Doesn't the concept of marginal utility speak to a cardinal utility function?Finding demand function given a utility min(x,y) functionWhen treating a relative, normalized utility function as a pmf, what is the interpretation of Shannon entropy or Shannon information?A term for utility functions based on the max operatorBads utility functionConfusions about calculations in Utility Theory PaperImplications of differentiable demand function on the utility function propertiesWhat is the concept of ordinal utility?Is utility in neoclassical economics a circular argument/concept?If an ordinal-scaled utility function is defined via strictly increasing transformation, how can it represent a case of indifference?

I was given someone else's visa, stamped in my passport

Does Q ever actually lie?

How to save money by shopping at a variety of grocery stores?

Padding a column of lists

Necessity of tenure for lifetime academic research

Can a system of three stars exist?

How do I get my neighbour to stop disturbing with loud music?

I failed to respond to a potential advisor

Questions about Noun+が+Adjective

Turn off Google Chrome's Notification for "Flash Player will no longer be supported after December 2020."

'spazieren' - walking in a silly and affected manner?

How were US credit cards verified in-store in the 1980's?

Modeling an M1A2 Smoke Grenade Launcher

My colleague treats me like he's my boss, yet we're on the same level

Does the telecom provider need physical access to the SIM card to clone it?

Moscow SVO airport, how to avoid scam taxis without pre-booking?

Can I leave a large suitcase at TPE during a 4-hour layover, and pick it up 4.5 days later when I come back to TPE on my way to Taipei downtown?

Moving DNS hosting for Active site to Route 53 - with G Suite MX TTL of 1 week

Calculate Landau's function

Can UV radiation be safe for the skin?

An idiom for “Until you punish the offender, they will not give up offenses”

How is the casino term "a high roller" commonly expressed in German?

How to investigate an unknown 1.5GB file named "sudo" in my Linux home directory?

Why 50 Ω termination results in less noise than 1 MΩ termination on the scope reading?



Doesn't the concept of marginal utility speak to a cardinal utility function?


Finding demand function given a utility min(x,y) functionWhen treating a relative, normalized utility function as a pmf, what is the interpretation of Shannon entropy or Shannon information?A term for utility functions based on the max operatorBads utility functionConfusions about calculations in Utility Theory PaperImplications of differentiable demand function on the utility function propertiesWhat is the concept of ordinal utility?Is utility in neoclassical economics a circular argument/concept?If an ordinal-scaled utility function is defined via strictly increasing transformation, how can it represent a case of indifference?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








5












$begingroup$


When we differentiate the utility function with respect to some input $x_i$, we get a number that tells us how "fast" the utility function is changing at some point with respect to $x_i$. Doesn't that mean that when we compare marginal utilities, we are comparing with something that is based on the structure of the numeric output of the utility function, which shouldn't be the case since it's ordinal?



I know I'm missing something here intuitively, but I can't seem to figure out what it is.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




















    5












    $begingroup$


    When we differentiate the utility function with respect to some input $x_i$, we get a number that tells us how "fast" the utility function is changing at some point with respect to $x_i$. Doesn't that mean that when we compare marginal utilities, we are comparing with something that is based on the structure of the numeric output of the utility function, which shouldn't be the case since it's ordinal?



    I know I'm missing something here intuitively, but I can't seem to figure out what it is.










    share|improve this question









    $endgroup$
















      5












      5








      5


      0



      $begingroup$


      When we differentiate the utility function with respect to some input $x_i$, we get a number that tells us how "fast" the utility function is changing at some point with respect to $x_i$. Doesn't that mean that when we compare marginal utilities, we are comparing with something that is based on the structure of the numeric output of the utility function, which shouldn't be the case since it's ordinal?



      I know I'm missing something here intuitively, but I can't seem to figure out what it is.










      share|improve this question









      $endgroup$




      When we differentiate the utility function with respect to some input $x_i$, we get a number that tells us how "fast" the utility function is changing at some point with respect to $x_i$. Doesn't that mean that when we compare marginal utilities, we are comparing with something that is based on the structure of the numeric output of the utility function, which shouldn't be the case since it's ordinal?



      I know I'm missing something here intuitively, but I can't seem to figure out what it is.







      utility






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 12 hours ago









      VastingVasting

      2018 bronze badges




      2018 bronze badges























          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          2













          $begingroup$

          To the pure ordinalist who believes that preferences are purely ordinal, the concept of marginal utility (MU) has no meaning. (And a fortiori, the concept of diminishing MU also has no meaning.)



