Four-velocity of radially infalling gas in Schwarzschild metricWhat is the Schwarzschild metric with proper radial distance?Schwarzschild metric in Isotropic coordinatesSchwarzschild metric circular orbits and kepler's 3rd lawThe spatial Schwarzschild metricFour-velocity in General-relativistic geodesic equationEnergy of a circular orbit in the Schwarzschild metric?On the embedding of the Schwarzschild metric in six dimensionsAre the space and time axes of Schwarzschild metric uncurved?Freely falling observer in Schwarzschild metricVelocity of a photon according to a stationary observer in Schwarzschild metric
…down the primrose path
“The Fourier transform cannot measure two phases at the same frequency.” Why not?
How to check a file was encrypted (really & correctly)
What is the reason behind water not falling from a bucket at the top of loop?
Are the related objects in an SOQL query shared?
I was contacted by a private bank overseas to get my inheritance
Plotting Autoregressive Functions / Linear Difference Equations
Getting Lost in the Caves of Chaos
Is there a way to say "double + any number" in German?
Why is it to say 'paucis post diebus'?
Can I use my US callsign to transmit while in El Salvador?
How do the surviving Asgardians get to Earth?
Why do rocket engines use nitrogen actuators to operate the fuel/oxidiser valves instead of electric servos?
How easy is it to get a gun illegally in the United States?
Why are there yellow dot stickers on the front doors of businesses in Russia?
How does Rust's 128-bit integer `i128` work on a 64-bit system?
What are the limitations of the Hendersson-Hasselbalch equation?
C# TCP server/client class
What could prevent players from leaving an island?
Conditional probability of dependent random variables
Why does capacitance not depend on the material of the plates?
Broken bottom bracket?
What license to choose for my PhD thesis?
Generate random number in Unity without class ambiguity
Four-velocity of radially infalling gas in Schwarzschild metric
What is the Schwarzschild metric with proper radial distance?Schwarzschild metric in Isotropic coordinatesSchwarzschild metric circular orbits and kepler's 3rd lawThe spatial Schwarzschild metricFour-velocity in General-relativistic geodesic equationEnergy of a circular orbit in the Schwarzschild metric?On the embedding of the Schwarzschild metric in six dimensionsAre the space and time axes of Schwarzschild metric uncurved?Freely falling observer in Schwarzschild metricVelocity of a photon according to a stationary observer in Schwarzschild metric
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
I am reading this paper by Thorne, Flammang & Zytkow (1981), which discusses the dynamics of spherical accretion onto a black hole in the Schwarzschild metric ($c=G=1$ units):
$$ds^2=-(1-2M/r)dt^2+(1-2M/r)^-1dr^2+r^2(dtheta^2+sin^2theta dphi^2)$$
For a gas with inward velocity $v$ (as measured by an observer at rest in this metric), equations 2-3 of the paper give this expression for the four-velocity:
$$mathbfu=y(1-2M/r)^-1fracpartialpartial t-vyfracpartialpartial r$$
$$yequivmathbfucdotfracpartialpartial t=(1-2M/r)^1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$$
$y$ is the so-called energy parameter, and it would be a constant if the trajectory was a geodesic.
I am having trouble understanding how to obtain this expression. Here is what I tried so far:
- The velocity is $v=-fracdrdt$ (minus sign because the gas is moving inward)
- The four-velocity components are usually written as $U^mu=fracdx^mudtau$, where $tau$ is the proper time
- By the chain rule, $fracdrdtau=fracdrdtfracdtdtau=-vfracdtdtau$
- The four-velocity as a vector is $mathbfu=U^mupartial_mu=U^mufracpartialpartial x^mu$
So that:
$$mathbfu=fracdtdtaufracpartialpartial t+fracdrdtaufracpartialpartial r quad\=fracdtdtauleft(fracpartialpartial t-vfracpartialpartial rright)$$
Further, since $ds^2=-dtau^2$, we have:
$$-1=-(1-2M/r)left(fracdtdtauright)^2+(1-2M/r)^-1left(fracdrdtauright)^2\
=left(fracdtdtauright)^2left(-(1-2M/r)+(1-2M/r)^-1v^2right)
$$
I don't see how this can lead to the expression for the four-velocity from the paper, so I must be making a mistake somewhere. Any help would be appreciated.
