How does LIDAR avoid getting confused in an environment being scanned by hundreds of other LIDAR?
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How does LIDAR avoid getting confused in an environment being scanned by hundreds of other LIDAR?
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$begingroup$
(Meta: I do not know an appropriate place for this on Stack Exchange. There does not appear to be any groups related to autonomous driving technology and computer 3D vision / perception systems.)
For self driving vehicles using 3D depth perception LIDAR on a highway with hundreds of other vehicles also using various other LIDAR sweep beam or spot-field (kinect style) emission scanners, how is it able to distinguish its own signal returns, from the scanning being done by the other systems?
For an extremely large multilane highway, or complex multi-way intersections such emissions can be seen in all directions, covering all surfaces, and there is no way to avoid detecting the beam emissions from other scanners.
This seems to be the main technical hurdle for implementing LIDAR for autonomous driving vehicles. It does not matter if it works perfectly if it’s the only vehicle on the road using LIDAR.
The real question is how it deals with being inundated with spurious signals from similar systems in a future scenario where LIDAR is present on every vehicle, potentially with multiple scanners per vehicle and scanning in all directions around each vehicle.
Is it capable of functioning normally, can it somehow distinguish its own scanning and reject others, or in the worst case can it fail completely and just report garbage data that is useless, and it doesn’t know that it’s reporting garbage data?
This at least seems to be a strong case for having passive 3D computer vision that’s just based on natural light and stereo camera depth integration, as is done in the human brain.
radar
asked 8 hours ago
Dale MahalkoDale Mahalko
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
$endgroup$
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
(Meta: I do not know an appropriate place for this on Stack Exchange. There does not appear to be any groups related to autonomous driving technology and computer 3D vision / perception systems.)
For self driving vehicles using 3D depth perception LIDAR on a highway with hundreds of other vehicles also using various other LIDAR sweep beam or spot-field (kinect style) emission scanners, how is it able to distinguish its own signal returns, from the scanning being done by the other systems?
For an extremely large multilane highway, or complex multi-way intersections such emissions can be seen in all directions, covering all surfaces, and there is no way to avoid detecting the beam emissions from other scanners.
This seems to be the main technical hurdle for implementing LIDAR for autonomous driving vehicles. It does not matter if it works perfectly if it’s the only vehicle on the road using LIDAR.
The real question is how it deals with being inundated with spurious signals from similar systems in a future scenario where LIDAR is present on every vehicle, potentially with multiple scanners per vehicle and scanning in all directions around each vehicle.
Is it capable of functioning normally, can it somehow distinguish its own scanning and reject others, or in the worst case can it fail completely and just report garbage data that is useless, and it doesn’t know that it’s reporting garbage data?
This at least seems to be a strong case for having passive 3D computer vision that’s just based on natural light and stereo camera depth integration, as is done in the human brain.
radar
asked 8 hours ago
Dale MahalkoDale Mahalko
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Or you know...the eye hazard. As for distinguishing your own return signal from others, you could do some modulation or auto-correlation. I'm not sure how compatible that is with time-of-flight schemes but it would increase processing in something that already needs to differentiate extremely small time differences.
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How do cellphones all talk on the same frequency?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@VoltageSpike This is going to rapidly turn into a extended discussion, but until we have optical antennas, both lasers and photodiodes much more limited in terms of wavelength flexibility, phase information, unlike a cell phone antenna so there are a lot less tricks you can play with the signal. I think you might only be able to mess around with amplitude modulation and not much else. No frequency or phase modulation of any sort (I think).
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen, I'm talking about modulating the subcarrier, AM, PM, FM, whatever.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen Take a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_modulator, the units I used were not near that fancy, but they would do AM and PM with a bandwidth in the 10's of Khz.
$endgroup$
– GB - AE7OO
4 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
(Meta: I do not know an appropriate place for this on Stack Exchange. There does not appear to be any groups related to autonomous driving technology and computer 3D vision / perception systems.)