          However, the concept of the marginal rate of substitution (MRS) does have meaning.



          In the course of our work, we may compute something that we call MU. But to the pure ordinalist, any such number found has no meaning in and of itself.




          Example. Say an individual's preferences $succsim$ over two goods $A$ and $B$ can be represented by the utility function $U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ defined by $$U(A,B)=AB.$$



          The intermediate microeconomics student may then carry out these computations:



          $$MU_A=fracpartial Upartial A = B.$$



          $$MU_B=fracpartial Upartial B = A.$$



          $$MRS = fracMU_AMU_B=fracBA.$$



          The above says that if, for example, my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$MU_A=B=1000text and MU_B=A=200.$$ However, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



          The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$MRS=fracBA=frac1000200=5text units of B.$$



          To the pure ordinalist, the above reasoning is completely legitimate, so long as one assigns meaning only to MRS. What's illegitimate is to assign any meaning to $MU_A=B$ or $MU_B=A$.



          The pure ordinalist knows that if $hat U$ is a strictly increasing transformation of $U$, then $hat U$ is also a utility representation of $succsim$. So, for example, if $hat U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ is defined by $$hat U(A,B)=2AB,$$ then $hat U$ also represents $succsim$.



          However, with $hat U$, our computations seem to differ slightly from before:



          $$Mhat U_A=fracpartial hat Upartial A = 2B.$$



          $$Mhat U_B=fracpartial hat Upartial B = 2A.$$



          $$hatMRS = fracMhat U_AMhat U_B=frac2B2A=fracBA.$$



          Any conclusions we arrive at with the new utility representation $hat U$ are the same as before.



          If again my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$Mhat U_A=2B=2000text and Mhat U_B=2A=400.$$ However and again, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



          The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$hatMRS=frac2B2A=frac2000400=5text units of B.$$



          The quantity MU by itself has no meaning. Confusion arises only when one attaches meaning to MU and wonders how for example it is that $$Mhat U_A = 2MU_A,$$ and what the above equation means. (Answer: It means nothing.)



          Out of convenience, the intermediate microeconomics student will often compute something called $MU_A$ and $MU_B$ and these can often be evaluated as actual numbers. But on their own, these numbers have no meaning (to the pure ordinalist). Only the ratio of the two quantities has any meaning: $$MRS=fracMU_AMU_B.$$




          Some quotes. Hicks (1939):




          We have now to undertake a purge, rejecting all concepts which are tainted by quantitative utility, and replacing them, so far as they need to be replaced, by concepts which have no such implication.



          The first victim must evidently be marginal utility itself. If total utility is arbitrary, so is marginal utility. ...



          The second victim (a more serious one this time) must be the principle of Diminishing Marginal Utility. If marginal utility has no exact sense, diminishing marginal utility can have no exact sense either.




          Dittmer (2005, emphasis added):




          Many introductory microeconomics textbook authors derive the law of demand from the assumption of diminishing marginal utility. Authors of intermediate and graduate textbooks derive demand from diminishing marginal rate of substitution and ordinal preferences. These approaches are not interchangeable; diminishing marginal utility for all goods is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for diminishing marginal rate of substitution, and the assumption of diminishing marginal utility is inconsistent with the assumption of ordinal preferences.







          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$






















            0













            $begingroup$

            What matters is not the utility function but the indifference sets. They produce an ordering of the outcomes. This ordering is a total order - reflexive, transitive, antisymmetric and total. If some conditions are satisfied we obtain indifference sets in the form of the the usual indifference curves. A sufficient condition for this is that the relationship is monotonic ($a > b Rightarrow a$ is preferred to $b$). Only after we have indifference curves do we get to speak about utility. A utility function is a mere representation of a particular partition of the outcomes into indifference curves. This is called utility representation of preferences.



            Note that we are talking about marginal utility only when we are looking for the solution of the consumer choice problem. In this case we are not interested in the utility function in of itself. We only use the fact that a differentiable utility function with nice properties correctly represents the underlying indifference curves. This allows us to use the toolbox of mathematical optimization to find the optimal bundle.



            A good example for the fact that the utility function is only a reformulation of the initial question, determined by the indifference curves, is the case of perfect comlpements - you have indifference curves, you have a set of utility representations for this indifference curves and you never talk about marginal utility in this case. As it is either zero or infinite, it is certainly useless to apply the utility representation to solve the consumer's problem here, but the consumer's problem still exists and has a well-defined solution.



