Simple question about “vacuous truth”.(Proof writing) Logical translation of a mathematical propositionHow does definition of nowhere dense imply not dense in any subset?Vacuous Truth and Universal Conditional Statementsvacuous truth -> empty set is both included and not included in every set?In any metric space: is the intersection of a countable sequence of dense, open sets always non-empty and dense?Are my solutions correct?How is it possible to draw any meaningful statements in mathematics from vacuous truths?Empty set, subsets, and vacuous truthsProve the equivalent conditions for nowhere dense subset.A set $A$ is nowhere dense if and only if every non-empty open set has a non-emtpy open subset disjoint from $overlineA$(Proof writing) Logical translation of a mathematical proposition
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Simple question about “vacuous truth”.
(Proof writing) Logical translation of a mathematical propositionHow does definition of nowhere dense imply not dense in any subset?Vacuous Truth and Universal Conditional Statementsvacuous truth -> empty set is both included and not included in every set?In any metric space: is the intersection of a countable sequence of dense, open sets always non-empty and dense?Are my solutions correct?How is it possible to draw any meaningful statements in mathematics from vacuous truths?Empty set, subsets, and vacuous truthsProve the equivalent conditions for nowhere dense subset.A set $A$ is nowhere dense if and only if every non-empty open set has a non-emtpy open subset disjoint from $overlineA$(Proof writing) Logical translation of a mathematical proposition
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
In my homework there is an exercise that asks to show the following result:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
I was thinking in the case of the empty set. My question:
"$emptyset$ contains an element of $A$" is false or is vacuously true?
If it is false, then the necessary condition for the denseness of $A$ will always be false, because there will always be the (open) empty set in $E$ which does not contain any element of $A$. In this case, logically, $A$ would never be a dense subset of $E$. Is my argument right or am I going crazy?
Thanks in advance.
general-topology logic metric-spaces
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In my homework there is an exercise that asks to show the following result:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
I was thinking in the case of the empty set. My question:
"$emptyset$ contains an element of $A$" is false or is vacuously true?
If it is false, then the necessary condition for the denseness of $A$ will always be false, because there will always be the (open) empty set in $E$ which does not contain any element of $A$. In this case, logically, $A$ would never be a dense subset of $E$. Is my argument right or am I going crazy?
Thanks in advance.
general-topology logic metric-spaces
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In my homework there is an exercise that asks to show the following result:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
I was thinking in the case of the empty set. My question:
"$emptyset$ contains an element of $A$" is false or is vacuously true?
If it is false, then the necessary condition for the denseness of $A$ will always be false, because there will always be the (open) empty set in $E$ which does not contain any element of $A$. In this case, logically, $A$ would never be a dense subset of $E$. Is my argument right or am I going crazy?
Thanks in advance.
general-topology logic metric-spaces
$endgroup$
In my homework there is an exercise that asks to show the following result:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
I was thinking in the case of the empty set. My question:
"$emptyset$ contains an element of $A$" is false or is vacuously true?
If it is false, then the necessary condition for the denseness of $A$ will always be false, because there will always be the (open) empty set in $E$ which does not contain any element of $A$. In this case, logically, $A$ would never be a dense subset of $E$. Is my argument right or am I going crazy?
Thanks in advance.
general-topology logic metric-spaces
general-topology logic metric-spaces
edited 4 hours ago
Eric Wofsey
202k14 gold badges235 silver badges367 bronze badges
202k14 gold badges235 silver badges367 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
DanmatDanmat
1598 bronze badges
1598 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The formulation you quoted is slightly wrong, it should have been:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every non-empty open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
So you're not going crazy. In the formulation you gave no set will ever be dense and we've defined a "vacuous property". And the corrected formulation (by vacuous truth, as there are no non-empty open subsets to check) indeed allows us even to say that $emptyset$ is dense in the empty space $emptyset$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It is what I was thinking. If I dont exclude the empty set, it would imply that no subset in $E$ would be dense. Do you agree??
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Yes, indeed. We want it to mean $overlineA=X$ and the correct formulation does that.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
$P iff Q$ is equivalent to $neg P iff neg Q$. So if $Q$ is always false, it means that $P$ is always false too. What do you think of this argument?
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Fine, but what's your point with that argument? what is $P$ and $Q$ here?
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Danmat Sure. But you still have to show that $E$ always has a dense subset to finish the argument. (e.g. by noting $E$ is always dense in $E$). But the exercise is false, let's just stop flogging a dead horse, shall we? Just do the corrected exercise instead.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
The empty set contains no elements, from $A$ or any other set. This is not an instance of vacuous truth, this is just false.