For self driving vehicles using 3D depth perception LIDAR on a highway with hundreds of other vehicles also using various other LIDAR sweep beam or spot-field (kinect style) emission scanners, how is it able to distinguish its own signal returns, from the scanning being done by the other systems?
For an extremely large multilane highway, or complex multi-way intersections such emissions can be seen in all directions, covering all surfaces, and there is no way to avoid detecting the beam emissions from other scanners.
This seems to be the main technical hurdle for implementing LIDAR for autonomous driving vehicles. It does not matter if it works perfectly if it’s the only vehicle on the road using LIDAR.
The real question is how it deals with being inundated with spurious signals from similar systems in a future scenario where LIDAR is present on every vehicle, potentially with multiple scanners per vehicle and scanning in all directions around each vehicle.
Is it capable of functioning normally, can it somehow distinguish its own scanning and reject others, or in the worst case can it fail completely and just report garbage data that is useless, and it doesn’t know that it’s reporting garbage data?
This at least seems to be a strong case for having passive 3D computer vision that’s just based on natural light and stereo camera depth integration, as is done in the human brain.
radar
asked 8 hours ago
Dale MahalkoDale Mahalko
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
$endgroup$
(Meta: I do not know an appropriate place for this on Stack Exchange. There does not appear to be any groups related to autonomous driving technology and computer 3D vision / perception systems.)
For self driving vehicles using 3D depth perception LIDAR on a highway with hundreds of other vehicles also using various other LIDAR sweep beam or spot-field (kinect style) emission scanners, how is it able to distinguish its own signal returns, from the scanning being done by the other systems?
For an extremely large multilane highway, or complex multi-way intersections such emissions can be seen in all directions, covering all surfaces, and there is no way to avoid detecting the beam emissions from other scanners.
This seems to be the main technical hurdle for implementing LIDAR for autonomous driving vehicles. It does not matter if it works perfectly if it’s the only vehicle on the road using LIDAR.
The real question is how it deals with being inundated with spurious signals from similar systems in a future scenario where LIDAR is present on every vehicle, potentially with multiple scanners per vehicle and scanning in all directions around each vehicle.
Is it capable of functioning normally, can it somehow distinguish its own scanning and reject others, or in the worst case can it fail completely and just report garbage data that is useless, and it doesn’t know that it’s reporting garbage data?
This at least seems to be a strong case for having passive 3D computer vision that’s just based on natural light and stereo camera depth integration, as is done in the human brain.
radar
radar
asked 8 hours ago
Dale MahalkoDale Mahalko
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Dale MahalkoDale Mahalko
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Dale MahalkoDale Mahalko
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Dale MahalkoDale Mahalko
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Dale MahalkoDale Mahalko
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
9581 gold badge7 silver badges9 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Or you know...the eye hazard. As for distinguishing your own return signal from others, you could do some modulation or auto-correlation. I'm not sure how compatible that is with time-of-flight schemes but it would increase processing in something that already needs to differentiate extremely small time differences.
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How do cellphones all talk on the same frequency?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@VoltageSpike This is going to rapidly turn into a extended discussion, but until we have optical antennas, both lasers and photodiodes much more limited in terms of wavelength flexibility, phase information, unlike a cell phone antenna so there are a lot less tricks you can play with the signal. I think you might only be able to mess around with amplitude modulation and not much else. No frequency or phase modulation of any sort (I think).
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen, I'm talking about modulating the subcarrier, AM, PM, FM, whatever.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen Take a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_modulator, the units I used were not near that fancy, but they would do AM and PM with a bandwidth in the 10's of Khz.
$endgroup$
– GB - AE7OO
4 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
Or you know...the eye hazard. As for distinguishing your own return signal from others, you could do some modulation or auto-correlation. I'm not sure how compatible that is with time-of-flight schemes but it would increase processing in something that already needs to differentiate extremely small time differences.
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How do cellphones all talk on the same frequency?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@VoltageSpike This is going to rapidly turn into a extended discussion, but until we have optical antennas, both lasers and photodiodes much more limited in terms of wavelength flexibility, phase information, unlike a cell phone antenna so there are a lot less tricks you can play with the signal. I think you might only be able to mess around with amplitude modulation and not much else. No frequency or phase modulation of any sort (I think).
