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Why would oxygen be stored as a super critical fluid?
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Why would oxygen be stored as a super critical fluid?
What does “stirring tanks” mean?Are there enough oxygen molecules in space that they could be compressed into breathable oxygen?How much oxygen and hydrogen are in the soil of Mars?What level of oxygen in a planetary atmosphere would be indicative of life?Function of the RL10 Oxygen Turbopump's Splined Shaft EndCould oxygen be used in a resistojet in a vacuum environment?Why wasn't the Apollo 13 Service Module jettisoned until hours before reentry?How do rocket propellant combinations rank in terms of “brightness”?Why did Apollo 13 need to scrub their oxygen in the LM?Pressurized Organic Oxygen PodsWhy was ramjet fuel used as hydraulic fluid during Saturn V checkout?
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Organic Marble just answered a question about Apollo 13 in terms of the storage of Oxygen, and posted some fascinating stuff, including the fact that Oxygen was stored as a super-critical fluid.
I was just wondering what the benefits of storing Oxygen as a super-critical fluid were and why this was done for Apollo 13? As a follow-up question I was also wondering if this is still the standard for storage of Oxygen?
Note: I know very little of fluid-dynamics.
fuel oxygen apollo-13
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Organic Marble just answered a question about Apollo 13 in terms of the storage of Oxygen, and posted some fascinating stuff, including the fact that Oxygen was stored as a super-critical fluid.
I was just wondering what the benefits of storing Oxygen as a super-critical fluid were and why this was done for Apollo 13? As a follow-up question I was also wondering if this is still the standard for storage of Oxygen?
Note: I know very little of fluid-dynamics.
fuel oxygen apollo-13
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Organic Marble just answered a question about Apollo 13 in terms of the storage of Oxygen, and posted some fascinating stuff, including the fact that Oxygen was stored as a super-critical fluid.
I was just wondering what the benefits of storing Oxygen as a super-critical fluid were and why this was done for Apollo 13? As a follow-up question I was also wondering if this is still the standard for storage of Oxygen?
Note: I know very little of fluid-dynamics.
fuel oxygen apollo-13
$endgroup$
Organic Marble just answered a question about Apollo 13 in terms of the storage of Oxygen, and posted some fascinating stuff, including the fact that Oxygen was stored as a super-critical fluid.
I was just wondering what the benefits of storing Oxygen as a super-critical fluid were and why this was done for Apollo 13? As a follow-up question I was also wondering if this is still the standard for storage of Oxygen?
Note: I know very little of fluid-dynamics.
fuel oxygen apollo-13
fuel oxygen apollo-13
edited 8 hours ago
Magic Octopus Urn
asked 9 hours ago
Magic Octopus UrnMagic Octopus Urn
4,6861 gold badge19 silver badges63 bronze badges
4,6861 gold badge19 silver badges63 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
|
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The same system was used on Shuttle - allow me to discuss that, the design philosophy applies to Apollo as well (Shuttle deleted the fans though, and had a special Avoid-Apollo-13-circuit in the O2 tanks).
A supercritical fluid is any substance at a temperature and pressure
above its critical point, where distinct liquid and gas phases do not
exist.
(wikipedia link in question)
The lack of distinct phases is important for systems like the Apollo and Shuttle cryo systems. The heat transfer properties of gaseous O2 and liquid O2 are quite different - if the fluid was allowed to have gas bubbles in it, hot spots could occur on the heater surfaces adjacent to bubbles, which could be disastrous in the pure O2 environment.
Keeping the O2 and H2 cryogens for the fuel cells at supercritical conditions is a smart design for several reasons.
- There is no concern about keeping the fluids at the tank outlet. The supercritical fluids occupy the entire tank volume.
- It's simple to manage the properties of the fluids - it can be done
with a relatively straightforward heater / pressure sensor control system. - No pumps or other devices are needed to expel the fluids, the high
pressure in the tanks does that for you.
Here are tank quantity / pressure / temperature graphs for the Shuttle tanks.
Downsides include having to use power to run the heaters, relatively heavy and expensive tanks - they have to withstand high pressures, and are vacuum-jacketed, and of course, the danger of running heaters in a pure O2 environment.
Shuttle had a special circuit in its O2 tanks to prevent an Apollo 13 type disaster. Sensors measured the current going into and out of the heater panels. If the in- and out- currents weren't very similar, a short on the heaters was suspected, and the heaters were tripped off.
