Each table will have a variation on how much the players flesh the world out.




            • I've seen it go from nothing, to the point in my brother's campaign
              where I recommended we add a deity, outlined its portfolio, and my
              brother, the DM, approved it.



              And we've seen all points in between.




            • In my first 5e campaign, I didn't find a deity that I liked in
              Faerun, so I worked with the DM and asked about some options. We
              settled on Thor. Notice that I didn't say "NO, ONLY THOR!" I worked
              with the DM to come up with a deal that we both liked. (With your player,
              see below).



              Telling you who the deities are or are not is beyond the player's level of contribution unless you (per my examples above) are amenable to a change in the deity line up, and for that matter, your other players are as well as interested parties.



              1. If you are playing in the baseline "Forgotten Realms" setting, the
                deities are listed in the PHB in Appendix B. So too are a variety
                of other pantheons such as Dragonlance, Eberron, Greyhawk, as well as Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, Norse, etc).


              2. If you are playing in your own world, whatever that world works like
                is how it works, deities or no. See the DMG for detailed treatment of that.



            Sit down with this player and show them that you are the Master of Worlds per the DMG. It's in writing. The DMG is your support in this case, but this player apparently needs more than your say so. (See below for how this may be a symptom of a bigger problem).



            If they still do not accept this premise, then D&D 5e isn't the game you ought to be using if you want this player to be included. They are toxic and will be a problem for your whole group.



            It may be best to pick another game



            For raw world building you can try Microscope. Some of the veteran players here have used Microscope as a prelude game to get an idea on what the world will look like before they embark on an adventure game in "another world" or in another time and place . There are numerous other games where the GM role isn't spelled out as having so much say in what the cosmos looks like. Those may be a better fit for your group if you really want to have this player included.



            For a game with no gods (or very few), try Traveller. (Been years since I've played; there is some helpful advice here).



            Lastly, you are being pushed: this has begun as a test of wills



            Your player obviously has strong feelings, and may have a very strong personality. It may be that, when it comes to a test of wills IRL, they may be less willing to compromise than you are. If that is the relationship between you two, you've got an interpersonal issue to deal with that may not fit with playing RPGs together.



            A rule learned by hard experience over the years: bad gaming is not better than no gaming.



            If this kind of pushy behavior is to be expected session after session, there is no point in embarking on the game with this player included. I've seen games broken up, and in a couple of cases, friendships ruined, all thanks to disputes over a game. Yeah, it's an awful experience. An RPG isn't worth ruining a friendship over. (In my opinion and from bitter experience.)



            "I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems"



            It's your life: unless you get some movement on this player's part, you are setting yourself up for a hard time. If you want a train wreck, you can ignore what experience has taught me. Find out how the other players feel about this: actively solicit their input. Spend the time and effort to build a consensus. You need the buy in of all players, or you'll be wasting your efforts as a DM.



            We play these games to have fun, not to get into an argument each time play starts.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Problem: the player doesn't understand player and DM roles



            This may not be solvable. And it may be. Don't play until this is settled.




            I tried to explain that it's a fictional universe in which there are
            different gods, to which the player responded, "No."




            Your first answer to this is "Yes, it is, and if you don't accept that, then you are unable to play in this game." There are two reasons for this position as the way forward if you want them included in a D&D 5e game. (But I am not sure that this is about the game in the first place ... we'll save that for later).



            1. This particular game is structurally built to be an exploration of a subset of the lands of make believe, with magic and strange things that are not in this world.



            2. The DM is in charge of the world and that cosmos (to include such deites as the cosmos has) and - this is the key point - the DM's rule on that is the last word. See the DMG sections on "Master of Worlds" and "Master of Rules" in the opening chapter for more detail (pages 3-5). You need to brush up on your understanding of this system for your own benefit.



              There are a wide variety of role playing games where the world building itself, from the ground up, is a collaborative exercise. D&D 5e isn't one of them as laid out in the DMG at the structural level of world building.



            There are a variety of ways that players in D&D 5e contribute to world building.