general-relativity black-holes
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am reading this paper by Thorne, Flammang & Zytkow (1981), which discusses the dynamics of spherical accretion onto a black hole in the Schwarzschild metric ($c=G=1$ units):
$$ds^2=-(1-2M/r)dt^2+(1-2M/r)^-1dr^2+r^2(dtheta^2+sin^2theta dphi^2)$$
For a gas with inward velocity $v$ (as measured by an observer at rest in this metric), equations 2-3 of the paper give this expression for the four-velocity:
$$mathbfu=y(1-2M/r)^-1fracpartialpartial t-vyfracpartialpartial r$$
$$yequivmathbfucdotfracpartialpartial t=(1-2M/r)^1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$$
$y$ is the so-called energy parameter, and it would be a constant if the trajectory was a geodesic.
I am having trouble understanding how to obtain this expression. Here is what I tried so far:
- The velocity is $v=-fracdrdt$ (minus sign because the gas is moving inward)
- The four-velocity components are usually written as $U^mu=fracdx^mudtau$, where $tau$ is the proper time
- By the chain rule, $fracdrdtau=fracdrdtfracdtdtau=-vfracdtdtau$
- The four-velocity as a vector is $mathbfu=U^mupartial_mu=U^mufracpartialpartial x^mu$
So that:
$$mathbfu=fracdtdtaufracpartialpartial t+fracdrdtaufracpartialpartial r quad\=fracdtdtauleft(fracpartialpartial t-vfracpartialpartial rright)$$
Further, since $ds^2=-dtau^2$, we have:
$$-1=-(1-2M/r)left(fracdtdtauright)^2+(1-2M/r)^-1left(fracdrdtauright)^2\
=left(fracdtdtauright)^2left(-(1-2M/r)+(1-2M/r)^-1v^2right)
$$
I don't see how this can lead to the expression for the four-velocity from the paper, so I must be making a mistake somewhere. Any help would be appreciated.
general-relativity black-holes
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am reading this paper by Thorne, Flammang & Zytkow (1981), which discusses the dynamics of spherical accretion onto a black hole in the Schwarzschild metric ($c=G=1$ units):
$$ds^2=-(1-2M/r)dt^2+(1-2M/r)^-1dr^2+r^2(dtheta^2+sin^2theta dphi^2)$$
For a gas with inward velocity $v$ (as measured by an observer at rest in this metric), equations 2-3 of the paper give this expression for the four-velocity:
$$mathbfu=y(1-2M/r)^-1fracpartialpartial t-vyfracpartialpartial r$$
$$yequivmathbfucdotfracpartialpartial t=(1-2M/r)^1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$$
$y$ is the so-called energy parameter, and it would be a constant if the trajectory was a geodesic.
I am having trouble understanding how to obtain this expression. Here is what I tried so far:
- The velocity is $v=-fracdrdt$ (minus sign because the gas is moving inward)
- The four-velocity components are usually written as $U^mu=fracdx^mudtau$, where $tau$ is the proper time
- By the chain rule, $fracdrdtau=fracdrdtfracdtdtau=-vfracdtdtau$
- The four-velocity as a vector is $mathbfu=U^mupartial_mu=U^mufracpartialpartial x^mu$
So that:
$$mathbfu=fracdtdtaufracpartialpartial t+fracdrdtaufracpartialpartial r quad\=fracdtdtauleft(fracpartialpartial t-vfracpartialpartial rright)$$
Further, since $ds^2=-dtau^2$, we have:
$$-1=-(1-2M/r)left(fracdtdtauright)^2+(1-2M/r)^-1left(fracdrdtauright)^2\
=left(fracdtdtauright)^2left(-(1-2M/r)+(1-2M/r)^-1v^2right)
$$
I don't see how this can lead to the expression for the four-velocity from the paper, so I must be making a mistake somewhere. Any help would be appreciated.