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen, I'm talking about modulating the subcarrier, AM, PM, FM, whatever.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen Take a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_modulator, the units I used were not near that fancy, but they would do AM and PM with a bandwidth in the 10's of Khz.
$endgroup$
– GB - AE7OO
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Or you know...the eye hazard. As for distinguishing your own return signal from others, you could do some modulation or auto-correlation. I'm not sure how compatible that is with time-of-flight schemes but it would increase processing in something that already needs to differentiate extremely small time differences.
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Or you know...the eye hazard. As for distinguishing your own return signal from others, you could do some modulation or auto-correlation. I'm not sure how compatible that is with time-of-flight schemes but it would increase processing in something that already needs to differentiate extremely small time differences.
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How do cellphones all talk on the same frequency?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How do cellphones all talk on the same frequency?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@VoltageSpike This is going to rapidly turn into a extended discussion, but until we have optical antennas, both lasers and photodiodes much more limited in terms of wavelength flexibility, phase information, unlike a cell phone antenna so there are a lot less tricks you can play with the signal. I think you might only be able to mess around with amplitude modulation and not much else. No frequency or phase modulation of any sort (I think).
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@VoltageSpike This is going to rapidly turn into a extended discussion, but until we have optical antennas, both lasers and photodiodes much more limited in terms of wavelength flexibility, phase information, unlike a cell phone antenna so there are a lot less tricks you can play with the signal. I think you might only be able to mess around with amplitude modulation and not much else. No frequency or phase modulation of any sort (I think).
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen, I'm talking about modulating the subcarrier, AM, PM, FM, whatever.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen, I'm talking about modulating the subcarrier, AM, PM, FM, whatever.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen Take a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_modulator, the units I used were not near that fancy, but they would do AM and PM with a bandwidth in the 10's of Khz.
$endgroup$
– GB - AE7OO
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen Take a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_modulator, the units I used were not near that fancy, but they would do AM and PM with a bandwidth in the 10's of Khz.
$endgroup$
– GB - AE7OO
4 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Depends on the LIDAR. My experience with it is out of date (over 10 years), but I cannot imagine that the basics have changed that much.
Most will be using a form of lock in to discriminate their signals. They treat other LIDARs as noise just as they do anything that is not locked to their signal. While you don't have the same frequency agility that a radar does, you do have the ability to modulate your carrier using the many forms of modulation. They can definitely change modulation schema as required to find the least noise.
A modern DSP version of a Lock in Amplifier or the equivalent would be used at minimum.
answered 6 hours ago
GB - AE7OOGB - AE7OO
1969 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Commercial LIDAR units modulate the light with a very long pseudo-random sequence.
The modulation is primarily to (1) have a modulation for determining distance and (2) to avoid interference with ambient sources of DC and AC light.
The long sequence makes it unlikely that any other source, even a modulated one like another LIDAR, will line up and interfere.
answered 40 mins ago
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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2 Answers
2
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2 Answers
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active
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$begingroup$
Depends on the LIDAR. My experience with it is out of date (over 10 years), but I cannot imagine that the basics have changed that much.
Most will be using a form of lock in to discriminate their signals. They treat other LIDARs as noise just as they do anything that is not locked to their signal. While you don't have the same frequency agility that a radar does, you do have the ability to modulate your carrier using the many forms of modulation. They can definitely change modulation schema as required to find the least noise.
A modern DSP version of a Lock in Amplifier or the equivalent would be used at minimum.
answered 6 hours ago
GB - AE7OOGB - AE7OO
1969 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Depends on the LIDAR. My experience with it is out of date (over 10 years), but I cannot imagine that the basics have changed that much.
Most will be using a form of lock in to discriminate their signals. They treat other LIDARs as noise just as they do anything that is not locked to their signal. While you don't have the same frequency agility that a radar does, you do have the ability to modulate your carrier using the many forms of modulation. They can definitely change modulation schema as required to find the least noise.