            Thus yes the utility function is cardinal, but the local ordering of preferences in a neighborhood of a bundle, which is what the marginal utility describes, stems from the indifference curves and is not caused by the cardinality of the utility function.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$

















              Your Answer








              StackExchange.ready(function()
              var channelOptions =
              tags: "".split(" "),
              id: "591"
              ;
              initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

              StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
              // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
              if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
              StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
              createEditor();
              );

              else
              createEditor();

              );

              function createEditor()
              StackExchange.prepareEditor(
              heartbeatType: 'answer',
              autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
              convertImagesToLinks: false,
              noModals: true,
              showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
              reputationToPostImages: null,
              bindNavPrevention: true,
              postfix: "",
              imageUploader:
              brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
              contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
              allowUrls: true
              ,
              noCode: true, onDemand: true,
              discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
              ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
              );



              );













              draft saved

              draft discarded


















              StackExchange.ready(
              function ()
              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2feconomics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f30713%2fdoesnt-the-concept-of-marginal-utility-speak-to-a-cardinal-utility-function%23new-answer', 'question_page');

              );

              Post as a guest















              Required, but never shown

























              2 Answers
              2






              active

              oldest

              votes








              2 Answers
              2






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              2













              $begingroup$

              To the pure ordinalist who believes that preferences are purely ordinal, the concept of marginal utility (MU) has no meaning. (And a fortiori, the concept of diminishing MU also has no meaning.)



              However, the concept of the marginal rate of substitution (MRS) does have meaning.



              In the course of our work, we may compute something that we call MU. But to the pure ordinalist, any such number found has no meaning in and of itself.




              Example. Say an individual's preferences $succsim$ over two goods $A$ and $B$ can be represented by the utility function $U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ defined by $$U(A,B)=AB.$$



              The intermediate microeconomics student may then carry out these computations:



              $$MU_A=fracpartial Upartial A = B.$$



              $$MU_B=fracpartial Upartial B = A.$$



              $$MRS = fracMU_AMU_B=fracBA.$$



              The above says that if, for example, my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$MU_A=B=1000text and MU_B=A=200.$$ However, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



              The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$MRS=fracBA=frac1000200=5text units of B.$$



              To the pure ordinalist, the above reasoning is completely legitimate, so long as one assigns meaning only to MRS. What's illegitimate is to assign any meaning to $MU_A=B$ or $MU_B=A$.



              The pure ordinalist knows that if $hat U$ is a strictly increasing transformation of $U$, then $hat U$ is also a utility representation of $succsim$. So, for example, if $hat U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ is defined by $$hat U(A,B)=2AB,$$ then $hat U$ also represents $succsim$.



              However, with $hat U$, our computations seem to differ slightly from before:



              $$Mhat U_A=fracpartial hat Upartial A = 2B.$$



              $$Mhat U_B=fracpartial hat Upartial B = 2A.$$



              $$hatMRS = fracMhat U_AMhat U_B=frac2B2A=fracBA.$$



              Any conclusions we arrive at with the new utility representation $hat U$ are the same as before.



              If again my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$Mhat U_A=2B=2000text and Mhat U_B=2A=400.$$ However and again, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



              The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$hatMRS=frac2B2A=frac2000400=5text units of B.$$



              The quantity MU by itself has no meaning. Confusion arises only when one attaches meaning to MU and wonders how for example it is that $$Mhat U_A = 2MU_A,$$ and what the above equation means. (Answer: It means nothing.)



              Out of convenience, the intermediate microeconomics student will often compute something called $MU_A$ and $MU_B$ and these can often be evaluated as actual numbers. But on their own, these numbers have no meaning (to the pure ordinalist). Only the ratio of the two quantities has any meaning: $$MRS=fracMU_AMU_B.$$




              Some quotes. Hicks (1939):




              We have now to undertake a purge, rejecting all concepts which are tainted by quantitative utility, and replacing them, so far as they need to be replaced, by concepts which have no such implication.



              The first victim must evidently be marginal utility itself. If total utility is arbitrary, so is marginal utility. ...



              The second victim (a more serious one this time) must be the principle of Diminishing Marginal Utility. If marginal utility has no exact sense, diminishing marginal utility can have no exact sense either.




