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Why do proponents of guns oppose gun competency tests?


Gun prevalence vs homicide rates - correlation and causationWhy do Democrats support gun restrictionsGuns in the United StatesHow many people were saved by guns?Why don't governments recognize each other's gun permits?Why is there a gun amnesty in Australia? (2017)What do gun opponents in the US say regarding the balance between security and the freedom to own guns?Official reasons for locking guns and ammunition up separatelyWhy is the UK so strongly opposed to private ownership of guns?When was the Second Amendment last used to fight against the US government to protect people's freedom?






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5















Many people on the right who are in favor of the right to own guns do so based on reasons such as safety. For example, in the wake of pretty much any mass shooting, you will have people come out and say that the solution is to equip even more people with guns so that they can intervene and take out the shooter in such situations. Other examples include simple home security against robbers and what not.



But these same people also tend to oppose gun control policies such as competency tests and strict licensing prior to the acquiral of a gun. How is the co-existence of these two sentiments justified?



One would think that if the usage of guns is purely a matter of safety, then competency in using those guns would be a high priority. After all, if we want to equip people with guns to protect us from robbers or deranged shooters, we would want to ensure that they are as competent in using those guns as possible. And if a person can't pass a competency or licensing requirement, then perhaps they shouldn't own one.



So, what arguments are offered by these people to justify opposing gun competency tests?



Note that I am well aware that many people oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern. Rather, they just really like guns, and competency tests is a possible barrier that could prevent them from getting more of them, so they oppose it. My question is not about these people, I am speaking solely of people that concede that safety is their primary concern yet they still oppose competency tests. What arguments do they use to justify such a position?










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    5















    Many people on the right who are in favor of the right to own guns do so based on reasons such as safety. For example, in the wake of pretty much any mass shooting, you will have people come out and say that the solution is to equip even more people with guns so that they can intervene and take out the shooter in such situations. Other examples include simple home security against robbers and what not.



    But these same people also tend to oppose gun control policies such as competency tests and strict licensing prior to the acquiral of a gun. How is the co-existence of these two sentiments justified?



    One would think that if the usage of guns is purely a matter of safety, then competency in using those guns would be a high priority. After all, if we want to equip people with guns to protect us from robbers or deranged shooters, we would want to ensure that they are as competent in using those guns as possible. And if a person can't pass a competency or licensing requirement, then perhaps they shouldn't own one.



    So, what arguments are offered by these people to justify opposing gun competency tests?



    Note that I am well aware that many people oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern. Rather, they just really like guns, and competency tests is a possible barrier that could prevent them from getting more of them, so they oppose it. My question is not about these people, I am speaking solely of people that concede that safety is their primary concern yet they still oppose competency tests. What arguments do they use to justify such a position?










    share|improve this question







    New contributor



    abudl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      5












      5








      5








      Many people on the right who are in favor of the right to own guns do so based on reasons such as safety. For example, in the wake of pretty much any mass shooting, you will have people come out and say that the solution is to equip even more people with guns so that they can intervene and take out the shooter in such situations. Other examples include simple home security against robbers and what not.



      But these same people also tend to oppose gun control policies such as competency tests and strict licensing prior to the acquiral of a gun. How is the co-existence of these two sentiments justified?



      One would think that if the usage of guns is purely a matter of safety, then competency in using those guns would be a high priority. After all, if we want to equip people with guns to protect us from robbers or deranged shooters, we would want to ensure that they are as competent in using those guns as possible. And if a person can't pass a competency or licensing requirement, then perhaps they shouldn't own one.



      So, what arguments are offered by these people to justify opposing gun competency tests?



      Note that I am well aware that many people oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern. Rather, they just really like guns, and competency tests is a possible barrier that could prevent them from getting more of them, so they oppose it. My question is not about these people, I am speaking solely of people that concede that safety is their primary concern yet they still oppose competency tests. What arguments do they use to justify such a position?










      share|improve this question







      New contributor



      abudl is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      Many people on the right who are in favor of the right to own guns do so based on reasons such as safety. For example, in the wake of pretty much any mass shooting, you will have people come out and say that the solution is to equip even more people with guns so that they can intervene and take out the shooter in such situations. Other examples include simple home security against robbers and what not.



      But these same people also tend to oppose gun control policies such as competency tests and strict licensing prior to the acquiral of a gun. How is the co-existence of these two sentiments justified?



      One would think that if the usage of guns is purely a matter of safety, then competency in using those guns would be a high priority. After all, if we want to equip people with guns to protect us from robbers or deranged shooters, we would want to ensure that they are as competent in using those guns as possible. And if a person can't pass a competency or licensing requirement, then perhaps they shouldn't own one.



      So, what arguments are offered by these people to justify opposing gun competency tests?