Source: Orbiter Systems Instructor Console Handbook (not online)
There's a nice description of the Orbiter cryo system in the Press Manual. Here's an O2 tank system schematic from there.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Wow the tid-bit about the failsafe put into place after Apollo 13 was interesting, there's two because they're redundant right? If one heater fails or is shut off due to a malfunction, the other can continue to run?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn Let me check the rules, they were pretty paranoid about it, may not have used the whole heater system.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If I want to know a bit more about how super-critical fluids remove the need for pumps should I ask that in a separate question? Is it simply because the turbidity of swapping states automatically distributes the fluid homogeneously?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Well, you've got a fluid in a tank at 850 psi, if you open a valve connected to that tank, it's gonna come squirting out! Then the pressure starts to drop, and when it drops enough, the heaters come on and bring the pressure back up. I'll add some words about supercritical fluids at the top of the answer.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn there were redundant A and B heaters in each tank as shown on the drawing. The flight rule A9-255 says if a heater trips off while it's powered (so presumably really a short) the redundant heater will be used only under certain special circumstances too long to explain in a comment - but they really didn't want to use that tank at all if they didn't have to archive.org/details/flight_rules_generic/page/n1485
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
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1 Answer
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$begingroup$
The same system was used on Shuttle - allow me to discuss that, the design philosophy applies to Apollo as well (Shuttle deleted the fans though, and had a special Avoid-Apollo-13-circuit in the O2 tanks).
A supercritical fluid is any substance at a temperature and pressure
above its critical point, where distinct liquid and gas phases do not
exist.
(wikipedia link in question)
The lack of distinct phases is important for systems like the Apollo and Shuttle cryo systems. The heat transfer properties of gaseous O2 and liquid O2 are quite different - if the fluid was allowed to have gas bubbles in it, hot spots could occur on the heater surfaces adjacent to bubbles, which could be disastrous in the pure O2 environment.
Keeping the O2 and H2 cryogens for the fuel cells at supercritical conditions is a smart design for several reasons.
- There is no concern about keeping the fluids at the tank outlet. The supercritical fluids occupy the entire tank volume.
- It's simple to manage the properties of the fluids - it can be done
with a relatively straightforward heater / pressure sensor control system. - No pumps or other devices are needed to expel the fluids, the high
pressure in the tanks does that for you.
Here are tank quantity / pressure / temperature graphs for the Shuttle tanks.
Downsides include having to use power to run the heaters, relatively heavy and expensive tanks - they have to withstand high pressures, and are vacuum-jacketed, and of course, the danger of running heaters in a pure O2 environment.
Shuttle had a special circuit in its O2 tanks to prevent an Apollo 13 type disaster. Sensors measured the current going into and out of the heater panels. If the in- and out- currents weren't very similar, a short on the heaters was suspected, and the heaters were tripped off.
Source: Orbiter Systems Instructor Console Handbook (not online)
There's a nice description of the Orbiter cryo system in the Press Manual. Here's an O2 tank system schematic from there.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Wow the tid-bit about the failsafe put into place after Apollo 13 was interesting, there's two because they're redundant right? If one heater fails or is shut off due to a malfunction, the other can continue to run?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn Let me check the rules, they were pretty paranoid about it, may not have used the whole heater system.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If I want to know a bit more about how super-critical fluids remove the need for pumps should I ask that in a separate question? Is it simply because the turbidity of swapping states automatically distributes the fluid homogeneously?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Well, you've got a fluid in a tank at 850 psi, if you open a valve connected to that tank, it's gonna come squirting out! Then the pressure starts to drop, and when it drops enough, the heaters come on and bring the pressure back up. I'll add some words about supercritical fluids at the top of the answer.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn there were redundant A and B heaters in each tank as shown on the drawing. The flight rule A9-255 says if a heater trips off while it's powered (so presumably really a short) the redundant heater will be used only under certain special circumstances too long to explain in a comment - but they really didn't want to use that tank at all if they didn't have to archive.org/details/flight_rules_generic/page/n1485
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The same system was used on Shuttle - allow me to discuss that, the design philosophy applies to Apollo as well (Shuttle deleted the fans though, and had a special Avoid-Apollo-13-circuit in the O2 tanks).
A supercritical fluid is any substance at a temperature and pressure
above its critical point, where distinct liquid and gas phases do not
exist.
(wikipedia link in question)
The lack of distinct phases is important for systems like the Apollo and Shuttle cryo systems. The heat transfer properties of gaseous O2 and liquid O2 are quite different - if the fluid was allowed to have gas bubbles in it, hot spots could occur on the heater surfaces adjacent to bubbles, which could be disastrous in the pure O2 environment.
Keeping the O2 and H2 cryogens for the fuel cells at supercritical conditions is a smart design for several reasons.
- There is no concern about keeping the fluids at the tank outlet. The supercritical fluids occupy the entire tank volume.
- It's simple to manage the properties of the fluids - it can be done
with a relatively straightforward heater / pressure sensor control system. - No pumps or other devices are needed to expel the fluids, the high
pressure in the tanks does that for you.