            Each table will have a variation on how much the players flesh the world out.




            • I've seen it go from nothing, to the point in my brother's campaign
              where I recommended we add a deity, outlined its portfolio, and my
              brother, the DM, approved it.



              And we've seen all points in between.




            • In my first 5e campaign, I didn't find a deity that I liked in
              Faerun, so I worked with the DM and asked about some options. We
              settled on Thor. Notice that I didn't say "NO, ONLY THOR!" I worked
              with the DM to come up with a deal that we both liked. (With your player,
              see below).



              Telling you who the deities are or are not is beyond the player's level of contribution unless you (per my examples above) are amenable to a change in the deity line up, and for that matter, your other players are as well as interested parties.



              1. If you are playing in the baseline "Forgotten Realms" setting, the
                deities are listed in the PHB in Appendix B. So too are a variety
                of other pantheons such as Dragonlance, Eberron, Greyhawk, as well as Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, Norse, etc).


              2. If you are playing in your own world, whatever that world works like
                is how it works, deities or no. See the DMG for detailed treatment of that.



            Sit down with this player and show them that you are the Master of Worlds per the DMG. It's in writing. The DMG is your support in this case, but this player apparently needs more than your say so. (See below for how this may be a symptom of a bigger problem).



            If they still do not accept this premise, then D&D 5e isn't the game you ought to be using if you want this player to be included. They are toxic and will be a problem for your whole group.



            It may be best to pick another game



            For raw world building you can try Microscope. Some of the veteran players here have used Microscope as a prelude game to get an idea on what the world will look like before they embark on an adventure game in "another world" or in another time and place . There are numerous other games where the GM role isn't spelled out as having so much say in what the cosmos looks like. Those may be a better fit for your group if you really want to have this player included.



            For a game with no gods (or very few), try Traveller. (Been years since I've played; there is some helpful advice here).



            Lastly, you are being pushed: this has begun as a test of wills



            Your player obviously has strong feelings, and may have a very strong personality. It may be that, when it comes to a test of wills IRL, they may be less willing to compromise than you are. If that is the relationship between you two, you've got an interpersonal issue to deal with that may not fit with playing RPGs together.



            A rule learned by hard experience over the years: bad gaming is not better than no gaming.



            If this kind of pushy behavior is to be expected session after session, there is no point in embarking on the game with this player included. I've seen games broken up, and in a couple of cases, friendships ruined, all thanks to disputes over a game. Yeah, it's an awful experience. An RPG isn't worth ruining a friendship over. (In my opinion and from bitter experience.)



            "I'm already invested in 5e and playing that, so I also don't want recommendations for other systems"



            It's your life: unless you get some movement on this player's part, you are setting yourself up for a hard time. If you want a train wreck, you can ignore what experience has taught me. Find out how the other players feel about this: actively solicit their input. Spend the time and effort to build a consensus. You need the buy in of all players, or you'll be wasting your efforts as a DM.



            We play these games to have fun, not to get into an argument each time play starts.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 1 hour ago









            V2Blast

            29.8k5108181




            29.8k5108181










            answered 7 hours ago









            KorvinStarmastKorvinStarmast

            86.7k22279465




            86.7k22279465





















                2












                $begingroup$

                To try and add something that I don't believe I saw in the other answers: Allow this player to play a character who believes only in their deity, and in their probably lawful alignment. Magic from various sources is going to have to be explained away somehow.



                • Does this player have an issue with magic of any kind being a slight against their religion?


                • How does this player react to other religions and pantheons in real life?


                • What about in books/movies/series?


                • Would this player get along well with other players whose meta- or in-character beliefs clash?


                • How does this player handle losing in general? It may seem unrelated, but if even the concept of flexibility for game setting is so difficult, it could translate into other aspects of RP Gaming. They may not have an easy time accepting contradictions to what they want their character to do and what happens.