              Dittmer (2005, emphasis added):




              Many introductory microeconomics textbook authors derive the law of demand from the assumption of diminishing marginal utility. Authors of intermediate and graduate textbooks derive demand from diminishing marginal rate of substitution and ordinal preferences. These approaches are not interchangeable; diminishing marginal utility for all goods is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for diminishing marginal rate of substitution, and the assumption of diminishing marginal utility is inconsistent with the assumption of ordinal preferences.







              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



















                2













                $begingroup$

                To the pure ordinalist who believes that preferences are purely ordinal, the concept of marginal utility (MU) has no meaning. (And a fortiori, the concept of diminishing MU also has no meaning.)



                However, the concept of the marginal rate of substitution (MRS) does have meaning.



                In the course of our work, we may compute something that we call MU. But to the pure ordinalist, any such number found has no meaning in and of itself.




                Example. Say an individual's preferences $succsim$ over two goods $A$ and $B$ can be represented by the utility function $U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ defined by $$U(A,B)=AB.$$



                The intermediate microeconomics student may then carry out these computations:



                $$MU_A=fracpartial Upartial A = B.$$



                $$MU_B=fracpartial Upartial B = A.$$



                $$MRS = fracMU_AMU_B=fracBA.$$



                The above says that if, for example, my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$MU_A=B=1000text and MU_B=A=200.$$ However, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



                The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$MRS=fracBA=frac1000200=5text units of B.$$



                To the pure ordinalist, the above reasoning is completely legitimate, so long as one assigns meaning only to MRS. What's illegitimate is to assign any meaning to $MU_A=B$ or $MU_B=A$.



                The pure ordinalist knows that if $hat U$ is a strictly increasing transformation of $U$, then $hat U$ is also a utility representation of $succsim$. So, for example, if $hat U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ is defined by $$hat U(A,B)=2AB,$$ then $hat U$ also represents $succsim$.



                However, with $hat U$, our computations seem to differ slightly from before:



                $$Mhat U_A=fracpartial hat Upartial A = 2B.$$



                $$Mhat U_B=fracpartial hat Upartial B = 2A.$$



                $$hatMRS = fracMhat U_AMhat U_B=frac2B2A=fracBA.$$



                Any conclusions we arrive at with the new utility representation $hat U$ are the same as before.



                If again my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$Mhat U_A=2B=2000text and Mhat U_B=2A=400.$$ However and again, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



                The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$hatMRS=frac2B2A=frac2000400=5text units of B.$$



                The quantity MU by itself has no meaning. Confusion arises only when one attaches meaning to MU and wonders how for example it is that $$Mhat U_A = 2MU_A,$$ and what the above equation means. (Answer: It means nothing.)



                Out of convenience, the intermediate microeconomics student will often compute something called $MU_A$ and $MU_B$ and these can often be evaluated as actual numbers. But on their own, these numbers have no meaning (to the pure ordinalist). Only the ratio of the two quantities has any meaning: $$MRS=fracMU_AMU_B.$$




                Some quotes. Hicks (1939):




                We have now to undertake a purge, rejecting all concepts which are tainted by quantitative utility, and replacing them, so far as they need to be replaced, by concepts which have no such implication.



                The first victim must evidently be marginal utility itself. If total utility is arbitrary, so is marginal utility. ...



                The second victim (a more serious one this time) must be the principle of Diminishing Marginal Utility. If marginal utility has no exact sense, diminishing marginal utility can have no exact sense either.




                Dittmer (2005, emphasis added):




                Many introductory microeconomics textbook authors derive the law of demand from the assumption of diminishing marginal utility. Authors of intermediate and graduate textbooks derive demand from diminishing marginal rate of substitution and ordinal preferences. These approaches are not interchangeable; diminishing marginal utility for all goods is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for diminishing marginal rate of substitution, and the assumption of diminishing marginal utility is inconsistent with the assumption of ordinal preferences.







                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$

















                  2














                  2










                  2







                  $begingroup$

                  To the pure ordinalist who believes that preferences are purely ordinal, the concept of marginal utility (MU) has no meaning. (And a fortiori, the concept of diminishing MU also has no meaning.)



                  However, the concept of the marginal rate of substitution (MRS) does have meaning.



                  In the course of our work, we may compute something that we call MU. But to the pure ordinalist, any such number found has no meaning in and of itself.