A modern DSP version of a Lock in Amplifier or the equivalent would be used at minimum.
answered 6 hours ago
GB - AE7OOGB - AE7OO
1969 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Depends on the LIDAR. My experience with it is out of date (over 10 years), but I cannot imagine that the basics have changed that much.
Most will be using a form of lock in to discriminate their signals. They treat other LIDARs as noise just as they do anything that is not locked to their signal. While you don't have the same frequency agility that a radar does, you do have the ability to modulate your carrier using the many forms of modulation. They can definitely change modulation schema as required to find the least noise.
A modern DSP version of a Lock in Amplifier or the equivalent would be used at minimum.
answered 6 hours ago
GB - AE7OOGB - AE7OO
1969 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Depends on the LIDAR. My experience with it is out of date (over 10 years), but I cannot imagine that the basics have changed that much.
Most will be using a form of lock in to discriminate their signals. They treat other LIDARs as noise just as they do anything that is not locked to their signal. While you don't have the same frequency agility that a radar does, you do have the ability to modulate your carrier using the many forms of modulation. They can definitely change modulation schema as required to find the least noise.
A modern DSP version of a Lock in Amplifier or the equivalent would be used at minimum.
answered 6 hours ago
GB - AE7OOGB - AE7OO
1969 bronze badges
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
GB - AE7OOGB - AE7OO
1969 bronze badges
answered 6 hours ago
GB - AE7OOGB - AE7OO
1969 bronze badges
answered 6 hours ago
GB - AE7OOGB - AE7OO
1969 bronze badges
1969 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Commercial LIDAR units modulate the light with a very long pseudo-random sequence.
The modulation is primarily to (1) have a modulation for determining distance and (2) to avoid interference with ambient sources of DC and AC light.
The long sequence makes it unlikely that any other source, even a modulated one like another LIDAR, will line up and interfere.
answered 40 mins ago
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Commercial LIDAR units modulate the light with a very long pseudo-random sequence.
The modulation is primarily to (1) have a modulation for determining distance and (2) to avoid interference with ambient sources of DC and AC light.
The long sequence makes it unlikely that any other source, even a modulated one like another LIDAR, will line up and interfere.
answered 40 mins ago
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Commercial LIDAR units modulate the light with a very long pseudo-random sequence.
The modulation is primarily to (1) have a modulation for determining distance and (2) to avoid interference with ambient sources of DC and AC light.
The long sequence makes it unlikely that any other source, even a modulated one like another LIDAR, will line up and interfere.
answered 40 mins ago
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Commercial LIDAR units modulate the light with a very long pseudo-random sequence.
The modulation is primarily to (1) have a modulation for determining distance and (2) to avoid interference with ambient sources of DC and AC light.
The long sequence makes it unlikely that any other source, even a modulated one like another LIDAR, will line up and interfere.
answered 40 mins ago
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
answered 40 mins ago
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
answered 40 mins ago
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
answered 40 mins ago
Bob JacobsenBob Jacobsen
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
1,3275 silver badges9 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Or you know...the eye hazard. As for distinguishing your own return signal from others, you could do some modulation or auto-correlation. I'm not sure how compatible that is with time-of-flight schemes but it would increase processing in something that already needs to differentiate extremely small time differences.
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How do cellphones all talk on the same frequency?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@VoltageSpike This is going to rapidly turn into a extended discussion, but until we have optical antennas, both lasers and photodiodes much more limited in terms of wavelength flexibility, phase information, unlike a cell phone antenna so there are a lot less tricks you can play with the signal. I think you might only be able to mess around with amplitude modulation and not much else. No frequency or phase modulation of any sort (I think).
$endgroup$
– DKNguyen
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen, I'm talking about modulating the subcarrier, AM, PM, FM, whatever.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@DKNguyen Take a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_modulator, the units I used were not near that fancy, but they would do AM and PM with a bandwidth in the 10's of Khz.
$endgroup$
– GB - AE7OO
4 hours ago