general-relativity black-holes
$endgroup$
I am reading this paper by Thorne, Flammang & Zytkow (1981), which discusses the dynamics of spherical accretion onto a black hole in the Schwarzschild metric ($c=G=1$ units):
$$ds^2=-(1-2M/r)dt^2+(1-2M/r)^-1dr^2+r^2(dtheta^2+sin^2theta dphi^2)$$
For a gas with inward velocity $v$ (as measured by an observer at rest in this metric), equations 2-3 of the paper give this expression for the four-velocity:
$$mathbfu=y(1-2M/r)^-1fracpartialpartial t-vyfracpartialpartial r$$
$$yequivmathbfucdotfracpartialpartial t=(1-2M/r)^1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$$
$y$ is the so-called energy parameter, and it would be a constant if the trajectory was a geodesic.
I am having trouble understanding how to obtain this expression. Here is what I tried so far:
- The velocity is $v=-fracdrdt$ (minus sign because the gas is moving inward)
- The four-velocity components are usually written as $U^mu=fracdx^mudtau$, where $tau$ is the proper time
- By the chain rule, $fracdrdtau=fracdrdtfracdtdtau=-vfracdtdtau$
- The four-velocity as a vector is $mathbfu=U^mupartial_mu=U^mufracpartialpartial x^mu$
So that:
$$mathbfu=fracdtdtaufracpartialpartial t+fracdrdtaufracpartialpartial r quad\=fracdtdtauleft(fracpartialpartial t-vfracpartialpartial rright)$$
Further, since $ds^2=-dtau^2$, we have:
$$-1=-(1-2M/r)left(fracdtdtauright)^2+(1-2M/r)^-1left(fracdrdtauright)^2\
=left(fracdtdtauright)^2left(-(1-2M/r)+(1-2M/r)^-1v^2right)
$$
I don't see how this can lead to the expression for the four-velocity from the paper, so I must be making a mistake somewhere. Any help would be appreciated.
general-relativity black-holes
general-relativity black-holes
asked 8 hours ago
Simon G.Simon G.
165 bronze badges
165 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The velocity $v$ is not $dr/dt$. What the paper says is
$vquad$ inward velocity of gas as measured by an observer at fixed $r$ in his local proper reference frame
This means that you need to build an orthonormal frame from the $partial/partial^mu$ vectors at a given spacetime point. Well, you can check that the vectors
$$mathbfe_hatt = frac1sqrt1-2M/r partial_t quad textand quad mathbfe_hatr = sqrt1 - 2M/r partial_r$$
are orthonormal, satisfying $mathbfe_hatt cdot mathbfe_hatt = -1$ and $mathbfe_hatr cdot mathbfe_hatr = 1$. In terms of these, the four-velocity is
$$mathbfu = fracysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatt - fracvysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatr = u^hatmu mathbfe_hatmu,$$
and we have that $v = -u^hatr/u^hatt$. Or, to put it another way, the four-velocity has the $mathbfu = (gamma, -gamma v)$ structure we expect from special relativity.