                  Example. Say an individual's preferences $succsim$ over two goods $A$ and $B$ can be represented by the utility function $U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ defined by $$U(A,B)=AB.$$



                  The intermediate microeconomics student may then carry out these computations:



                  $$MU_A=fracpartial Upartial A = B.$$



                  $$MU_B=fracpartial Upartial B = A.$$



                  $$MRS = fracMU_AMU_B=fracBA.$$



                  The above says that if, for example, my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$MU_A=B=1000text and MU_B=A=200.$$ However, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



                  The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$MRS=fracBA=frac1000200=5text units of B.$$



                  To the pure ordinalist, the above reasoning is completely legitimate, so long as one assigns meaning only to MRS. What's illegitimate is to assign any meaning to $MU_A=B$ or $MU_B=A$.



                  The pure ordinalist knows that if $hat U$ is a strictly increasing transformation of $U$, then $hat U$ is also a utility representation of $succsim$. So, for example, if $hat U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ is defined by $$hat U(A,B)=2AB,$$ then $hat U$ also represents $succsim$.



                  However, with $hat U$, our computations seem to differ slightly from before:



                  $$Mhat U_A=fracpartial hat Upartial A = 2B.$$



                  $$Mhat U_B=fracpartial hat Upartial B = 2A.$$



                  $$hatMRS = fracMhat U_AMhat U_B=frac2B2A=fracBA.$$



                  Any conclusions we arrive at with the new utility representation $hat U$ are the same as before.



                  If again my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$Mhat U_A=2B=2000text and Mhat U_B=2A=400.$$ However and again, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



                  The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$hatMRS=frac2B2A=frac2000400=5text units of B.$$



                  The quantity MU by itself has no meaning. Confusion arises only when one attaches meaning to MU and wonders how for example it is that $$Mhat U_A = 2MU_A,$$ and what the above equation means. (Answer: It means nothing.)



                  Out of convenience, the intermediate microeconomics student will often compute something called $MU_A$ and $MU_B$ and these can often be evaluated as actual numbers. But on their own, these numbers have no meaning (to the pure ordinalist). Only the ratio of the two quantities has any meaning: $$MRS=fracMU_AMU_B.$$




                  Some quotes. Hicks (1939):




                  We have now to undertake a purge, rejecting all concepts which are tainted by quantitative utility, and replacing them, so far as they need to be replaced, by concepts which have no such implication.



                  The first victim must evidently be marginal utility itself. If total utility is arbitrary, so is marginal utility. ...



                  The second victim (a more serious one this time) must be the principle of Diminishing Marginal Utility. If marginal utility has no exact sense, diminishing marginal utility can have no exact sense either.




                  Dittmer (2005, emphasis added):




                  Many introductory microeconomics textbook authors derive the law of demand from the assumption of diminishing marginal utility. Authors of intermediate and graduate textbooks derive demand from diminishing marginal rate of substitution and ordinal preferences. These approaches are not interchangeable; diminishing marginal utility for all goods is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for diminishing marginal rate of substitution, and the assumption of diminishing marginal utility is inconsistent with the assumption of ordinal preferences.







                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  To the pure ordinalist who believes that preferences are purely ordinal, the concept of marginal utility (MU) has no meaning. (And a fortiori, the concept of diminishing MU also has no meaning.)



                  However, the concept of the marginal rate of substitution (MRS) does have meaning.



                  In the course of our work, we may compute something that we call MU. But to the pure ordinalist, any such number found has no meaning in and of itself.




                  Example. Say an individual's preferences $succsim$ over two goods $A$ and $B$ can be represented by the utility function $U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ defined by $$U(A,B)=AB.$$



                  The intermediate microeconomics student may then carry out these computations:



                  $$MU_A=fracpartial Upartial A = B.$$



                  $$MU_B=fracpartial Upartial B = A.$$



                  $$MRS = fracMU_AMU_B=fracBA.$$



                  The above says that if, for example, my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$MU_A=B=1000text and MU_B=A=200.$$ However, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



                  The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$MRS=fracBA=frac1000200=5text units of B.$$



                  To the pure ordinalist, the above reasoning is completely legitimate, so long as one assigns meaning only to MRS. What's illegitimate is to assign any meaning to $MU_A=B$ or $MU_B=A$.



                  The pure ordinalist knows that if $hat U$ is a strictly increasing transformation of $U$, then $hat U$ is also a utility representation of $succsim$. So, for example, if $hat U:(mathbbR^+_0)^2rightarrowmathbbR$ is defined by $$hat U(A,B)=2AB,$$ then $hat U$ also represents $succsim$.