Here are tank quantity / pressure / temperature graphs for the Shuttle tanks.
Downsides include having to use power to run the heaters, relatively heavy and expensive tanks - they have to withstand high pressures, and are vacuum-jacketed, and of course, the danger of running heaters in a pure O2 environment.
Shuttle had a special circuit in its O2 tanks to prevent an Apollo 13 type disaster. Sensors measured the current going into and out of the heater panels. If the in- and out- currents weren't very similar, a short on the heaters was suspected, and the heaters were tripped off.
Source: Orbiter Systems Instructor Console Handbook (not online)
There's a nice description of the Orbiter cryo system in the Press Manual. Here's an O2 tank system schematic from there.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Wow the tid-bit about the failsafe put into place after Apollo 13 was interesting, there's two because they're redundant right? If one heater fails or is shut off due to a malfunction, the other can continue to run?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn Let me check the rules, they were pretty paranoid about it, may not have used the whole heater system.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If I want to know a bit more about how super-critical fluids remove the need for pumps should I ask that in a separate question? Is it simply because the turbidity of swapping states automatically distributes the fluid homogeneously?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Well, you've got a fluid in a tank at 850 psi, if you open a valve connected to that tank, it's gonna come squirting out! Then the pressure starts to drop, and when it drops enough, the heaters come on and bring the pressure back up. I'll add some words about supercritical fluids at the top of the answer.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn there were redundant A and B heaters in each tank as shown on the drawing. The flight rule A9-255 says if a heater trips off while it's powered (so presumably really a short) the redundant heater will be used only under certain special circumstances too long to explain in a comment - but they really didn't want to use that tank at all if they didn't have to archive.org/details/flight_rules_generic/page/n1485
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The same system was used on Shuttle - allow me to discuss that, the design philosophy applies to Apollo as well (Shuttle deleted the fans though, and had a special Avoid-Apollo-13-circuit in the O2 tanks).
A supercritical fluid is any substance at a temperature and pressure
above its critical point, where distinct liquid and gas phases do not
exist.
(wikipedia link in question)
The lack of distinct phases is important for systems like the Apollo and Shuttle cryo systems. The heat transfer properties of gaseous O2 and liquid O2 are quite different - if the fluid was allowed to have gas bubbles in it, hot spots could occur on the heater surfaces adjacent to bubbles, which could be disastrous in the pure O2 environment.
Keeping the O2 and H2 cryogens for the fuel cells at supercritical conditions is a smart design for several reasons.
- There is no concern about keeping the fluids at the tank outlet. The supercritical fluids occupy the entire tank volume.
- It's simple to manage the properties of the fluids - it can be done
with a relatively straightforward heater / pressure sensor control system. - No pumps or other devices are needed to expel the fluids, the high
pressure in the tanks does that for you.
Here are tank quantity / pressure / temperature graphs for the Shuttle tanks.
Downsides include having to use power to run the heaters, relatively heavy and expensive tanks - they have to withstand high pressures, and are vacuum-jacketed, and of course, the danger of running heaters in a pure O2 environment.
Shuttle had a special circuit in its O2 tanks to prevent an Apollo 13 type disaster. Sensors measured the current going into and out of the heater panels. If the in- and out- currents weren't very similar, a short on the heaters was suspected, and the heaters were tripped off.
Source: Orbiter Systems Instructor Console Handbook (not online)
There's a nice description of the Orbiter cryo system in the Press Manual. Here's an O2 tank system schematic from there.
$endgroup$
The same system was used on Shuttle - allow me to discuss that, the design philosophy applies to Apollo as well (Shuttle deleted the fans though, and had a special Avoid-Apollo-13-circuit in the O2 tanks).
A supercritical fluid is any substance at a temperature and pressure
above its critical point, where distinct liquid and gas phases do not
exist.
(wikipedia link in question)
The lack of distinct phases is important for systems like the Apollo and Shuttle cryo systems. The heat transfer properties of gaseous O2 and liquid O2 are quite different - if the fluid was allowed to have gas bubbles in it, hot spots could occur on the heater surfaces adjacent to bubbles, which could be disastrous in the pure O2 environment.
Keeping the O2 and H2 cryogens for the fuel cells at supercritical conditions is a smart design for several reasons.
- There is no concern about keeping the fluids at the tank outlet. The supercritical fluids occupy the entire tank volume.
- It's simple to manage the properties of the fluids - it can be done
with a relatively straightforward heater / pressure sensor control system. - No pumps or other devices are needed to expel the fluids, the high
pressure in the tanks does that for you.
Here are tank quantity / pressure / temperature graphs for the Shuttle tanks.
Downsides include having to use power to run the heaters, relatively heavy and expensive tanks - they have to withstand high pressures, and are vacuum-jacketed, and of course, the danger of running heaters in a pure O2 environment.