      Note that I am well aware that many people oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern. Rather, they just really like guns, and competency tests is a possible barrier that could prevent them from getting more of them, so they oppose it. My question is not about these people, I am speaking solely of people that concede that safety is their primary concern yet they still oppose competency tests. What arguments do they use to justify such a position?







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          2 Answers
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          2














          In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.



          Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters



          An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.



          Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.



          Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.



          Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.






          share|improve this answer




















          • 1





            Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?

            – JJJ
            5 hours ago











          • @jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago











          • @SteveSmith "There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people." I feel like this need some citation, or some specific reasoning as to why this would apply to guns. While >I< have a personal opinion that people do generally think of gun rights as a white person thing, and get scared by the idea of non-white people carrying guns (I'd cite the extreme responses in cases where law enforcement have considered non-white people threats), I couldn't claim that there's any actual evidence to suggest discrimination would apply here.

            – DariM
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?

            – DariM
            2 hours ago


















          1














          Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?



          (And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)






          share|improve this answer

























          • I have also heard the argument that people object to the government having a "list" of all gun owners that they could then use for nefarious purposes, akin to the McCarthy era blacklists of suspected communists.

            – cpcodes
            5 hours ago












          • @cpcodes Do you mean the McCarthy era?

            – divibisan
            5 hours ago











          • @cpcodes, I don't buy that. Count the cops. Count the citizens. A government that thinks it can seize guns from all citizens is either badly overconfident, or already a police state with more meaningful lists at their disposal.

            – o.m.
            5 hours ago











          • @o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago






          • 2





            You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.

            – Obie 2.0
            3 hours ago














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          2 Answers
          2






          active

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          2 Answers
          2






          active

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          active

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          active

          oldest

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          2














          In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.



          Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters



          An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.



          Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.



          Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.



          Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.






          share|improve this answer




















          • 1





            Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?

            – JJJ
            5 hours ago











          • @jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago











          • @SteveSmith "There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people." I feel like this need some citation, or some specific reasoning as to why this would apply to guns. While >I< have a personal opinion that people do generally think of gun rights as a white person thing, and get scared by the idea of non-white people carrying guns (I'd cite the extreme responses in cases where law enforcement have considered non-white people threats), I couldn't claim that there's any actual evidence to suggest discrimination would apply here.

            – DariM
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?

            – DariM
            2 hours ago















          2














          In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.



          Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters



          An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.



          Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.



          Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.



          Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.






          share|improve this answer




















          • 1





            Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?

            – JJJ
            5 hours ago











          • @jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago











          • @SteveSmith "There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people." I feel like this need some citation, or some specific reasoning as to why this would apply to guns. While >I< have a personal opinion that people do generally think of gun rights as a white person thing, and get scared by the idea of non-white people carrying guns (I'd cite the extreme responses in cases where law enforcement have considered non-white people threats), I couldn't claim that there's any actual evidence to suggest discrimination would apply here.

            – DariM
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?

            – DariM
            2 hours ago













          2












          2








          2







          In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.



          Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters



          An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.



          Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.



          Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.



          Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.






          share|improve this answer













          In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.



          Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters



          An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.



          Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.



          Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.



          Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 5 hours ago









          Steve SmithSteve Smith

          2,3473 silver badges18 bronze badges




          2,3473 silver badges18 bronze badges










          • 1





            Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?

            – JJJ
            5 hours ago











          • @jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago











          • @SteveSmith "There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people." I feel like this need some citation, or some specific reasoning as to why this would apply to guns. While >I< have a personal opinion that people do generally think of gun rights as a white person thing, and get scared by the idea of non-white people carrying guns (I'd cite the extreme responses in cases where law enforcement have considered non-white people threats), I couldn't claim that there's any actual evidence to suggest discrimination would apply here.

            – DariM
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?

            – DariM
            2 hours ago












          • 1





            Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?

            – JJJ
            5 hours ago











          • @jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago











          • @SteveSmith "There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people." I feel like this need some citation, or some specific reasoning as to why this would apply to guns. While >I< have a personal opinion that people do generally think of gun rights as a white person thing, and get scared by the idea of non-white people carrying guns (I'd cite the extreme responses in cases where law enforcement have considered non-white people threats), I couldn't claim that there's any actual evidence to suggest discrimination would apply here.

            – DariM
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?

            – DariM
            2 hours ago







          1




          1





          Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?

          – JJJ
          5 hours ago





          Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?

          – JJJ
          5 hours ago













          @jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.

          – Steve Smith
          5 hours ago





          @jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.

          – Steve Smith
          5 hours ago













          @SteveSmith "There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people." I feel like this need some citation, or some specific reasoning as to why this would apply to guns. While >I< have a personal opinion that people do generally think of gun rights as a white person thing, and get scared by the idea of non-white people carrying guns (I'd cite the extreme responses in cases where law enforcement have considered non-white people threats), I couldn't claim that there's any actual evidence to suggest discrimination would apply here.