The vacuous truth that I think you're thinking of is of the form $forall x in emptyset, P(x)$, where $P$ is some predicate. It doesn't matter what the predicate is, or how laughably false it might be (e.g. "$x$ is a square prime"), the preceding statement is considered true simply by virtue of there being nothing preventing it from being false. Its negation, $exists x in emptyset : neg P(x)$, is always false, simply because it asserts the existence of an element $x$ of the empty set.
But this is not the case here. You do have a "for all" statement; you are considering all open subsets of $E$, which indeed includes the empty set, and hence is a non-empty set! You therefore do not get vacuous truth. Instead, you now have a counterexample: the empty set does not intersect with any $A$, so according to this (false) result, no set is dense.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I tried to argument about it. I took it very seriously. But I got stucked in formal logic. See here please. math.stackexchange.com/questions/3284613/…
$endgroup$
– Danmat
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $p in X subset E$ open. So, there exists $r > 0$ such that $B(p, r) subset X$.
As $barA = E$, $p$ is adherent to $A$. Therefore $B(p,r) cap A neq emptyset$. Thus, there is $q in A$ and $q in B(p,r) subset X$, this is, $A cap X neq emptyset$
reciprocally, suppose it absurd that $barA neq E$. Therefore, there is an element $x in E$ such that $x not in barA$. Thus, $x in E - barA Rightarrow x in mboxint(E - A) subset E - A$. So, $B(x, varepsilon) cap A = emptyset$, absurd ! Therefore, $barA = E$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The formulation you quoted is slightly wrong, it should have been:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every non-empty open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
So you're not going crazy. In the formulation you gave no set will ever be dense and we've defined a "vacuous property". And the corrected formulation (by vacuous truth, as there are no non-empty open subsets to check) indeed allows us even to say that $emptyset$ is dense in the empty space $emptyset$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It is what I was thinking. If I dont exclude the empty set, it would imply that no subset in $E$ would be dense. Do you agree??
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Yes, indeed. We want it to mean $overlineA=X$ and the correct formulation does that.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
$P iff Q$ is equivalent to $neg P iff neg Q$. So if $Q$ is always false, it means that $P$ is always false too. What do you think of this argument?
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Fine, but what's your point with that argument? what is $P$ and $Q$ here?
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Danmat Sure. But you still have to show that $E$ always has a dense subset to finish the argument. (e.g. by noting $E$ is always dense in $E$). But the exercise is false, let's just stop flogging a dead horse, shall we? Just do the corrected exercise instead.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
The formulation you quoted is slightly wrong, it should have been:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every non-empty open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
So you're not going crazy. In the formulation you gave no set will ever be dense and we've defined a "vacuous property". And the corrected formulation (by vacuous truth, as there are no non-empty open subsets to check) indeed allows us even to say that $emptyset$ is dense in the empty space $emptyset$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It is what I was thinking. If I dont exclude the empty set, it would imply that no subset in $E$ would be dense. Do you agree??
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Yes, indeed. We want it to mean $overlineA=X$ and the correct formulation does that.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
$P iff Q$ is equivalent to $neg P iff neg Q$. So if $Q$ is always false, it means that $P$ is always false too. What do you think of this argument?
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Fine, but what's your point with that argument? what is $P$ and $Q$ here?
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Danmat Sure. But you still have to show that $E$ always has a dense subset to finish the argument. (e.g. by noting $E$ is always dense in $E$). But the exercise is false, let's just stop flogging a dead horse, shall we? Just do the corrected exercise instead.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
The formulation you quoted is slightly wrong, it should have been:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every non-empty open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
So you're not going crazy. In the formulation you gave no set will ever be dense and we've defined a "vacuous property". And the corrected formulation (by vacuous truth, as there are no non-empty open subsets to check) indeed allows us even to say that $emptyset$ is dense in the empty space $emptyset$.
$endgroup$
The formulation you quoted is slightly wrong, it should have been:
Let $(E,d)$ be a metric space. Show that a subset $A$ is dense in $E$
iff every non-empty open set in $(E,d)$ contains an element of $A$.
So you're not going crazy. In the formulation you gave no set will ever be dense and we've defined a "vacuous property". And the corrected formulation (by vacuous truth, as there are no non-empty open subsets to check) indeed allows us even to say that $emptyset$ is dense in the empty space $emptyset$.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Henno BrandsmaHenno Brandsma
124k3 gold badges52 silver badges135 bronze badges
124k3 gold badges52 silver badges135 bronze badges
$begingroup$
It is what I was thinking. If I dont exclude the empty set, it would imply that no subset in $E$ would be dense. Do you agree??
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Yes, indeed. We want it to mean $overlineA=X$ and the correct formulation does that.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
$P iff Q$ is equivalent to $neg P iff neg Q$. So if $Q$ is always false, it means that $P$ is always false too. What do you think of this argument?