                As long as you can find a gray zone where the character's willful ignorance (because as the DM you know for a fact what exists in your world) can appease the player's sensibilities. Even if they call it demons (which other than warlocks is questionable), it allows them to exist in a world with other beings.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$

















                  2












                  $begingroup$

                  To try and add something that I don't believe I saw in the other answers: Allow this player to play a character who believes only in their deity, and in their probably lawful alignment. Magic from various sources is going to have to be explained away somehow.



                  • Does this player have an issue with magic of any kind being a slight against their religion?


                  • How does this player react to other religions and pantheons in real life?


                  • What about in books/movies/series?


                  • Would this player get along well with other players whose meta- or in-character beliefs clash?


                  • How does this player handle losing in general? It may seem unrelated, but if even the concept of flexibility for game setting is so difficult, it could translate into other aspects of RP Gaming. They may not have an easy time accepting contradictions to what they want their character to do and what happens.


                  As long as you can find a gray zone where the character's willful ignorance (because as the DM you know for a fact what exists in your world) can appease the player's sensibilities. Even if they call it demons (which other than warlocks is questionable), it allows them to exist in a world with other beings.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$















                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    To try and add something that I don't believe I saw in the other answers: Allow this player to play a character who believes only in their deity, and in their probably lawful alignment. Magic from various sources is going to have to be explained away somehow.



                    • Does this player have an issue with magic of any kind being a slight against their religion?


                    • How does this player react to other religions and pantheons in real life?


                    • What about in books/movies/series?


                    • Would this player get along well with other players whose meta- or in-character beliefs clash?


                    • How does this player handle losing in general? It may seem unrelated, but if even the concept of flexibility for game setting is so difficult, it could translate into other aspects of RP Gaming. They may not have an easy time accepting contradictions to what they want their character to do and what happens.


                    As long as you can find a gray zone where the character's willful ignorance (because as the DM you know for a fact what exists in your world) can appease the player's sensibilities. Even if they call it demons (which other than warlocks is questionable), it allows them to exist in a world with other beings.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    To try and add something that I don't believe I saw in the other answers: Allow this player to play a character who believes only in their deity, and in their probably lawful alignment. Magic from various sources is going to have to be explained away somehow.



                    • Does this player have an issue with magic of any kind being a slight against their religion?


                    • How does this player react to other religions and pantheons in real life?


                    • What about in books/movies/series?


                    • Would this player get along well with other players whose meta- or in-character beliefs clash?


                    • How does this player handle losing in general? It may seem unrelated, but if even the concept of flexibility for game setting is so difficult, it could translate into other aspects of RP Gaming. They may not have an easy time accepting contradictions to what they want their character to do and what happens.


                    As long as you can find a gray zone where the character's willful ignorance (because as the DM you know for a fact what exists in your world) can appease the player's sensibilities. Even if they call it demons (which other than warlocks is questionable), it allows them to exist in a world with other beings.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 1 hour ago









                    V2Blast

                    29.8k5108181




                    29.8k5108181










                    answered 1 hour ago









                    CatLordCatLord

                    17.2k12674




                    17.2k12674





















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        You'll Need to have a Very Frank Chat with your Friend



                        There are plenty of ways you could compromise so that HIS character can worship the "one true God"- he can even try to persuade his fellow players to convert (in character, of course). What he CANNOT do is dictate what content you can put in the world, or what choices other players make for their characters. Doing so not only undermines the other players' enjoyment of the game, it makes it so you cannot do your job as DM effectively. If your friend cannot agree to that, it's perfectly OK to politely suggest that D&D might not be a good fit for him.



                        Compromise is still Important



                        Having said that, tailoring your campaign to suit your players is something all good DMs should do. You need to know your players and create an environment where they can all enjoy themselves, and just as you'd avoid creating a role-playing scenario around a real-life trauma you know a friend has suffered, you should be aware if your campaign is going to make one or more of your players really uncomfortable, and try to find a way around it



                        A Possible Compromise You Might Consider



                        Perhaps your friend's character practices a faith that believes that the "gods" of different pantheons are all actually aspects of the "one true god". In a last ditch effort to save all of creation, the "one true god" sacrificed itself millennia ago- but since it couldn't be destroyed, it was instead shattered into fragments people now draw power from. His character is trying to live a life devoted to that one true god, in a world that has forgotten the origins of the "gods" they follow and fight over.