                  However, with $hat U$, our computations seem to differ slightly from before:



                  $$Mhat U_A=fracpartial hat Upartial A = 2B.$$



                  $$Mhat U_B=fracpartial hat Upartial B = 2A.$$



                  $$hatMRS = fracMhat U_AMhat U_B=frac2B2A=fracBA.$$



                  Any conclusions we arrive at with the new utility representation $hat U$ are the same as before.



                  If again my current bundle is $(A,B)=(200,1000)$, then $$Mhat U_A=2B=2000text and Mhat U_B=2A=400.$$ However and again, these two numbers have no meaning whatsoever.



                  The only number that has meaning is the MRS: To get another unit of $A$, I'm willing to give up (approximately) $$hatMRS=frac2B2A=frac2000400=5text units of B.$$



                  The quantity MU by itself has no meaning. Confusion arises only when one attaches meaning to MU and wonders how for example it is that $$Mhat U_A = 2MU_A,$$ and what the above equation means. (Answer: It means nothing.)



                  Out of convenience, the intermediate microeconomics student will often compute something called $MU_A$ and $MU_B$ and these can often be evaluated as actual numbers. But on their own, these numbers have no meaning (to the pure ordinalist). Only the ratio of the two quantities has any meaning: $$MRS=fracMU_AMU_B.$$




                  Some quotes. Hicks (1939):




                  We have now to undertake a purge, rejecting all concepts which are tainted by quantitative utility, and replacing them, so far as they need to be replaced, by concepts which have no such implication.



                  The first victim must evidently be marginal utility itself. If total utility is arbitrary, so is marginal utility. ...



                  The second victim (a more serious one this time) must be the principle of Diminishing Marginal Utility. If marginal utility has no exact sense, diminishing marginal utility can have no exact sense either.




                  Dittmer (2005, emphasis added):




                  Many introductory microeconomics textbook authors derive the law of demand from the assumption of diminishing marginal utility. Authors of intermediate and graduate textbooks derive demand from diminishing marginal rate of substitution and ordinal preferences. These approaches are not interchangeable; diminishing marginal utility for all goods is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for diminishing marginal rate of substitution, and the assumption of diminishing marginal utility is inconsistent with the assumption of ordinal preferences.








                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 7 mins ago

























                  answered 35 mins ago









                  Kenny LJKenny LJ

                  7,1882 gold badges22 silver badges50 bronze badges




                  7,1882 gold badges22 silver badges50 bronze badges


























                      0













                      $begingroup$

                      What matters is not the utility function but the indifference sets. They produce an ordering of the outcomes. This ordering is a total order - reflexive, transitive, antisymmetric and total. If some conditions are satisfied we obtain indifference sets in the form of the the usual indifference curves. A sufficient condition for this is that the relationship is monotonic ($a > b Rightarrow a$ is preferred to $b$). Only after we have indifference curves do we get to speak about utility. A utility function is a mere representation of a particular partition of the outcomes into indifference curves. This is called utility representation of preferences.



                      Note that we are talking about marginal utility only when we are looking for the solution of the consumer choice problem. In this case we are not interested in the utility function in of itself. We only use the fact that a differentiable utility function with nice properties correctly represents the underlying indifference curves. This allows us to use the toolbox of mathematical optimization to find the optimal bundle.



                      A good example for the fact that the utility function is only a reformulation of the initial question, determined by the indifference curves, is the case of perfect comlpements - you have indifference curves, you have a set of utility representations for this indifference curves and you never talk about marginal utility in this case. As it is either zero or infinite, it is certainly useless to apply the utility representation to solve the consumer's problem here, but the consumer's problem still exists and has a well-defined solution.



                      Thus yes the utility function is cardinal, but the local ordering of preferences in a neighborhood of a bundle, which is what the marginal utility describes, stems from the indifference curves and is not caused by the cardinality of the utility function.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



















                        0













                        $begingroup$

                        What matters is not the utility function but the indifference sets. They produce an ordering of the outcomes. This ordering is a total order - reflexive, transitive, antisymmetric and total. If some conditions are satisfied we obtain indifference sets in the form of the the usual indifference curves. A sufficient condition for this is that the relationship is monotonic ($a > b Rightarrow a$ is preferred to $b$). Only after we have indifference curves do we get to speak about utility. A utility function is a mere representation of a particular partition of the outcomes into indifference curves. This is called utility representation of preferences.