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Fine, but what's your point with that argument? what is $P$ and $Q$ here?
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Danmat Sure. But you still have to show that $E$ always has a dense subset to finish the argument. (e.g. by noting $E$ is always dense in $E$). But the exercise is false, let's just stop flogging a dead horse, shall we? Just do the corrected exercise instead.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
It is what I was thinking. If I dont exclude the empty set, it would imply that no subset in $E$ would be dense. Do you agree??
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Yes, indeed. We want it to mean $overlineA=X$ and the correct formulation does that.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
$P iff Q$ is equivalent to $neg P iff neg Q$. So if $Q$ is always false, it means that $P$ is always false too. What do you think of this argument?
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Fine, but what's your point with that argument? what is $P$ and $Q$ here?
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Danmat Sure. But you still have to show that $E$ always has a dense subset to finish the argument. (e.g. by noting $E$ is always dense in $E$). But the exercise is false, let's just stop flogging a dead horse, shall we? Just do the corrected exercise instead.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
It is what I was thinking. If I dont exclude the empty set, it would imply that no subset in $E$ would be dense. Do you agree??
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
It is what I was thinking. If I dont exclude the empty set, it would imply that no subset in $E$ would be dense. Do you agree??
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Yes, indeed. We want it to mean $overlineA=X$ and the correct formulation does that.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Yes, indeed. We want it to mean $overlineA=X$ and the correct formulation does that.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
$P iff Q$ is equivalent to $neg P iff neg Q$. So if $Q$ is always false, it means that $P$ is always false too. What do you think of this argument?
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
$P iff Q$ is equivalent to $neg P iff neg Q$. So if $Q$ is always false, it means that $P$ is always false too. What do you think of this argument?
$endgroup$
– Danmat
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Fine, but what's your point with that argument? what is $P$ and $Q$ here?
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Fine, but what's your point with that argument? what is $P$ and $Q$ here?
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
8 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
@Danmat Sure. But you still have to show that $E$ always has a dense subset to finish the argument. (e.g. by noting $E$ is always dense in $E$). But the exercise is false, let's just stop flogging a dead horse, shall we? Just do the corrected exercise instead.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Danmat Sure. But you still have to show that $E$ always has a dense subset to finish the argument. (e.g. by noting $E$ is always dense in $E$). But the exercise is false, let's just stop flogging a dead horse, shall we? Just do the corrected exercise instead.
$endgroup$
– Henno Brandsma
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
The empty set contains no elements, from $A$ or any other set. This is not an instance of vacuous truth, this is just false.
The vacuous truth that I think you're thinking of is of the form $forall x in emptyset, P(x)$, where $P$ is some predicate. It doesn't matter what the predicate is, or how laughably false it might be (e.g. "$x$ is a square prime"), the preceding statement is considered true simply by virtue of there being nothing preventing it from being false. Its negation, $exists x in emptyset : neg P(x)$, is always false, simply because it asserts the existence of an element $x$ of the empty set.
But this is not the case here. You do have a "for all" statement; you are considering all open subsets of $E$, which indeed includes the empty set, and hence is a non-empty set! You therefore do not get vacuous truth. Instead, you now have a counterexample: the empty set does not intersect with any $A$, so according to this (false) result, no set is dense.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I tried to argument about it. I took it very seriously. But I got stucked in formal logic. See here please. math.stackexchange.com/questions/3284613/…
$endgroup$
– Danmat
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The empty set contains no elements, from $A$ or any other set. This is not an instance of vacuous truth, this is just false.
The vacuous truth that I think you're thinking of is of the form $forall x in emptyset, P(x)$, where $P$ is some predicate. It doesn't matter what the predicate is, or how laughably false it might be (e.g. "$x$ is a square prime"), the preceding statement is considered true simply by virtue of there being nothing preventing it from being false. Its negation, $exists x in emptyset : neg P(x)$, is always false, simply because it asserts the existence of an element $x$ of the empty set.
But this is not the case here. You do have a "for all" statement; you are considering all open subsets of $E$, which indeed includes the empty set, and hence is a non-empty set! You therefore do not get vacuous truth. Instead, you now have a counterexample: the empty set does not intersect with any $A$, so according to this (false) result, no set is dense.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I tried to argument about it. I took it very seriously. But I got stucked in formal logic. See here please. math.stackexchange.com/questions/3284613/…
$endgroup$
– Danmat
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The empty set contains no elements, from $A$ or any other set. This is not an instance of vacuous truth, this is just false.
The vacuous truth that I think you're thinking of is of the form $forall x in emptyset, P(x)$, where $P$ is some predicate. It doesn't matter what the predicate is, or how laughably false it might be (e.g. "$x$ is a square prime"), the preceding statement is considered true simply by virtue of there being nothing preventing it from being false. Its negation, $exists x in emptyset : neg P(x)$, is always false, simply because it asserts the existence of an element $x$ of the empty set.