What if we want to go the other way and write down an expression for the four-velocity? We start with our expressions for the orthonormal basis vectors $mathbfe_hatmu$ and the four-velocity $mathbfu = u^hatt mathbfe_hatt + u^hatr mathbfe_hatr$. From the special relativistic formula $mathbfu = gamma(v) mathbfe_hatt - gamma(v) v mathbfe_hatr$ (which holds since we're in an orthonormal basis), we get that $u^hatt = gamma(v)$ and $u^hatr = -gamma(v) v$. Finally, going back to the $partial_mu$ basis, we find
$$mathbfu = fracgamma(v)sqrt1-2M/r partial_t - gamma(v) v sqrt1-2M/r partial_r.$$
This is the same as the given expression if we define $y = - mathbfu cdot partial_t = - g_tt u^t$, which works out to $y = gamma(v) sqrt1-2M/r$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did have a misconception about which velocity v is. I see how this leads to the expression in the paper, but could you explain how to get the u components in this basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I just replaced the $partial_mu$ vectors in terms of the $mathbfe_hatmu$, using that $partial_t = sqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_t$ and so on.
$endgroup$
– Javier
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how would I get the expression for the four-velocity in the first place? Where do $y$ and $v$ come from if I'm starting from this orthonormal basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I've updated my answer.
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thank you, I did not know that this connection between orthonormal bases and special relativity could be made. It makes sense!
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Javier's answer is correct, but here's another way of seeing it: An observer's "local radial coordinate" $tilder$ and "local time coordinate" $tildet$ are defined such that the metric is (locally) $ds^2 = - dtildet^2 + dtilder^2$ (suppressing angular coordinates). It is evident that under this definition, $dtildet = dt sqrt1 - 2M/r $ and $d tilder = dr / sqrt1 - 2M/r$. Thus,
$$
-v = fracdtilderdtildet = frac11 - 2M/r fracdrdt.
$$
This implies that
$$
u^mu = fracdtdtau left( 1, fracdrdt , 0, 0 right) = fracdtdtau left( 1, -left(1 - frac2Mrright) v, 0, 0 right).
$$
Further requiring that $u^mu u_mu = -1$ then leads to
$$
fracdtdtau = sqrtfrac1(1 - 2M/r)(1 - v^2),
$$
which is equivalent to the expressions provided.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Although this is correct, one has to be careful, because the equations with the differentials don't necessarily define actual coordinate functions $tildet$ and $tilder$. The quotation marks around "local coordinates" are very important!
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer is more intuitive to me. The fact that local coordinates are equivalent to flat spacetime is only true exactly at point $p$ where the observer is, correct?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Michael. Just a small correction, $dt/dtau = (1-2M/r)^-1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$.
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "151"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f495383%2ffour-velocity-of-radially-infalling-gas-in-schwarzschild-metric%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The velocity $v$ is not $dr/dt$. What the paper says is
$vquad$ inward velocity of gas as measured by an observer at fixed $r$ in his local proper reference frame
This means that you need to build an orthonormal frame from the $partial/partial^mu$ vectors at a given spacetime point. Well, you can check that the vectors
$$mathbfe_hatt = frac1sqrt1-2M/r partial_t quad textand quad mathbfe_hatr = sqrt1 - 2M/r partial_r$$
are orthonormal, satisfying $mathbfe_hatt cdot mathbfe_hatt = -1$ and $mathbfe_hatr cdot mathbfe_hatr = 1$. In terms of these, the four-velocity is
$$mathbfu = fracysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatt - fracvysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatr = u^hatmu mathbfe_hatmu,$$
and we have that $v = -u^hatr/u^hatt$. Or, to put it another way, the four-velocity has the $mathbfu = (gamma, -gamma v)$ structure we expect from special relativity.
What if we want to go the other way and write down an expression for the four-velocity? We start with our expressions for the orthonormal basis vectors $mathbfe_hatmu$ and the four-velocity $mathbfu = u^hatt mathbfe_hatt + u^hatr mathbfe_hatr$. From the special relativistic formula $mathbfu = gamma(v) mathbfe_hatt - gamma(v) v mathbfe_hatr$ (which holds since we're in an orthonormal basis), we get that $u^hatt = gamma(v)$ and $u^hatr = -gamma(v) v$. Finally, going back to the $partial_mu$ basis, we find
$$mathbfu = fracgamma(v)sqrt1-2M/r partial_t - gamma(v) v sqrt1-2M/r partial_r.$$
This is the same as the given expression if we define $y = - mathbfu cdot partial_t = - g_tt u^t$, which works out to $y = gamma(v) sqrt1-2M/r$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did have a misconception about which velocity v is. I see how this leads to the expression in the paper, but could you explain how to get the u components in this basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I just replaced the $partial_mu$ vectors in terms of the $mathbfe_hatmu$, using that $partial_t = sqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_t$ and so on.