                        Note that we are talking about marginal utility only when we are looking for the solution of the consumer choice problem. In this case we are not interested in the utility function in of itself. We only use the fact that a differentiable utility function with nice properties correctly represents the underlying indifference curves. This allows us to use the toolbox of mathematical optimization to find the optimal bundle.



                        A good example for the fact that the utility function is only a reformulation of the initial question, determined by the indifference curves, is the case of perfect comlpements - you have indifference curves, you have a set of utility representations for this indifference curves and you never talk about marginal utility in this case. As it is either zero or infinite, it is certainly useless to apply the utility representation to solve the consumer's problem here, but the consumer's problem still exists and has a well-defined solution.



                        Thus yes the utility function is cardinal, but the local ordering of preferences in a neighborhood of a bundle, which is what the marginal utility describes, stems from the indifference curves and is not caused by the cardinality of the utility function.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$

















                          0














                          0










                          0







                          $begingroup$

                          What matters is not the utility function but the indifference sets. They produce an ordering of the outcomes. This ordering is a total order - reflexive, transitive, antisymmetric and total. If some conditions are satisfied we obtain indifference sets in the form of the the usual indifference curves. A sufficient condition for this is that the relationship is monotonic ($a > b Rightarrow a$ is preferred to $b$). Only after we have indifference curves do we get to speak about utility. A utility function is a mere representation of a particular partition of the outcomes into indifference curves. This is called utility representation of preferences.



                          Note that we are talking about marginal utility only when we are looking for the solution of the consumer choice problem. In this case we are not interested in the utility function in of itself. We only use the fact that a differentiable utility function with nice properties correctly represents the underlying indifference curves. This allows us to use the toolbox of mathematical optimization to find the optimal bundle.



                          A good example for the fact that the utility function is only a reformulation of the initial question, determined by the indifference curves, is the case of perfect comlpements - you have indifference curves, you have a set of utility representations for this indifference curves and you never talk about marginal utility in this case. As it is either zero or infinite, it is certainly useless to apply the utility representation to solve the consumer's problem here, but the consumer's problem still exists and has a well-defined solution.



                          Thus yes the utility function is cardinal, but the local ordering of preferences in a neighborhood of a bundle, which is what the marginal utility describes, stems from the indifference curves and is not caused by the cardinality of the utility function.






                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$



                          What matters is not the utility function but the indifference sets. They produce an ordering of the outcomes. This ordering is a total order - reflexive, transitive, antisymmetric and total. If some conditions are satisfied we obtain indifference sets in the form of the the usual indifference curves. A sufficient condition for this is that the relationship is monotonic ($a > b Rightarrow a$ is preferred to $b$). Only after we have indifference curves do we get to speak about utility. A utility function is a mere representation of a particular partition of the outcomes into indifference curves. This is called utility representation of preferences.



                          Note that we are talking about marginal utility only when we are looking for the solution of the consumer choice problem. In this case we are not interested in the utility function in of itself. We only use the fact that a differentiable utility function with nice properties correctly represents the underlying indifference curves. This allows us to use the toolbox of mathematical optimization to find the optimal bundle.



                          A good example for the fact that the utility function is only a reformulation of the initial question, determined by the indifference curves, is the case of perfect comlpements - you have indifference curves, you have a set of utility representations for this indifference curves and you never talk about marginal utility in this case. As it is either zero or infinite, it is certainly useless to apply the utility representation to solve the consumer's problem here, but the consumer's problem still exists and has a well-defined solution.



                          Thus yes the utility function is cardinal, but the local ordering of preferences in a neighborhood of a bundle, which is what the marginal utility describes, stems from the indifference curves and is not caused by the cardinality of the utility function.







                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited 5 hours ago

























                          answered 10 hours ago









                          Grada GukovicGrada Gukovic

                          2357 bronze badges




                          2357 bronze badges






























                              draft saved

                              draft discarded
















































                              Thanks for contributing an answer to Economics Stack Exchange!