Shuttle had a special circuit in its O2 tanks to prevent an Apollo 13 type disaster. Sensors measured the current going into and out of the heater panels. If the in- and out- currents weren't very similar, a short on the heaters was suspected, and the heaters were tripped off.
Source: Orbiter Systems Instructor Console Handbook (not online)
There's a nice description of the Orbiter cryo system in the Press Manual. Here's an O2 tank system schematic from there.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
81.6k4 gold badges246 silver badges349 bronze badges
81.6k4 gold badges246 silver badges349 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Wow the tid-bit about the failsafe put into place after Apollo 13 was interesting, there's two because they're redundant right? If one heater fails or is shut off due to a malfunction, the other can continue to run?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn Let me check the rules, they were pretty paranoid about it, may not have used the whole heater system.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If I want to know a bit more about how super-critical fluids remove the need for pumps should I ask that in a separate question? Is it simply because the turbidity of swapping states automatically distributes the fluid homogeneously?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Well, you've got a fluid in a tank at 850 psi, if you open a valve connected to that tank, it's gonna come squirting out! Then the pressure starts to drop, and when it drops enough, the heaters come on and bring the pressure back up. I'll add some words about supercritical fluids at the top of the answer.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn there were redundant A and B heaters in each tank as shown on the drawing. The flight rule A9-255 says if a heater trips off while it's powered (so presumably really a short) the redundant heater will be used only under certain special circumstances too long to explain in a comment - but they really didn't want to use that tank at all if they didn't have to archive.org/details/flight_rules_generic/page/n1485
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Wow the tid-bit about the failsafe put into place after Apollo 13 was interesting, there's two because they're redundant right? If one heater fails or is shut off due to a malfunction, the other can continue to run?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn Let me check the rules, they were pretty paranoid about it, may not have used the whole heater system.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If I want to know a bit more about how super-critical fluids remove the need for pumps should I ask that in a separate question? Is it simply because the turbidity of swapping states automatically distributes the fluid homogeneously?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Well, you've got a fluid in a tank at 850 psi, if you open a valve connected to that tank, it's gonna come squirting out! Then the pressure starts to drop, and when it drops enough, the heaters come on and bring the pressure back up. I'll add some words about supercritical fluids at the top of the answer.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn there were redundant A and B heaters in each tank as shown on the drawing. The flight rule A9-255 says if a heater trips off while it's powered (so presumably really a short) the redundant heater will be used only under certain special circumstances too long to explain in a comment - but they really didn't want to use that tank at all if they didn't have to archive.org/details/flight_rules_generic/page/n1485
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Wow the tid-bit about the failsafe put into place after Apollo 13 was interesting, there's two because they're redundant right? If one heater fails or is shut off due to a malfunction, the other can continue to run?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Wow the tid-bit about the failsafe put into place after Apollo 13 was interesting, there's two because they're redundant right? If one heater fails or is shut off due to a malfunction, the other can continue to run?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn Let me check the rules, they were pretty paranoid about it, may not have used the whole heater system.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn Let me check the rules, they were pretty paranoid about it, may not have used the whole heater system.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If I want to know a bit more about how super-critical fluids remove the need for pumps should I ask that in a separate question? Is it simply because the turbidity of swapping states automatically distributes the fluid homogeneously?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If I want to know a bit more about how super-critical fluids remove the need for pumps should I ask that in a separate question? Is it simply because the turbidity of swapping states automatically distributes the fluid homogeneously?
$endgroup$
– Magic Octopus Urn
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Well, you've got a fluid in a tank at 850 psi, if you open a valve connected to that tank, it's gonna come squirting out! Then the pressure starts to drop, and when it drops enough, the heaters come on and bring the pressure back up. I'll add some words about supercritical fluids at the top of the answer.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Well, you've got a fluid in a tank at 850 psi, if you open a valve connected to that tank, it's gonna come squirting out! Then the pressure starts to drop, and when it drops enough, the heaters come on and bring the pressure back up. I'll add some words about supercritical fluids at the top of the answer.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn there were redundant A and B heaters in each tank as shown on the drawing. The flight rule A9-255 says if a heater trips off while it's powered (so presumably really a short) the redundant heater will be used only under certain special circumstances too long to explain in a comment - but they really didn't want to use that tank at all if they didn't have to archive.org/details/flight_rules_generic/page/n1485
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MagicOctopusUrn there were redundant A and B heaters in each tank as shown on the drawing. The flight rule A9-255 says if a heater trips off while it's powered (so presumably really a short) the redundant heater will be used only under certain special circumstances too long to explain in a comment - but they really didn't want to use that tank at all if they didn't have to archive.org/details/flight_rules_generic/page/n1485
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
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