$endgroup$
– Javier
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how would I get the expression for the four-velocity in the first place? Where do $y$ and $v$ come from if I'm starting from this orthonormal basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I've updated my answer.
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thank you, I did not know that this connection between orthonormal bases and special relativity could be made. It makes sense!
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The velocity $v$ is not $dr/dt$. What the paper says is
$vquad$ inward velocity of gas as measured by an observer at fixed $r$ in his local proper reference frame
This means that you need to build an orthonormal frame from the $partial/partial^mu$ vectors at a given spacetime point. Well, you can check that the vectors
$$mathbfe_hatt = frac1sqrt1-2M/r partial_t quad textand quad mathbfe_hatr = sqrt1 - 2M/r partial_r$$
are orthonormal, satisfying $mathbfe_hatt cdot mathbfe_hatt = -1$ and $mathbfe_hatr cdot mathbfe_hatr = 1$. In terms of these, the four-velocity is
$$mathbfu = fracysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatt - fracvysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatr = u^hatmu mathbfe_hatmu,$$
and we have that $v = -u^hatr/u^hatt$. Or, to put it another way, the four-velocity has the $mathbfu = (gamma, -gamma v)$ structure we expect from special relativity.
What if we want to go the other way and write down an expression for the four-velocity? We start with our expressions for the orthonormal basis vectors $mathbfe_hatmu$ and the four-velocity $mathbfu = u^hatt mathbfe_hatt + u^hatr mathbfe_hatr$. From the special relativistic formula $mathbfu = gamma(v) mathbfe_hatt - gamma(v) v mathbfe_hatr$ (which holds since we're in an orthonormal basis), we get that $u^hatt = gamma(v)$ and $u^hatr = -gamma(v) v$. Finally, going back to the $partial_mu$ basis, we find
$$mathbfu = fracgamma(v)sqrt1-2M/r partial_t - gamma(v) v sqrt1-2M/r partial_r.$$
This is the same as the given expression if we define $y = - mathbfu cdot partial_t = - g_tt u^t$, which works out to $y = gamma(v) sqrt1-2M/r$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did have a misconception about which velocity v is. I see how this leads to the expression in the paper, but could you explain how to get the u components in this basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I just replaced the $partial_mu$ vectors in terms of the $mathbfe_hatmu$, using that $partial_t = sqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_t$ and so on.
$endgroup$
– Javier
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how would I get the expression for the four-velocity in the first place? Where do $y$ and $v$ come from if I'm starting from this orthonormal basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I've updated my answer.
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thank you, I did not know that this connection between orthonormal bases and special relativity could be made. It makes sense!
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The velocity $v$ is not $dr/dt$. What the paper says is
$vquad$ inward velocity of gas as measured by an observer at fixed $r$ in his local proper reference frame
This means that you need to build an orthonormal frame from the $partial/partial^mu$ vectors at a given spacetime point. Well, you can check that the vectors
$$mathbfe_hatt = frac1sqrt1-2M/r partial_t quad textand quad mathbfe_hatr = sqrt1 - 2M/r partial_r$$
are orthonormal, satisfying $mathbfe_hatt cdot mathbfe_hatt = -1$ and $mathbfe_hatr cdot mathbfe_hatr = 1$. In terms of these, the four-velocity is
$$mathbfu = fracysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatt - fracvysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatr = u^hatmu mathbfe_hatmu,$$
and we have that $v = -u^hatr/u^hatt$. Or, to put it another way, the four-velocity has the $mathbfu = (gamma, -gamma v)$ structure we expect from special relativity.