                              • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                              But avoid


                              • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                              • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                              Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                              To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                              draft saved


                              draft discarded














                              StackExchange.ready(
                              function ()
                              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2feconomics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f30713%2fdoesnt-the-concept-of-marginal-utility-speak-to-a-cardinal-utility-function%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                              );

                              Post as a guest















                              Required, but never shown





















































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown

































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown







                              Popular posts from this blog

                              Invision Community Contents History See also References External links Navigation menuProprietaryinvisioncommunity.comIPS Community ForumsIPS Community Forumsthis blog entry"License Changes, IP.Board 3.4, and the Future""Interview -- Matt Mecham of Ibforums""CEO Invision Power Board, Matt Mecham Is a Liar, Thief!"IPB License Explanation 1.3, 1.3.1, 2.0, and 2.1ArchivedSecurity Fixes, Updates And Enhancements For IPB 1.3.1Archived"New Demo Accounts - Invision Power Services"the original"New Default Skin"the original"Invision Power Board 3.0.0 and Applications Released"the original"Archived copy"the original"Perpetual licenses being done away with""Release Notes - Invision Power Services""Introducing: IPS Community Suite 4!"Invision Community Release Notes

                              Canceling a color specificationRandomly assigning color to Graphics3D objects?Default color for Filling in Mathematica 9Coloring specific elements of sets with a prime modified order in an array plotHow to pick a color differing significantly from the colors already in a given color list?Detection of the text colorColor numbers based on their valueCan color schemes for use with ColorData include opacity specification?My dynamic color schemes

                              Tom Holland Mục lục Đầu đời và giáo dục | Sự nghiệp | Cuộc sống cá nhân | Phim tham gia | Giải thưởng và đề cử | Chú thích | Liên kết ngoài | Trình đơn chuyển hướngProfile“Person Details for Thomas Stanley Holland, "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008" — FamilySearch.org”"Meet Tom Holland... the 16-year-old star of The Impossible""Schoolboy actor Tom Holland finds himself in Oscar contention for role in tsunami drama"“Naomi Watts on the Prince William and Harry's reaction to her film about the late Princess Diana”lưu trữ"Holland and Pflueger Are West End's Two New 'Billy Elliots'""I'm so envious of my son, the movie star! British writer Dominic Holland's spent 20 years trying to crack Hollywood - but he's been beaten to it by a very unlikely rival"“Richard and Margaret Povey of Jersey, Channel Islands, UK: Information about Thomas Stanley Holland”"Tom Holland to play Billy Elliot""New Billy Elliot leaving the garage"Billy Elliot the Musical - Tom Holland - Billy"A Tale of four Billys: Tom Holland""The Feel Good Factor""Thames Christian College schoolboys join Myleene Klass for The Feelgood Factor""Government launches £600,000 arts bursaries pilot""BILLY's Chapman, Holland, Gardner & Jackson-Keen Visit Prime Minister""Elton John 'blown away' by Billy Elliot fifth birthday" (video with John's interview and fragments of Holland's performance)"First News interviews Arrietty's Tom Holland"“33rd Critics' Circle Film Awards winners”“National Board of Review Current Awards”Bản gốc"Ron Howard Whaling Tale 'In The Heart Of The Sea' Casts Tom Holland"“'Spider-Man' Finds Tom Holland to Star as New Web-Slinger”lưu trữ“Captain America: Civil War (2016)”“Film Review: ‘Captain America: Civil War’”lưu trữ“‘Captain America: Civil War’ review: Choose your own avenger”lưu trữ“The Lost City of Z reviews”“Sony Pictures and Marvel Studios Find Their 'Spider-Man' Star and Director”“‘Mary Magdalene’, ‘Current War’ & ‘Wind River’ Get 2017 Release Dates From Weinstein”“Lionsgate Unleashing Daisy Ridley & Tom Holland Starrer ‘Chaos Walking’ In Cannes”“PTA's 'Master' Leads Chicago Film Critics Nominations, UPDATED: Houston and Indiana Critics Nominations”“Nominaciones Goya 2013 Telecinco Cinema – ENG”“Jameson Empire Film Awards: Martin Freeman wins best actor for performance in The Hobbit”“34th Annual Young Artist Awards”Bản gốc“Teen Choice Awards 2016—Captain America: Civil War Leads Second Wave of Nominations”“BAFTA Film Award Nominations: ‘La La Land’ Leads Race”“Saturn Awards Nominations 2017: 'Rogue One,' 'Walking Dead' Lead”Tom HollandTom HollandTom HollandTom Hollandmedia.gettyimages.comWorldCat Identities300279794no20130442900000 0004 0355 42791085670554170004732cb16706349t(data)XX5557367