                        For your friend, this could be compared to role-playing what life may have been like for early Christians in the Roman era, when the majority of the population had a different set of beliefs, and his faith was potentially dangerous. Most importantly, he'll be role-playing living in a world where no one feels it is necessary to concede to his world view.



                        Be Prepared, Though



                        Still, I have to agree with G. Moylan's answer that the objections of the player in question are unlikely to stop at polytheism- you're going to have push-back the first time you introduce the undead, or magic, or any number of other things. 5e is moving in a very socially progressive direction these days, so you'll probably need to decide early on whether you want to embrace same-sex marriages, gender-changing elves and the like.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$








                        • 2




                          $begingroup$
                          Have you had this talk? Did you try the compromise? How was it received?
                          $endgroup$
                          – NautArch
                          7 hours ago















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        You'll Need to have a Very Frank Chat with your Friend



                        There are plenty of ways you could compromise so that HIS character can worship the "one true God"- he can even try to persuade his fellow players to convert (in character, of course). What he CANNOT do is dictate what content you can put in the world, or what choices other players make for their characters. Doing so not only undermines the other players' enjoyment of the game, it makes it so you cannot do your job as DM effectively. If your friend cannot agree to that, it's perfectly OK to politely suggest that D&D might not be a good fit for him.



                        Compromise is still Important



                        Having said that, tailoring your campaign to suit your players is something all good DMs should do. You need to know your players and create an environment where they can all enjoy themselves, and just as you'd avoid creating a role-playing scenario around a real-life trauma you know a friend has suffered, you should be aware if your campaign is going to make one or more of your players really uncomfortable, and try to find a way around it



                        A Possible Compromise You Might Consider



                        Perhaps your friend's character practices a faith that believes that the "gods" of different pantheons are all actually aspects of the "one true god". In a last ditch effort to save all of creation, the "one true god" sacrificed itself millennia ago- but since it couldn't be destroyed, it was instead shattered into fragments people now draw power from. His character is trying to live a life devoted to that one true god, in a world that has forgotten the origins of the "gods" they follow and fight over.



                        For your friend, this could be compared to role-playing what life may have been like for early Christians in the Roman era, when the majority of the population had a different set of beliefs, and his faith was potentially dangerous. Most importantly, he'll be role-playing living in a world where no one feels it is necessary to concede to his world view.



                        Be Prepared, Though



                        Still, I have to agree with G. Moylan's answer that the objections of the player in question are unlikely to stop at polytheism- you're going to have push-back the first time you introduce the undead, or magic, or any number of other things. 5e is moving in a very socially progressive direction these days, so you'll probably need to decide early on whether you want to embrace same-sex marriages, gender-changing elves and the like.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$








                        • 2




                          $begingroup$
                          Have you had this talk? Did you try the compromise? How was it received?
                          $endgroup$
                          – NautArch
                          7 hours ago













                        1












                        1








                        1





                        $begingroup$

                        You'll Need to have a Very Frank Chat with your Friend



                        There are plenty of ways you could compromise so that HIS character can worship the "one true God"- he can even try to persuade his fellow players to convert (in character, of course). What he CANNOT do is dictate what content you can put in the world, or what choices other players make for their characters. Doing so not only undermines the other players' enjoyment of the game, it makes it so you cannot do your job as DM effectively. If your friend cannot agree to that, it's perfectly OK to politely suggest that D&D might not be a good fit for him.



                        Compromise is still Important



                        Having said that, tailoring your campaign to suit your players is something all good DMs should do. You need to know your players and create an environment where they can all enjoy themselves, and just as you'd avoid creating a role-playing scenario around a real-life trauma you know a friend has suffered, you should be aware if your campaign is going to make one or more of your players really uncomfortable, and try to find a way around it



                        A Possible Compromise You Might Consider



                        Perhaps your friend's character practices a faith that believes that the "gods" of different pantheons are all actually aspects of the "one true god". In a last ditch effort to save all of creation, the "one true god" sacrificed itself millennia ago- but since it couldn't be destroyed, it was instead shattered into fragments people now draw power from. His character is trying to live a life devoted to that one true god, in a world that has forgotten the origins of the "gods" they follow and fight over.