What if we want to go the other way and write down an expression for the four-velocity? We start with our expressions for the orthonormal basis vectors $mathbfe_hatmu$ and the four-velocity $mathbfu = u^hatt mathbfe_hatt + u^hatr mathbfe_hatr$. From the special relativistic formula $mathbfu = gamma(v) mathbfe_hatt - gamma(v) v mathbfe_hatr$ (which holds since we're in an orthonormal basis), we get that $u^hatt = gamma(v)$ and $u^hatr = -gamma(v) v$. Finally, going back to the $partial_mu$ basis, we find
$$mathbfu = fracgamma(v)sqrt1-2M/r partial_t - gamma(v) v sqrt1-2M/r partial_r.$$
This is the same as the given expression if we define $y = - mathbfu cdot partial_t = - g_tt u^t$, which works out to $y = gamma(v) sqrt1-2M/r$.
$endgroup$
The velocity $v$ is not $dr/dt$. What the paper says is
$vquad$ inward velocity of gas as measured by an observer at fixed $r$ in his local proper reference frame
This means that you need to build an orthonormal frame from the $partial/partial^mu$ vectors at a given spacetime point. Well, you can check that the vectors
$$mathbfe_hatt = frac1sqrt1-2M/r partial_t quad textand quad mathbfe_hatr = sqrt1 - 2M/r partial_r$$
are orthonormal, satisfying $mathbfe_hatt cdot mathbfe_hatt = -1$ and $mathbfe_hatr cdot mathbfe_hatr = 1$. In terms of these, the four-velocity is
$$mathbfu = fracysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatt - fracvysqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_hatr = u^hatmu mathbfe_hatmu,$$
and we have that $v = -u^hatr/u^hatt$. Or, to put it another way, the four-velocity has the $mathbfu = (gamma, -gamma v)$ structure we expect from special relativity.
What if we want to go the other way and write down an expression for the four-velocity? We start with our expressions for the orthonormal basis vectors $mathbfe_hatmu$ and the four-velocity $mathbfu = u^hatt mathbfe_hatt + u^hatr mathbfe_hatr$. From the special relativistic formula $mathbfu = gamma(v) mathbfe_hatt - gamma(v) v mathbfe_hatr$ (which holds since we're in an orthonormal basis), we get that $u^hatt = gamma(v)$ and $u^hatr = -gamma(v) v$. Finally, going back to the $partial_mu$ basis, we find
$$mathbfu = fracgamma(v)sqrt1-2M/r partial_t - gamma(v) v sqrt1-2M/r partial_r.$$
This is the same as the given expression if we define $y = - mathbfu cdot partial_t = - g_tt u^t$, which works out to $y = gamma(v) sqrt1-2M/r$.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
JavierJavier
15.5k8 gold badges46 silver badges84 bronze badges
15.5k8 gold badges46 silver badges84 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did have a misconception about which velocity v is. I see how this leads to the expression in the paper, but could you explain how to get the u components in this basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I just replaced the $partial_mu$ vectors in terms of the $mathbfe_hatmu$, using that $partial_t = sqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_t$ and so on.
$endgroup$
– Javier
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how would I get the expression for the four-velocity in the first place? Where do $y$ and $v$ come from if I'm starting from this orthonormal basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I've updated my answer.
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thank you, I did not know that this connection between orthonormal bases and special relativity could be made. It makes sense!
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did have a misconception about which velocity v is. I see how this leads to the expression in the paper, but could you explain how to get the u components in this basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I just replaced the $partial_mu$ vectors in terms of the $mathbfe_hatmu$, using that $partial_t = sqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_t$ and so on.
