What is the lowest-speed bogey a jet fighter can intercept/escort?What is the correct procedure to deal with a TCAS RA during intercept?How can the concept of “intercept geometry” be explained in simple terms?

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What is the lowest-speed bogey a jet fighter can intercept/escort?

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What is the lowest-speed bogey a jet fighter can intercept/escort?


What is the correct procedure to deal with a TCAS RA during intercept?How can the concept of “intercept geometry” be explained in simple terms?






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9












$begingroup$


Jet fighters are made to cruise at a high subsonic speed, even at a supersonic speed (supercruise?). It means that they can be flown comfortably at relatively high speeds.



Jet fighters are often used to intercept aircraft, whatever the reason (assistance, escort from national to international airspace, check an unresponsive aircraft,...).



General aviation aircraft can cruise at a slow speed compared to jet fighter. Moreover, if needing assistance, it may fly even slower. I imagine it is possible that a GA aircraft needing assistance cannot fly at a speed above the stall speed of a jet fighter. I know that some countries dispatch choppers to intercept slow aircraft to handle such situation.



I imagine the military doesn't fly their jets at stall speeds when close to another aircraft (a margin is needed).



Is there a speed below which a jet fighter cannot intercept another aircraft? Otherwise, how do they do it? (I imagine you can orbit above another aircraft but it is less convenient to guide it safely to an airport)










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Edited title for typo - hope that’s what was intended!
    $endgroup$
    – Cpt Reynolds
    14 hours ago

















9












$begingroup$


Jet fighters are made to cruise at a high subsonic speed, even at a supersonic speed (supercruise?). It means that they can be flown comfortably at relatively high speeds.



Jet fighters are often used to intercept aircraft, whatever the reason (assistance, escort from national to international airspace, check an unresponsive aircraft,...).



General aviation aircraft can cruise at a slow speed compared to jet fighter. Moreover, if needing assistance, it may fly even slower. I imagine it is possible that a GA aircraft needing assistance cannot fly at a speed above the stall speed of a jet fighter. I know that some countries dispatch choppers to intercept slow aircraft to handle such situation.



I imagine the military doesn't fly their jets at stall speeds when close to another aircraft (a margin is needed).



Is there a speed below which a jet fighter cannot intercept another aircraft? Otherwise, how do they do it? (I imagine you can orbit above another aircraft but it is less convenient to guide it safely to an airport)










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Edited title for typo - hope that’s what was intended!
    $endgroup$
    – Cpt Reynolds
    14 hours ago













9












9








9


3



$begingroup$


Jet fighters are made to cruise at a high subsonic speed, even at a supersonic speed (supercruise?). It means that they can be flown comfortably at relatively high speeds.



Jet fighters are often used to intercept aircraft, whatever the reason (assistance, escort from national to international airspace, check an unresponsive aircraft,...).



General aviation aircraft can cruise at a slow speed compared to jet fighter. Moreover, if needing assistance, it may fly even slower. I imagine it is possible that a GA aircraft needing assistance cannot fly at a speed above the stall speed of a jet fighter. I know that some countries dispatch choppers to intercept slow aircraft to handle such situation.



I imagine the military doesn't fly their jets at stall speeds when close to another aircraft (a margin is needed).



Is there a speed below which a jet fighter cannot intercept another aircraft? Otherwise, how do they do it? (I imagine you can orbit above another aircraft but it is less convenient to guide it safely to an airport)










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Jet fighters are made to cruise at a high subsonic speed, even at a supersonic speed (supercruise?). It means that they can be flown comfortably at relatively high speeds.



Jet fighters are often used to intercept aircraft, whatever the reason (assistance, escort from national to international airspace, check an unresponsive aircraft,...).



General aviation aircraft can cruise at a slow speed compared to jet fighter. Moreover, if needing assistance, it may fly even slower. I imagine it is possible that a GA aircraft needing assistance cannot fly at a speed above the stall speed of a jet fighter. I know that some countries dispatch choppers to intercept slow aircraft to handle such situation.



I imagine the military doesn't fly their jets at stall speeds when close to another aircraft (a margin is needed).



Is there a speed below which a jet fighter cannot intercept another aircraft? Otherwise, how do they do it? (I imagine you can orbit above another aircraft but it is less convenient to guide it safely to an airport)







flight-interception






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 19 mins ago









fooot

56.5k18 gold badges181 silver badges342 bronze badges




56.5k18 gold badges181 silver badges342 bronze badges










asked 14 hours ago









Manu HManu H

5,96812 gold badges63 silver badges145 bronze badges




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  • $begingroup$
    Edited title for typo - hope that’s what was intended!
    $endgroup$
    – Cpt Reynolds
    14 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Edited title for typo - hope that’s what was intended!
    $endgroup$
    – Cpt Reynolds
    14 hours ago















$begingroup$
Edited title for typo - hope that’s what was intended!
$endgroup$
– Cpt Reynolds
14 hours ago




$begingroup$
Edited title for typo - hope that’s what was intended!
$endgroup$
– Cpt Reynolds
14 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

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9












$begingroup$

There is nothing stopping a faster jet from flying a zigzag pattern behind an intercept target if the goal is to remain in close contact with it, but a large difference in airspeeds would indeed hamper some tasks like observing the cabin for signs of life or unlawful interference. So the answer is yes, a jet fighter cannot perform all the tasks involved in a typical interception of an unresponsive aircraft if the speed delta is too high.