                        For your friend, this could be compared to role-playing what life may have been like for early Christians in the Roman era, when the majority of the population had a different set of beliefs, and his faith was potentially dangerous. Most importantly, he'll be role-playing living in a world where no one feels it is necessary to concede to his world view.



                        Be Prepared, Though



                        Still, I have to agree with G. Moylan's answer that the objections of the player in question are unlikely to stop at polytheism- you're going to have push-back the first time you introduce the undead, or magic, or any number of other things. 5e is moving in a very socially progressive direction these days, so you'll probably need to decide early on whether you want to embrace same-sex marriages, gender-changing elves and the like.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$



                        You'll Need to have a Very Frank Chat with your Friend



                        There are plenty of ways you could compromise so that HIS character can worship the "one true God"- he can even try to persuade his fellow players to convert (in character, of course). What he CANNOT do is dictate what content you can put in the world, or what choices other players make for their characters. Doing so not only undermines the other players' enjoyment of the game, it makes it so you cannot do your job as DM effectively. If your friend cannot agree to that, it's perfectly OK to politely suggest that D&D might not be a good fit for him.



                        Compromise is still Important



                        Having said that, tailoring your campaign to suit your players is something all good DMs should do. You need to know your players and create an environment where they can all enjoy themselves, and just as you'd avoid creating a role-playing scenario around a real-life trauma you know a friend has suffered, you should be aware if your campaign is going to make one or more of your players really uncomfortable, and try to find a way around it



                        A Possible Compromise You Might Consider



                        Perhaps your friend's character practices a faith that believes that the "gods" of different pantheons are all actually aspects of the "one true god". In a last ditch effort to save all of creation, the "one true god" sacrificed itself millennia ago- but since it couldn't be destroyed, it was instead shattered into fragments people now draw power from. His character is trying to live a life devoted to that one true god, in a world that has forgotten the origins of the "gods" they follow and fight over.



                        For your friend, this could be compared to role-playing what life may have been like for early Christians in the Roman era, when the majority of the population had a different set of beliefs, and his faith was potentially dangerous. Most importantly, he'll be role-playing living in a world where no one feels it is necessary to concede to his world view.



                        Be Prepared, Though



                        Still, I have to agree with G. Moylan's answer that the objections of the player in question are unlikely to stop at polytheism- you're going to have push-back the first time you introduce the undead, or magic, or any number of other things. 5e is moving in a very socially progressive direction these days, so you'll probably need to decide early on whether you want to embrace same-sex marriages, gender-changing elves and the like.







                        share|improve this answer














                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer








                        edited 4 hours ago









                        V2Blast

                        29.8k5108181




                        29.8k5108181










                        answered 8 hours ago









                        The GrumbleputtyThe Grumbleputty

                        1,105217




                        1,105217







                        • 2




                          $begingroup$
                          Have you had this talk? Did you try the compromise? How was it received?
                          $endgroup$
                          – NautArch
                          7 hours ago












                        • 2




                          $begingroup$
                          Have you had this talk? Did you try the compromise? How was it received?
                          $endgroup$
                          – NautArch
                          7 hours ago







                        2




                        2




                        $begingroup$
                        Have you had this talk? Did you try the compromise? How was it received?
                        $endgroup$
                        – NautArch
                        7 hours ago




                        $begingroup$
                        Have you had this talk? Did you try the compromise? How was it received?
                        $endgroup$
                        – NautArch
                        7 hours ago











                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        Once upon a time, D&D got a lot of press as a Tool of Satan that turns innocent children into murderous devil worshipers. Obviously that is BS, but American culture at the time was more fundamentalist than today and the attitudes of this "problem" player were not uncommon. Those of us who were not adults also had to deal with parents who were even more likely to have these type of concerns.