          – DariM
          2 hours ago





          @SteveSmith "There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people." I feel like this need some citation, or some specific reasoning as to why this would apply to guns. While >I< have a personal opinion that people do generally think of gun rights as a white person thing, and get scared by the idea of non-white people carrying guns (I'd cite the extreme responses in cases where law enforcement have considered non-white people threats), I couldn't claim that there's any actual evidence to suggest discrimination would apply here.

          – DariM
          2 hours ago




          1




          1





          The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?

          – DariM
          2 hours ago





          The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?

          – DariM
          2 hours ago













          1














          Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?



          (And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)






          share|improve this answer

























          • I have also heard the argument that people object to the government having a "list" of all gun owners that they could then use for nefarious purposes, akin to the McCarthy era blacklists of suspected communists.

            – cpcodes
            5 hours ago












          • @cpcodes Do you mean the McCarthy era?

            – divibisan
            5 hours ago











          • @cpcodes, I don't buy that. Count the cops. Count the citizens. A government that thinks it can seize guns from all citizens is either badly overconfident, or already a police state with more meaningful lists at their disposal.

            – o.m.
            5 hours ago











          • @o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago






          • 2





            You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.

            – Obie 2.0
            3 hours ago
















          1














          Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?



          (And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)






          share|improve this answer

























          • I have also heard the argument that people object to the government having a "list" of all gun owners that they could then use for nefarious purposes, akin to the McCarthy era blacklists of suspected communists.

            – cpcodes
            5 hours ago












          • @cpcodes Do you mean the McCarthy era?

            – divibisan
            5 hours ago











          • @cpcodes, I don't buy that. Count the cops. Count the citizens. A government that thinks it can seize guns from all citizens is either badly overconfident, or already a police state with more meaningful lists at their disposal.

            – o.m.
            5 hours ago











          • @o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago






          • 2





            You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.

            – Obie 2.0
            3 hours ago














          1












          1








          1







          Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?



          (And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)






          share|improve this answer













          Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?



          (And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 6 hours ago









          o.m.o.m.

          18.1k3 gold badges43 silver badges64 bronze badges




          18.1k3 gold badges43 silver badges64 bronze badges















          • I have also heard the argument that people object to the government having a "list" of all gun owners that they could then use for nefarious purposes, akin to the McCarthy era blacklists of suspected communists.

            – cpcodes
            5 hours ago












          • @cpcodes Do you mean the McCarthy era?

            – divibisan
            5 hours ago











          • @cpcodes, I don't buy that. Count the cops. Count the citizens. A government that thinks it can seize guns from all citizens is either badly overconfident, or already a police state with more meaningful lists at their disposal.

            – o.m.
            5 hours ago











          • @o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago






          • 2





            You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.

            – Obie 2.0
            3 hours ago


















          • I have also heard the argument that people object to the government having a "list" of all gun owners that they could then use for nefarious purposes, akin to the McCarthy era blacklists of suspected communists.

            – cpcodes
            5 hours ago












          • @cpcodes Do you mean the McCarthy era?

            – divibisan
            5 hours ago











          • @cpcodes, I don't buy that. Count the cops. Count the citizens. A government that thinks it can seize guns from all citizens is either badly overconfident, or already a police state with more meaningful lists at their disposal.

            – o.m.
            5 hours ago











          • @o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence

            – Steve Smith
            5 hours ago






          • 2





            You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.

            – Obie 2.0
            3 hours ago

















          I have also heard the argument that people object to the government having a "list" of all gun owners that they could then use for nefarious purposes, akin to the McCarthy era blacklists of suspected communists.

          – cpcodes
          5 hours ago






          I have also heard the argument that people object to the government having a "list" of all gun owners that they could then use for nefarious purposes, akin to the McCarthy era blacklists of suspected communists.

          – cpcodes
          5 hours ago














          @cpcodes Do you mean the McCarthy era?

          – divibisan
          5 hours ago





          @cpcodes Do you mean the McCarthy era?

          – divibisan
          5 hours ago













          @cpcodes, I don't buy that. Count the cops. Count the citizens. A government that thinks it can seize guns from all citizens is either badly overconfident, or already a police state with more meaningful lists at their disposal.

          – o.m.
          5 hours ago





          @cpcodes, I don't buy that. Count the cops. Count the citizens. A government that thinks it can seize guns from all citizens is either badly overconfident, or already a police state with more meaningful lists at their disposal.

          – o.m.
          5 hours ago













          @o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence

          – Steve Smith
          5 hours ago





          @o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence

          – Steve Smith
          5 hours ago




          2




          2





          You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.

          – Obie 2.0
          3 hours ago






          You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.

          – Obie 2.0
          3 hours ago











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