For reference, the take off speeds of 4.5 generation fighters like the F-16 are in the 130kt (240km/h) region, while the take of speed of something like a C172 is around 60kt (111km/h). The exact weapon and fuel load of the fighter will of course have an impact, but fighters scrambled for an intercept are typically light and with an almost clean configuration. I have deliberately used takeoff speeds instead of landing speeds to factor in a margin of safety in regards to control authority; both speeds are among the lowest an aircraft can sustain, but during close approaches to a potentially hostile aircraft, some maneuverability is required.



Still, 100+ km/h is a substantial speed gap, and has led to issues in the past:




The Po-2 is also the only biplane credited with a documented jet-kill, as one Lockheed F-94 Starfire was lost while slowing down to 161 km/h (100 mph) – below its stall speed – during an intercept in order to engage the low flying Po-2.







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    3












    $begingroup$

    There is almost no assistance a military jet could provide to a GA aircraft that would require the two to be in close formation at the same airspeed.



    The nearest situation necessitating formation flight would be to provide visual verification whether landing gear were fully extended. While close up inspection of an over-center lock is possible to confirm, a general up, down, or stuck halfway assessment is possible from quite a bit further.



    Even if it were ideal or possible, unbriefed formation flight between dissimilar aircraft with a GA pilot of unknown proficiency presents its own set of risks.



    Communication relay to ATC, assigning headings to a hole in the clouds, etc. are legit forms of assistance that could be provided from an interceptor orbiting higher overhead at a different airspeed.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      Military fighter jets are actually not all that fast, when they aren't supersonic. Their cruise speeds are below the cruise speed of airliners. Supersonic flight is mostly meant for interception, while combat speeds are low-subsonic. The best-range cruise speed for most fighters in the range of 300 knots, due to high drag, and the speed for the tightest turns goes as slow as 200 knots.



      Below their maneuvering speeds, there is considerable margin to an actual stall. It depends on weight and altitude, so there is no one answer, but it goes down to 100 knots and below.



      The most popular GA aircraft, the Cessna 172, has an official cruise speed of 122 knots. This is within the operating limits of most jet fighters, except when overloaded or at altitude above that of GA aircraft. So there is a sufficient amount of overlap between GA and jet speeds, if both want to stay alongside.



      However, a GA aircraft can operate much slower, and jet fighters generally won't be able to maintain a steady position close to their stall speeds. While their TWR can be close to 1, the typical fighter aircraft is simply not controllable at a 45-degree angle of attack. Make no mistake, a fighter won't lose a GA plane, but it won't be able to maintain a steady position next to it.



      Fighters with thrust vectoring, which are still rare, could sustain mostly side-by-side contact with a GA aircraft. The Pugachev's Cobra maneuver can slow a supermaneuverable plane to near-zero airspeed, although it will have to get back to its stall speed after.



      That said, a helicopter is still more practical for assisting a GA airplane, not least because it's much more likely to be able to land near the plane's crash site to help pull the occupants out.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Wow, the old straight-tail 172 I flew sure didn't cruise at 122 knots. Anyway, would almost be worth busting some Russian airspace just to see someone doing a Cobra maneuver next to me.
        $endgroup$
        – quiet flyer
        4 hours ago











      • $begingroup$
        @Therac, I downvoted your answer because I don't agree with the first paragraph. True that the slower the speed the tighter the turn, but no fighter will enter a merge at 200 knots. Speed is life. There is a number called "cornering speed" where the aircraft is fast enough to pull right up to the G limit without entering an accelerated stall, but will stall before overstressing. This is where the best turn performance is achieved. I didn't fly fighters, but in the Prowler this was 300KIAS for a frame of reference. Still, we practiced defensive ACM much faster.
        $endgroup$
        – Michael Hall
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @MichaelHall Ouch, re-read my post - I merged two sentences I shouldn't have.
        $endgroup$
        – Therac
        3 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        I still don't like the answer. With flaps down at 120 a fighter can make a radius of turn equivalent to a Cessna at cruise. However, it isn't about the radius, in a fight you want the best turn rate. A better turn rate will generate the angles to achieve an advantage and take a shot. Best rate occurs at cornering speed. I will have to ask an old Hornet friend or do a search on what this typically is for a fighter. I also think cruise is closer to 420 TAS or .7 mach. It was for us...
        $endgroup$
        – Michael Hall
        1 hour ago


















      0












      $begingroup$

      This would be a good one for the V-22 Osprey, with a flight envelop of 0 - 350 mph.
      Another possibility would be the F-35B VTOL version.