But this is not the case here. You do have a "for all" statement; you are considering all open subsets of $E$, which indeed includes the empty set, and hence is a non-empty set! You therefore do not get vacuous truth. Instead, you now have a counterexample: the empty set does not intersect with any $A$, so according to this (false) result, no set is dense.
$endgroup$
The empty set contains no elements, from $A$ or any other set. This is not an instance of vacuous truth, this is just false.
The vacuous truth that I think you're thinking of is of the form $forall x in emptyset, P(x)$, where $P$ is some predicate. It doesn't matter what the predicate is, or how laughably false it might be (e.g. "$x$ is a square prime"), the preceding statement is considered true simply by virtue of there being nothing preventing it from being false. Its negation, $exists x in emptyset : neg P(x)$, is always false, simply because it asserts the existence of an element $x$ of the empty set.
But this is not the case here. You do have a "for all" statement; you are considering all open subsets of $E$, which indeed includes the empty set, and hence is a non-empty set! You therefore do not get vacuous truth. Instead, you now have a counterexample: the empty set does not intersect with any $A$, so according to this (false) result, no set is dense.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Theo BenditTheo Bendit
24.9k1 gold badge25 silver badges61 bronze badges
24.9k1 gold badge25 silver badges61 bronze badges
$begingroup$
I tried to argument about it. I took it very seriously. But I got stucked in formal logic. See here please. math.stackexchange.com/questions/3284613/…
$endgroup$
– Danmat
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I tried to argument about it. I took it very seriously. But I got stucked in formal logic. See here please. math.stackexchange.com/questions/3284613/…
$endgroup$
– Danmat
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I tried to argument about it. I took it very seriously. But I got stucked in formal logic. See here please. math.stackexchange.com/questions/3284613/…
$endgroup$
– Danmat
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I tried to argument about it. I took it very seriously. But I got stucked in formal logic. See here please. math.stackexchange.com/questions/3284613/…
$endgroup$
– Danmat
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $p in X subset E$ open. So, there exists $r > 0$ such that $B(p, r) subset X$.
As $barA = E$, $p$ is adherent to $A$. Therefore $B(p,r) cap A neq emptyset$. Thus, there is $q in A$ and $q in B(p,r) subset X$, this is, $A cap X neq emptyset$
reciprocally, suppose it absurd that $barA neq E$. Therefore, there is an element $x in E$ such that $x not in barA$. Thus, $x in E - barA Rightarrow x in mboxint(E - A) subset E - A$. So, $B(x, varepsilon) cap A = emptyset$, absurd ! Therefore, $barA = E$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $p in X subset E$ open. So, there exists $r > 0$ such that $B(p, r) subset X$.
As $barA = E$, $p$ is adherent to $A$. Therefore $B(p,r) cap A neq emptyset$. Thus, there is $q in A$ and $q in B(p,r) subset X$, this is, $A cap X neq emptyset$
reciprocally, suppose it absurd that $barA neq E$. Therefore, there is an element $x in E$ such that $x not in barA$. Thus, $x in E - barA Rightarrow x in mboxint(E - A) subset E - A$. So, $B(x, varepsilon) cap A = emptyset$, absurd ! Therefore, $barA = E$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $p in X subset E$ open. So, there exists $r > 0$ such that $B(p, r) subset X$.
As $barA = E$, $p$ is adherent to $A$. Therefore $B(p,r) cap A neq emptyset$. Thus, there is $q in A$ and $q in B(p,r) subset X$, this is, $A cap X neq emptyset$
reciprocally, suppose it absurd that $barA neq E$. Therefore, there is an element $x in E$ such that $x not in barA$. Thus, $x in E - barA Rightarrow x in mboxint(E - A) subset E - A$. So, $B(x, varepsilon) cap A = emptyset$, absurd ! Therefore, $barA = E$.
$endgroup$
Let $p in X subset E$ open. So, there exists $r > 0$ such that $B(p, r) subset X$.
As $barA = E$, $p$ is adherent to $A$. Therefore $B(p,r) cap A neq emptyset$. Thus, there is $q in A$ and $q in B(p,r) subset X$, this is, $A cap X neq emptyset$
reciprocally, suppose it absurd that $barA neq E$. Therefore, there is an element $x in E$ such that $x not in barA$. Thus, $x in E - barA Rightarrow x in mboxint(E - A) subset E - A$. So, $B(x, varepsilon) cap A = emptyset$, absurd ! Therefore, $barA = E$.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Allan RamosAllan Ramos
1319 bronze badges
1319 bronze badges
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