$endgroup$
– Javier
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how would I get the expression for the four-velocity in the first place? Where do $y$ and $v$ come from if I'm starting from this orthonormal basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I've updated my answer.
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thank you, I did not know that this connection between orthonormal bases and special relativity could be made. It makes sense!
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did have a misconception about which velocity v is. I see how this leads to the expression in the paper, but could you explain how to get the u components in this basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did have a misconception about which velocity v is. I see how this leads to the expression in the paper, but could you explain how to get the u components in this basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I just replaced the $partial_mu$ vectors in terms of the $mathbfe_hatmu$, using that $partial_t = sqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_t$ and so on.
$endgroup$
– Javier
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I just replaced the $partial_mu$ vectors in terms of the $mathbfe_hatmu$, using that $partial_t = sqrt1-2M/r mathbfe_t$ and so on.
$endgroup$
– Javier
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how would I get the expression for the four-velocity in the first place? Where do $y$ and $v$ come from if I'm starting from this orthonormal basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how would I get the expression for the four-velocity in the first place? Where do $y$ and $v$ come from if I'm starting from this orthonormal basis?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I've updated my answer.
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@SimonG. I've updated my answer.
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thank you, I did not know that this connection between orthonormal bases and special relativity could be made. It makes sense!
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thank you, I did not know that this connection between orthonormal bases and special relativity could be made. It makes sense!
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Javier's answer is correct, but here's another way of seeing it: An observer's "local radial coordinate" $tilder$ and "local time coordinate" $tildet$ are defined such that the metric is (locally) $ds^2 = - dtildet^2 + dtilder^2$ (suppressing angular coordinates). It is evident that under this definition, $dtildet = dt sqrt1 - 2M/r $ and $d tilder = dr / sqrt1 - 2M/r$. Thus,
$$
-v = fracdtilderdtildet = frac11 - 2M/r fracdrdt.
$$
This implies that
$$
u^mu = fracdtdtau left( 1, fracdrdt , 0, 0 right) = fracdtdtau left( 1, -left(1 - frac2Mrright) v, 0, 0 right).
$$
Further requiring that $u^mu u_mu = -1$ then leads to
$$
fracdtdtau = sqrtfrac1(1 - 2M/r)(1 - v^2),
$$
which is equivalent to the expressions provided.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Although this is correct, one has to be careful, because the equations with the differentials don't necessarily define actual coordinate functions $tildet$ and $tilder$. The quotation marks around "local coordinates" are very important!
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer is more intuitive to me. The fact that local coordinates are equivalent to flat spacetime is only true exactly at point $p$ where the observer is, correct?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Michael. Just a small correction, $dt/dtau = (1-2M/r)^-1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$.
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Javier's answer is correct, but here's another way of seeing it: An observer's "local radial coordinate" $tilder$ and "local time coordinate" $tildet$ are defined such that the metric is (locally) $ds^2 = - dtildet^2 + dtilder^2$ (suppressing angular coordinates). It is evident that under this definition, $dtildet = dt sqrt1 - 2M/r $ and $d tilder = dr / sqrt1 - 2M/r$. Thus,
$$
-v = fracdtilderdtildet = frac11 - 2M/r fracdrdt.
$$
This implies that
$$
u^mu = fracdtdtau left( 1, fracdrdt , 0, 0 right) = fracdtdtau left( 1, -left(1 - frac2Mrright) v, 0, 0 right).
$$
Further requiring that $u^mu u_mu = -1$ then leads to
$$
fracdtdtau = sqrtfrac1(1 - 2M/r)(1 - v^2),
$$
which is equivalent to the expressions provided.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Although this is correct, one has to be careful, because the equations with the differentials don't necessarily define actual coordinate functions $tildet$ and $tilder$. The quotation marks around "local coordinates" are very important!
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer is more intuitive to me. The fact that local coordinates are equivalent to flat spacetime is only true exactly at point $p$ where the observer is, correct?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Michael. Just a small correction, $dt/dtau = (1-2M/r)^-1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$.