      The jet intercept would be step 1 to communicate/identify. Many helicopters could also follow up if more assistance was needed.



      Interesting to note that the Po-2 biplane would be cruising around 60 mph, in the GA range.



      "Outslowing" an intercept is no longer a survivable option. Accomplishing the task is a matter of using the right tool for the job.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 3




        $begingroup$
        The Osprey can only hover in ground effect up to 1,646m ISA (can't find any OGE) data, so that flight envelope should be taken with a grain of salt. The F-35B afaik does not have such issues.
        $endgroup$
        – AEhere
        10 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        The V22 is excluded as the question ask specifically for jet fighters. You may also mention other in service jet V/STOL such as the Harrier.
        $endgroup$
        – Manu H
        10 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Theoretically, there is no low speed limit for a jet design, as turbo and fan jets can produce thrust without forward movement. Imagine mounting 8 model jet engines on a sailplane as a personal light GA recreational aircraft. Helicopters fill the role well, especially with refueling capability. And yes, the Harrier as well.
        $endgroup$
        – Robert DiGiovanni
        10 hours ago














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      4 Answers
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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

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      votes






      active

      oldest

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      9












      $begingroup$

      There is nothing stopping a faster jet from flying a zigzag pattern behind an intercept target if the goal is to remain in close contact with it, but a large difference in airspeeds would indeed hamper some tasks like observing the cabin for signs of life or unlawful interference. So the answer is yes, a jet fighter cannot perform all the tasks involved in a typical interception of an unresponsive aircraft if the speed delta is too high.



      For reference, the take off speeds of 4.5 generation fighters like the F-16 are in the 130kt (240km/h) region, while the take of speed of something like a C172 is around 60kt (111km/h). The exact weapon and fuel load of the fighter will of course have an impact, but fighters scrambled for an intercept are typically light and with an almost clean configuration. I have deliberately used takeoff speeds instead of landing speeds to factor in a margin of safety in regards to control authority; both speeds are among the lowest an aircraft can sustain, but during close approaches to a potentially hostile aircraft, some maneuverability is required.



      Still, 100+ km/h is a substantial speed gap, and has led to issues in the past:




      The Po-2 is also the only biplane credited with a documented jet-kill, as one Lockheed F-94 Starfire was lost while slowing down to 161 km/h (100 mph) – below its stall speed – during an intercept in order to engage the low flying Po-2.







      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        9












        $begingroup$

        There is nothing stopping a faster jet from flying a zigzag pattern behind an intercept target if the goal is to remain in close contact with it, but a large difference in airspeeds would indeed hamper some tasks like observing the cabin for signs of life or unlawful interference. So the answer is yes, a jet fighter cannot perform all the tasks involved in a typical interception of an unresponsive aircraft if the speed delta is too high.



        For reference, the take off speeds of 4.5 generation fighters like the F-16 are in the 130kt (240km/h) region, while the take of speed of something like a C172 is around 60kt (111km/h). The exact weapon and fuel load of the fighter will of course have an impact, but fighters scrambled for an intercept are typically light and with an almost clean configuration. I have deliberately used takeoff speeds instead of landing speeds to factor in a margin of safety in regards to control authority; both speeds are among the lowest an aircraft can sustain, but during close approaches to a potentially hostile aircraft, some maneuverability is required.



        Still, 100+ km/h is a substantial speed gap, and has led to issues in the past:




        The Po-2 is also the only biplane credited with a documented jet-kill, as one Lockheed F-94 Starfire was lost while slowing down to 161 km/h (100 mph) – below its stall speed – during an intercept in order to engage the low flying Po-2.







        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$















          9












          9








          9





          $begingroup$

          There is nothing stopping a faster jet from flying a zigzag pattern behind an intercept target if the goal is to remain in close contact with it, but a large difference in airspeeds would indeed hamper some tasks like observing the cabin for signs of life or unlawful interference. So the answer is yes, a jet fighter cannot perform all the tasks involved in a typical interception of an unresponsive aircraft if the speed delta is too high.



          For reference, the take off speeds of 4.5 generation fighters like the F-16 are in the 130kt (240km/h) region, while the take of speed of something like a C172 is around 60kt (111km/h). The exact weapon and fuel load of the fighter will of course have an impact, but fighters scrambled for an intercept are typically light and with an almost clean configuration. I have deliberately used takeoff speeds instead of landing speeds to factor in a margin of safety in regards to control authority; both speeds are among the lowest an aircraft can sustain, but during close approaches to a potentially hostile aircraft, some maneuverability is required.



          Still, 100+ km/h is a substantial speed gap, and has led to issues in the past:




          The Po-2 is also the only biplane credited with a documented jet-kill, as one Lockheed F-94 Starfire was lost while slowing down to 161 km/h (100 mph) – below its stall speed – during an intercept in order to engage the low flying Po-2.







          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          There is nothing stopping a faster jet from flying a zigzag pattern behind an intercept target if the goal is to remain in close contact with it, but a large difference in airspeeds would indeed hamper some tasks like observing the cabin for signs of life or unlawful interference. So the answer is yes, a jet fighter cannot perform all the tasks involved in a typical interception of an unresponsive aircraft if the speed delta is too high.



          For reference, the take off speeds of 4.5 generation fighters like the F-16 are in the 130kt (240km/h) region, while the take of speed of something like a C172 is around 60kt (111km/h). The exact weapon and fuel load of the fighter will of course have an impact, but fighters scrambled for an intercept are typically light and with an almost clean configuration. I have deliberately used takeoff speeds instead of landing speeds to factor in a margin of safety in regards to control authority; both speeds are among the lowest an aircraft can sustain, but during close approaches to a potentially hostile aircraft, some maneuverability is required.



          Still, 100+ km/h is a substantial speed gap, and has led to issues in the past:




          The Po-2 is also the only biplane credited with a documented jet-kill, as one Lockheed F-94 Starfire was lost while slowing down to 161 km/h (100 mph) – below its stall speed – during an intercept in order to engage the low flying Po-2.








          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 13 hours ago

























          answered 13 hours ago









          AEhereAEhere

          4,0551 gold badge13 silver badges41 bronze badges




          4,0551 gold badge13 silver badges41 bronze badges























              3












              $begingroup$

              There is almost no assistance a military jet could provide to a GA aircraft that would require the two to be in close formation at the same airspeed.



              The nearest situation necessitating formation flight would be to provide visual verification whether landing gear were fully extended. While close up inspection of an over-center lock is possible to confirm, a general up, down, or stuck halfway assessment is possible from quite a bit further.



              Even if it were ideal or possible, unbriefed formation flight between dissimilar aircraft with a GA pilot of unknown proficiency presents its own set of risks.



              Communication relay to ATC, assigning headings to a hole in the clouds, etc. are legit forms of assistance that could be provided from an interceptor orbiting higher overhead at a different airspeed.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                3












                $begingroup$

                There is almost no assistance a military jet could provide to a GA aircraft that would require the two to be in close formation at the same airspeed.



                The nearest situation necessitating formation flight would be to provide visual verification whether landing gear were fully extended. While close up inspection of an over-center lock is possible to confirm, a general up, down, or stuck halfway assessment is possible from quite a bit further.



                Even if it were ideal or possible, unbriefed formation flight between dissimilar aircraft with a GA pilot of unknown proficiency presents its own set of risks.



                Communication relay to ATC, assigning headings to a hole in the clouds, etc. are legit forms of assistance that could be provided from an interceptor orbiting higher overhead at a different airspeed.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  3












                  3








                  3





                  $begingroup$

                  There is almost no assistance a military jet could provide to a GA aircraft that would require the two to be in close formation at the same airspeed.



                  The nearest situation necessitating formation flight would be to provide visual verification whether landing gear were fully extended. While close up inspection of an over-center lock is possible to confirm, a general up, down, or stuck halfway assessment is possible from quite a bit further.



                  Even if it were ideal or possible, unbriefed formation flight between dissimilar aircraft with a GA pilot of unknown proficiency presents its own set of risks.



                  Communication relay to ATC, assigning headings to a hole in the clouds, etc. are legit forms of assistance that could be provided from an interceptor orbiting higher overhead at a different airspeed.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  There is almost no assistance a military jet could provide to a GA aircraft that would require the two to be in close formation at the same airspeed.



                  The nearest situation necessitating formation flight would be to provide visual verification whether landing gear were fully extended. While close up inspection of an over-center lock is possible to confirm, a general up, down, or stuck halfway assessment is possible from quite a bit further.



                  Even if it were ideal or possible, unbriefed formation flight between dissimilar aircraft with a GA pilot of unknown proficiency presents its own set of risks.



                  Communication relay to ATC, assigning headings to a hole in the clouds, etc. are legit forms of assistance that could be provided from an interceptor orbiting higher overhead at a different airspeed.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 5 hours ago









                  Michael HallMichael Hall

                  2,3689 silver badges16 bronze badges




                  2,3689 silver badges16 bronze badges





















                      1












                      $begingroup$

                      Military fighter jets are actually not all that fast, when they aren't supersonic. Their cruise speeds are below the cruise speed of airliners. Supersonic flight is mostly meant for interception, while combat speeds are low-subsonic. The best-range cruise speed for most fighters in the range of 300 knots, due to high drag, and the speed for the tightest turns goes as slow as 200 knots.



                      Below their maneuvering speeds, there is considerable margin to an actual stall. It depends on weight and altitude, so there is no one answer, but it goes down to 100 knots and below.



                      The most popular GA aircraft, the Cessna 172, has an official cruise speed of 122 knots. This is within the operating limits of most jet fighters, except when overloaded or at altitude above that of GA aircraft. So there is a sufficient amount of overlap between GA and jet speeds, if both want to stay alongside.



                      However, a GA aircraft can operate much slower, and jet fighters generally won't be able to maintain a steady position close to their stall speeds. While their TWR can be close to 1, the typical fighter aircraft is simply not controllable at a 45-degree angle of attack. Make no mistake, a fighter won't lose a GA plane, but it won't be able to maintain a steady position next to it.



                      Fighters with thrust vectoring, which are still rare, could sustain mostly side-by-side contact with a GA aircraft. The Pugachev's Cobra maneuver can slow a supermaneuverable plane to near-zero airspeed, although it will have to get back to its stall speed after.



                      That said, a helicopter is still more practical for assisting a GA airplane, not least because it's much more likely to be able to land near the plane's crash site to help pull the occupants out.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$








                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Wow, the old straight-tail 172 I flew sure didn't cruise at 122 knots. Anyway, would almost be worth busting some Russian airspace just to see someone doing a Cobra maneuver next to me.
                        $endgroup$
                        – quiet flyer
                        4 hours ago











                      • $begingroup$
                        @Therac, I downvoted your answer because I don't agree with the first paragraph. True that the slower the speed the tighter the turn, but no fighter will enter a merge at 200 knots. Speed is life. There is a number called "cornering speed" where the aircraft is fast enough to pull right up to the G limit without entering an accelerated stall, but will stall before overstressing. This is where the best turn performance is achieved. I didn't fly fighters, but in the Prowler this was 300KIAS for a frame of reference. Still, we practiced defensive ACM much faster.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Hall
                        4 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @MichaelHall Ouch, re-read my post - I merged two sentences I shouldn't have.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Therac
                        3 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        I still don't like the answer. With flaps down at 120 a fighter can make a radius of turn equivalent to a Cessna at cruise. However, it isn't about the radius, in a fight you want the best turn rate. A better turn rate will generate the angles to achieve an advantage and take a shot. Best rate occurs at cornering speed. I will have to ask an old Hornet friend or do a search on what this typically is for a fighter. I also think cruise is closer to 420 TAS or .7 mach. It was for us...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Hall
                        1 hour ago















                      1












                      $begingroup$

                      Military fighter jets are actually not all that fast, when they aren't supersonic. Their cruise speeds are below the cruise speed of airliners. Supersonic flight is mostly meant for interception, while combat speeds are low-subsonic. The best-range cruise speed for most fighters in the range of 300 knots, due to high drag, and the speed for the tightest turns goes as slow as 200 knots.



                      Below their maneuvering speeds, there is considerable margin to an actual stall. It depends on weight and altitude, so there is no one answer, but it goes down to 100 knots and below.



                      The most popular GA aircraft, the Cessna 172, has an official cruise speed of 122 knots. This is within the operating limits of most jet fighters, except when overloaded or at altitude above that of GA aircraft. So there is a sufficient amount of overlap between GA and jet speeds, if both want to stay alongside.



                      However, a GA aircraft can operate much slower, and jet fighters generally won't be able to maintain a steady position close to their stall speeds. While their TWR can be close to 1, the typical fighter aircraft is simply not controllable at a 45-degree angle of attack. Make no mistake, a fighter won't lose a GA plane, but it won't be able to maintain a steady position next to it.



                      Fighters with thrust vectoring, which are still rare, could sustain mostly side-by-side contact with a GA aircraft. The Pugachev's Cobra maneuver can slow a supermaneuverable plane to near-zero airspeed, although it will have to get back to its stall speed after.



                      That said, a helicopter is still more practical for assisting a GA airplane, not least because it's much more likely to be able to land near the plane's crash site to help pull the occupants out.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$








                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Wow, the old straight-tail 172 I flew sure didn't cruise at 122 knots. Anyway, would almost be worth busting some Russian airspace just to see someone doing a Cobra maneuver next to me.
                        $endgroup$
                        – quiet flyer
                        4 hours ago











                      • $begingroup$
                        @Therac, I downvoted your answer because I don't agree with the first paragraph. True that the slower the speed the tighter the turn, but no fighter will enter a merge at 200 knots. Speed is life. There is a number called "cornering speed" where the aircraft is fast enough to pull right up to the G limit without entering an accelerated stall, but will stall before overstressing. This is where the best turn performance is achieved. I didn't fly fighters, but in the Prowler this was 300KIAS for a frame of reference. Still, we practiced defensive ACM much faster.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Hall
                        4 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @MichaelHall Ouch, re-read my post - I merged two sentences I shouldn't have.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Therac
                        3 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        I still don't like the answer. With flaps down at 120 a fighter can make a radius of turn equivalent to a Cessna at cruise. However, it isn't about the radius, in a fight you want the best turn rate. A better turn rate will generate the angles to achieve an advantage and take a shot. Best rate occurs at cornering speed. I will have to ask an old Hornet friend or do a search on what this typically is for a fighter. I also think cruise is closer to 420 TAS or .7 mach. It was for us...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Hall
                        1 hour ago













                      1












                      1








                      1





                      $begingroup$

                      Military fighter jets are actually not all that fast, when they aren't supersonic. Their cruise speeds are below the cruise speed of airliners. Supersonic flight is mostly meant for interception, while combat speeds are low-subsonic. The best-range cruise speed for most fighters in the range of 300 knots, due to high drag, and the speed for the tightest turns goes as slow as 200 knots.



                      Below their maneuvering speeds, there is considerable margin to an actual stall. It depends on weight and altitude, so there is no one answer, but it goes down to 100 knots and below.



                      The most popular GA aircraft, the Cessna 172, has an official cruise speed of 122 knots. This is within the operating limits of most jet fighters, except when overloaded or at altitude above that of GA aircraft. So there is a sufficient amount of overlap between GA and jet speeds, if both want to stay alongside.



                      However, a GA aircraft can operate much slower, and jet fighters generally won't be able to maintain a steady position close to their stall speeds. While their TWR can be close to 1, the typical fighter aircraft is simply not controllable at a 45-degree angle of attack. Make no mistake, a fighter won't lose a GA plane, but it won't be able to maintain a steady position next to it.



                      Fighters with thrust vectoring, which are still rare, could sustain mostly side-by-side contact with a GA aircraft. The Pugachev's Cobra maneuver can slow a supermaneuverable plane to near-zero airspeed, although it will have to get back to its stall speed after.



                      That said, a helicopter is still more practical for assisting a GA airplane, not least because it's much more likely to be able to land near the plane's crash site to help pull the occupants out.






                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      Military fighter jets are actually not all that fast, when they aren't supersonic. Their cruise speeds are below the cruise speed of airliners. Supersonic flight is mostly meant for interception, while combat speeds are low-subsonic. The best-range cruise speed for most fighters in the range of 300 knots, due to high drag, and the speed for the tightest turns goes as slow as 200 knots.



                      Below their maneuvering speeds, there is considerable margin to an actual stall. It depends on weight and altitude, so there is no one answer, but it goes down to 100 knots and below.



                      The most popular GA aircraft, the Cessna 172, has an official cruise speed of 122 knots. This is within the operating limits of most jet fighters, except when overloaded or at altitude above that of GA aircraft. So there is a sufficient amount of overlap between GA and jet speeds, if both want to stay alongside.



                      However, a GA aircraft can operate much slower, and jet fighters generally won't be able to maintain a steady position close to their stall speeds. While their TWR can be close to 1, the typical fighter aircraft is simply not controllable at a 45-degree angle of attack. Make no mistake, a fighter won't lose a GA plane, but it won't be able to maintain a steady position next to it.



                      Fighters with thrust vectoring, which are still rare, could sustain mostly side-by-side contact with a GA aircraft. The Pugachev's Cobra maneuver can slow a supermaneuverable plane to near-zero airspeed, although it will have to get back to its stall speed after.



                      That said, a helicopter is still more practical for assisting a GA airplane, not least because it's much more likely to be able to land near the plane's crash site to help pull the occupants out.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited 3 hours ago

























                      answered 4 hours ago









                      TheracTherac

                      8,69723 silver badges36 bronze badges




                      8,69723 silver badges36 bronze badges







                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Wow, the old straight-tail 172 I flew sure didn't cruise at 122 knots. Anyway, would almost be worth busting some Russian airspace just to see someone doing a Cobra maneuver next to me.
                        $endgroup$
                        – quiet flyer
                        4 hours ago











                      • $begingroup$
                        @Therac, I downvoted your answer because I don't agree with the first paragraph. True that the slower the speed the tighter the turn, but no fighter will enter a merge at 200 knots. Speed is life. There is a number called "cornering speed" where the aircraft is fast enough to pull right up to the G limit without entering an accelerated stall, but will stall before overstressing. This is where the best turn performance is achieved. I didn't fly fighters, but in the Prowler this was 300KIAS for a frame of reference. Still, we practiced defensive ACM much faster.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Hall
                        4 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @MichaelHall Ouch, re-read my post - I merged two sentences I shouldn't have.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Therac
                        3 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        I still don't like the answer. With flaps down at 120 a fighter can make a radius of turn equivalent to a Cessna at cruise. However, it isn't about the radius, in a fight you want the best turn rate. A better turn rate will generate the angles to achieve an advantage and take a shot. Best rate occurs at cornering speed. I will have to ask an old Hornet friend or do a search on what this typically is for a fighter. I also think cruise is closer to 420 TAS or .7 mach. It was for us...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Hall
                        1 hour ago












                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Wow, the old straight-tail 172 I flew sure didn't cruise at 122 knots. Anyway, would almost be worth busting some Russian airspace just to see someone doing a Cobra maneuver next to me.
                        $endgroup$
                        – quiet flyer
                        4 hours ago











                      • $begingroup$
                        @Therac, I downvoted your answer because I don't agree with the first paragraph. True that the slower the speed the tighter the turn, but no fighter will enter a merge at 200 knots. Speed is life. There is a number called "cornering speed" where the aircraft is fast enough to pull right up to the G limit without entering an accelerated stall, but will stall before overstressing. This is where the best turn performance is achieved. I didn't fly fighters, but in the Prowler this was 300KIAS for a frame of reference. Still, we practiced defensive ACM much faster.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Hall
                        4 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @MichaelHall Ouch, re-read my post - I merged two sentences I shouldn't have.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Therac
                        3 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        I still don't like the answer. With flaps down at 120 a fighter can make a radius of turn equivalent to a Cessna at cruise. However, it isn't about the radius, in a fight you want the best turn rate. A better turn rate will generate the angles to achieve an advantage and take a shot. Best rate occurs at cornering speed. I will have to ask an old Hornet friend or do a search on what this typically is for a fighter. I also think cruise is closer to 420 TAS or .7 mach. It was for us...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Michael Hall
                        1 hour ago







                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      Wow, the old straight-tail 172 I flew sure didn't cruise at 122 knots. Anyway, would almost be worth busting some Russian airspace just to see someone doing a Cobra maneuver next to me.
                      $endgroup$
                      – quiet flyer
                      4 hours ago





                      $begingroup$
                      Wow, the old straight-tail 172 I flew sure didn't cruise at 122 knots. Anyway, would almost be worth busting some Russian airspace just to see someone doing a Cobra maneuver next to me.
                      $endgroup$
                      – quiet flyer
                      4 hours ago













                      $begingroup$
                      @Therac, I downvoted your answer because I don't agree with the first paragraph. True that the slower the speed the tighter the turn, but no fighter will enter a merge at 200 knots. Speed is life. There is a number called "cornering speed" where the aircraft is fast enough to pull right up to the G limit without entering an accelerated stall, but will stall before overstressing. This is where the best turn performance is achieved. I didn't fly fighters, but in the Prowler this was 300KIAS for a frame of reference. Still, we practiced defensive ACM much faster.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Michael Hall
                      4 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      @Therac, I downvoted your answer because I don't agree with the first paragraph. True that the slower the speed the tighter the turn, but no fighter will enter a merge at 200 knots. Speed is life. There is a number called "cornering speed" where the aircraft is fast enough to pull right up to the G limit without entering an accelerated stall, but will stall before overstressing. This is where the best turn performance is achieved. I didn't fly fighters, but in the Prowler this was 300KIAS for a frame of reference. Still, we practiced defensive ACM much faster.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Michael Hall
                      4 hours ago












                      $begingroup$
                      @MichaelHall Ouch, re-read my post - I merged two sentences I shouldn't have.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Therac
                      3 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      @MichaelHall Ouch, re-read my post - I merged two sentences I shouldn't have.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Therac
                      3 hours ago












                      $begingroup$
                      I still don't like the answer. With flaps down at 120 a fighter can make a radius of turn equivalent to a Cessna at cruise. However, it isn't about the radius, in a fight you want the best turn rate. A better turn rate will generate the angles to achieve an advantage and take a shot. Best rate occurs at cornering speed. I will have to ask an old Hornet friend or do a search on what this typically is for a fighter. I also think cruise is closer to 420 TAS or .7 mach. It was for us...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Michael Hall
                      1 hour ago




                      $begingroup$
                      I still don't like the answer. With flaps down at 120 a fighter can make a radius of turn equivalent to a Cessna at cruise. However, it isn't about the radius, in a fight you want the best turn rate. A better turn rate will generate the angles to achieve an advantage and take a shot. Best rate occurs at cornering speed. I will have to ask an old Hornet friend or do a search on what this typically is for a fighter. I also think cruise is closer to 420 TAS or .7 mach. It was for us...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Michael Hall
                      1 hour ago











                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      This would be a good one for the V-22 Osprey, with a flight envelop of 0 - 350 mph.
                      Another possibility would be the F-35B VTOL version.



                      The jet intercept would be step 1 to communicate/identify. Many helicopters could also follow up if more assistance was needed.



                      Interesting to note that the Po-2 biplane would be cruising around 60 mph, in the GA range.



                      "Outslowing" an intercept is no longer a survivable option. Accomplishing the task is a matter of using the right tool for the job.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$








                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        The Osprey can only hover in ground effect up to 1,646m ISA (can't find any OGE) data, so that flight envelope should be taken with a grain of salt. The F-35B afaik does not have such issues.
                        $endgroup$
                        – AEhere
                        10 hours ago






                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        The V22 is excluded as the question ask specifically for jet fighters. You may also mention other in service jet V/STOL such as the Harrier.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Manu H
                        10 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Theoretically, there is no low speed limit for a jet design, as turbo and fan jets can produce thrust without forward movement. Imagine mounting 8 model jet engines on a sailplane as a personal light GA recreational aircraft. Helicopters fill the role well, especially with refueling capability. And yes, the Harrier as well.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Robert DiGiovanni
                        10 hours ago
















                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      This would be a good one for the V-22 Osprey, with a flight envelop of 0 - 350 mph.
                      Another possibility would be the F-35B VTOL version.



                      The jet intercept would be step 1 to communicate/identify. Many helicopters could also follow up if more assistance was needed.



                      Interesting to note that the Po-2 biplane would be cruising around 60 mph, in the GA range.



                      "Outslowing" an intercept is no longer a survivable option. Accomplishing the task is a matter of using the right tool for the job.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$








                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        The Osprey can only hover in ground effect up to 1,646m ISA (can't find any OGE) data, so that flight envelope should be taken with a grain of salt. The F-35B afaik does not have such issues.
                        $endgroup$
                        – AEhere
                        10 hours ago






                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        The V22 is excluded as the question ask specifically for jet fighters. You may also mention other in service jet V/STOL such as the Harrier.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Manu H
                        10 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Theoretically, there is no low speed limit for a jet design, as turbo and fan jets can produce thrust without forward movement. Imagine mounting 8 model jet engines on a sailplane as a personal light GA recreational aircraft. Helicopters fill the role well, especially with refueling capability. And yes, the Harrier as well.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Robert DiGiovanni
                        10 hours ago














                      0












                      0








                      0





                      $begingroup$

                      This would be a good one for the V-22 Osprey, with a flight envelop of 0 - 350 mph.
                      Another possibility would be the F-35B VTOL version.



                      The jet intercept would be step 1 to communicate/identify. Many helicopters could also follow up if more assistance was needed.



                      Interesting to note that the Po-2 biplane would be cruising around 60 mph, in the GA range.



                      "Outslowing" an intercept is no longer a survivable option. Accomplishing the task is a matter of using the right tool for the job.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      This would be a good one for the V-22 Osprey, with a flight envelop of 0 - 350 mph.
                      Another possibility would be the F-35B VTOL version.



                      The jet intercept would be step 1 to communicate/identify. Many helicopters could also follow up if more assistance was needed.



                      Interesting to note that the Po-2 biplane would be cruising around 60 mph, in the GA range.



                      "Outslowing" an intercept is no longer a survivable option. Accomplishing the task is a matter of using the right tool for the job.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 10 hours ago









                      Robert DiGiovanniRobert DiGiovanni

                      4,2911 gold badge4 silver badges22 bronze badges




                      4,2911 gold badge4 silver badges22 bronze badges







                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        The Osprey can only hover in ground effect up to 1,646m ISA (can't find any OGE) data, so that flight envelope should be taken with a grain of salt. The F-35B afaik does not have such issues.
                        $endgroup$
                        – AEhere
                        10 hours ago






                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        The V22 is excluded as the question ask specifically for jet fighters. You may also mention other in service jet V/STOL such as the Harrier.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Manu H
                        10 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Theoretically, there is no low speed limit for a jet design, as turbo and fan jets can produce thrust without forward movement. Imagine mounting 8 model jet engines on a sailplane as a personal light GA recreational aircraft. Helicopters fill the role well, especially with refueling capability. And yes, the Harrier as well.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Robert DiGiovanni
                        10 hours ago













                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        The Osprey can only hover in ground effect up to 1,646m ISA (can't find any OGE) data, so that flight envelope should be taken with a grain of salt. The F-35B afaik does not have such issues.
                        $endgroup$
                        – AEhere
                        10 hours ago






                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        The V22 is excluded as the question ask specifically for jet fighters. You may also mention other in service jet V/STOL such as the Harrier.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Manu H
                        10 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Theoretically, there is no low speed limit for a jet design, as turbo and fan jets can produce thrust without forward movement. Imagine mounting 8 model jet engines on a sailplane as a personal light GA recreational aircraft. Helicopters fill the role well, especially with refueling capability. And yes, the Harrier as well.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Robert DiGiovanni
                        10 hours ago








                      3




                      3




                      $begingroup$
                      The Osprey can only hover in ground effect up to 1,646m ISA (can't find any OGE) data, so that flight envelope should be taken with a grain of salt. The F-35B afaik does not have such issues.
                      $endgroup$
                      – AEhere
                      10 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      The Osprey can only hover in ground effect up to 1,646m ISA (can't find any OGE) data, so that flight envelope should be taken with a grain of salt. The F-35B afaik does not have such issues.
                      $endgroup$
                      – AEhere
                      10 hours ago




                      2




                      2




                      $begingroup$
                      The V22 is excluded as the question ask specifically for jet fighters. You may also mention other in service jet V/STOL such as the Harrier.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Manu H
                      10 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      The V22 is excluded as the question ask specifically for jet fighters. You may also mention other in service jet V/STOL such as the Harrier.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Manu H
                      10 hours ago




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      Theoretically, there is no low speed limit for a jet design, as turbo and fan jets can produce thrust without forward movement. Imagine mounting 8 model jet engines on a sailplane as a personal light GA recreational aircraft. Helicopters fill the role well, especially with refueling capability. And yes, the Harrier as well.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Robert DiGiovanni
                      10 hours ago





                      $begingroup$
                      Theoretically, there is no low speed limit for a jet design, as turbo and fan jets can produce thrust without forward movement. Imagine mounting 8 model jet engines on a sailplane as a personal light GA recreational aircraft. Helicopters fill the role well, especially with refueling capability. And yes, the Harrier as well.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Robert DiGiovanni
                      10 hours ago


















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