                        What most of us did was explain the polytheistic aspects away by saying that the various "gods" in the game are just different aspects of the One God. Another similar approach was to describe the gods as servants of the One God something like saints in the Roman Catholic church. If you are playing Forgotten Realms then you can point to Ao as this higher power. I have not played any of the other current realms so I don't know what they have in this role. Mechanically nothing changes but making a semantic change in the label was generally enough to allay worries. A person either wants to play and will find a way to rationalize away their concerns or they will decide the game is "evil" and they will go away on their own.



                        I should note that it was easier back then since clerics and paladins were all the same no matter what deity they chose. Alignment could make a difference but deity could generally just be ignored since it was really just a role playing concern rather than a mechanical issue like it is in modern editions.






                        share|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$

















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          Once upon a time, D&D got a lot of press as a Tool of Satan that turns innocent children into murderous devil worshipers. Obviously that is BS, but American culture at the time was more fundamentalist than today and the attitudes of this "problem" player were not uncommon. Those of us who were not adults also had to deal with parents who were even more likely to have these type of concerns.



                          What most of us did was explain the polytheistic aspects away by saying that the various "gods" in the game are just different aspects of the One God. Another similar approach was to describe the gods as servants of the One God something like saints in the Roman Catholic church. If you are playing Forgotten Realms then you can point to Ao as this higher power. I have not played any of the other current realms so I don't know what they have in this role. Mechanically nothing changes but making a semantic change in the label was generally enough to allay worries. A person either wants to play and will find a way to rationalize away their concerns or they will decide the game is "evil" and they will go away on their own.



                          I should note that it was easier back then since clerics and paladins were all the same no matter what deity they chose. Alignment could make a difference but deity could generally just be ignored since it was really just a role playing concern rather than a mechanical issue like it is in modern editions.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            Once upon a time, D&D got a lot of press as a Tool of Satan that turns innocent children into murderous devil worshipers. Obviously that is BS, but American culture at the time was more fundamentalist than today and the attitudes of this "problem" player were not uncommon. Those of us who were not adults also had to deal with parents who were even more likely to have these type of concerns.



                            What most of us did was explain the polytheistic aspects away by saying that the various "gods" in the game are just different aspects of the One God. Another similar approach was to describe the gods as servants of the One God something like saints in the Roman Catholic church. If you are playing Forgotten Realms then you can point to Ao as this higher power. I have not played any of the other current realms so I don't know what they have in this role. Mechanically nothing changes but making a semantic change in the label was generally enough to allay worries. A person either wants to play and will find a way to rationalize away their concerns or they will decide the game is "evil" and they will go away on their own.



                            I should note that it was easier back then since clerics and paladins were all the same no matter what deity they chose. Alignment could make a difference but deity could generally just be ignored since it was really just a role playing concern rather than a mechanical issue like it is in modern editions.






                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            Once upon a time, D&D got a lot of press as a Tool of Satan that turns innocent children into murderous devil worshipers. Obviously that is BS, but American culture at the time was more fundamentalist than today and the attitudes of this "problem" player were not uncommon. Those of us who were not adults also had to deal with parents who were even more likely to have these type of concerns.



                            What most of us did was explain the polytheistic aspects away by saying that the various "gods" in the game are just different aspects of the One God. Another similar approach was to describe the gods as servants of the One God something like saints in the Roman Catholic church. If you are playing Forgotten Realms then you can point to Ao as this higher power. I have not played any of the other current realms so I don't know what they have in this role. Mechanically nothing changes but making a semantic change in the label was generally enough to allay worries. A person either wants to play and will find a way to rationalize away their concerns or they will decide the game is "evil" and they will go away on their own.



                            I should note that it was easier back then since clerics and paladins were all the same no matter what deity they chose. Alignment could make a difference but deity could generally just be ignored since it was really just a role playing concern rather than a mechanical issue like it is in modern editions.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 1 hour ago









                            krbkrb

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