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Javier's answer is correct, but here's another way of seeing it: An observer's "local radial coordinate" $tilder$ and "local time coordinate" $tildet$ are defined such that the metric is (locally) $ds^2 = - dtildet^2 + dtilder^2$ (suppressing angular coordinates). It is evident that under this definition, $dtildet = dt sqrt1 - 2M/r $ and $d tilder = dr / sqrt1 - 2M/r$. Thus,
$$
-v = fracdtilderdtildet = frac11 - 2M/r fracdrdt.
$$
This implies that
$$
u^mu = fracdtdtau left( 1, fracdrdt , 0, 0 right) = fracdtdtau left( 1, -left(1 - frac2Mrright) v, 0, 0 right).
$$
Further requiring that $u^mu u_mu = -1$ then leads to
$$
fracdtdtau = sqrtfrac1(1 - 2M/r)(1 - v^2),
$$
which is equivalent to the expressions provided.
$endgroup$
Javier's answer is correct, but here's another way of seeing it: An observer's "local radial coordinate" $tilder$ and "local time coordinate" $tildet$ are defined such that the metric is (locally) $ds^2 = - dtildet^2 + dtilder^2$ (suppressing angular coordinates). It is evident that under this definition, $dtildet = dt sqrt1 - 2M/r $ and $d tilder = dr / sqrt1 - 2M/r$. Thus,
$$
-v = fracdtilderdtildet = frac11 - 2M/r fracdrdt.
$$
This implies that
$$
u^mu = fracdtdtau left( 1, fracdrdt , 0, 0 right) = fracdtdtau left( 1, -left(1 - frac2Mrright) v, 0, 0 right).
$$
Further requiring that $u^mu u_mu = -1$ then leads to
$$
fracdtdtau = sqrtfrac1(1 - 2M/r)(1 - v^2),
$$
which is equivalent to the expressions provided.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Michael SeifertMichael Seifert
17.7k2 gold badges33 silver badges60 bronze badges
17.7k2 gold badges33 silver badges60 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Although this is correct, one has to be careful, because the equations with the differentials don't necessarily define actual coordinate functions $tildet$ and $tilder$. The quotation marks around "local coordinates" are very important!
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer is more intuitive to me. The fact that local coordinates are equivalent to flat spacetime is only true exactly at point $p$ where the observer is, correct?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Michael. Just a small correction, $dt/dtau = (1-2M/r)^-1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$.
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Although this is correct, one has to be careful, because the equations with the differentials don't necessarily define actual coordinate functions $tildet$ and $tilder$. The quotation marks around "local coordinates" are very important!
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer is more intuitive to me. The fact that local coordinates are equivalent to flat spacetime is only true exactly at point $p$ where the observer is, correct?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Michael. Just a small correction, $dt/dtau = (1-2M/r)^-1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$.
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Although this is correct, one has to be careful, because the equations with the differentials don't necessarily define actual coordinate functions $tildet$ and $tilder$. The quotation marks around "local coordinates" are very important!
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
Although this is correct, one has to be careful, because the equations with the differentials don't necessarily define actual coordinate functions $tildet$ and $tilder$. The quotation marks around "local coordinates" are very important!
$endgroup$
– Javier
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer is more intuitive to me. The fact that local coordinates are equivalent to flat spacetime is only true exactly at point $p$ where the observer is, correct?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer is more intuitive to me. The fact that local coordinates are equivalent to flat spacetime is only true exactly at point $p$ where the observer is, correct?
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Michael. Just a small correction, $dt/dtau = (1-2M/r)^-1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$.
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Michael. Just a small correction, $dt/dtau = (1-2M/r)^-1/2(1-v^2)^-1/2$.
$endgroup$
– Simon G.
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f495383%2ffour-velocity-of-radially-infalling-gas-in-schwarzschild-metric%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown